Hello all. I don't know how many of you are familiar withoutabox, the electronic service that basically submits your film, after you go through an exhaustive process of entering all info about it, to film festivals for you (thus saving the time and effort of individually mailing out forms and even the actual DVD/tape sometimes), but I'm using it a lot to submit my new animated short film to festivals.

Withoutabox allows you to store an online version of the film, and simply pay to submit that way vs mailing out discs each time to a festival.

I want, therefore, a decent or even high quality online version of this short and am having a hell of a time gettng something decent.

The movie is (right now at least, some recent feedback is leaving me to consider shortening it) almost 13 minutes, 1080p (I suppose the online version could be 720 if that's what you guys recommend here), and entirely animated from Anime Studio Pro (think Flash if you're not familiar).

As an FCP/mac user, I'm instintually drawn towards QT formats, especially H264 and x264. After exhaustive testing though, I don't seem to be able to make a file using these that does not stutter/jerk throughout the movie, at least in QT player. You can see it skipping frames.

I would prefer, because I don't trust the humans to go through extra effort, for the movie to play perfectly in whatever program generally opens it (so a .mov should play fine in QT, AVI in whatever, etc.), instead of having to tell folks "open with VLC player, please", or something. Especially true for the competitive world of film fests.

All this being said, any ideas for solid reliable digital files? I don't think I have the ability to make FLVs with FCP or Compressor/any of the FCP suite, right?

Withoutabox won't take anything lager than 1280x720, so your 1080p will need to be downsized.

Here are their recommended specs:

We recommend the following settings to optimize video quality on the IMDb site:

* Size: Up to 2 GB file size. Most files should be substantially smaller, though.
* Length: A 2 GB file can usually accommodate a full feature film.
* Frame: Up to 1280px by 720px at 30 frames per second
* Format: Flash Video (Codec: Sorenson or VP6 codec) or Quicktime

I uploaded a 480x360 Quicktime Apple Motion JPEG, because I was in a huge hurry to meet the Sundance midnight deadline, and didn't have time to export my movie the way I wanted (long render because of filters).

Anyway, my export looked fine, but once IMDb recompressed it, it looked pretty crappy. I didn't have skipping issues with my export like you describe.

My advice is IF your film is short enough, export it in an uncompressed format like ProRes, and then submit it; hopefully their compression won't be able to screw up an uncompressed image too badly. The trick is to get your total export under 2GB, and ProRes files are huge. And unless you have some seriously fast upload bandwidth, it's going to take a looooong time to get your entire movie onto the IMDb server.

With a longer movie, you're simply going to have to experiment with differing codecs, and tweak the bitrate settings to bring the file size under 2GB. I'm not sure what your issue with h264 exporting is -- I've never had a problem with it, but I always export h264 using Compressor via FCP, and not FCP directly. Maybe you might try that if you already haven't.

Also, since you're exporting Animation, have you tried using the Apple Animation codec? It's also lossless. As nice as h264 is, it's still compressed.

Good luck!

Thanks. . .I didn't realize they had recommended specs/rules.


Here's the deal, movie is 13 minutes, though I've just created a shorter version that I might submit around and see if I have better acceptance luck with. That one's just over 11 minutes.

Tried the animation codec. Yes, it is lovely, but at 720 it was looking like it'd be 4 GB for the whole thing. So that's out.

Yeah, for some reason (and I had another DVI member test a sample) the H264 as well as x264 is very choppy. Maybe 'cause it's animation and not live action? Dunno.

Have not tried this MJEG thing - by the way. . .don't see motion jpeg under codec options. . .do you mean photo jpeg?

I've been toying with MP4 codec/.mov wrapper at various bit rates, and it seems like the way to go. This will create a 3-500 MB file for the whole film, pretty nice quality.

Have no way to do FLV, (as I said, unless there's a way to do it with the FCS2 suite).

All encoding done via compressor, by the way, from an FCP reference mov.

Thanks.

PS wish I had done this with my Sundance submission. I sent off the DVD, about ten days before the earliest deadline, did not arrive til 10/5. I'm out $50 and the film missed both deadlines (I gave up when I realized I was up against the late dl), so it's not even entered.

Yeah, I meant the Photo JPEG codec.

Sorry to hear about your Sundance misadventure. As soon I as discovered that I could upload my movie at the last minute, I was thrilled to have the extra time to work on it. (Slamdance late deadline is Oct. 29th!)

MP4 sounds like a good option. It's easily parsed by encoders, so no worries on that end. I wouldn't suggest FLV in any case -- too compressed. As I mentioned, IMDb (like YouTube) re-encodes your upload. So you're better off with the highest quality you can get on your end that meets their requirements.

Curious about the stuttering -- did you change the frame rate of the original movie on your export? Do the movies always stutter in the same place?

So let me ask you this. . .if they re-encode anyway, should I try to get as close to 2 GB as possible, knowing they'll dumb it down (and I'm guessing reduce file size) later? Leaving the mac on for a few days is not a big deal, I'm more worried about end users (i.e. fest judges/watchers/whoever) getting pissed.

Stuttering is just kind of throughout. It's more like skipping frames, and it's limited, it seems to the QT player. If I can open the thing in VLC (some h264/x264 files won't open in it!), it will play smoothly.

I've already sent off to Slamdance, but as always, I'm not optimistic.

Ok, tried some tests.

Prores- way too big

Photo jpeg med quality - looks good will be 1.3 GB for 11 minutes

Animation med quality - screwed up and made it SD 4:3 instead of 720p, but looks to be about 1.2 GB for the same length, even at that size. So I guess that's out.

I guess my thinking is, sure, they SAY that files should be "substantially smaller" than 2 GB unless it's a feature, but these are OUR BABIES! And if it's the only thing they're going to see, and they're using it to judge whether we're in the fest, we want to put our BEST face forward, right? So obviously we want the quality as high as possible.

I guess my thinking is, sure, they SAY that files should be "substantially smaller" than 2 GB unless it's a feature, but these are OUR BABIES! And if it's the only thing they're going to see, and they're using it to judge whether we're in the fest, we want to put our BEST face forward, right? So obviously we want the quality as high as possible.

Seriously. 2GB is nothing in the era of HD. And forcing filmmakers to compress the crap out of their work benefits nobody.

What happened to the MP4 version you were going to make?

I made it, have not proofed yet. But my point is that this 350 MB MP4 will not look as good as a Animation codec version. It looks okay, pretty decent in most places, though sometimes you can see artifacts. I just hope that's not going to count against me.

I made it, have not proofed yet. But my point is that this 350 MB MP4 will not look as good as a Animation codec version. It looks okay, pretty decent in most places, though sometimes you can see artifacts. I just hope that's not going to count against me.

You should be able to make some fantastic looking stuff with H264 as the Codec. Use what ever container you like (.mov .mp4 etc) and use AAC audio. Use the advanced features such as CABAC and 2 pass encoding and VBR and you should be good to go. I suggest using FFMPEG (free and open source) .

Here is a short I did with HDV and then compressed with FFMPEG into H264 video and AAC Audio.

File Info: 68MB, 720P 5 Minute duration
http://www.simplethoughtproductions.com/wp-content/uploads/SimpleShorts/IDignity/IDignity-HD_1628k_w1280.mp4

Same file via Flash Streaming:
http://www.simplethoughtproductions.com/wp-content/plugins/simple-flash-video/video.php?file=/wp-content/uploads/SimpleShorts/IDignity/IDignity-HD_1628k_w1280.mp4

Please note that this is 1280*720. You can go higher and make it 1080 but I have found most computers have trouble playing back 1080 material so I opted to use 720p for the time being.

As I said, 264 via compressor is creating jittery files that skip frames. Don't know why. . .not just my machine either. . .sent it to another DVi member and it's doing the same thing in his QT player. Hence the exploration of this MP4 thing.

As I said, 264 via compressor is creating jittery files that skip frames. Don't know why. . .not just my machine either. . .sent it to another DVi member and it's doing the same thing in his QT player. Hence the exploration of this MP4 thing.

Understood but are you seeing this jitteryness and skipped frames with my video? I found that FFMPEG just did a better job overall compared to Apple Compressor, Adobe Encoder, and Sorenson Squeeze.

My bad. Did not look. I will try software and see what happens.

Okay, I'm finding this FFMPEG stuff really confusing. Even going through their installation for Mac OS instructions, I still have no idea how to use this. As in, even installing and opening the program.

Okay, I'm finding this FFMPEG stuff really confusing. Even going through their installation for Mac OS instructions, I still have no idea how to use this. As in, even installing and opening the program.

Hmm... for once it isn't easier on the mac... go figure. It is a command line tool so there isn't anything pretty about it but let me see what I can figure out on my mac and Ill see if I can get it compiled and sent to you with an example to run in terminal. Once you have the command all you really do is tell it where your video is and it encodes as fast as possible. No bells, no whistles just good compression.

I have to do an 18 min film for this soon from a pro res HQ 1920x1080i 25np master.

I will try it at H264 apple TV level first 1280x720p 5mbs and if that doesn't fit within the 2gb limit I will go to 1280x720p at 1.5mbs.

The film was shot on AVC Intra 100 10 bit 4.2.2 so it will be interesting to see the final quality.

That's the end of me, then. I tried my damndest to help the esteemed Mr. Bass with his compression issues, but after digging through everything I know about video encoding and having reality spit it all back in my face as useless, I'm drained of ideas. I've learned so much about this stuff over the past couple of years, and I know an order of magnitude more than I ever used to, but for all the success I've had working on my Windows machine, with no Mac experience I'm in no position to effectively diagnose the problem here. I'll just have to drop my ego and admit defeat.

Josh, I'm sorry I couldn't get to the bottom of this.

But while I'm here, Josh (the other one), does this:

... such as CABAC ...

mean that Quicktime decodes CABAC in H.264? I thought that was a problem. Weighted prediction, 8x8dct, CABAC, are these only problems for QT on Windows? I could have sworn those were verboten across the board for targeting Quicktime playback.

But while I'm here, Josh (the other one), does this:

mean that Quicktime decodes CABAC in H.264? I thought that was a problem. Weighted prediction, 8x8dct, CABAC, are these only problems for QT on Windows? I could have sworn those were verboten across the board for targeting Quicktime playback.

Well to be honest I am not aware of any issue. I have been using Windows 7 for some time and it supports h264 out of the box so I never bothered to put quicktime on my system. I also almost always deliver my video via Flash Streaming as well. With that being said it should be supported without much issue. The main thing to realize is when you use these advanced features you are asking more from the viewers CPU (or graphics card possibly) which is why I opted to use some advanced features but leave it @ 720P resolution. Also note that enabling such features will disable support with the ipods and such most of the time if the resolution doesn't.

I managed to get a version of FFMPEG compiled that is about 10MB. If anyone wants I can post it on my server and provide a link to download it.

I too have a film on WAB ( and last minute submission to Sundance ), which looked great before the upload but the online version looks bad. I also uploaded a trailer to IMDB - it also looks like crap.

I think it is the recompress and we're stuck with it. Does anybody have a movie on WAB that they are happy with?

I think my future entries will be done with a DVD.

I think it is the recompress and we're stuck with it. Does anybody have a movie on WAB that they are happy with?


Can you reach out to the company to ask if they re-encode even if you meet their guidelines? Sometimes it is possible to encode your video so it meets their requirements (Not the recommended encodes but what they are going to re-encode to) and they will simply post it without re-encoding allowing you to get the best quality possible. Not all systems will do this though.

-Josh C.

the best part is paying $50+ to have someone watch, judge and probably reject you (in my experience) based solely on that crappy online version. Good times.

Hate to break the news, but customer service died a long time ago.

I have contacted WAB with a simple question and received no reply on that, so I see no use in asking about something as technical as a codec or asking for some sort of special consideration. So in the future I will just burn a DVD and mail it.

After all, let's be real, I feel I have a better chance of being struck by lightening than being selected for a slot at Sundance. They say that all films are watched, but how do you manage that with 10,000+ entries? I guess submitting is like gambling, you get a bit of rush until you know you're not a winner.

Unless you're one of the elites who doesn't have to submit AT ALL and is just "in" cause you feel like it.

I'm all for DVD, but I'm trying to submit to 1 fest a week, and sometimes the deadlines pile up too fast. Hence, instant online upload.

I think it is the recompress and we're stuck with it. Does anybody have a movie on WAB that they are happy with?

And this is the essence of the problem. No matter what we do on our end, we're still at the mercy of WAB's crap encoding. Worse, we have no idea what their encoder might prefer -- having dealt a lot with encoding issues, I know that there are dozens of variables that go into good encoding, so the more you know about the kind of input their encoder needs, the better off you are.

For now, their upload guidelines are as bad as most sites, and you just have to take a stab at it and see what happens. I suggest that we all keep complaining until they change something; although, their online suggestion form also seems not to work well (no response when I did it), and customer service appears to be nonexistent. So when I say complain, I mean that you should complain directly to festivals to improve the WAB service -- it's still a good idea, but it's very half-assed right now.

By the way, it's very easy to reach the Sundance office in LA. Phone number's on their site, and they always answer during biz hours. They have been very helpful.

I found this recent post on the WAB forum.

https://boards.withoutabox.com/showthread.php?t=49975

The gist of it is this:

---
So...I emailed imdb.com, and was told there are no longer have resolution limitations, as long as the file is under 2mb, all should be fine.
---

The poster uploaded a 720 x 480 file, bigger than posted IMDb guidelines, and it supposedly looked better. I cannot find any other upload guidelines other than what I already posted here.

I just uploaded a new video to WAB. 480x360, H.264. This looked much better than that last, and H.264 exports really, really fast.

But there's so much I hate about WAB's submission process that wrote them a long e-mail (both to WAB and to IMDb). Their system is grossly inconvenient when you are uploading works in progress that you want to change.

I uploaded an early rough cut to enter into Sundance. Also, I bought a discount package for submissions, which gives you $5 off every festival entry fee. Turns out that this discount package ONLY APPLIES TO ONE FILM. Since you can only attach one film to one project, there's no way to submit the next working version of your movie without creating an entirely new project. Once you've uploaded a new cut to a new project (and filled out the huge submission info form AGAIN), you can't use your submission discount when submitting a film in the new project!

I'm really starting to resent WAB. A great idea poorly executed is as bad as a terrible idea. The design flaws in their site are utterly glaring, and only increase the anxiety around festival submissions. If you can avoid submitting through the WAB site, do so -- you'll save yourself a lot of grief.

One question about compressing my film for the screener:
My film is 24fps. If I compress it to 30fps, will that change the look of it? I prefer the feel of 24fps. Can I upload it as 24fps? They're recommendation is 30fps.