Note from Admin: we do not have permission to re-publish content belonging to other forum sites, so the bulk of the post below has been removed for liability purposes.

Found this story from a videog from another forum...scary and courageous...and i quote.....

"I just about went through cardiac arrest!! My second cam was GONE!!! Including my bag with all the other lenses!!! Tripod was still there, but everything else.....GONE!!

The groom did notice that one of his so-called friends was gone, and immediately called him to see where he went... low and behold, my equipment was there and accounted for."

I hope that this story NEVER happens to you guys, and as a word of advice to newbie videographers at a paid event, make sure you NEVER trust your equipment around people you don't know. "

that is wild.

Slightly off topic, is is amazing how many folks are apparently friends/acquaintances with scumbags (I could could be, who knows!). Two sets of neighbors in the apartment next to me have been robbed, both because they left their back door open/unlocked. Both times, it was suspected it was someone that knew them because the stuff stolen was so specific it was like someone knew exactly where to look and not disturb much else (I BELIEVE both times, these folks were HOME when it happened, and never knew 'til after).

Hey Kren

Scary stuff..thankfully I (and I hope no-one else here) has had that happen. Venues are usually really good as are the guests. I left one of my lavs connected to the transmitter on the register signing table after an outdoor ceremony...the staff at the venue came to me an hour later saying they looked after it for safe-keeping.... However I think we do tend to be trusting a little too much nowdays!!! OK, my camera on a tripod is probably a good 15lbs but really, anyone could pick it up and walk out...in fact I wouldn't be surprised if a guest offered to help thinking the thief was your assistant!!!

At the very least make sure you have valid insurance not only for gear in the car but also at the venue!!!

Chris

Chris, can you actually get insurance for gross stupidity? Seriously, I doubt ours would cover it, though if the story becomes commonplace it argues for having a second shooter/assistant.

Kren..... I'm speechless !!!

If ever there was ONE place where someone would figure their gear was safe from being ripped off, that would have to be INSIDE A CHURCH !!!

Wow, good on the groom for being so cooperative with the videographer and have actually helped him/her found the gears.

Reminds me not to leave my gear unattended ever again. Although it's generally safe here in Western Australia.

Wow, scary stuff. I think it's possible that we can all become too trusting at events like this.

One thing that gets me about this story... He mentions it's a crowded church, and no one see this guy taking the gear? Or if they did, no one was willing to speak up? Good for the groom.

On a similar tack. A thing I've heard at a number of venues is of someone collecting all of the gifts that are left on a table and walking off with them. They are not challenged because the hotel staff assume it's one of the wedding party, and the guests think it's someone from the hotel.

My policy actually says "theft from a locked vehicle" and "damage or theft at the venue".... I would think that if the assessor discovered that the camera was left in the parking lot unattended you would have no chance of a claim!!!
Actually an interesting discussion cos how can you really keep your gear "free from theft" at a venue??? Hmmm a really big taser on the tripod would work. Seriously I normally have a table away from the guests close to the dance floor....My gear stays close!! I think it's also essential to make friends with the photog and the DJ and watch each other's gear. Apart from chaining cases to the table leg and having secure locks on the zippers....there is no real middle-ground here so commonsense needs to prevail.

Chris

This is exactly the type of theft I am trying to account for by buying video insurance. The only problem? A $500 deductible...now if I lost a Zoom H4n, a monitor, an XLR mic...that would be the same as losing it straight up because each of those items are under $500...but to lose a whole camera, tripod, and bag of lenses...$500 loss is better than losing all of that!

Still trying to figure out the best way around the $500 deductible....

This is hilarious!! That videographer was ME!! I originally posted that last year on another forum! Yeah that was a day I will NEVER forget!

I never understand these stories, assistants are cheap... we run a studio in New York... and we never have any of our photographers or video crews go on a job without an assistant for multiple reasons. Aside from that assistants eventually become camera operators or editors... seriously how can you not squeeze out $100.00 for peace of mind and freedom of movement... besides it makes your company look bigger.
We have been in business for 20+ years, 2 generations and have never had one piece of equipment stolen
in one the roughest city for crime in the US.

If ever there was ONE place where someone would figure their gear was safe from being ripped off, that would have to be INSIDE A CHURCH !!!

Actually, that's the only place I could imagine that someone can steal your stuff, the problem with churches is that anyone can get in during a wedding (at least here) You don't have to know the couple. It's usually the moment when the couple goes out of the church the videographer follows for a few minutes to capture them coming out, that is the most dangerous moment for someone sitting and waiting inside to take what you left behind as almost all guests have left the church by then.
I work alone as well and have a second unmanned hd handycam on a tripod but before I go out I always take it of and carry it with me. Only my (not that expensive) tripods get left behind for a few minutes.

Last year we arrived a bit early at a church were there was still another wedding in progress and we had to wait, when they came out I quickly moved in to set up my gear and saw the previous videographer (they were with 2) still had one (very expensive) tripod standing inside. I could easily have taken it away to hide it without anyone seeing it.

Hi Noa

Much the same in Australia...most Churches are also open to the public which includes a Saturday afternoon. In fact I was chatting to a really nice old lady after the ceremony and congratulations (grabbing my 2nd cam and tripod plus all the radio gear) and I asked if she would be at the reception too? "Oh no dear, I'm not a guest, I just live down the road and spend my Saturday afternoons watching weddings"

She, of course, COULD have been a thief but luckily wasn't. One would expect that people, (even rotten thieves) would at least respect the santity of a Church but alas that doesn't happen. I do set up my main camera in the aisle right next to the MOG and we know each other from the rehearsal so there is a small safety factor there!! However when the Church empties so guests can congratulate the bride my main cam is probably unattended for 10 minutes or more......Luckily nothing has happened yet but it sure makes you wonder if you should be doing more????

What do other "single shooters" do for security????

Chris

Found this story from a videog from another forum...Please don't do that here. We don't have permission to re-publish posts from other forum sites. The original poster is welcome to share their story here, but it's a violation of that site's copyright to lift their contents and drop them in here. In order to mitigate our liability, I've edited your post down to the bare essentials, which is: guy shoots wedding, guy loses gear, guy gets gear back. Ironic since it involves one of our own members.

my apologies Chris...my bad :)

Still trying to figure out the best way around the $500 deductible....Consider it a cost of doing business just like gas, blank DVDs, equipment upgrades, etc.

What do other "single shooters" do for security????

Chris

Chris, like you I'm a solo shooter. When I set up a second camera in church I loop a cycle chain and combination lock through the camera handle and tripod. It's a heavy Manfrotto 058/116 combo so anyone trying to walk off with it will find it both heavy and cumbersome. After the ceremony I release the camera and
can usually get an usher to collapse the tripod and take them to my car, that's about the only assistance I need all day.

At hotels and the like I usually loop around something fixed nearby such as a radiator.

This is interesting because I did an informal recce of a church for George just recently and the thing I reported to him was that I wouldn't leave my car on the street in the area if I wanted the wheels to be there when the ceremony was over!

Philip, I don't think I'd have been leaving an unattended camera there - locked or not.

George, my point exactly.

Whilst I'm sure we have all taken calculated risks from time to time (and I'm as guilty as anyone else), leaving a camera unattended, unsecured, without someone specifically looking after it, will surely strike anyone living in an urban UK environment as surprising.

20 years ago we did a night shoot of the installation of an advertising obelisk for a French street furniture company and even then we hired an off-duty policeman to guard our gear. It's sad and I'm not proud of having to say it, but it's a fact that the time when we didn't have to lock our doors or take basic precautions are long gone, at least in this neck of the woods.

I know a videographer that had his gear stolen from the banquet room..right in front of him! He chased the thief, but couldn't catch him. The thief jumped in a waiting car and took off. The videographer had to tell his insurance company that his gear was stolen from his locked car, otherwise he wouln't have been covered.

Why wouldn't he be covered if a theft was running away with his gear?

Also, Chris Davis, sure I can think of it as part of business costs, but then that means it needs to be passed onto the client...I guess if you're doing 10+ weddings a yr and you expect gear to get stolen twice (probably a realistic worst case, despite trying to keep an eye out and using locks), adding an extra $100 per client is okay, but if you're only doing a handful like me (less than 5), it begins to add a lot more to your sticker price which may turn clients away.

Whether you want to admit it or not, paying for insurance and replacing broken/stolen equipment is part of the cost of doing business.

You're absolutely right Chris but in a business populated by part-timers and hobbyists doing business in the usual way means the professional's at an even greater disadvantage.

Chris, everyone knows insurance is a part of the cost of business. That's not the debate. The issue is how to still be profitable at a reasonable hourly rate while still considering the upfront investment and risk one is taking by risking personal (and rented) equipment, liability risks if you hurt someone or damage property at the venue, copyright risks, privacy risks, etc.

Making clients pay for the $500 deductible, even if spread across many clients, increases the price they pay, which may ultimately result in a lost client if it pushes them over the edge of their budget. The hard part is finding the perfect price point that allows the highest profit possible while not throwing the number of hours one works or the amount of risk one has to take out of reasonable proportion.

It's not a simple issue of "oh, this is a required expense, so we'll just make the clients pay for it...no skin off my own back." Not at all. It's as Philip says...if a professional insists of making the client pay for everything that is "required" as the cost of business: insurance, rentals, labor, gasoline, marketing, and whatever else...then when a semi-pro or hobbyist comes along and can offer a much cheaper price because he doesn't charge the client for things like insurance or labor or gasoline because he just wants an opportunity to gain reputation and build a reel, then the client will often choose the non-professional.

It's a delicate issue of how to pass on operating costs to clients. Not simple at all.

My point is that the clients *are* paying for the deductible (and every other business expense.) Even if it's not a line item on an invoice, they are paying.

That's the nature of business. You take the total cost of doing business, add a bit (or a lot) for profit, and charge customers accordingly. Of course that's an oversimplification, but to do anything less means it's a hobby and not a business.

Making clients pay for the $500 deductible, even if spread across many clients, increases the price they pay, which may ultimately result in a lost client if it pushes them over the edge of their budget.

This sure did make me smile!

If you don't think your clients should foot the deductible if something got stolen, what about the premium? Continuing along that same vein, what about every other expense one incurs while operating a business?

If you can't differentiate yourself from the non-insured part-timer in your own mind how in heaven's name are you conveying that value to the customer? More importantly, are you?

...the deductible... Even if it's not a line item on an invoice, they are paying.Indeed. But it should *never* be itemized -- yowza!

(posted just to say good heavens, I hope no one gets the wrong idea here and actually does that)

Okay, here are my thoughts. I hope I can present them logically and clearly.

As a business, of course the goal is to be profitable. On a side note, I too hope no one is naive enough to actually itemize it on the invoice unless it's for a friend who KNOWS you're doing him/her a huge favor, both in terms of your time and expenses.

However, my point is that there are situations where the client may NOT be paying for certain items such as deductibles. Ideally, they would, but sometimes, they just aren't.

So why in the world would you eat costs yourself if the goal is to be profitable? Well, here's the problem with insurance and deductibles being passed to the clients:

1. It increases your quoted rate. When a quote becomes too high, it will cost you the job entirely. So the balancing act is in deciding just how much you can increase your rate without losing the gig completely to some cheaper competitor. Or be willing to lose the gig because you are able to secure enough higher cost weddings throughout to year to make your absolute profit for the year enough (however much you define "enough.")

2. For a fledgling company still looking to build a reputation and a demo reel (or expand/improve the reel), almost no client will trust you enough to fork over a large sum of money. In their eyes, they will "trust" you and are willing to give you a chance only because they have already decided to accept a possibly lower quality production in exchange for saving tons of money. Or maybe they are part of your personal friends network, so they cut you more slack.

The decision for a business with full intentions to be profitable to accept a gig where it actually loses money is far from as simple as "do you view yourself as a part-time hobbyist or a profiting professional." A business may agree to do it for less than at-cost or even for free (aka losing money upfront) because it believes this decision will have a future return on the investment. It is arguably the most effective way to develop your skills, build a reel, and spread your reputation, so that in the business's future, you can charge the rate you really want to charge, one that will cover all your expenses and still have enough left over for profit.

Most businesses have to invest a large chunk of time, effort, and money upfront (unprofitable at first) as an investment before it starts to turn around and become profitable. Don't confuse this and boil it down to a mentality difference between a part-time hobbyist and a profiting professional. It's all about weighing the give and takes: profit/losses, operating expenses, reputation, opportunity to network, opportunity to gain experience and improve technical, creative, interpersonal, and business skills, marketing, etc.

In an ideal world, of course all business would love to pass on all expenses and still have profit on top. In the real world, business must decide if this is truly the best decision to pass on all costs to the client because there are gains that are difficult to put a price tag on: reputation, experience, development of a reel, etc. These monetarily intangible gains all lie on the fine line I've been talking about.

It's not all about what you think you're worth nor is it all about what the client thinks you're worth. It's somewhere in between. You can try to convince the client what your value is in order to increase your rate. But realize at the same time, if you have yet to develop a reputation, enough experience, and/or a good enough reel, then you're going to be hard-pressed to find a client willing to pay what you think you might deserve. No matter how highly you view yourself, your work, experience, and value...the client is quite simply going to stay skeptical until you prove yourself.

So how do you prove yourself if no one will hire you because they don't trust you without a reputation or reel? It's a catch-22. The solution might very well be eating some costs yourself upfront and not pass them onto the client, so that you can gain more clients in the future, hopefully ones willing to pay a reasonable price. If you're lucky enough to start right off with clients who pay for all expenses and pay you a profit, that's awesome. Unfortunately, for many of us, it's not so easy. We had to suck up the costs ourselves until we reached a point where we could ask for profit and still find clients willing to pay it.

3. Furthermore, consider the psychology of money. People are far more forgiving of things they receive for free, but as soon as they invest their own money into it, even if it's a relatively small sum, they suddenly become far more critical and discerning. They grow an intimate and personal attachment. That's why you meet those nightmare clients who want everything, everything the best, yet aren't even willing to pay enough to cover operating costs.

To them, $500 might be a lot of money so they understandably want the most from their money. But to us, that doesn't even cover half our operating costs for one wedding. Sure, you can say you get what you pay for, but that doesn't sit any better with the client who paid $500 when they were really expecting a $3,000 quality wedding video. If they receive a $500 quality video, they'd be furious. Even if you went above and beyond and somehow produced a $1,000 quality video and only charged $500, they would still be upset because they expected a $3,000 quality video.

Btw, I'm using these $ figures just for simplicity's sake. I know more money itself doesn't necessarily equate to higher quality.

So sometimes, eating the cost of $500 (or whatever) for operating costs yourself in order to be given the opportunity to film a wedding and build up your reel might be the better decision. Even if you hand them utter crap, they really can't complain because you did it for free and spent your own money in fact. This is also a safeguard to your reputation as you're still developing your skills. They probably won't go out and badmouth you on the web and to their friends because they didn't pay any money, but if they paid and were dissatisfied, you can bet they are going to run their mouths and spew all sorts of negativity. Not a good way to start a new business, trying to recover from a bad reputation.

When you've landed enough gigs, even if at cost to yourself, and are more confident in your reputation and quality, then you can consider standing more firmly with what you're worth. Then you can ask for clients to pay for all your operating costs, deductibles, etc. and still tack on a nice profit on top. But before then, it's a fine line between what decision to make: pass on your costs or not.

Anyways, hope that all makes sense. Cheers.

That last post was great. Very insightful and logical. Thank you very much.

You are only really running a business if all of your costs and overheads are covered by your income from paying clients. This including repayments on start-up or development loans and insurance (where is where this thread took a swerve) as well as your salary. If you rely on subsidising any aspect from personal wealth or the income from a second or third employment then it is not a viable business, more a lucrative hobby.
If you want to check how you should rate your charges to have business success there are some useful calculators in this thread.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/taking-care-business/496720-trying-establish-day-rate-help.html

Absolutely right George. That definition should stand as the benchmark.

I disagree.

Reason is simple: Most business in the beginning will have very little, if any, operating costs covered by clients. This is called initial capital investment (on top of your time investment). Yes, the goal is to eventually have everything covered by clients, but in the beginning, this is unlikely unless you're very lucky.

That said, it would be stupid to go out and keep losing money over and over on each gig. It's a calculated risk in which you've decided that losing some money upfront will mean more profit down the line. How much you lose upfront in exchange for potential future growth/gain/profit is a personal decision.

Deciding to lose money upfront in no way relegates you to a "hobbyist."

Actually Zhong I don't think there's any difference between your view and mine and George's except that you correctly cite the start up phase of the business development as a phase during which one is investing to establish the business and George and I were referring to the ongoing business.

If you are in the start up phase of any business, under-capitalization is a common problem. Doing a few free gigs and reduced rate gigs to build one’s reel is a common practice, but after a while you need to avoid them like the plague. You’re killing any referral business from the clients because the people who will be calling will want the same smoking deal. The more work you do the worse it gets. You will start losing money in “volume”.

The difference in opinion you are getting is the difference in being part time or self-employed.

When you are self employed you pay everything with OPM. (Other people’s money). Your house, car, equipment, lunch for clients, EVERYTHING that you do, consume or own is paid by customers of yours. Go on vacation? Thank you Mr. Customer. For those of us in that crowd the customer always pays. It’s not wrong, it’s self-employment.