Anyone have a set of these? http://cgi.ebay.com/JieTu-3-650W-Fresnel-Tungsten-Video-Studio-Light-Arri-/120663675378?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c181d91f2

I'm looking to get a light kit. Right now I have a 5 point flurorescent kit, but I need to get some controllable tungstens. Is it bad to have all fresnels? I'm sure I'll have to add to this kit, but would it be a good place to start?

Patrick.


Those lights appear similar to if not the same source build as other lights discussed here :-

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/photon-management/488624-cheap-fresnels.html


and also here :-

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/photon-management/471001-steven-studio-650-watt-fresnel-lights.html


Please note. I am not promoting these particular items but have posted some unauthorised handling notes to hopefully assist members here because no documentation accompanies these lights.

It's up to you and your conscience (and your videography).

If you would buy a pirate DVD or CD, or wear a fake Rolex, then these are the lights for you.

Bear in mind though that, for not much more, you could get proper Ianiro Solaris kits or top condition secondhand Arris.

If you're an amateur enthusiast, then it's a cheap way of using kit similar to professional stuff. If you're a professional, it's a way of having your peers look down on you with pity.

Robin.


"If you're an amateur enthusiast, then it's a cheap way of using kit similar to professional stuff. If you're a professional, it's a way of having your peers look down on you with pity."

Look down then upon the pitious creature called "ol' Bob" then.

Collectively here a while back we got into a bit of a philosophical about the cheap emulations of ARRI lights etc., and speculated whether the cheaper lights were generating their own market because of affordability.

Would research suggest that the marketplace of the genuine products was being seriously hurt and original buyers of the cheaper lights maybe then moving on to ARRI etc.. when they could afford the quality and robustness of the genuine article?

Calm down Bob, it's only an opinion.

I don't know a single colleague who would go on a paying job with a fake Arri. Maybe it's different in Oz, I don't know because I've never worked there but, certainly on the "London Circuit", turning up on location with a fake Arri would be like going to a party with a fake Rolex. Okay for a laugh but not good practice for a jobbing cameraman.

I read the other thread, how the fakes have issues with the casting , the focussing and the electrics, all of which have to be addressed before they can be used professionally. If you can deal with that on a job, fine. I can't. If you can accept that the barn doors fall of after a couple of weeks, fine. Or that they have to be tightened with a screwdriver every time you move them, fine. I can't be doing with that.
If you use all the equipment by yourself, you know that you mustn't adjust a particular unit because it blows the bulb but if you're working with others, you can't take that risk. If your insurance will cover you when it goes wrong and damages or injures someone, fine. However, if you get a visit on location by a Health and Safety rep, be prepared to rapidly hire some proper kit or pack up and go home. If you get zapped by an inspector and it hasn't got the "CE" mark... you could end up with a fine.

It's up to you and your conscience Bob, I'm not telling you not to do anything or to act like I do. Just pointing out that a fake is a fake. But I tell you now, if you turn up for a paid broadcast job in the UK and took out some home-made kit, the colleagues would treat you with more respect than if you bought out a fake Arri.
As you pointed out, they would look down on you with pity, sorry.

In my opinion, for enthusiasts, semi-pros and beginners, it's an excellent way to learn and a great way for video clubs and amateur groups to get a lighting kit on the cheap. As a professional however, which is what the OP is aiming at, in the long term, you spend more than you save. A second hand Arri, Ianiro or Desisti will last much longer than a Chinese fake, be safer, and hold its resale value.

Pirate DVDs, copied CDs, cracked software, fake Rolexes, fake Arris. All the same.

It's up to each individual how they ease their conscience but it's bad practice for a full-time professional to use fake equipment.

I think we need to get out of the habit of assuming that because something is less expensive and manufactured in China it is inferior. In my (much) younger days this was how Japanese goods were considered and yet it was a Japanese company that pretty much got most of us to where we are today in this business.

The build and design quality of Chinese goods is improving and very quickly. No denying there's still a lot of rubbish being manufactured there but both the government and the local demand for quality is driving the sub standard manufacturers out of business. We've already handed them the know how to build better products. Because many of the plants are greenfield they can leap frog the rest of the world.

The other factor not to be overlooked is the Chinese know how to do business. Pretty much if it's made in China I can buy it on eBay and without some middleman markup. Their customer service is generally exemplary. My emails get answered, they're open to doing deals on volume purchases and they never seem to be closed.

You don't sell Chinese products by any chance do you?

Comparing pirated dvd's to knockoff lights isn't fair. A pirated DVD is illegal. It is stolen material...a direct copy of the source. It's not like this light company is stealing ARRI lights and putting their logo on them. They just studied the design and tried to replicate it. That'd be like watching a movie and then writing a similar storyline. Happens all the time.

As far as peers looking down on you...I'm pretty much a one man crew. I rarely run into peers, and clients generally don't know what ARRI is. Granted, showing up with a homemade plywood track dolly would look bad, but these lights at least look like the real deal. I'm not in any way defending this company, I just want to know if anyone has any experience with them. I don't mind paying more for quality, but if there's no difference then I'd rather spend less.

I'm of the opinion that the end result is all that matters. As mentioned, my clients don't know (and shouldn't be expected to) what the different styles and brands of lights are.
I do take apart any Chinese lights I acquire to make sure the wiring looks good and that the proper fuses are in place. If you know what to look for, it's just good practice.

To state that peers "look down at you" is just ridiculous. That's like saying if I put my cheap knockoff Strat in a really good guitar players hands it would bring him down and he wouldn't be as well repected. Since I've done that, it just doesnt work that way! Even the tone and nuances translate!

Put any light source in the hands of a skilled operator and it can look great. May not be as easy but that's the trade off. Who gives a crap what others think of the tools used to get results that keep clients happy and coming back!

I do 2-3 shoots a week and bunches of green screen work with cheap lights and guess what, never had a complaint, or a problem with the lights for that matter.

And for the record, I wear a Casio watch, wear Faded Glory $9 jeans, drive a 5 year old SUV and made my own teleprompter for $300 including all hardware, monitor, and run it from a 5 year old MacBook!
Maybe that's why I turn a good profit every year!

For someone with cheap taste in clothing, you have some nice camera equipment lol. I feel ya on the music thing. I'm a lifelong multi-instrumentalist musician. I'm not a big gear junkie. I have good gear. It's not the best, but it doesn't matter. I make it work for me. My friend is more of a hobbyist, but has really expensive stuff. Right now he's taking theory lessons from me. He keeps buying things and switching things and modding things looking for this elusive perfect tone, but it's really up to the player.

btw, I see you're in Mesa. My electric guitar amp is a Mesa Boogie Lonestar 2x12 =)

Yes...yes I do have some nice camera gear! Ha ha! And guess what, i didn't finance a single piece!
I'm still a gear hound at heart but there's stuff that's important to how I get a quality picture and stuff that can be a couple notches down.
I have 3 local companies that hire me specifically for the cameras and I go to their studios and use their lighting.
Only one of them uses "pro-level" lights yet I get the same results out of all three.
I don't claim to be a great cameraman or lighting guy but I'm making money so I must be doing something right.

On the music front as an analogy, I used to be a professional trumpet player and the best trick I used to show students who complained about their cheap horns was to pick theirs up (not even change the mouthpiece...eeeeewwwwwww!) and rip a bunch of insane riffs and some slower melodic stuff to show there wasn't a problem with the instrument. I'd even let them use my horn which was nice but nothing special to illustrate further. Good motivation to practice more! (learned that trick from one of my teachers who did it to me when I was learning on a hand-me-down trumpet while all my friends had the brand new ones!)

Love Mesa Boogie but cant seem to part with my old 15 watt all-tube Ampeg!

I play trumpet, too. Roy Lawler custom. Nothing special. I saw Arturo a few months ago for the 3rd time. Stunning.

The music analogy is an apropos one but as musicians (as I am also) I think you will also appreciate that once one has had enough experience and has grown into one's craft, the deficiencies in one's instrument become much more apparent and frustrating, to the point where an upgrade becomes mandatory if one is to be able to continue to grow. While the nuances of a fine musical instrument are more specific than one lighting instrument to the next, you know when a tool is right for you and when it is a source of frustration. When a component doesn't fit quite right and needs coaxing, when screws keep coming loose or adjustment knobs stick or heads sag in their yokes--all of these things can become major irritants over time. At first one is pleased enough to have saved the money and all is fine. But down the line you may end up using better gear and becoming aware of the difference, and that will always be in the back of your head as you return to the compromised gear. Over time that little sense can grow in your head and become more and more of a frustration. You never want your gear to restrict you, to slow you down, to divert your energy away from the creative process.

It should be noted that occasionally a 3rd party manufacturer will come along and create a new variation on an established product that is actually preferable in some ways (and may even be cheaper to boot). That may seem like a win-win, and if it is personally owned gear, it probably will be. However it can create other issues down the road if you begin to work with other crew people with your gear, if it is not industry standard. Case in point: years ago I was considering buying a Diva light and I was exposed to a little-known unit called the Gyoury that used similar tubes but was designed as a highly configurable system where the tubes could be used not just in a double housing like the Diva, but placed into a single housing, used bare, mounted into a China ball, mounted to a visor and so on; plus the ballast could be remoted, making the dimmer knob accessible, and the tubes were quick changable from 3200 to 5600. Great units and I got a lot of use out of them.

However, every job I took them on I had to run my electrics through a quick tutorial, not the least of which was how to pack everything back into the case, which took a certain amount of time and energy. And now that I am about to sell them (as I'm investing more into LED's), my resale will surely be lower than the equivalent Diva as they don't have the brand recognition.

In my opinion one is better off buying used Arri's from a reputable source than unknown brand copycat units--Arri's are workhorses and built to last and you may own them long after your current camera is considered obsolete (and maybe a few cameras to come). It is true that tungsten units are finally being challenged by newer technologies--it seems likely that even Arri will move to LED versions of their workhorses at some point--but you can still get years of service out of these heads regardless of what the state-of-the-art represents.

Great points Charles.
I've also sold musical instruments and would never recommend a beginner get the cheapest they could find. Better to find a mid-level that plays great. That way the interest level stays high as the instrument won't hold them back. I think that's the point we are trying to make here. The kit in question isn't cheap from a monetary standard but also doesn't look like a Home Depot light.

As things seem to be shifting from tungsten to fluorescent and LED in the small production market, I think my money will be better spent on some decent fixtures in those styles. I know it's a good idea to have a blend of all the styles of lights in my arsenal and since my tungstens aren't broken (after several years) I just don't see the reason to upgrade.
One of my big priorities is reduction of heat and power consumption during shoots. Here in Phoenix I think everyone in the video biz would love to do the same. And I have seen Arri's led fresnels but as expected, they're not cheap!

...Arri's are workhorses and built to last ...

That right there is why the China-produced lights are less expensive. The Arri's will travel better and hold up much longer than the less expensive copies. You can still do great work with the copies, but you definitely need to be more careful with them.

Personally, I'd have no problem buying cheap lights if that's what I needed and all I could afford. Of course, I'd prefer to replace them with more durable units as soon as I could.

As far as clients go: as long as you don't show up with yellow "hardware store" work lights, they're impressed. As much as we hate to admit it, appearances go a long way.

there an old saying that goes like this: buy the best and you only cry once.

There are always trade-offs in choosing between cheaper and more expensive models. With respectable names like Arri, Ianiro, Desisti, est, the units hold their resale value. Buy used, wait to buy used lights in excellent condition, take good care of them, and, when you are ready to upgrade in a year or four, you'll probably get your money back.

However, you can save money and buy on the cheap now. The trade-off but immediate savings is low resale value, reduced ability to rent out your kit, and scarce replacement parts/service.

The questions are: is this a short-term or a long term investment & what type of worlk environment are these being used in?

Cheers

Let's be honest - the only performance critical aspects of a Fresnel of any make is simply glass quality and reflector efficiency. The other elements get in the way and annoy - like jerky or jamming beam angle adjustment, or stripping the threads on the thumblocks trying to stop them drooping with the barn doors adding more weight than a fibre washer can manage. If the light coming out is bright enough and soft enough most casual users are happy. I've got some Ianiro redheads I've had for years, and a few of these Chinese Arri copies - and in 12 months, the kind of work I do has meant the redheads never came out of the case and the Fresnels got used twice. Finance wise, spending 4 times the amount on real Arris just would have been silly. The annoying features the copies have for two uses can be ignored. If I was using them every day, then these features would be sufficient to justify quality real ones.

I reckon with tungstens I'd go ahead and drop the money on brand name fixtures. However, since i opted to go with all hmi/cdm sources, it really changes the game for me. They are so expensive it requires a whole different level of commitment.

I wanted all daylight fixtures with 4 modest fresnel sources, 1 punchier fresnel, a "diva", a pair of led panels and then later wanted a pair of 2 bulb 2' fluoros for lighting greenscreens in the field.

Here is the brand name option:

arri 125w hmi with ballast (not including bulb) $2859 (x4)
arri 125w hmi bulb $239 (x4)
arri 575w hmi with ballast (not including bulb) $5679
diva 400 $1379
diva 201 $757 (x2)
litepanel led $1865 (x2)

So thats around $24,600 for that light kit, not including shipping.

I chose cool lights. They are the price of chinese stuff but with a bit of creativity and attention put in the middle.

I paid less than this, since i was an "early adopter", but this is todays price:

cool lights 150 cdm with ballast and bulb $459 (x4)
cool lights 575 with ballast $2100
cool lights 455p $425
cool lights 255p $275 (x2)
2x cool lights led 600 (dimmable) $449 (x2)

$5800 plus shipping. (i paid less than 5k including shipping when the units were still being tweaked)

My favorite fixture is the cdm 150s... $459 with bulbs... vs $239 for JUST an arri bulb. Its not nearly as smooth of a wash as an arri, in fact it can be a bit spotty depending on how its used. I paid $399 each, vs $3,000 for a comparable arri with bulb, so that spottiness needs to be a serious issue or a critical part of your career to make the financial jump. I can stomach paying 2x and sometimes 3x for a "brand", but 7x - 8x... ouch.

I would never argue them to be the same build quality... but then, neither would Richard. He cut corners where he thought it made sense and created a whole new tier of "prosumer" daylight sources.

Everybody is different, and lots of people would cough up blood at spending $5800. If i was a professional gaffer, I'd probably look at $24k differently than a "video guy" would. I thought $5800 made sense as an investment so I could get out from under the thumb of the few people who own lights on this island. I don't want to be a rental house, I just wanted a nice set of tools in my truck whether i was shooting my own piece or helping somebody else out.

At $24k, i'd basically have had to market and rent and make sure the gear is earning its keep. at $5k... there's a lot less pressure. 1/4 to 1/5 the pressure, i suppose. For me it crossed a line where I could afford to buy them without a loan, which changed the urgency of paying them off dramatically. If you add to that the exchange rate was close to 2:1 when i bought... that put the arri/kino kit at closer to $45,000nz. The pay rate here isnt much higher than in the states, so if you make $40/hour in the u.s, you probably would make about $40nz/hour here.. so thats a very real $45,000 pricetag.

Cool lights are a "knockoff" of arri as much as windows is a "knockoff" of macos or the nokio os is a "knockoff" of palm. There are similarities, but many of them are industry standards now. Everybody has extruded bodies of some kind with cast metal caps that screw in to the extrusion. The clones that look like the new arri design seem to be the ones trying to associate with arri. Cool lights fluoros and leds are more different than the same. The parts that are the same are themselves industry standard parts and rarely made by the light manufacturer. (bulbs, sockets, etc).

I don't mind the argument that if you are "a serious professional" you should only buy brand names. I don't always agree... and every brand name was a no-name at some point and *somebody* had to buy them first. However, the argument that its tantamount to piracy is a bit silly. Is Eschelon Conspiracy an homage to the movie wargames, a pirated ripoff or just a hack film using hollywood standard tools?

I personally would rather show up with a huge compliment of fixtures than one or two with brand logos on them. I'd also rather treat my gear a bit more gingerly in exchange for having more light options.

But thats me, and certainly doesn't apply to anyone else.

Other advantages:

If somebody smashes one of my cdms, i'm 1/10th as likely to kill them as if i had an arri

if somebody steals one of my cdms, i'm 1/10th as likely to kill myself.

hehe.

Robin.


You were probably victim to my rather incompetent attempt at some self-deprecating humour. Some haste in typing my message added to the impression I was becoming agitated I think. I am actually quite mellow.

I agree with you on the genuine article versus the emulations. It could the difference between feeling compelled to check lamphouse fasteners between each job because they might loosen after a few thermal cycles, or secure them with loctite or replace them with something differerent that ARRI uses.

Or it may come down to enhancements like heat-resistant ceramic bushes to slide on dry rails instead of bare holes punched out of sheetmetal, which might begin to squeal and chatter when the grease dries off.

The flags on all the lights have remained secure through thermal cycles and have so far been strong enough. The little release latches seem to get tight and baulky but it could be a case of my own incompetence too.

Confidence in long-established quality and performance reputation is the premium ARRI, Desisti, et al are justified in charging for.

Here's the rub though. I got legged over bigtime, attempting to buy some older used lamps of a reputable brand from an eBay seller.

I think I might have some concerns about a reputable brand lamp which comes on the used market after a lifetime of maybe being flogged near to death by who knows and like a second-hand car, given a clean and paint before sale to make it go faster. The same vigilence and checking for defects is desirable. Chances of finding something needing replacement are pretty good.

So far, the big-ticket item, a 1.2K HMI has about trouble-free 30 hours up on it now. There was no way I could have afforded the genuine ARRI equivalent new and used examples were not exactly prolific. For the infrequent usage I put it to, it is fine.

Parts support? I broke a fresnel glass on a 650watt fresnel. A replacement was available and was readily supplied. The only issue is you have to order a replacement or buy in your own reserve parts stock from the Chinese vendor because you the importer are the local service agent and yourself the client.


Whether new cloned product or secondhand used genuine "brand" product, there is identical responsibility for the new owner to have the lights checked for safety issues before turning them to work. The magic CE logo does not guarantee that the light itself remains capable of meeting the claimed standards during its entire lifetime of use, only that the registered design does. The "brand" appliance itself may have already endured far longer than its designers even envisaged.

Hobbs meters can be changed out, maybe even reset for all I know. Non-compliant replacement parts may have been subsituted during a repair/maintenance.

I don't resell the Chinese lamps. I just use them. I don't think Bob Grant resells them either.

My point was (and is) aimed at those who earn money from videography...

There is plenty of cheap lighting out there. If you can't afford an Arri (or can't justify the cost) then you can get a Ianiro Solaris, if that's still too expensive, then get a Desisti, and so on.

The respectable firms have R&D departments. They design their own lamps (although I dare say that they adapt ideas from their competitors) and innovate constantly. The chinese fakers simply buy an Arri (or Ianiro, or KinoFlo) and copy it.

This is damaging our industry. At IBC last year in the conference, two of the established lighting manufacturers stated that they would not be developing new technology until the problem of fakes was dealt with. You can't blame them. Why develop something, only to make a loss as it gets copied and cloned?
The traditional Fresnel manufacturers (Arri, Ianiro, Desisti, Mole Richardson, Photon Beard) are all making workers redundant (according to Lighting Technology magazine) because their sales of traditional units have slumped so badly. That's not only bad news for Germany, Italy, the UK and the USA but bad news for professionals generally.
KinoFlo in Europe is having serious problems with chinese fakes being sold as originals. In today's economic climate anything which endangers firms like KinoFlo endangers the whole economy.

To say that people buy a copy and then "upgrade" to an original is rubbish. Once in a blue moon maybe. To use the music analogy, the person who buys a pirate copy of a CD at a market doesn't go out the next day and buy the original from a shop.

I have no issue with cheap lighting units. Nor do I blame amateurs and enthusiasts from succumbing to the lure of a fake. I just firmly believe that anyone who earns money from lighting (including videographers) shouldn't buy fakes.

The safety, reliability and legal issues are more icing on the cake.

Robin.


Thanks for making us right on the real facts.

Sadly then, history is repeating itself. The initially very cheap imports of consumer appliances and whitegoods shut our domestic appliance industry down or local iconic brands began buying in offshore OEM and re-badging. Either way, jobs are exported.

Over here, it is muchly moot as production equipment is imported. Our industry is too small to sustain a manufacturing base here. But in other areas we have moved from being largely self-sufficient in the basic needs to not being able to clothe ourselves or fit out our houses.

This extends to our military forces. Governments need a good smack with a big stick, when our airforce on a public military parade are reduced to walking out of the soles of their boots in public due to our local industry having been closed down and shittty substitutes given to our forces.

There are some essential industries which should be subsidised at baseline by import tariffs at least to ensure the intellectual property, industrial culture and skillsets are not lost. Our governments are too dumb to see the longterm agenda of the major emerging economy, or too scared already or have been bought off.

And yes, by buying in a cheap import, I am part of the problem, even if the product type is not made here.

My point was (and is) aimed at those who earn money from videography...

To say that people buy a copy and then "upgrade" to an original is rubbish. Once in a blue moon maybe. To use the music analogy, the person who buys a pirate copy of a CD at a market doesn't go out the next day and buy the original from a shop.


Thats not really an apt analogy. I bought "britek" lights and when they weren't reliable, i upgraded to cool lights. Had cool lights been unreliable, i would have then probably looked at arri. The analogy would be better served with a pirate copy of a cd PLAYER, perhaps. I know many people who cut corners with a "jastronics" or "phonix" answering machine/vcr/dvd player only to end up with a sony when the noname failed. If the build quality of the clone is good enough that the upgrade concept is "rubbish", then that implies that the quality of the clones is good enough for them to be reliable.


I have no issue with cheap lighting units. Nor do I blame amateurs and enthusiasts from succumbing to the lure of a fake. I just firmly believe that anyone who earns money from lighting (including videographers) shouldn't buy fakes.

I can agree in principle, but my problem is that the big lighting companies do little to service the "videographer" as opposed to the rental house or broadcast station. As the prices of all the other hardware associated with production has dropped, is it reasonable for a company to expect to keep selling the same lights at the same pricepoint (adjusting for inflation) since 1980? I mean, recouping r&d is one thing, but how many decades does that r&d demand a premium? Does it really make sense that i can buy a high def video camera AND a laptop computer (both mind bending from the perspective of when the arri electric ballast HMI came out) for less than the price of one modestly powered HMI fixture? I mean, exactly how much technology is in a ballast compared to a camera?

Clones aren't the answer, but they do show where the market demand is. I can understand not wanting to sell inexpensive fixtures, as once it produces light, there isn't much of anything to differentiate it from an expensive light source. Its the same reason sony and canon have always looked for a way to cripple their prosumer line of cameras. And its the same reason DVinfo exists and we all experiment with things like dslr and 35 adapters and... even dv/hdv cameras. There is a trend towards spending less on hardware. Lots of companies have had to shut their doors due to that trend. They wont be the last.

I think LEDs represent the answer/future for videographers. There is a lot of development for use in other industries, and the mechanics of implementing led lights into a housing is extremely simple, without even requiring the complexities of a ballast. They don't have the punch.. yet.

For now i'm keen on a 1.2k hmi fresnel. Arri's is $6500. Some generic on ebay is $1400. The ballast for both is made of 100% off-the-shelf components. The chinese one is not a clone except that the fixture does look a bit like arris *used* to. I dunno. its a tough call for me.

Regarding fake-branded clones? Yeah, thats bullshit. I can debate the behringer vs mackie dilemma from either side, but as soon as somebody puts a fake logo on something thats an entirely different thing.

Nobody asked me and I just rambled. Sorry about that.

Andrew.


Don't apologise for rambling. It is a discussion, maybe even a debate by now. Diversity of opinion and knowledge makes for distilling down to truths and arriving at solutions.

My own honest opinion as to the current lamphouse construction style of cast endcaps and stamped panels/extrusions is that it is inferior across all products, clones or otherwise, versus older designs with entirely cast casework. But that's my thoughts.

All are only as good as the globes, optics and crew, The "known" brands for now can be assumed to have the edge in consistency of performance, safety and reliability as they are not newcomers at the game, not learning on the job. Like all students and disciples, expect the cloners to catch up.