I'll take a chance and post some information about the FS100. However, if someone who has never used it starts bashing the camera and arguing about meaningless technical specifications, I'll stop posting. A few people here seem to have an axe to grind and I merely ask that they keep that debate over on their own thread -- and not here. Fair enough? If not, they can have the soap box for themselves and I'll spend my time elsewhere.

A week before the 2011 NAB Convention, Sony sent a pre-production NEX-FS100 for me to shoot some demo footage for use in my F3/FS100 workshops they asked me to teach at the show.

The camera arrived on a Saturday morning. I set it up on my DSC test chart and created a custom Picture Profile that looked good to me. Please keep in mind that you should never judge a Sony camera right out of the box. You MUST create (or get) a Picture Profile or Scene File with a Sony camera if you expect the camera to perform at its best. That's the way Sony designs them, and it is the right way to do it.

All but 6-7 shots of this video were shot on that Saturday afternoon at various locations around Newport, Rhode Island.

I used a Novoflex E-Mount to Nikon adapter so that I could use my own Nikon lenses instead of the 18-200 f/3.5-6.3 lens that Sony sent with the camera. In my opinion, that lens is too slow for getting decent shallow depth-of-field . . . which is, after all, one of the main reasons for choosing a camera such as the NEX-FS100 that has a Super-35mm sensor.

The Nikon lenses I used were a 17-35mm f/2.8 and a 80-200mm f/2.8

Only the fishing boats and swan shots at 6:35 were taken with the stock 18-200mm lens.

Because the camera does not have any built-in ND filters of it's own, I used a $150 Genus Variable ND Polarizer filter to control the amount of light entering the lens. ALL shots, except for the indoor fruit basket were shot with the ND filter on the lens. I found that this filter actually allowed me much finer control over my exposure than if the camera had only a couple of built-in filter choices. What at first seemed like a big shortcoming of the camera, was quickly forgotten. I can use cheap step-down rings to use the same ND Polarizer on all of my lenses regardless of their native filter size.

No matte box was used.

All of the slow-motion shots were shot at 60fps at full 1920x1080 mode and recorded on the camera's onboard SD card. Full 1920x1080 @ 60fps is a unique ability of this camera compared to other Sony camcorders.

All shots in the video were recorded to the onboard SD card at 24Mbps. I will post comparison footage that was recorded simultaneously with a NanoFlash at 100MBps when I have time.

Only three shots, which are identified with supers had any color grading or post-processing applied to them. Everything else is straight out of the camera.

Keep in mind that this is a PROTOTYPE camera, and it is too early to make any final assessments of picture quality, features, etc. Let's wait until a production camera is released before we do that. I will not be comparing the FS100 to my PMW-F3 until that day comes, so don't bother to ask me my opinion on that subject.

Vortex Media's Sony NEX-FS100 Demo Footage on Vimeo

Thank you very much for going to the effort of making that video Doug.

Hi Doug,

I haven't used a vari-ND so I have a couple questions:

1) do you use a 77mm or 82mm ND and then use step-down rings for smaller lenses?

2) Do these vari-NDs have any side effects on the image?

3) With a 77mm vari-ND and step-down ring, how does that affect using a lens hood?

4) With a 77mm vari-ND and lens hood connected, do you use something like an eraser to spin/adjust the vari-ND? (a trick I used with polarizers when I was a stills photog) Or does the hood need to be removed to adjust the ND?

On a side note, anyone considering lenses for this camera, the Sony G 70-200/2.8 has a cool little door on its hood for adjusting screw-in filters.

Thanks to your info about the vari-NDs, I am now considering this camera to compliment my EX3s and nanoFlash.

Which brings me to another question: can this camera cut well with the EX-cams?

And one last question to anyone who might know: with the Alpha adapter, how do you adjust the aperture and is the aperture adjusted in 1/3 stop increments like a stills camera?

Thanks!

Nice shots Doug.

do you use something like an eraser to spin/adjust the vari-ND? (a trick I used with polarizers when I was a stills photog) Or does the hood need to be removed to adjust the ND?

And one last question to anyone who might know: with the Alpha adapter, how do you adjust the aperture and is the aperture adjusted in 1/3 stop increments like a stills camera?!

Rats. Wish I'd known that eraser trick when I was out with my EX1r it's polarizer trapped behind the lens shade!!!

This isn't the answer to your question but in case it is a tidbit...as far as the Alpha lens adapter, there's a thumb wheel near the lens mount on the camera body that's for adjusting aperture on lenses that lack a manual ring. So if the alpha lens supports that, I think that's how it's done.

Very nice!

Doug:

Thanks for the great demo...

I find you comments on the variable ND interesting, as I had the extact same experience with my Canon 5D this last weekend in shooting an outdoor film. I mount the variable filters and attached a cheap circular rubber hood to the filter. I then would set fstop as I wanted, for depth of field desired, then adjusted the variable ND for exposure, using the false colors on my Marshall monitor as my gude. Worked very well.

A lower cost fader ND filter from China is sold with this caveat: "Recommend to be used not more than focal length of 50mm as calculated in 35mm format. Not suits for tele lens. It may not be suitable for wide angle lens <24mm,35mm film format equivalent."


If this is true (?), then these filters are not a complete solution?

Thanks for the test. I have only one caveat. I see mainly in the sky some form of negative vignette (clearer) on the edges which is for my taste not that beautiful at all, the sky become more turquoise(near clipping) blue. You can clearly see it from shot at 21 sec and one really distracting on at 27 sec. I guess it is more to do with the polarizer than the camera.

Dear Doug,

I'm seriously considering the FS100 as the second camera to my EX1. Since you had an opportunity to play with the PP (even if only with a pre-production unit) - what your impressions are regarding the colorimetry and other picture characteristics from the viewpoint of inter-cutting with EX material?

Hi Doug,

I haven't used a vari-ND so I have a couple questions:!


Answers:

1) My polarizer is 77mm because that is the diameter of my largest Nikon lens.

2) Yes. Like any polarizer, they can affect that image in more ways than just making it darker. It's just something to keep in mind when shooting and to adjust the settings as necessary. Everything you can change on a camera has side-effects of one kind or another, and a polarizer is no different.

3) I don't normally use lens hoods on my Nikon lenses, but I suppose the filter might make it more difficult to use if I wanted to. If you want a lens hood, get a rubber shade that fits the diameter of your polarizer and move it from lens to lens with the polarizer. Easy.

4) The polarizer has a (removable) metal post extending from it that makes it easy to rotate the glass.

A lower cost fader ND filter from China is sold with this caveat: "Recommend to be used not more than focal length of 50mm as calculated in 35mm format. Not suits for tele lens. It may not be suitable for wide angle lens <24mm,35mm film format equivalent."


If this is true (?), then these filters are not a complete solution?

My Genus filter worked great with an 80-200mm lens.

Thanks for the test. I have only one caveat. I see mainly in the sky some form of negative vignette (clearer) on the edges which is for my taste not that beautiful at all, the sky become more turquoise(near clipping) blue. You can clearly see it from shot at 21 sec and one really distracting on at 27 sec. I guess it is more to do with the polarizer than the camera.

Like any polarizer, these filters can affect the picture in good ways and bad ways. Just something to keep in mind and to work around. I agree that several of my shots are less than perfect, but I was moving pretty fast and it was my first day with the camera. I'm sure I'll get better at minimizing the negative effects of the polarizer. It's just a matter of getting the technique down. In situations where I have a lot of sky in the shot, I will probably use real ND filters in front of the lens instead of the polarizer.

Dear Doug,

I'm seriously considering the FS100 as the second camera to my EX1. Since you had an opportunity to play with the PP (even if only with a pre-production unit) - what your impressions are regarding the colorimetry and other picture characteristics from the viewpoint of inter-cutting with EX material?

I think the FS100 would cut in very easily with EX1 or EX3 material in a typical two-camera shoot -- as long as you weren't trying to match the exact same shot . . . which you'd never do in the real world.

Thanks Doug!

Two camera shooting of live classical music performance is my planned usage, so the EX1 and the FS100 should complement each other nicely...

Thnks, Doug. I can't wait until you get a production model so you can give it a thorough evaluation. Then, I can buy it off of you. ;-)

Doug, is there a limiter in the audio recording circuit?

The operation manual says yes, but I did not have time to try it myself.


AUDIO LIMIT
You can set the clipping-noise reduction function for CH1/CH2.

OFF Disables the function.

ON Enables the function.

� This function is available only when you set the AUTO/MAN (CH1/CH2) switches to MAN

Thnks, Doug. I can't wait until you get a production model so you can give it a thorough evaluation. Then, I can buy it off of you. ;-)

Glen, don't count on it! :-)

That good, huh?

I may have to sell my Canon, in that case.

Doug, what's the timeline for the training DVD (chocked full of presets)?

Well so much for the fader ND filters causing the image to look
bad. I've never used them and had been told by others, that they
can cause the video to look pretty bad, but the stuff you shot looked
very nice. Thanks for the first hand look and commentary on the
camera!

However, if someone who has never used it starts bashing the camera and arguing about meaningless technical specifications, I'll stop posting.

That cracked me up. Yes, the testosterone runs rampid on this forum sometimes.

Very nice posting Doug. My goal is to replace all three of my cameras next year, I'm really hoping for something good by next year.

Good job.

Doug, what's the timeline for the training DVD (chocked full of presets)?

Galen,

Thank you for asking. A training DVD for the FS100 is several months away. First I have to get a final production camera (not a prototype that is subject to being changed) and then it takes about 6-8 weeks of full-time work after that to produce a good training video. About 400 man-hours goes into the production so it is not something I can crank out overnight.

I am happy to say that our PMW-F3 training DVD will be shipping by the end of the month.
Mastering the Sony PMW-F3 training DVD (http://www.vortexmedia.com/DVD_F3.html)


PS.
Thank you to everyone for the nice comments on my footage. I do enjoy reading the feedback and comments, but I don't want to bore everyone with replying to them. Just know that it is appreciated. Thanks.

Doug, what minimum speed of SD card is going to be appropriate for this camera.

Class 10, 20MB/s is working fine for the CANON DSLR's I have, the next step up is 30MB/s, and I see in the accessories for the FS100, B&H PHOTO is showing a 45MB/s card. But I've seen nothing official in the specs from SONY regarding this choice. Thanks.

Galen,

According the the preliminary operation manual that I have a copy of, Class 4 is good enough for normal shooting and Class 10 is recommended for overcranking. Cards have been tested and approved up to 64GB. SD, SDHC, SDXC, Memory Stick PRO Duo, Memory Stick PRO-HG Duo are all compatible.

I should add that I used a 32GB Hoodman RAW card with the FS100 and had no problems -- nor did I expect to. I've been using that card with my F3 a lot to test the reliability of today's SD cards.

If there are dedicated slots for SD cards and memory sticks, why couldn't the camera be programmed to record to both simultaneously? Canon finally got around to updating the XF300 firmware for simultaneous recording to two cards. Right now the literature implies simultaneous recording to one memory card and the optional drive.

Galen,

You can't record on two cards at once because there is only one slot. It accepts either type of card -- SD or Memory Stick.

There's a better way of simultaneous recording anyway, and that is with the HXR-FMU128
Sony HXR-FMU128 Flash Memory Unit HXR-FMU128 B&H Photo Video

There's a recessed area on the right side of the camera where the drive just pops right in with no extra cables or power requirements. You woudn't even notice it was there. Then you can record up to 10 hours of footage at the highest bit rate on the drive. You can set it up to record on the drive and the memory card at the same time. Two copies, instantly.

Definitely a must have accessory, my guess is that they will never update this unit to USB 3.0, seems Sony and Canon never do minor changes to existing accessories like this.

I read on another site, the Genus ND filter is not a good option for wider angle lenses. Has anyone tried it with a 50mm or wider?

I guess a USB 3.0 version of the flash drive would not have much benefit, as USB 2.0 is faster than the speed SD cards work at, so I have heard.

When recording to both SD card and the 128GB optional flash drive, does anyone know what happens when one stops working? Is there a unwanted warning/interruption that you have to stop and deal with? I would hope you can just continue to record the action.

Not sure why Sony would not have just added a second card slot for dual recording instead of making people buy an expensive add on unit--is there any logic to this???

Lexar makes a 128GB SDXC card, that size is a good match for the optional recording unit, not sure if the FS-100 is compatible with 128GB SD cards. That would mean less time/problems fiddling with cards all day. But that's a lot of eggs to put in one basket though--less of a concern when using the backup drive.

I don't understand how the 128GB optional drive can record for 10 hours, I am getting maybe 80 minutes out of 32GB with my DSLR.

Hi Galen,

Only 80 minutes sounds very odd. With my EX3 at 35Mb/s plus 16bit uncompressed audio, I get 110 minutes on a 32GB SxS card. Your DSLR is only ~21Mb/s and far lower quality audio; so, you should get much longer recording times.

Just to add to what Steve already said, the FS100 is only going to record at 24Mbps in 30P and 24P recording modes, so that's how you end up with 10 hours on a 128GB drive.

Having one card slot isn't a problem for me because I NEVER have two cards loaded in a camera even if it does have two slots. If having only one slot shaves a few bucks and size/weight off of the camera, I say it was a great idea.

QUOTE: "I read on another site, the Genus ND filter is not a good option for wider angle lenses. Has anyone tried it with a 50mm or wider?"

Joe, whoever said that is misinformed. About 50% of the video I posted to start this thread was shot with a Nikon 17-35mm f/2.8 lens with Genus Variable ND polarizer. 17mm would certainly be considered wide angle. Yoiu should post the link to my Vimeo video on the other website and set the record straight. Misinformation, that goes unchallenged, about a camera hurts everyone who chooses to buy it later on down the road.

Hi Galen,

Only 80 minutes sounds very odd. With my EX3 at 35Mb/s plus 16bit uncompressed audio, I get 110 minutes on a 32GB SxS card. Your DSLR is only ~21Mb/s and far lower quality audio; so, you should get much longer recording times.

It doesn't sound odd, im not sure where you are getting 21Mbps, but if Galen is using canon DSLRs, standard bitrate for 1080p recording should be ~45Mbps, so ~90min should be about right for 32GB.

32000MB / (45Mbps / 8bitsperbyte) / 60 secondsperminute = 94 minutes

And for the NEX-FS100
128000MB / (24Mbps / 8bitsperbyte / 60 secondsperminute / 60 minutesperhour = 11.9 hrs

Thanks, Noah, I ran a 32GB card on a T2i, using the auto restart mode in Magic Lantern, and got the 90 minutes. Longer recording times on a given size SD card compared to a DSLR must be another plus for the FS-100.

About 50% of the video I posted to start this thread was shot with a Nikon 17-35mm f/2.8 lens with Genus Variable ND polarizer. 17mm would certainly be considered wide angle. Yoiu should post the link to my Vimeo video on the other website and set the record straight./QUOTE]

Have you tested the variable ND for IR contamination? It's an issue with standard ND filters used with CMOS cameras.

Sorry double post

Have you tested the variable ND for IR contamination?

No I didn't.

Early days yet, given time I expect they'll be done.

Joe, whoever said that is misinformed. About 50% of the video I posted to start this thread was shot with a Nikon 17-35mm f/2.8 lens with Genus Variable ND polarizer. 17mm would certainly be considered wide angle. Yoiu should post the link to my Vimeo video on the other website and set the record straight. Misinformation, that goes unchallenged, about a camera hurts everyone who chooses to buy it later on down the road.

I agree misinformation should be challenged, so for clarity;

The reason you see no vignetting on your shots here is because you are using a full-frame 135 format lens.

Put the same lens and vari-ND on a D3 and it will vignette at around 24mm.

On the FS100, if you use a DX or EF-S lens, like the Tokina 11-16mm f/2.8, it will vignette at around 12mm.

You should post the link to my Vimeo video on the other website and set the record straight. Misinformation, that goes unchallenged, about a camera hurts everyone who chooses to buy it later on down the road.

Thanks, I will.

And this is not a D3 forum. We are talking about the filter working on an FS100, therefore the results with other cameras are irrelevant here.
I would be very surprised to see vignetting with a DX lens. I look forward to trying it the next time I have a FS100.

Yes, Doug we are talking about the FS100 and no, it's not irrelevant. The other camera I mentioned was to help with my explanation - let me have another go, so people understand:)

Again, this is just for clarity - not trying to start a row here and certainly not trying to take anything away from your very valid test footage...

You have used a lens designed for a full frame stills camera, a camera such as a Nikon D3 (nothing wrong with that BTW). You are using it on a camera with a smaller sensor. Thus you are shooting through the middle of the lens- clear of the vignetting. If you pop the lens on a full frame camera - you'll see the vignetting.

If you use a lens on your FS100 designed for the format - like a DX lens or an APS-C lens and you use a variable ND, you'll clearly see vignetting on wides.

Ultimately, everyone will make their own mind up. To me, variable NDs are useful and they do have their place in my kit bag, but they do have issues. Personally, I don't like the inconsistent colours they produce or the fact that I can't use my lens hoods, but I do like the speed they deliver in finding a good exposure.

There's a lot of comment all over this forum on variable NDs and it's probably well past time we got all the facts on the table. Maybe I'll start a thread on it somewhere. Anyway, in the meantime, here's an excellent review on the Genus/Sing-ray:

David vs Goliath – can a “cheap” Variable Neutral Density Filter beat the top of the line? | Benjamin Moritz Photography – the blog (http://www.benjaminmoritz.com/blog/2011/03/30/david-vs-goliath-can-a-cheap-variable-neutral-density-filter-beat-the-top-of-the-line/)

I'm one of those cave men who prefers tripods over hand held, except for specific scenes. So, a mattebox and filters won't bother me. I'm also interested in things like Tiffen Black Promist filters and other cinematography tools.

I'm looking forward to tests with the final production camera. Maybe Sony will listen and make the thing a world camera instead of segregated. Really not good thinking on that.

Liam,

The main thing that Mr. Moritz's blog proves is that he does not know how to use an ND polarizer properly. Yeah, I can show a lot of vignetting too -- if I misuse the filter. In the proper hands, the vignetting is neglible and would only be a problem in the most extreme examples.

You seem to think that a DX lens is going to reveal all kinds of problems, so I pulled out a 18-105 DX lens that I have never used before and would never use under ordinary circumstances. It came as a kit lens on a D700O I own. Can we agree that the sensor size of the Nikon D7000 is approximately the same as the FS100? It would be nice to have an FS100 for a test, but since we don't, I've used a Nikon D7000.

Here's series of three shots, all taken at 18mm within seconds of each other -- as you can see from the cloud pattern. The only thing that has changed was the rotation of the filter and the shutter speed that the camera chose to compensate for the exposure change. There approximately a 4-stop difference between A and C.

Yes, there is some vignetting, but keep in mind that this is a worst case example. White clouds on a flat sky. If this was typical video/photo of a person, landscape, etc. with shadows, shapes, etc. the vignetting would not even be noticable. As the video I posted at the start of this thread supports.

I can live with these results. But if it bothers someone else, then they should look into using real ND filters or find another camera to buy. The polarizer is not perfect, but it is a quick and easy way to adjust the exposure in most common shooting situations. Anyone who says an ND polarizer is unusable is dead wrong. And the Genus I have is the cheapest one you can buy. I wonder if a more expensive filter would look even better?

Whether or not this lens or filter would show vignetting on a full-size sensor camera is irrelevant, since the FS100 is not full-size sensor. This is an FS100 forum.

Doug, it has nothing to do with user operation. It's simple physics.

The reason you don't see vignetting on your 18-105 is because it is not wide enough. Please read my earlier post carefully. I mention 12mm for APS-C and 24mm for Full-Frame.

The issue here is the image circle produced by different lenses. I'm sure you understand that a lens designed for full frame camera produces a larger image circle than a lens designed for a crop sensor camera at the same focal length and that the image circle will differ between manufacturers at the same focal length for the same format.

As far as I understand it, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but the FS100 sensor is S35 sized, so if I can see vignetting on on a 7D at 12mm with a Tokina 11-16mm lens then it stands to reason that I will see even more vignetting on the FS100 because the sensor is bigger.

The reason variable NDs suffer particularly badly from vignetting on wides is because they are effectively two filters. Any stills photographer used to working with filters will know that stacking filters can be problematic with some lenses at certain focal lengths. In fact you can see the rim of some variable ND filters with some lenses at certain focal lengths. The new Tiffen variable ND looks promising because it has a lower profile than most of the others and is certainly worth a try.

The work around is simple enough - use a larger filter with a step down ring, but that can be a pain too, bringing more flares and ghosting issues into the equation.

Anyway, I don't want to derail your thread further, I've only answered this again because I think it's important that people make the right lens/filter choices with this camera. I think I've said all I can on this matter, you can choose to disagree, so be it, no hard feelings:)


Here's a useful chart for comparing sensor sizes (it doesn't have FS100, but does have F3 - which is the same size):
http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/images/uploaded/sensor_table.gif

Liam,

No hard feelings at all. I enjoy the debate, and you have not derailed the thread. Topics weave and evolve all on their own.

As for me, I won't ever be using a lens wider than 17mm on my FS100 (when I get it) and my filter is 77mm, so I have already established to my satisfaction that the ND polarizer will work just fine for controlling exposure while keeping the lens wide open and the shutter speed right where I want it. Naturally, other people have their own unique needs and expectations. I think we have both given people some food for thought. Thanks.

Can we agree that the sensor size of the Nikon D7000 is approximately the same as the FS100?

I will agree 100% because the F3/FS100 is an Super 35 version of the 16.2 million photosite APS-C chip used in the A55, the D7000, and the re-spin of the NEX cameras,

Other than SHAPE, the chip is the same.

What's different -- and is key -- is the way the F3/FS100 DSP groups 16 photosites into one of 3.7 million "pixels." This is HOW the 2-stops of sensitivity is obtained. The DSP, not the chip is the magic part!

But, the difference in DSP goes further. The F3 has 10-bit processing that works in 4:4:4 space.

The FS100 uses standard consumer/prosumer DSP that works in 8-bit 4:2:2 color space. This is why power consumption is so much less.

Steve, can I ask you to state when you are speculating about camera details rather than just simply presenting them as known and proven facts? You know how the internet goes, one person says something and it then gets picked up and spread as a solid fact, when it may be incorrect.

BTW the F3's processing is 12 bit, the same as all the other EX cameras.

I also believe that the F3 and FS100 sensors active imaging area to be larger than that of most APS-C cameras including the VG10, Canon's and Nikons. In my recent camera evaluations using the same lens on both APS-C cameras and the F3 the F3 presented a significantly wider FOV which is a sure sign of a larger active area.

The Canon is supposed to be 22.3 x 14.9mm, the VG10 is supposed to be 23.4 X 15.6mm the F3 is supposed to be 23.6 x 13.3mm but the images I get with the same lens indicate that the VG10's sensor (or at least the active area) is smaller than the Canon which is smaller than the F3, this is not what I was expecting, but that's what I am seeing.