Has anyone noticed any difference between the types of Steadyshots the Z1?

Yesterday I was covering the Pebble Beach Concourse d'Elegance and some shots needed to be done handheld. I switched back and forth between the HARD and NORMAL setting and could not see a difference. I shot it in widescreen DV (No HDV mode, althought I would not think that matters).

I still think the camera stabilization system of the Canon XL2 is one of the best. The stabilization has the feel of shooting handheld with a bigger, heavier camera.

I use medium steadyshot and can see no difference. Without steadyshot a small camera is really jerky and unstable compared to a shoulder mounted camera. Therefore steadyshot is indespensible, especially in handheld. I find as well that small camera's are less stable on the tripod, for example strong wind or a passing truck. So I leave steadyshot on all the time.

I wouldn't leave the steadyshot on when on tripod. Have you seen the effect that you get when you do a pan when the steadyshot is on and on tripod?

Also, I would really like to hear from others anout why Sony put so many type of steadyshots in the Z1. None seems as good as the Canon cameras. Not that I am sold to Canon.

I use medium steadyshot and can see no difference. Without steadyshot a small camera is really jerky and unstable compared to a shoulder mounted camera. Therefore steadyshot is indespensible, especially in handheld. I find as well that small camera's are less stable on the tripod, for example strong wind or a passing truck. So I leave steadyshot on all the time.

I wouldn't leave the steadyshot on when on tripod.

I'd urge everyone to try this in their specific circumstances. There are a lot of variables, such as the amount of zoom and the speed of your pans. I haven't worked with the Z1 enough yet to have an opinion, but have used it extensively on the VX-2000 and PDX-10.

I shoot performance video of our operas from over 100' away from the stage and most of the time I'm at maximum zoom (500mm equivalent 35mm SLR lens). I also use a 2x tele extenter sometimes (1000mm in 35mm terms). These shots are completely unacceptable on my Miller DS-5 tripod UNLESS I turn ON steadyshot. It does a great job of smoothing out all the little bumps and the vibration inherent in this kind of shot. Out of maybe 60 hours of tape I can only remember one minor glitch caused by Steadyshot, and that was when I made a jerky camera movement. Slow pans and tilts in this kind of shot shouldn't be an issue with the Steadyshot system.

That makes sense.

I have an old Miller 50 tripod which I use with the Z1. It can support even a heavy Arri 35mm motion picture camera so I would not worry too much about these issues.

The real question was what the heck SOny puts out so many types of Steadyshot if there is not much of difference between them. That's the question of the original thread.



I'd urge everyone to try this in their specific circumstances. There are a lot of variables, such as the amount of zoom and the speed of your pans. I haven't worked with the Z1 enough yet to have an opinion, but have used it extensively on the VX-2000 and PDX-10.

I shoot performance video of our operas from over 100' away from the stage and most of the time I'm at maximum zoom (500mm equivalent 35mm SLR lens). I also use a 2x tele extenter sometimes (1000mm in 35mm terms). These shots are completely unacceptable on my Miller DS-5 tripod UNLESS I turn ON steadyshot. It does a great job of smoothing out all the little bumps and the vibration inherent in this kind of shot. Out of maybe 60 hours of tape I can only remember one minor glitch caused by Steadyshot, and that was when I made a jerky camera movement. Slow pans and tilts in this kind of shot shouldn't be an issue with the Steadyshot system.

medium steadyshot will make no difference to your picture even if you pan fast. If you use maximum steadyshot this will cause bluring etc, and suggest you never use it ever. All things in moderation.

I used the "maximum steadyshot" (HARD) as you said and did not notice any difference, not even the bluring you are talking about. So I go back to my first question in this post.

medium steadyshot will make no difference to your picture even if you pan fast. If you use maximum steadyshot this will cause bluring etc, and suggest you never use it ever. All things in moderation.

Has anyone noticed any difference between the types of Steadyshots the Z1?
I shot it in widescreen DV (No HDV mode, althought I would not think that matters).


This is where the difference lies. In shooting HDV, I do notice a difference when using the medium and hard setting.

Do a test and render out to a Media Player 9 file so that you can view the difference on you computer. Track a moving subject and you will clearly see the difference between the two modes.

Cheers

I am doing a Helicopter shoot with the Z1 and am trying to find the right Steady Shot setting for the shot.

I did a test and went up in the chopper, I did it with no Steadyshot, and with Standard. i am shooting at full wide on the zoom.

The Standard definitly helped but there was still noticable vibration.
I am not doing any pans or tilts just straight shooting from the back seat.
I wished I had of used Hard to see what effect it would have had, but no time...

I want to get this right before I spend $1200 per hour heli time.
Any help would be great.

Thanx

I always use the HARD setting for grabbed interviews- there is a difference, you can almost feel the Steadyshot "lock in" as opposed to the other settings.
As for using Steadyshot whilst on a tripod, that's a definite no-no as far as I'm concerned. Stop panning and you will get a drift at the end that is just not acceptable...

Robin

I think I read that you lose about 5% of your pixels when using steadyshot mode. Is this correct and does that percentage increase with the hard mode?

I used the hard mode once will shooting from a convertible driving on the single lane very curvy road to Hana in Maui. The footage looks a little jerky but I don't see any bluring.
Also quite a few artifacts due to fast moving foilage in the scene...

I think I read that you lose about 5% of your pixels when using steadyshot mode. Is this correct and does that percentage increase with the hard mode?
This is not correct with the Z1 or FX1 as they use optical stabilisation. The loss of pixels is the case with cheaper cameras that use electronic stabilisation.

I did think it was digital so thanks for clearing that up for me, but I still think some pixels are used as I read here:

Optical Image Stabilization Always better than electronic image stabilization, optical image stabilization does not involve as many pixels on the CCD as the electronic method which frees them up for other, more important, things. The stabilization seemed to work fine, though it's tough to make any major improvements.

Come on John Poore - how on earth can the hard Steadyshot setting 'cause blurring'?

The difference between the settings is down to a combination of the vibrating element travel and the 'stickiness' in the system. The Hard setting will try and 'hang onto' the image for as long as possible, such that at the start of a pan (say) you might be able to notice a slight hysterisis effect in the v'finder. You camera is moving but the OIS is hanging onto the image because it thinks your pan is the start of camera shake.

At the opposite end of the scale the Steadyshot is less effective (which is why it's designed for wide-angle converters) but at the same time it's less 'sticky'. This means you won't have the lens hood appearing momentarily in scene as you shake the camera violently.

Jeff - there's no 'loss of pixels' in Sony's Steadyshot. The internal elements are vibrating to counteract your shakes, sending the same image to the chips. DIS systems do indeed hunt for an image within a bigger area on the chip, but these systems are generally inferior. They can be made a lot more powerful though but their side-effects become noticeable as in the Hard OIS setting.

Taylor: I'd go up with the Hard setting selected if I were you. The side-effects are a lot less noticeable than the camera shake will be!

tom.

Well call me satisfied, thanks for the answers.

Hello guys,

I don't know if it's my particular HVR-Z1U, but has anyone ever noticed the following issue:

When the Steadyshot is ON (on any of the 3 settings), there's occasionally a noticeable pulsating slight shift (looks like a slight jerk) of the image while doing a zoom-out while panning left or right. The pulse happens with the frequency of about 2 times per second (even if I do a completely smooth zoom out with panning). It is not consistent, but happens often enough to get annoying. This happens both handheld and on a quality tripod. None of my other Sony cameras with OIS have this sort of behavior. It seems like some false optical motion prediction kicks in at those times.

I sent camera to Sony twice to fix a backfocus issue, while also asking them to look into this Steadyshot pulsating. They replaced the lens assembly the first time (messing up the backfocus even more), finally fixed the backfocus the second time, but after both times the occasional pulse of the image while using Steadyshot and zooming out while panning is still there.

My question is, has anybody else noticed something like that? Or is it just my Z1 camera? I'm sure that if it's only my camera, then I'll have to live with it, in slight pain (because Sony obviously doesn't want to acknowledge the problem). But if it's an issue that affects most Z1's then I will feel much better.

I have some good samples of this behavior, but unfortunately don't have space to host it. I hope I described the issue clearly. Please respond if you have experienced the same problem or if you have any ideas on this subject. As I said, none of my other Sony cameras have such behavior (DCR-VX1000E and DCR-TRV900E).

Thanks.

Ruslan.

Don't forget that you can use image stabilization software on top of the camera's stabilizer. Go to goodervideo.com for a demonstration. Anything but dramatic bumps becomes very smooth.

Thank Marcus for the software suggestion.

However, I wanted to know if any of the people had the same issues with Steadyshot that I did. Since nobody is responding, I don't really know what to think. There's plenty of people on this forum with Z1's and nobody cares to respond whether they have the same issue or they don't. It's a simple yes or know question. Oh well... I guess I'll have to go all the way from South Jersey to B&H in NY just to see if their demo units have the same problem.

Honestly Rusian, I couldn't quite figure out what you were talking about or if it had happened on my Z1 or not. All I can say is that if it has happened then I didn't find it objectionable enough to cause concern. It would be pretty normal for steadyshot to cause a slight jump while panning at certain speeds on a tripod, and all my Sony cameras show this to some degree.

anyway, due to specifications of mpeg2/HDV it is not recommendable to use such camera in situation where the Steadyshot is put under heavy work and particularly on moving pictures like you will probably record from an helicopter.
you could be very disappointed by the result of mpeg2 high compression on unstable camera.

It's a simple yes or know question.

Yes, I will see occasional stutters if panning my Z1 (in HDV mode, set to HARD) without following a subject. That's exactly what I would expect to happen. Ditto, panning and zooming at the same time. It's not just the Z1, as I found out the hard way. I ruined several shots a couple of years ago by leaving OIS on my PD150 - check out the zoom out of the mini stand (union jack roof of mini):

http://www.mdma.tv/frankfurt03.html

pulsing (watch the spotlights in the ceiling). Mea culpa. Left it on; oopsie. Steadyshot is utterly confused at the conflicting requirements. And no, it's not the web compression, it's very obvious on the original DV file.

More 'nature of the beast' than 'design flaw'? IOW, 'HARD' is there for MPEG2, which needs all the help it can get, but at the cost of a 'no pan, no zoom' diet of shots.

So I guess that makes it No, but yes, but... :-)

* with reference to Vicky Pollard, international spokesperson for Little Britain

I'd hardly called them 'ruined shots' Matt. And I'd be hard pressed to lay the blame on the PD170's OIS, whatever the speed of your pan (zooms are unaffected of course, unlike EIS systems). You talk of Steadyshot getting 'utterly confused' yet the vibrating elements are only responding to camera body movements, and the image on the chips is of no consequence.

As such I can't be with you on your thoughts that MPEG2 needs 'all the help it can get'. The OIS elements couldn't care less what compression is being applied to the digital file further down the line - all they want to do is keep bending the light in equal and opposite measures to the camera movements you're applying.

tom.

You talk of Steadyshot getting 'utterly confused' yet the vibrating elements are only responding to camera body movements, and the image on the chips is of no consequence.

But a steady shot contains elements that don't move with relation to, say, the edges. If you pan or zoom, the shot isn't 'steady', so the juddering is from the OIS trying to steady a moving shot, running out of adjustment, resetting, and starting over again. I use the 'confused' to anthropomorphise a problem that's clearly due to the operator. :)

As such I can't be with you on your thoughts that MPEG2 needs 'all the help it can get'.

If I may elucidate... MPEG2 compression works well with static shots. Pans over a detailed scene (e.g. trees, water) in HDV are the most challenging for the compression system. Therefore, if you have a nominally static shot that will be subject to unitentional wobble (vibration, hand held, etc) the background will not be static, and lean towards the problems with fast pans on detailed scenes - hence a good hard amount of OIS will help stabilise the background and save the compression budget for generating nice pictures.

You elucidate beautifully Matt, and I agree with your MPEG2 thoughts. I had read your post to mean that the digital compression somehow changed the way the SSSS worked.

Of course I'm assuming that the OIS system as used on the Z1 is purely optical, and has no XL1s type 'electronic help'. Sony are getting very good at EIS (see the A1) so it may well be that as the acronym SSSS covers both technologies, so too are the technologies intertwined.

tom.

Thanks guys. At least I'm not the only one who is seeing this issue. Matt, "judder", "confused", "resetting" are very good words that you came up with to describe this pulsating effect.

I feel a bit better now. However, I'm still puzzled as to why hasn't this ever happen on neither one of my DCR-VX1000E's nor DCR-TRV900E, which provide OIS that's just as effective as the one on Z1, but don't have any Steadyshot "resetting" effect while zooming and panning at the same time. So this small, but annoying trouble started with PD150 then?

Boyd, if you have an e-mail address with large storage, I can send you a few seconds DV (or HDV) sample file that best showcases this behavior. Just like you, I'm also shooting a lot of stage shows (not opera, but theatre) from far enough distances to have the need to use Steadyshot. And that's when this "pulse", when it happens, is really getting on my nerves.

Thanks Rusian, but I'll pass on the footage. I use my Z1 on a tripod from over 100' away, and just shot a performance using the Century Optics 1.6x telextender lens. I wondered which steadyshot option would be best, and did a few very unscientific tests which didn't help much. I think I set it for standard.

I notice this "judder" effect when zoomed full in, which would be the 35mm equivalent of 640mm. I think that's the steadyshot's best attempt to steady the image during vibration on the theatre's wood floor, or my own shaky camerawork. I saw the exact same thing with my PDX-10 and a 2x telephoto which would be the 35mm equivalent of 1000mm.

Again, I always just assumed that was the best it could do at an extreme zoom setting. I never noticed it to be associated with zooming however. I don't think my camera needs service, but if you're convinced there's a problem with yours then I guess you'll have to send it back to Sony again.

I have experienced the pulsating effect (jerky motion) that Ruslan described on the first post with my new FX1. I compared my FX1 with another FX1 and finally the people at the service were convinced that my camera was defective and now they will give me a new camera.

Thanks guys. At least I'm not the only one who is seeing this issue. Matt, "judder", "confused", "resetting" are very good words that you came up with to describe this pulsating effect.

Ruslan, one day this summer I had my Z1 focused on a shrine "gate". The camera was stationary on a tripod.
As I looked at the viewfinder I saw the gate begin to sway!
I thought it was an earthquake beginning!!
I SWITCHED OFF the steadishot.......and the swaying stopped.
Maybe it is too simple , and I may be wrong - but if you are using a tripod or other camera support system you MUST switch off the steadishot.
If the steadishot is on and the camera is not unstable the steadishot will try to compensate for motion that is not there. That means it will begin to create its own shudders and jerks...........
I have assigned the steadishot to one of the buttons so I can easily switch to on/off depending on whether I am using a tripod or handheld.

Look at this handheld stuff that my wife shot on hard while holding the camera by the handle:

http://www.b-scenefilms.com/sp.html

Note particularly the zoomed in shot of the Chihuahua on the girl's lap. You can see some hard jerks in the steadyshot effect. I have noticed that the hard setting seems to have a lock effect. So that when I hold the camera and try to be very steady with it I can see the SS hard effect lock in and then I can move and it seems somewhat stable.

when I hold the camera and try to be very steady with it I can see the SS hard effect lock in and then I can move and it seems somewhat stable.

Shaughan, it more or less supports what I was saying above.

When you are holding your Z1 "very steady" it is the same situation as being on a tripod.
THe Z1 has know way of knowing if the shot is being taken "handheld and steady" or from a tripod.
The cameras steadishot function should be OFF when the camera is steady!

So how should you take take this video to avoid the SS effects? Use a tripod for all the shots - planes landing, taking off, dogs on laps etc. and switch off the SS function. For the ones walking toward planes either do handheld plus SS on as you did in the movie - or get some form of steadicam support. Remember that even with a steadicam support the SS function should be OFF.

Not trying to discount any opinions here. Just providing a specific example of my experience :)

Well, I'm from the other camp. My Z1 always has the SSSS on, in the 'normal' position, on and off tripods, sitting on walls and the tarmac, running with it inches off the floor.

As a wedding photographer there's just no time to go switching the OIS on and off even with a button dedicated to it and anyway, marquees very often have floors that wobble as people pass by my tripod.

So to be on the safe side and to ensure that all is well when I quickly release the cam for a quick hand-held shot, I leave SSSS on. I've done tests where I've left the Z1 on, on a rock solid tripod and never seen one indication that SSSS should be turned off.

It's not surprising really as the mechanism is waiting to detect camera body movement before swinging into action. With no movement it simply lies in wait as far as I can see. Maybe I've been lucky, maybe other Z1s are set up differently.

tom.

I'm pretty much in your camp Tom. I find that the steadyshot really helps on the tripod when I'm zoomed all the way in and I almost never notice any problems from it. But if I'm doing a wide shot on a tripod I turn it off (I have a button programmed for this), just in case.

You mean a wide *panning* shot Boyd? Why switch it off just for wide?

I have this ace non-distorting aspherical 0.5x wide-angle converter that *just* vignettes the very corners of the frame - by maybe 4 pixels. I never bother to switch the Z1 into its 'wide' SSSS position as I really fail to see the point.

But if I'm being critical I can see what the SSSS is doing for me by way of compensation as I hand-hold and run with the camera. I simply watch the corners of the frame on a PC monitor (it's well masked by all TVs). You can see the floating element OIS working really hard to smooth your shots by the varying amount of vignetting that occurs.

It really is amazing technology. One of the cleverest, most transparent, useful, effective and (presumably) cheap aids to filmmaking to come our way. I am indeed impressed.

tom.

You mean a wide *panning* shot Boyd?

No, I was thinking of a wide stationary shot. I leave steadyshot on sometimes with a wide panning shot, and have pondered this for awhile, trying to see the difference with/without. It may help smooth out a pan or tilt in a wide shot. But for a locked down wide shot it doesn't usually seem necessary and I assume it's just one more thing which *might* affect the quality of the image. But outside on a windy day I would leave it on to help with any camera shake caused by wind gust.

I have played with the different Z1 steadyshot options a number of times and I'm still not sure I can tell the difference, so I usually just leave it set to normal.