Hi,

My current Tripod has Manfrotto 251 Legs (75mm Half Bowl) and a manfrotto 136 head. I am not at all happy with the head although the legs are fine. From what I can gather Manfrotto do not really do any decent heads. I belie Vinten do (the ones that are not re-badged Manfrotto). What head would people recommend for these legs. Ideally something I can pick up for a couple of hundred quid (or maybe 300) used.

The main camera I use is a Sony Z1.

Regards,
Ben

This, Manfrotto dont make decent heads tale has cropped up many times over the last few months, Manfrotto DO make some very good video heads. I have used the 503 head for 4 years, currently with an EX1. It really depends on what your intended use is. Sure you can spend a lot of money on a tripod, but do you really need to? I have used my Manfrotto for everything from corporate, web video to broadcast sports, it has always proved more than up to the job, and didnt cost a fortune.

I've been using a 501 head since like 1999. No problems.

Another friend has two Bogen tripods, both with 501 heads, and he's had them a number of years as well. No issues.

Bogen/Manfrottro makes good stuff I believe.

It all depends on what your needs are an your budget. Others here will citicize Manfrotto and call it junk. Fine, but for MY needs Manfrotto has served me well for a great many years. Legs and heads. I've had and used the 501s, 503, 516s and have used the 504. Compared to a Cartoni that is man many times more cost wise, I admit Manfrotto doesn't compare but I don't need to haul a 5 or 6 thousand dollar tripod around to do a wedding. The Cartonis I used shooting NASCAR races for TV cost more than most people spend on a decent used car. Different needs. Do the Manfrotto heads have quirks? You bet but it's like any other peice of gear. You have to know the limitations, what you can and can't do with it and once you know that then you can work with the gear to accomplish what you need to accomplish. If you can't do that, then you need to change the gear and get something that you can afford and would do the job better than what you have.

There's an old saying that says "it's only to expensive if it doesn't do the job" so price really has little to do with much other than your budget.

Manfrotto may not be the best but if it serves your purposes and that's what you can afford then it's the best for you at that time.

OK, fair shout. I think the problem may be that my Manfrotto head is an old model, I guess thisgs have moved on.

So to bring this thread back to what I was trying to find out, what's a good video head for Z1 1for under £500 (new).

So I guess the other question is what's the best Manfrotto head for Z1?

Ben

Manfrotto 504 Manfrotto 504HD PRO VIDEO HEAD 75: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics

My current Tripod has Manfrotto 251 Legs


According to B&H, a Manfrotto 251 is actually a set of wheels, so it seems unlikely that's your tripod.



the ones that are not re-badged Manfrotto


Ahem, Vinten took an original Manfrotto product, stripped it into it's component parts, threw the vast majority of them in the bin and re - engineered the remains from the ground up.

The ProTouch series are not re - badged anythings, they're Vinten.


Anyway, cutting to the chase, having some idea what sticks would have been packaged with a Manfrotto 136 head, I'd have to say that upgrading the head whilst leaving the sticks extant will, most likely, be the support equivalent of putting go faster stripes on a Morris Oxford.

The best head on the planet will behave like a complete dog on a sub standard set of sticks, and it is entirely probable that some of the issues you're having with your current head do, indeed, stem from the sticks themselves.

Much as I don't agree with the "Manfrotto do make some good video heads" statement, you may find that upgrading your entire system to a Manfrotto 501 or 3 head with 525 (or similar) sticks is a game changer for your particular style of shooting.

I'm not up with current UK pricing, especially for second hand, but there's so many of that combination around it should be somewhere close to your stated budget.


CS

On the other hand..................

As the budget has undergone a serious weight gain in the last couple of hours, you could, with a bit of judicious shopping around and some scrimping and saving, go for the ultimate in it's class for a Z1.

Yep, drum roll, everyone knows what's coming.........a Vinten Vision Blue.

Now, THAT'S a camera support!

And there ain't nothing in the Manfrotto arsenal that comes even close, heck, there's nothing in anybody's arsenal that comes close in that price bracket.

That'll probably be the last camera support you'll be buying for the next decade or even longer.

Worth a try if the bidding is up to 500 smackers already.


CS

PS: I meant for the entire system BTW - head, sticks, mid level spreader, boots and case can all be had for less than 750 quidlets with just a quick flick through some of the UK vendors. If you're thinking of dropping 500 already, go the whole hog, you most certainly won't regret it.

PPS: My review of same, in case anyone missed it: http://www.dvinfo.net/article/production/camsupport/review-vinten-vision-blue.html

PPS: Anyone who is tempted to venture towards a Manfrotto 504HD head, forget it. Their other offerings may not be stellar, but the 504 has taken total head b*s to an entirely different level, I jest not. Review of same coming soon, and it ain't pretty. The Libec, Sachtler and Vision Blue heads up against it, well, basically, creamed it into total sludge. Don't go there.

Yes, I just came across Vinten Vision Blue, sounds great.

Thing is I was saying £500 new as I was hoping to get something for £300 used. £500 would be already stretching the budget somewhat. I was hoping just to spend money on the head and keep the legs. Is it possible to get just the Vision Blue head and put it on my existing legs (75mm half bowl).

Ben

Well, you could, Ben..............

but you come back to what I said about good heads on crap legs, they still end up giving you crap video.

The best head on the planet cannot save you from a totally crap pair of sticks, and I'd venture to guess yours aren't exactly stellar, let's be blunt.

Suggestions if the VB is totally out of reach?

My original.

Go for a Manfrotto 525 / equivalent/ 501 - 3 system as an interim upgrade,

Libec RS 250 if affordable.

They've got a few foibles, but a newbie won't even notice them, certainly you won't, for a few months. Then they'll start to drive you nuts, and you'll start wondering "why did I buy this crap?".

At which point you'll look back at this post and think "I wish I had..........................", game over.

Can't say much more than that.

This sort of post has become so depressingly familiar I think I'm going to need councelling fairly shortly (Hey, Chris, can I swing that on MediCare?)


CS

OK, thing is I like the legs. I don't think they are crappy atall. They are sturdy aluminium legs with a spreader, I cant folt them.

To cheer yourself up from the depressing threads check out 2001 FORD FOCUS GHIA 1.8 Zetec Very Clean Interior | eBay UK (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220768216260#ht_6009wt_1025url&afsrc=1), it has had over 22,000 views simply on amusement value alone.

Ben

I've used 503 head for years its ok. I upgraded to Manfrotto 504HD its really fantastic they added many improvements. I get smoother pans and tilts and use it for dance recitals. A good head is essential for this type of work because when you're zoomed in any problems with the head are magnified. The other more expensive pro heads are only worth the price if you do a lot of motion but I still think 504HD is a great value.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/683559-REG/Manfrotto_504HD_504HD_Fluid_Video_Head.html

Ben,

Do you have a link to anywhere that shows the legs? I can't find a 251 anywhere.

There really is little point putting a head like the Vision Blue on lower quality legs. But without knowing what lets those are, it's kind of hard to tell.

I also wondered if the 503HDV was discontinued, a lot of dealers seem to have replaced it with the 504HDV.

Ben,

Here's a used 503HDV/525 kit for £300+VAT:

Used Manfrotto MN-503HDV525 (MN-503, 503HDV) video tripod kit c/w fluid head + 2 stage alloy legs + ground spreader + case (http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/index.php?t=product/used_mn503hdv-525&mailshot=true)

Not a bad starter kit for your cam. CVP are very reputable, give them a shout.

BTW, Ben, I checked out that link you posted about the e bay ad, depression gone, rolling on floor in stiches, even the missus is amused (she's a bit like Queen Victoria in this regard, so a major hit!).

Good luck with the camera support, hope it woks out and your wallet is suitably happy.


CS

Of course, I missed the subject of "better than Manfrotto", and then I linked to a Manfrotto for sale! Doh!

Still, the 503HDV should be a step up.

.........and then I linked to a Manfrotto for sale! Doh!

Not really a lot else you could do. The thread started with Ben believeing that the issue was a head problem, but the balance of probability was that it is a system problem, owing to the likely sticks packaged with that head (sticks still unidentified, strangely).

With the tight budget then stretched to a complete system, the room for manouvre came down to pretty well zero.

Much as I dislike recommending incremental suport upgrades, because it's so wastefull of cash amongst other things, in this instance I couldn't do any better either.



Still, the 503HDV should be a step up.

It should, though I'd really like to nail Bens current sticks before betting the farm on it. Still think it's a shame there wasn't enough in the kitty to go straight to the top of the class and bypass all the in between stuff, but cest la vie.


CS

I rented a 504, it's in a completely different league than the 501/701/503 series. Seems pretty good, but I'm not as discriminating as Chris or some of the others. Thing about the 504, is that once you strap on the legs, aren't you into Vinten/Sachtler price category?

Ah, well, sort of.................

If you check out the component prices of both the Manfrotto and Libec systems (504HD head/ 546B sticks; RH 25 head/ RT 30B sticks) you notice something interesting.

The 504 head is only about 20 - 30 bucks more than a 503HDV, which gives you a pretty good guide as to what it cost in design and tooling to produce, but those 546B sticks are pretty expensive by comparison (and they're damn good sticks too, shame about the spreader).

With Libec, it's the other way 'round. The sticks are comparatively cheap (they really did pare them down to the bone, and it shows) whilst the head cost them a bomb, hence it's very expensive.

So, you end up with a very similar package price for both systems, neither of which, as a whole, are that stellar (any system is only as good as it's weakest link, sort of thing) and their package price is somewhere South of the Vinten VB by about 3 - 4 hundred bucks.

Where Vinten totally blind sided both of them was in using the Vision 6 head, long in production and all R&D & tooling costs recouped, simply re - badged and liveried and a new spring. Mate it with a standard pro production set of Vinten sticks (and they make VERY good sticks) and practically give away the head (it doesn't owe them much) and you have a killer system at a price that 10 years ago would have been inconcievable.

Going for anything other than the Vinten in that weight/ COG class is sheer financial/ operational lunacy IMHO.

And just to totally enrage those swearing about the 504's supposedly wonderfull handling characteristics, why not take a free VB test drive, then come back and say the 504 is somehow in the same league.

I've had them both here side by side, and there is no way on the planet there is any similarity. The 504 is a total dog by comparison (sorry Manfrotto, missed again, great sticks, mind!).

I know this always comes across as biased, and in a way, it is. I expect any tool I buy to do what it was bought to do, when I want, how I want and not to make me change how I do things because of it's limitations (and anything failing in that task goes straight in the bin).

The Vintens do that, no drama, no exceptions, no baulking. Everything else is just "This is what I can do, take it or leave it". Well, I'll leave it, thanks, but no thanks.

[Ooh, was that a rant? Didn't feel like a rant. nah, just me being me I guess. Mention of Manfrotto 504's may have something to do with it, better get that review of same up, been particularly slack with it].

Just feel the need to impart information, can't help myself.


CS

The reality is most people don't do high end work. It makes sense to pair equipment that's in an appropriate proportion to the other equipment and the amount you are getting paid. I can only speak for myself but 504 is quality enough for the work I do and matches my budget. Btw, I use it with a Z1.

Why not get the best camera, microphone, wireless system, mixer, sticks, head, editing software, lights, monitor, computer... No one is saying that 504 is better or the same as Vinten but Vinten isn't 3-4x better because that's the price difference. I've used semi-pro heads like the 501 that claim to be fluid but are utter crap.

Pete, I agree. I've said time after time you get the best you can afford for the type of work you are doing and for some thats Manfrotto 501. I've used Cartoni heads and legs that are cost enough to be able to buy a nice car or use as a downpayment on a house and trust me they make the other stuff out there look pretty bad BUT for the LIVE TV work I was doing (using remote cameras as much as 1/4 mile from the placement on the track to track cars at 200MPH ) that's what was needed. For weddings, seminars, talking heads, even most TV commericals as sports like high school or JR college football, the 501/503/504/516 heads on the 3246 or 515/525 legs worked just fine for me.
You get what you need, what you can afford and if it doesn't do the job you want then you get something else.
Like I've said before, if you know the limitations of any piece of gear and can work within them, great. If you can't then you need to get something else.

I think Manfrotto gets a bad wrap because they sell wide range of heads. Either through Manfrotto's misrepresentation of low end heads or beginners ignorance, they get a bad reputation. For example, I remember Manfrotto using fluid to describe the 501 head when its really friction.

Don, you make a good point about the type of work will dictate the type of head you're going to need. If you're shooting live action from over 50 ft away, nothing but a quality fluid head will do a proper job. For close up interviews a lower quality head will most likely fit the bill.

Back to the OP, if you have the money ($1,000-$1,800) and want to get a pro head you won't be disappointed and its not a terrible investment but imhop it's a little out of proportion to the camera you are using.

Ben, take a look at the Sachtler FSB-4. It's right sized for the Z1 and can be either a bowl or flat top so you uare future proofed with whatever legs you have now and in the future. The Vinten Blue isn't. Of course if you want to buy English, then Vinten and Libec are your brands. I have Sacthler FSB-4 and Cartoni Focus heads and love them.

Ben


Ben took a dive a couple of days ago, we're talking to ourselves now


The Vinten Blue isn't


No camera support currently manufactured is "future proof" in any way, shape or form. It is only a question of time before mechanical supports will give way to electronic interfaces which allow the OIS systems to know what the "support" is trying to do, thus obviating the need for precision mechanical engineering.

Of course if you want to buy English

Er, hello? Both Vinten and Sachtler are manufactured in Costa Rica and distributed from the UK, Libec is manufactured in both Japan and Taiwan. It wouldn't suprise me if the Cartoni isn't also manufactured in Costa Rica.

So, not to harp on, but what has been quietly glossed over here is that elephant in the studio corner called ...........HD!

Many supports that were, and are, perfectly suitable for shooting SD (I myself used a Manfrotto 503/ 520 rig for many years) just simply won't cut it for HD.

If you're shooting for SD with a HD camera, fine, it probably won't show.

Try shooting for HD with a SD only rated support. I can tell you from bitter (and expensive) experience, it simply cannot be done and it will negate all and any skill you may have with your rig.

Just about anyone asking support questions on this Forum has bought into HD at one level or another (not really much choice now) so why on earth would I point them deliberately to a rig that can't shoot HD for HD (IMHO)?

I can't and won't.

As for "the type of work dictating the quality of head" to seriously paraphrase some responses, they (the head and sticks) are either capable of shooting HD for HD, or they ain't (again, IMHO).

If you're shooting HD for HD, the camera dictates the standard of support, not the "type of work" because it's all HD for HD and any old rubbish simply won't cut it.

All, of course, IMHO, but then again, maybe I missed something in the last 20 odd years and am talking through my hat.

And with that, I think this thread may well have passed it's use by date.


CS

Ben took a dive a couple of days ago, we're talking to ourselves now
CS
So what?

No camera support currently manufactured is "future proof" in any way, shape or form. CS
"In any way"? I have to disagree. He asked about heads. He has bowl sticks. The issue I was thinking of when I made the future proof point was in practical terms of bowl vs flat top mounting. This is from my experience using and purchasing tripods over the years...coming from where the OP seems to be. For example, sliders are typically flat top and there are some travel legs that are flat top. Future proof in the sense of future gear Dan may acquire that doesn't use a bowl. I know the Sachtler design supports both... some others do too and that issue may be important to the OP and others who read this thread. That practical aspect *may* be more important to some ways of thinking than the rating in your spreadsheet.

Er, hello? Both Vinten and Sachtler are manufactured in Costa Rica and distributed from the UK, Libec is manufactured in both Japan and Taiwan. It wouldn't suprise me if the Cartoni isn't also manufactured in Costa Rica.CS
Good to know. I speaking in terms of the brands as companies....I think of Libec and Vinten as UK companies, Sachtler Germany, Cartoni Italy......but as you say, manufacturing shifts depending on many things including the specific product. For people who like to support local economies when they can......

... I think this thread may well have passed it's use by date.CS

Disagree. Others come along and do searches of DVinfo and will find this discussion and maybe benefit from it. This information persistence a fundamental value prop of the internet. Specifically, they'll now read about the flexibility of some heads to work in both bowl and flat top environments. Also, they'll recognize your name, your entertaining posts and the predictable recommendation of Vinten Blue occasionally followed by my opinion saying how nice Sachtler and Cartoni brands are based on my ownership and use.