Hi there,

I'm looking to upgrade my tripod for my JVC HM700. I'm wanting to buy a tripod that will last me for years and still be usable when and if I upgrade the 700.

I'm quite liking the look of the Sachtler ENG 2 CF HD, anyone have opinions on it with a HM700? I am happy with a bigger heavier tripod, is this going to be suitable? I'm not sure what head to buy, but going to get the legs first.

I know they do a non HD version, the ENG 2 CF but how does that compare?

I'm not worrying about cost, just want the best possible tripod. I do ENG, some docu and a bit of corporate.

Cheers
Lenny

Hi, Lenny...............

Can't give you any info on the mentioned tripod, though (and Sachtler will take an exceedingly dim view of this, I'm sure) I'm interested in why you picked that very support?

I know nothing about the JVC HM700, so some info on same would be usefull, as well as what you load it up with, and all that stuff (you know, minor details, but........).

Also, what you're using for (camera) support now would be a good add to the mix, so at least we know where you're coming from on the support front.

One thing that concerns me greatly is compatability.

If you go for a Sachtler set of sticks, you're pretty well tied to a Sachtler head, all of which have stepped counterbalance, a curse I've not been able to get around in all the months I've had to play with the FSB 6 I've got here for review.

Vintens will not interface with Sachtler sticks, so, if you want infinately variable counterbalance, you're stuck with Vinten sticks and heads.

If that is not an issue for you (er, why not?) then, yep, go for Sachtler, they're great heads and I have no doubt the sticks are pretty damn sharp as well (not something that applies to the 75 CF's I have with the FSB6, but they're an errant effort at minimalism that sounded like a far better idea than they turned out to be in practice).

As you can see, it's not quite as simple as "buy the best and it'll be ok", 'cos sometimes it might not be.

(Dear readers, anyone who thought the previous sentence implied that Sachtler was "the best" would be mistaken, it's not. There are other manufacturers who are just as good or even better, it's just that Sachtler is the one which falls into the "Can't go wrong if you buy IBM" frame. Vinten [and others] never get a look in as they are either associated with high end studio systems or movie sets, which is simply not true).

Anyway, my friend, if this is helpfull, all well and good, if not, well, no harm in trying.

Looking forward to the next exciting installment.


CS

Hi Chris,

Thanks for your response, which is pretty helpful.

To maybe explain a bit better, I've been a stills and video guy professionally for 25 years, mainly stills but I started off on 16mm film, then U-matic, MII and Betacam SP, then away from video for a while. I had a Canon XL1 for a while, and then recently after redundancy and starting freelance in photography and video production, I got a JVC HM-700.

I have always used solid tripods from my years of film, then medium and large format photography. Sinar 5x4's... I don't like lighter flimsier tripods, and am happy to humph a heavier duty tripod as I appeciate total solidity.

I had a wee play with this very tripod with some of the broadcast guys I deal with, BBC Scotland news crews. I really liked it, although saying that they had heavier cameras on it.

I load my 700 up with a standard IDX battery, Senn Me-66 and probably soon rails and matt box and maybe a nanoflash or similar.

I want a tripod that I don't have to replace, I am currently using a Libec LS38 and although it's great for the money, I do feel it a bit lacking in some areas.

I'd be interested in which Vinten you reckon is comparable to the ENG 2 CF? I'm just buying the sticks this month, will be buying a head next month or month after.

So is the Vinten continous variable counterbalance THAT much better??

Some of the sticks I see seem a bit flimsy, but I'd really need a play with them...

Cheers
Lenny

I'll go one better.................

Fire a mail to Peter.Harman@VitecGroup.com, (he's the Vinten Product Manager) giving him your kit details and wishes and get him to sort you with a bit of hands on play time, he's very good at that.

I think that once you've tried his suggested option, he'll have to send a squad of SAS 'round to get it back off you!


CS

In the interests of fairness here.................

As I keep forgetting that Sachtler do testers too - fire a copy of the mail you send to Peter to Barbara.Jaumann@VitecGroup.com (she's the Product Manager for Sachtler) and see what she can rustle up for you.

That will give you the opportunity to test the two offerings side by side.

She and Peter are old mates BTW, so don't worry about hurting anyones feelings.


CS

Cheers Chris,

Barbara has already emailed me, will also contact Peter though.. :-)

Barbara has already emailed me


No suprises there, both she and Peter are pretty "on the ball" and both keep a close watch on what happens here at DVinfo.

Do keep us posted, I'm fascinated as to what you think of each of the systems tested.


CS

Oh, BTW.................

Alluded to but not mentioned in my first post, as money hasn't been talked about as yet, if you REALLY want to spend some serious dosh on a system, have a squizz at this little gem...........

1030HD (http://www.ocon.com/products/fluid-heads/1030hd0.html)

Mate that with a same make set of sticks and it will leave a hole in your wallet the size of the Grand Canyon, but that's one SERIOUS piece of camera support.


CS

Vintens will not interface with Sachtler sticks, so, if you want infinately variable counterbalance, you're stuck with Vinten sticks and heads.

Vinten Vision 100 worked fine on Sachtler ENG 2 D HD. And some of the older Vision heads worked just fine for the Reuters guys in Oslo today, ENG 2 CF HD. Why shouldn`t other vinten heads work with sachtler sticks?

To me the speedlock sticks, both the HD version and standard are the best run`n gun sticks around, fast, relatively light and good build quality.

As for build quality, at the moment in Oslo with all the news crews being good proof of what to get and not. Vinten, Sachtler and some Millers. Could not spot any Cartonis(they do make some decent systems) or Libec(which plainly is rubbish anyway). A good set of sticks and a proper head is a investment that will outlast many cameras, electronics are dead cheap now a days, mechanics still cost to manufacture to precision.

I have the ENG 2 CF HD. It is excellent. Very stable, very quick to work with, and it is well made.

I use it with my XDCAM 700, sometimes with a Letus, EX3, Nanoflash. It works great.

I shoot a lot in the mountains, and it does not flex or bend in the wind. (It, also has not blown over... unlike an older vinten I used to have).

I shoot a broad variety of subjects and I have found that it is really versatile. The only thing I can suggest is that it is perhaps a bit heavy if you are just shooting in and around town and carrying it all the time.

Ben Ruffell Director of Photography (http://www.ruff.co.nz)

That was based on my tests with a Vinten VB, 3 AS and V 3 on a set of Sachtler 75 CF SpeedLock sticks - no go, in that yep, I could get the head in the bowl and get the clamp knob to seat on the underside (just) but there was no angular adjustment whatsoever.

The same test with the head from the Libec RS 250 on the Sachtler did exactly the same thing.

The same test with the Vintens on two sets of Manfrotto sticks determined that they would mount but angular adjustment was rediculously small.

So, fine, one swallow and all that, but not having the full range of sticks from all the manufacturers to do all the tests with, leaves a rather large hole in the database with regards to compatability, so I'd never recommend doing a mix and match unless there was a cast iron guarantee they are compatible.

And I sure as heck wouldn't shell out a couple of grand on a mix and match system without that same guarantee.

The pro's get to play with the gear before they shell out, the vast majority here on DVinfo are going blind buying on - line, not the same deal at all.

As for your comment about a support system being an investment, couldn't be more true and certainly one worth getting right first time and always, always pay more than you can afford, you'll thank yourself down the track.


CS

Cheers guys, it has to be a 100mm bowl, and Barbara is also recommending the Speedlock. it would have to be the 100mm CF version. Thoughts on speedlocks? I like the idea for speed of setting up.

I really like the beefiness of the hd versions, liking the 2:2:2 configuration. Surely with tripods the heavier and sturdier the better, as long a you are prepared to carry them?

Most of the news guys here use Sachtler so I get more chance to see them. My supplier Creative Video don't seem to show much vinten on their website and the ones I saw looked a bit "weedier" than the Sachtler. Also harder to browse vinten website...

I would have thought a 100mm vinten head would fit Sachtler legs?

I'm buying next month so plenty time to research... :-)

You can't get past "beefy", end of story.

2:2:2 is, er scary - where does that last 2 come from - ain't seen one of those - something new from Sachtler?

OK, I'm going to throw in a wild card here Lenny, whatever you do, do not make any decision till you have decided on a decent head.

Sticks are good, but they're useless without a decent head (and vice versa), they are a team.

Camera support is "a system".

Check out all the available options for heads, decide what you like and take it from there.

Sounds like you're making progress though, well done.


CS

Sorry, meant 2:2, tying on my iPad.. ;-)

I've not decided anything yet, still doing my research and I appreciate a system... I believe in doing all my research before spending what is a lot of money! ;-)

The problem I have is I haven't liked any of the Vinten legs I've seen out on the road, I'm a news photographer to trade and I know a lot of the tv news crews. They mainly use Sachtler here, the guys with Vintens (not sure models) just didn't seem sturdy to me..

Hi Lenny,

I have this Sachtler 100 ENG HD 2CF tripod. I am using it with the OConnor 1030 HDs fluid head. It has got a stepless counterbalance. Am currently using this to film with my DSLR - Canon EOS 1D Mark IV. Will have to wait till the next year before I take the plunge and buy a 4k/5k camera (counting my coins now). :-)

Here is a link to a brief description about this tripod. Sachtler CF 100 ENG HD 2 CF Tripod | Diary - Tales from India's Wilds (http://www.indiawilds.com/diary/sachtler-cf-100-eng-hd-2-cf-tripod/) ofcourse it is not as comprehensive as Chris Soucy writes his reviews. :)

Cheers,
Sabyasachi
PS: Barbara was a big big help in me getting the tripod.

Hi Sabyasachi,

Nice review of the tripod. I'm a pro stills guy and quite often have a 400mm 2.8 on a set of sticks. In days gone by I've had up to a 2000mm mirror on two tripods so I'm used to long toms... (ex Police Photographer)

I was always brought up to get the heaviest tripod I could carry, although age is now creeping up with me. ;-) I'm imagining the difference between the HD and normal tripod was noticeable, did you try the non HD version first?

I like the twin legs all the way down, does this not mean the designation is 2:2:2 as I mentioned earlier? In other words at full extension there are 2 tubes on each leg at ground level? It seems from web pics that the HD versions have twin tubes all the way down and the non HD versions have a single tube at the bottom?

I'm just wondering if the only difference between the ENG2 CF HD and the Speedlock CF HD is the Speedlock catches, did you try them?

My tripod is normally in the boot of my car, then carried about job so my worry is that I buy the lighter one then regret it. I'm not hiking for miles carrying it so not too bothered about extra weight.

Cheers
Lenny

I have the ENG 2 CF HD. It is excellent. Very stable, very quick to work with, and it is well made.


Hi Ben,

Did you try the Speedlock CF HD out? I really think I'm going for the HD version, either the ENG2 CF or the Speedlock CF.

I'm just wondering the pros and cons of the speedlocks over the normal clamps?

I just haven't seen a set of Vinten sticks that seem as sturdy. I may end up putting my stills gear on this tripod with a 400mm 2.8 and extenders on certain news jobs. As a news guy, sometimes I have a need for really long lenses and solid support..

Cheers
Lenny

Regarding the Vinten infinetly variable counterbalance, surely if you use the same camera all the time, with a fairly standard configuration then is it not easier and faster to have a click counterbalance? You leave it dialed in, or you know with different configuration it is a certain click?

Just wondering as in ENG a lot of it comes down to speed...

I'm presuming this discussion could go on for weeks, but surely if infinetly variable counterbalance was crucial then a firm like Sachtler would have it? Presuming it's not technically difficuly to have a contstantly variable rather than preset clicks?????

Lenny

Ah, well, er, yes and er, no.

Barbara and Pete fight like cat and dog over this subject, and I've been known to wade in on occasions as well.

OK, from the top.

The whole idea of counterbalance is to keep the camera under control at all times, whether you're holdng the pan bar or not.

If the COG (centre of gravity) of the slide plate, camera and accessories has been correctly set perfectly above the head pivot point and perfect CB (counterbalance) is applied, then no matter where the camera is tlted, +/- 90 degress, it will stay exactly where it's put.

If the CB is too weak, the camera will start to drop when the pan bar is released. If the CB is too strong, the camera will start to rise back towards horizontal.

In fixed/ single spring heads, there is only one perfect COG/ mass line (on a COG/ mass graph) which will acheive perfect CB, so if your camera COG/mass combination doesn't land perfectly on that line, shed loads of tilt drag need to be applied to keep the camera where it's put OR accept that the camera will "do it's own thing" whenever not under direct control - both of which are exceedingly tedious and bloody tiring.

Worse, if you go the full drag route, zoom shots become steadier but wide shots become a complete pain in the whatsit as wide shots use much faster panning rates.

Conversly, if you go the no drag route, wide shots are easy but long shots are all over the place as you fight the head all the way.

In stepped CB systems, there are a range of parallel perfect COG/ mass lines (on the COG/ mass graph), the number depending on the number of step settings. If your camera COG/ mass figure falls perfectly on any of those lines, you've hit the jackpot and the camera will stay put wherever it's placed with zero tilt drag applied.

If IT DOESN'T hit one of those lines, tilt drag is required to get the camera to hold, the amount dependent on how far away the cameras COG/ mass figure is from the nearest line. Thus, if your standard rig doesn't hit a line, you know that some of your low end drag settings are gone for good, again, a pain on wide shots.

In a contiuously variable CB head, the COG/ mass line can be set wherever it is required to match the COG/ mass figure of the camera (within the heads upper and lower limit) so perfect CB is always achievable and tilt drag can be kept at zero at all times, if required.

That, in a nutshell, is what it's all about.

Now, to put that in perspective, from my experience (YMMV).

My Vinten heads are continuously variable everything, so setting perfect CB is a doddle.

On a zoom scale of 0 (full wide, zoom out) to 9 (full tele, zoom in) on my Canaon XH A1 lens, at 0 zoom I usually set tilt drag to 0 or pretty close, and pretty well keep even stevens all the way up to zoom level 9 with tilt drag ditto, which gives me much better control at such long focal lengths (it keep those twitching muscles from showing on the video).

The Sachtler FSB 6 I have here on loan from, er, Sachtler (thanks Babs!) has tilt drag settings of 0 through 3.

With every configuration of my A1 or my XL1 I've tried (and it's been a few) I have had to set tilt drag to 2 to keep it under control, leaving me with only tilt drag settings 2 & 3 to play with, which ain't many coming from the Vinten.

Now, in fairness, if you started with a Sachtler from the beginning, then that would probably be cool and the Vinten might seem overkill.

Horses for courses, but I do like zero drag at full wide, which, of course I can do with the Sachtler, just remember not to let go that pan bar!

Hope that has shed some light.

CS

Which leads me onto the point, and as I haven't liked the look of the Vinten legs I've seen, the best package for me would seem to be the Sachtler Speedlock CF HD legs with a Vinten head? Now you said they don't fit, but others seem to think they do? Mmmmm....

The legs in my opinion are the starting point, that's where your solidity and also speed of use come from. I need to be happy with them first...

Mmmm.. lots to think about...

Has Peter not answered you yet?

I simply cannot answer compatability questions on gear I have not handled, so can say nothing.

If Peter and Barbara can't sort it, sure as hell, I can't.


CS

I think Chris' and my experience come from the 75mm tripods, where some combinations don't work. I've seen a few pros with Sachtler legs and Vinten heads, and they must be 100mm bowls.

Also, our experiences with the Speedlocks are the CF 75 versions, the 2:1:1 version. They are beautifully made, with quick set up, but I did not find them super-rigid. As far as I can tell, the 100mm Speedlocks are an entirely different kettle of fish and seem much more robust.

I deal with "tiny cams", so my experiences are not directly relevant to the 100mm tripods and "proper cameras"!

Hi Lenny,
You are right. The HD tripod is 2:2:2

Obviously the last tube is smaller in dia than the 2nd as it needs to remain within it when collapsed. I had read somewhere during my initial secondary research that the dia of the tubes are 24 mm and 22mm. Not sure about the dia though, as I haven't measured it with a tape. Will do later and confirm.

The difference between the HD and the Non-HD versions are first in terms of the weight carrying capacity.

HD Version: 95kgs (209 lbs)
Non-HD version: 40kgs (88 lbs).

Weight of tripod:
HD Version: 4kg (8.8 lbs)
Non-HD version: 2.6kg (5.7 lbs)

The Twin tubes look steady. Even when you fully extend the tripod, the lowest tubes don't appear much thinner. I would prefer the additional weight over the non-HD version anyday. If you are in a windy mountaintop and there are no way to use a high hat, then it is better that you have the HD version. And with long teles on small sensor video cameras, the effective focal length is huge. Add the Full high definition and it becomes a deadly cocktail. I am actually shaken by how jittery 1080p footage can be when viewed in big screen. And am scared what will happen when you project it in a big screen.

Tripod is a long term investment. So I want to take the best available. And the second reason is future proofing. If you have the convenience of carrying it in your car boot, then the weight question doesn't even arise.

I haven't physically tried to Non-HD version, as it was not locally available. However, I had rejected it in the initial round while evaluating the specs. I was initially not aware of the HD version, so I was looking at the version with 150mm bowl and then selected the 100mm bowl HD version.

Cheers,
Sabyasachi

Hi Sabyasachi,

Nice review of the tripod. I'm a pro stills guy and quite often have a 400mm 2.8 on a set of sticks. In days gone by I've had up to a 2000mm mirror on two tripods so I'm used to long toms... (ex Police Photographer)

I was always brought up to get the heaviest tripod I could carry, although age is now creeping up with me. ;-) I'm imagining the difference between the HD and normal tripod was noticeable, did you try the non HD version first?

I like the twin legs all the way down, does this not mean the designation is 2:2:2 as I mentioned earlier? In other words at full extension there are 2 tubes on each leg at ground level? It seems from web pics that the HD versions have twin tubes all the way down and the non HD versions have a single tube at the bottom?

I'm just wondering if the only difference between the ENG2 CF HD and the Speedlock CF HD is the Speedlock catches, did you try them?

My tripod is normally in the boot of my car, then carried about job so my worry is that I buy the lighter one then regret it. I'm not hiking for miles carrying it so not too bothered about extra weight.

Cheers
Lenny

Lenny, you are correct, the Sachtler HD sticks are 2:2:2. The bottom section is actually dual legs. The ENG 2 HD are incredibly stable. I am going to eventually look for a used set but budget will dictate timing.

The Speed Lock is a nice feature but I honestly would give up the few seconds gained in set up time to get a more stable tripod. the SB sticks are 2:1:1 configuration and is not as stable.

Sabyasachi you have a superb set support system in the O'Connor 1030HD and Sachtler ENG 2 HD.

-Garrett

If I where to buy a set of sticks today I would go with the Speedlock HD.

That said, whether you go with Sachtler, Vinten or Miller, you can`t go "wrong", they all make good products in their own ways.

To me the best from all the solutions would be Sachtler Speedlock HD and Vinten Vision 100 head, at least for a standard 2/3" ENG camcorder. That`s a kit that will last a decade, or two.

Morning/Afternoon/Evening all

Yes, you can mount a Vinten 100mm head to a Sachtler tripod, and many people do, but the leveling range will be reduced. To overcome this, we have an adaptor part number 3330-206. Its not the same for the Vinten head on a 75mm tripod though, the bowl clamp will prevent the legs from closing.

Which ever 100mm Vinten or Sachtler tripod you eventually go for, itll serve you well for several generations of camera.

Sorry, cant speak for the other brands.

Hope this helps.

Hi,

I have used the Speedlock CF HD extensively over the years. They are fine, I just prefer the standard clamps. Less to go wrong, more solid, easier to carry on the shoulder. Also, the Speedlocks sometimes resonate in a wierd way in very strong wind and it affects the stability.

Comes down to personal preference, but I find the standard ones to be just as quick to set up and height adjust.

Cheers,

Ben Ruffell Director of Photography (http://www.ruff.co.nz)

Hi all,

Just an update. I've had communications with Barbara and Peter, and also my suppliers. I've also spoken to my local news crews and had a footer with their sticks...

I reckon I'm going for the Sachtler Speedlock CF HD and a Sachtler Video 15 head, mid level spreader and feet.

The legs ARE 2:2:2 on the 100mm version, and think this is my ideal system. I'm hoping to get a demo and then get the order in.

Thanks for all the advice guys, appreciated. :-)

I've just been into my supplier, Mitcorp (part of CVP) and had a play with the Sachtler Video 18S1 and I really like it... looks like i'm going to go for that head instead of the Video 15... :-)

The 18 has 16 levels of drag and has a wider payload range than the Vinten head I was looking at. It just felt right...

A few months have passed and I thought I would update you all on my progress.

I had hoped to get my tripod sorted out a few months ago, but things like a wedding and honeymoon to Nashville sort of delayed me. ;-)

Anyway, I have just got a second hand Sachtler Video 18 II head and it is superb, amazing engineering on it. Anyone have a manual for it? Can't seem to get one on the Sachtler website.

Should get either a Sachtler Speedlock CF HD or ENG 2 HD set of sticks within the month. I've started doing a few jobs that needed a hired in autcue and operator so will need the HD sticks. :-)