I'm preparing to shoot a short film, and I know the conventional wisdom is to use an external recorder for audio when shooting with one of the video DSLRs, but this is a low/no budget production, and neither myself nor the director has access to such a device, we won't be purchasing one any time soon.

The options are in camera audio on the 5D, or using my XL2 as an audio recorder (my original plan).

reading on here, I see most people say recording dialogue is okay with the 5D, despite it's high pass filter.

I've been doing some testing, and am not pleased with the results. Before I give up and go to the XL2, I want to make sure I'm doing this right.

So 5D mic input is mic level, right?

So I'm running an AKG blueline hypercardioid into an FP33, coming out mic level via an XLR to 1/8" adapter cable to the 5D. I run tone from the FP33, setting master on the FP33 so the tone reads 0 on its meter. I then set the camera's meter exactly halfway (I'm guessing here, but if the highest notch on the meter is 0, and the lowest -40, exactly between them should be -20, right?). This seems like it should be the proper gain structure ( to me, anyway. . .unless something I did above is wrong), but when I did a test recording on the camera, with peaks about -10, the resulting recording sounds pretty hissy. . .FCPs meter tells me the hiss level is about -36. That is way loud.

So, did I set something up here wrong, or is this just how it is on the 5D?

Josh,
I am not sure what your particular problem is in getting the recording on the 5D to sound decent but you should try recording the signal a little hotter than midway on the inputs and see if that helps your gain structure on the camera and then run the mixer levels a little lower to see if that helps as well.
I did a shoot a few months ago using a 5D with a mixer on mic level and back up recording to a zoom and the editor said there was very little difference in the quality (which he was happy with) of the camera tracks and the recorder tracks with the recorder winning by being a bit warmer on the low end.

I ran TONE at about halfway on the camera's meters (what I assumed to be -20, the way you would do it on a proper camcorder), but when actually recording peaks were about -12 to -10.

I ran TONE at about halfway on the camera's meters (what I assumed to be -20, the way you would do it on a proper camcorder), but when actually recording peaks were about -12 to -10.

That's about what you'd expect. Due to the nature of the mathematics of sine waves, a given level tone will read the same whether the meter is peak reading or averaging. Real-world sound such as speech, OTOH, reading a given level on an averaging meter would read 8 to 10 dB higher on a peak-reading meter. So sending tone reading 0VU on the mixer to the camera, adjusting the camera input level so the tone reads -20 dBFS on the camera meter means that speech reading 0VU on the mixer's averaging meters will read about -12 dBFS on the camera's. You could set the camera input higher but remember you have to avoid peaks ever hitting 0 on the camera meter at any cost.

Hi Josh,
you may find some useful information at this link.Good luck.
Neil

Audio Performance of Canon 5D Mark II Camera|Sound Notes|Sound Devices, LLC (http://www.sounddevices.com/notes/cameras/5dii-audio-performance/#more-1282)

Ha, sorry!! this one :Audio Performance of Canon 5D Mark II Camera|Sound Notes|Sound Devices, LLC (http://www.sounddevices.com/notes/cameras/5dii-audio-performance/#more-1282)

Okay, looks like that link advises simply running camera's audio at its absolute lowest setting, one click away from totally off.

They then say set mixer's limiters to just below 0 dBFS.

Don't really have this option on an FP33 (I think the factory limiter settings are close to 1 or 3 db below its max --- +20 by default)

So then you don't line up tone at all? Just set mixer master to 0 and adjust individual mixer channel pots 'til it reads at -12/10 for peaks on cam meters?

"So then you don't line up tone at all? Just set mixer master to 0 and adjust individual mixer channel pots 'til it reads at -12/10 for peaks on cam meters?"

Yes,that seems to be what they are saying. I don't own an SD mixer and I have not tryed to record direct to the 5D so I can"t say for sure if it will work.Id say its worth doing some tests using the above method and your own mixer.As I understand it the idea is to use more of the the mixer gain and less of the camera gain.

Good luck,Neil
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I will try it. Still wondering if tape outs (-10) are too powerful for 5D, if it HAS to be mic level.

before you say you can't afford even a used zoom h4n.... then you probably can't afford to feed the crew or talent, pay for gas, props, locations, a drive to hold the media, another drive to back it up. given all that it takes to do something like this, doing audio poorly will mean just one thing - either it will kill the project because no one will be able to deal with ADR, it will die because its audio is unusuable, or there will be so much more extra work after the fact people will just quit.

put another way, for every $1 you save doing things the wrong way in production, expect it will cost $5-$10X each dollar saved to fix it in post, if it can be fixed. finding a couple hundred for a modest recorder needs to be on your list, and really there isn't any way around it.

I appreciate that, but be that as it may, it's still not gonna happen.

...I run tone from the FP33, setting master on the FP33 so the tone reads 0 on its meter. I then set the camera's meter exactly halfway (I'm guessing here, but if the highest notch on the meter is 0, and the lowest -40, exactly between them should be -20, right?). This seems like it should be the proper gain structure ( to me, anyway. . .unless something I did above is wrong), but when I did a test recording on the camera, with peaks about -10, the resulting recording sounds pretty hissy. . .FCPs meter tells me the hiss level is about -36. That is way loud.

So, did I set something up here wrong, or is this just how it is on the 5D?
Remember that the decibel scale is logarithmic, not linear. The -20dBFS point is not halfway between the -40 dBFS and 0 points, it's closer to about 1/3 the way down from zero.

Ah! I know in practice it's not linear, but some meters don't reflect that. Good to know. If that SD article is right, though, it sadly doesn't matter.

I appreciate that, but be that as it may, it's still not gonna happen. I don't get it. If there budget isn't there to shoot it right, why not defer production a little bit and build the budget to the level necessary to do the job right rather than proceeding to waste the time and what budget you do have on a film that'll sound so bad no one will want to watch it? Doesn't seem like a good use of time and resources to me.

Frankly, not be able to monitor the actual recording as it is going to camera, is a problem for you. With Magic Lantern, there is a resolution to that, but at this point, it does not work with the latest version of the camera's firmware. If you have firmware 2.04 still in camera, it will.

Thus, it might be just as easy to record to the XL2, via a method you are familiar with, then line up the sound in post. To do that, set the camera sound on Auto Gain and record through the camera mic for a tract that can be used to match the sound.

Plural Eyes has a 30 day trial that you can use to line match you XL2 sound with your footage in common NLE's.

Depending on your NLE, look at Dual Eyes, from the same manufacturer, as it is stand alone, and can batch process and actually end up with a file that has the separately recorded should attached to it.

Yes, I think XL2 is the way to go. 5D is just proving to be too much of a pain. Plus, I can feed XL2 line level through it's RCA audio inputs (yes I swear it can be done) with a pad cause real line level is too much for them.

As for the budget thing, here's the deal.

It is a 0 budget movie. There will be food provided, but everything else, gear, locations, people, all volunteers/free/loans. I happen to own lights and audio gear and an XL2, which was what were going to use when a 5D became available for "borrowment". However, the person to whom this camera belongs is NOT a videographer, and does not own a zoom H4ns, etc.

So it is what it is.

...As for the budget thing, here's the deal.

It is a 0 budget movie. There will be food provided, but everything else, gear, locations, people, all volunteers/free/loans. I happen to own lights and audio gear and an XL2, which was what were going to use when a 5D became available for "borrowment". However, the person to whom this camera belongs is NOT a videographer, and does not own a zoom H4ns, etc.

So it is what it is.
What does it matter if it's the person who owns the DSLR who also owns the recorder or not? Sounds like you're into video production for the long haul and sooner or later you're going to need to gear up with professional kit. Perfect opportunity to start acquiring it in bits and pieces. Guess I'm just weird but I figure if you can't do the job properly you might as well not have done it at all.

We can around in around in this, but the main thing is this is a no-budget, volunteer based project. Someone spending money on something, specifically for said project, they may never use again is pointless. If there was absolutely no way to get decent audio and shoot with the 5D, we'd abandon it. As it is, I think the XL2 will suffice as an audio recorder, even if 16 bit. Smarter people with fewer resources have gotten by with less.

Ok gang. Looks like another possible option will be available.

Director is going to buy a mac (laptop, I think).

What do you think of recording audio into an Apogee Duet audio interface then into the computer? This should give us 24 bit sound.

Are there free apps for Mac that allow you record like this? I use logic with the interface for this stuff, specifically to get the 24 bit recording.

Also, 96k or 48?

Anyone tried this? Any issues?

I'm pretty sure the freeware program "Audacity" is available for Mac as well as Windows. Give their website a visit. It's an excellent DAW. Also you can download BoomRecorder from VOSGAMES - Boom Recorder (http://www.vosgames.nl/products/BoomRecorder/) - it's not free but does have a 30 day free trial.. Boom Recorder is a fully professional film location recording app for the Mac.

There's no need to use a 96kHz sample rate ... doesn't hurt anything but doesn't help either. The video standard is 48kHz. 24bit can give you an improved noise figure if you're going to be mixing a lot of digital sources or doing a lot of post-production processing but for the majority of video work 48kHz/16bit is just fine.

wrong tool for the job.

do you know when to walk away, and when to run ? this is when to run.

you (he) will spend MORE, WAY MORE for the wrong tools, then the right ones. think of editing on a 2 core laptop with h264 ? think again. you want a 4 / 8 core + machine.

let see, laptop + CS5 ( you WANT native editing ) + audio interface = $5k+, but you can't get $200-$300 for a used h4n which will be much easier to work with.

ok, try this - hand held shot, moving thru rooms. zoom on boom op = easy. boom op + wireless mic ( no one has ) + pre amp ( no one has ) to receiver on mac where some one should put it in record = silly hard complicated.

let this project go. there will be others. this is a train wreck in the making.... really run away fast now.