Anhar, thanks for the suggestion, but according to me. Post stabilization can't work. Each field is a blur. Can't fix that... But maybe after we get the UNTOUCHED file posted we will all know more.

Douglas. I've spent some time doing internet searches for John Cline, NASCAR. I can't find anything about this. I've done searches for NASCAR Archives, and other variations on the theme. I cant find anything about this on the net. I would think that an archivist for NASCAR would be easy to find. Can you assist me in locating any information confirming this NASCAR Z1 usage?

Dogma = absolute belief. Catma = relative disbelief: I'd like to confirm this usage and try to find out how they have mounted this cam.

No offense meant... Ken E.

I don't think John or his brother would be posting footage. John is a personal friend from Albuquerque, NM, a power user of Sony Vegas, and I don't think he'd ever lie about such a thing. Are you suggesting I'm lying about the moto-cross footage that I shot for CMT? Or that I didn't shoot on my ATV on Sunday?
No, I wouldn't use your footage as you posted it.
I can say that since we bought our 3 Z1's, I've not turned on a DV camera in several months. National Geo, CMT, and several projects have all been shot with the Z1. After having just returned from Australia, I saw footage on television from the Z1 and FX1 all over the place. Just on the bay in a boat, I saw a video crew with 3-4 Z1's. They're around. They're being used. HDV is quite popular.
And there will be people who don't like HDV just like there are those that don't like fast food.

Without an original m2t, I'm not really able to comment. Deinterlacing and field order are not really relevant, although you likely want to deinterlace, given what you're trying to do.

Douglas, I never intended to say you were lying. I would love to see the footage you shot with your ATV. As of yet, I have not. I can only say that I don't trust anyone, not even god, more than I trust my own experience. I need to confirm that a Sony HDV camera can work when exposed to minor vibration. I understand your qualifications as a professional, I've looked you up on the net. I am trying to show respect, and express my doubt. That is a difficult paradox. And if you don't like my footage, and according to me the mount is great. As demonstrated by my 170 on the mount. What do I do? Do I go out and buy another HDV on your word? Also, am I wrong to say that if I end up de-interlacing the HDV footage to make it palatable, aren't I losing resolution, and at what point does the HDV begin to shine when half the resolution is removed? Sony is finished trying to repair my camera. I have read that you have close ties to Sony, true or not, I don't know. But if you do, it might behoove Sony to give my camera a little more attention, or replacement. This thread can't be what they want to see. I don't want to be here either. I was at a point of conclusion about my camera having limitations until you posted your activities with a Z1. I am evidently not the only one having these problems. See Carroll Lam's posting. So for us who use the camera that way and are having problems, we would like to find out what the true facts are. Is it the format, or my individual camera with a problem? And if it's my camera only. Why doesn't Sony stand behind it? It appears to me they may have taken the easy way out by quoting some paragraph on page 95 in the owners manual about not guaranteeing the camera under unusual conditions, like exposed to vibrations, or submerged in water. I am willing to accept that Sony is done with my camera too. I am willing to go buy another HDV, but as of yet, I don't feel confident about the format. Post your results and I might not have to believe you or anyone. I can see for my self. A belief is a pretense to know. I need to know via my own experience. Show me please. And even then, what are my odds of getting another problem? What percentage of the Sony's have this problem? That question does not negate the need for someone who has had success with the camera exposed to minor vibrations to post their results. We need to know if it is possible to get good video under such conditions.


I love the format too, I understand why so many are in use already. It's a fantastic break through. That has nothing to do with a possible limitation when exposed to minor vibrations. But if it has limitations, that needs to be known as well. Right now, according to me and my experience, there is reasonable doubt.

Can your friend John Cline make a clip available, and can he explain how he has the camera mounted?

With respect.. Ken E.

If you could measure that frequency, you could build a damping system to compensate (with the correct calculated damping ratio, dont ask me now its been a while since I've done those calculations:).


Anhar Hussain Miah

P.S as soon as you get the original UNTOUCHED m2t files pass it through that software I recommended, and get back to me on that.

I suggest you drive to Albuquerque or Phoenix where John does most of their work.
My motorcycle footage was on the VASST site for several weeks; there is other footage there now, albeit shot from the platform on a pickup truck bed(that was idling).
Looking at your footage, it's clear you've got some editing issues happening. I've offered to look at the m2t file, but you've not posted it.
Without that, all I can go on is what you've displayed in the mp4 file. The issues seen in that file aren't related to vibration at all. They're editing/workflow problems. But, I'm not going to attack your editing knowledge the way you've attacked the camera and/or format, which happens to be used for production and broadcast by groups as diverse as MTV and PBS, National Geographic, Discovery Channel, ABC, CBS, and many, many others. Perhaps we're all just idiots out there making great footage, revenue, and doing what we do. (create/produce/deliver)

It's not my job to convince you of anything. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you. It's probably time to move on/move up. 4:2:2 cams are all over the place. Maybe they'll work for you. Frustrated or not, the suggestion that anyone is "making any of this up" is offensive. That said, this thread is pretty bloated and I don't know that I've got anything further to add to it.

What you actually need is an Active vibration damping system.

If thats what you would like try contacting these guys, they usually manufacture "Isolation Tables" for optical labs etc


http://www.techmfg.com/

Anhar Hussain Miah

That doesn't seem practical for this sort of application.

Ken, there is the possibility that the single-section Glidecam arm may be the weakest link in the equation. Although as it has been pointed out, stabilizer arms don't deal with high frequency vibration as well as low, there is a possibility that other arms may dampen the enough of the effect to eliminate the problem. Obviously there is a cost attached to replacing this element. The new Smooth Shooter arm from Glidecam would be one possibility; the Flyer arm from Tiffen would likely be the most effective in this weight class.

It would obviously be a shame in that the system you have was working for you in the SD realm, but if you absolutely needed to go HD at the current time, it might be the least expensive component to examine.

Douglas, I am sorry if I insulted you. I am more interested in science than belief. Science is based on doubt. I was expressing questions I felt where in line with my experience. When I expressed belief in this thread, I was shot down big time, and I apologized for my beliefs and went back to the pursuit of facts.

What does raw footage have to do with editing or workflow? How could I possibly get better footage by editing. Cut out the bad stuff? And in this situation, that's close to 80 to 90 percent. And de-interlacing HDV footage to make it work, seems counter productive. Also, I don't know if de-interlacing the HDV 1080i would help at all and is yet to be proven.

I'm about to make one final statement, then I'm out of here.

My experience says that my camera has a problem that limits it's use to totally vibration free mounts. It seems that some people are having some luck with their Sony HDV's in some applications like mine. Some others besides me are experiencing the same trouble.

Good luck to all of us... Ken E.

I am evidently not the only one having these problems. See Carroll Lam's posting.
Be aware that the video I collected was NOT on any form of isolated mount - it was basically resting on the hood of the vehicle - so I am not surprised that the resulting video showed the effects of vibration.

As I stated in my prior posting, none of the facts presented to date can allow one to conclude that the FX1/Z1U have vibration problems any worse than other camcorders of similar resolution.

The fact that the PD170 did not show the same problem under the same conditions only proves that the PD170 is not as sensitive to vibration as the FX1/Z1U. Nothing else.

Expecting a camcorder with over twice the vertical resolution to respond the same under the same conditions as the lower resolution is not something on which one should rely.

This is certainly an interesting problem to investigate. As time permits I expect to try other forms of isolation to get better hood mount video that that illustrated in my posting.

Carroll Lam

it seems like some sorting out is required here, and Heath knew I have both FX1 and Glidecam V8, he asked me to join this thread.

Why not continue the examination here productively. I will offer my time and equipment to overcome this issue if everybody contributes ideas and suggestions.

I have FX1 and HC1, Glidecam V8. I don't have ATV, but I do have the mount for V8 to be mounted on cars and trucks and my company own Honda Stepwagon.

If everybody agree that the cooporation effort can be covered in my magazine articles aside from this thread, I don't mind spending time for this.

I think it would be great if you join in, Kaku. Especially if you can make some independent tests with similar setups.

I commend you to read my two posts at:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=351943&postcount=85

and

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=351980&postcount=88

for what I believe to be a pretty good summary of the facts as known to date.

We welcome your inputs and any tests you can do to isolate the many variables in this situation.

Carroll Lam

Carroll,

You already had them sorted out to start rolling. Very nice, Thank you.

I guess we can continue discussing about it in one of the threads.