I need a new camera. Here are my criteria:

1. DOF. I plan to give this a go, so to speak. I know it’s all the rage right now and like all rages it will run its course, and no longer be chick. Nevertheless I also like what can be done with shallow DOF. My current cameras, all Sony brand; an EX1, a CX700v and an HX100v are not good for DOF shooting. To obtain the DOF effect I need a camera with a large sensor, I think.

2. Manual everything. For obvious reasons.

3. Auto everything. I know, but there are times.

4. AVCHD at 28 mbps, or equivalent. I render off AVCHD 28 mbps 60p footage shot with my two toy cameras within an EX1 timeline in Vegas Pro 10 using the XDCAM EX at 29.97 fps 35 mbps template, after grading, and the results are very pleasing when viewed on my 24 inch reasonably high end monitor and projected at the local CineCafe. Footage from the HX100v is especially amazingly good, considering.

5. Image stabilization. I did a walk around test the other day. The two toy cameras, the CX700v and the HX100v, with image stabilization set to ‘Active Mode’ are remarkably good while the common garden variety in the EX1 is quite unsatisfactory (in my hands). My understanding is that the method employed in the CX700v and the HX100v is optical image stabilization, active mode, and is an in the lens rather than in the camera body approach.

6. Light weight for hand held. The EX1 is too heavy (for me).

Candidate cameras I have noted include the Sony NEX 5n, the NEX 7, the A77 and the NEX-VG20, all Sony cameras but I also note the November announcement from Canon. Ya never know! The Sony FS100 is too heavy, unfortunately. I believe the E-mount lenses have built in image stabilization, active mode, but how good it is I don’t know and would be most grateful for input in that regard. And of course suggestions regarding cameras I might have overlooked, or approaches, likewise; most grateful for input.

I’m not a professional (I’m not doing it for the money but for the fun) however I endeavor to deliver professional-looking results. I shoot a variety of subject matter; interviews, fairs, shows, community events, small historical documentaries, wildlife, artsy-fartsy tripy pieces; a mixed bag really. And I’m mostly a one man band.

Many thanks in advance.

John

Hi John,
I can give some advice, as I own a VG10 and an FS100.
I'm not sure the VG20 will have 28mbps. I know my FS100 does, but all the specs I've seen on the VG20 list up to 24mbps only, even in 60P.

The VG20 adds many features the VG10 sorely lacked - manual audio (with meters), focus assist, more than one frame rate. It' still unclear if the VG20 will have decreased moire and aliasing, compared to the VG10. I can tell you I was satisfied with my VG10 - to a degree. But the problems I had with the camera have now been addressed. I would certainly buy the VG20, if I didn't already have the FS100.

Auto controls - I occasionally used them, but I prefer to go manual. I like to have full control of my camera. Because there's no focus assist on the VG10, I did use the auto focus at times, but i still prefer to go full manual. As far as image stabilization, my style of shooting didn't offer much run and gun. With light movement, the camera worked fine.
The VG10 is very light for handheld. I also have a Canon XF305, which is heavier than the EX1, and I much prefer toting around the VG10.

Depth of field control - oh, you'll get that with the VG cameras. And I have to disagree with you as far as it being a passing fad. Motion picture cameras have worked with DoF control since the beginning of film. It's only been recently that this ability has been offered to video cameras. There will always be a place for your typical 3-chip video camera, but the new large sensor cameras offer abilties previous cameras could only dream about. DSLRs and RED proved there was a big market for this style of shooting. I believe that not only is it here to stay, but we're at the beginning of a digital cinema revolution. It's no coincidence that the majority of episodic TV productions have abandoned film and now use digital cinema cameras. They offer the benefits of film cameras, but at a reduced production cost.

But it's also this tight DoF that does NOT make large sensor cameras the best choice for run and gun shooting. It can be done, but you'll find it much easier to keep everything in focus with smaller chips. The positive side of the VG10/20 is, the stock lens is slow, so keeping everything in focus outdoors isn't too much of a problem, and your f-stop will be closed down low in sunlight anyway.

So my final advice? I think you'll really enjoy shooting with the VG20. It is a different style of shooting altogether, but the skills you will learn from operating one - f-stops, lens selections, depth of field control - will help you as a videographer. That's why I bought my VG10 - so I could appreciate and learn how to operate a large sensor camera. And that's why I also ended up buying the FS100.
And picking a DSLR instead of the VG20? Eh, if you want to shoot video, buy a video camera.

Not that it's a big deal, but according to Sony product specialist Kanta Yamamoto at IBC 2011, the highest framerate for the VG20 is 28mbps at 1080/50p (42 seconds into this video: IBC 2011: SONY VG-20 - Interview with Kanta Yamamoto on Vimeo).

This is consistent with the technical specs on Sony's UK website: NEX-VG20EH (NEXVG20EH, NEXVG20EHB.CEE) : Overview : Cameras & camcorders : Sony (http://www.sony.co.uk/product/cam-high-definition-on-memory-stick/nex-vg20eh#pageType=TechnicalSpecs)

The 24mbps number originates with the Sony US specs, which omit 28mbps: Interchangeable Lens HD Handycam Camcorder | NEX-VG20 | Sony USA (http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&partNumber=NEXVG20#specifications)

My guess is that Sony USA screwed up the specs.

Bottom line is that if Sony has addressed the moire problem (and they seem to have done so with the same sensor and Bionz processor in the 5N), this camera will be a very good value for the money.

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution (http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com)

And picking a DSLR instead of the VG20? Eh, if you want to shoot video, buy a video camera.

I'd agree fully were the camcorder an F3 or AF100 or even an FS100. But the VG20 has worse control ergonomics than the nex-5n or nex-7 and delivers no better picture.

The tiny buttons on the left side are a joke. They are the same as the VG10. The DSLR NEX have their buttons on the back.

The touchscreen on the FAR left is far less easy to touch than right in front of you.

The optional OLED VF for the NEX-5N is better than on the NEX-7 because it flips-up.

Audio I/O is the VG20's strong point along with a handle. Are they worth $1000 to you?

PS: 60p/60p is allowed by the AVCHD 2.0 where it is 28Mbps which is a too low. I would rather the 36Mbps provided byJVC, but that's Sony/Pana marketing for you.

Thanks Glen, for the detailed response; much appreciated. Your point about the DOF thing is taken, I do totally agree. My comment about it being all the rage is based on what appears to me to be overuse in a lot of the stuff out there but as a tool, no doubt about it being a good thing when used judiciously and I admit I have been remiss in not using that aesthetic as I should. I’m about to correct that.

Yes, I am also about to learn another style of shooting and your encouragement in that regard is appreciated. Nothing like continuous improvement! Up until now I’ve been a tripod no matter what shooter but I have a couple of projects coming up, a restaurant promo for one where a tripod in the kitchen (elephant in a china store) is not possible. Let me ask you this: if the VG20 was available at the time would you have purchased the FS100, or in other words what does the FS100 bring to the party that the VG20 does not promise? Given the size/weight of the FS100 it’s probably a moot point for me; just curious.

Thanks Bill, for the clarification regarding the 28mbps. I have noted that the quality of AVCHD video out there is proportional to the bit rate, or so it seems to me, and while 24 mbps might be just fine most of the time I’m more than happy with the 28mbps coming off my HX100v and the CX700v. I imagine that 36mbps as Steve favors is often better yet but I’ll settle for 28 (as if I have a choice).

Steve, always a pleasure to read your thoughts and digest your input. Couple of questions if I may: do you expect a significant difference in image quality when comparing the cameras mentioned above (other than the F3 which is in another league altogether)? You mention that the VG20 has no better image quality (presumably using the same lens) and would that apply to the FS100 also?

Pro-level audio as in XLR is not an issue and certainly not worth anywhere close to $1000.00. In fact I have a BeachTec stored away with my ancient FX1 that I could dig out if necessary but wireless into the mini-jack has not been problematic for me, and where perfect audio is critical I have the EX1.

The question of ergonomics is interesting. I also shoot a lot of stills and up until the HX100v I would not think even in my wildest dreams of shooting video with my older still cameras. The HX100v has changed my thinking in that regard and for certain applications I much prefer that camera however let me hasten to add that the EX1 on a tripod, where that is practical, is hard to beat. Horses for courses as they say and the more the merrier.

Appreciate your input; most helpful.

John -
I am somewhat in the same boat as you, and you've gotten some good advise.

I think it's safe to say that the 28Mbps/60p spec will be seen in the VG20 - erroneous website info aside.

Sony has traditionally put the stabilization in the "A"/Alpha mount in the camera body (so A33/55/65/77, where it seems to add a heating element to the equation, shortening clip times significantly.).

The "E" mount was designed around video, so the stabilization was to be in the lenses... haven't actually shot with one yet to judge the stabilization, but it's going to be tough to compete with the CX700, IMO.

Keep in mind the 18-200 lens that ships with the VG series is pretty hefty. Ask yourself what lens range you will be needing/using. The NEX5N or NEX7 with a smaller lens might be the ticket for size/features/quality if you can get by with a smaller lens range, or use adapters to the E mount.

I see the audio in the VG's as probably far better than the "still" cameras, which so far in my experience have ranged from mediocre to HORRIBLE for sound, but can you dual audio, or use a sound track - if that's an option, that would tend to negate the advantage. I personally don't see the video camera form factor as being significantly "better" to shoot with, as I can put together a lightweight rig for ANY image acquisition device, and I am used to shooting with small cameras.

Which camera is "right"... <shrug>? Hard to say really, the developments in the E mount have caught my attention (1st generation cameras didn't catch my eye - this generation, with full manual and higher bitrates HAVE)!

Personally I'm waiting to see the NEX7 reviews and see whether they get the bugs (clicks) ironed out of the NEX5n before I put my toes into the water - I've got the A55 and A580 for stills, and for short clips they will do the fancy DoF tricks to mix in with MY "toy cameras" (I like that, they LOOK like toys, but OH BOY can they shoot some good clips!!) - I've got CX550's, and some TX's, and an HX100 on the way (TX's are great and pocketable, but have little lens range!). BUT so far the controls and overall layout on the NEX7 sure look like they might be about the best arrangement in a small package, plus there's a mic input TOO... Hmmm. And in theory I could leverage my investment in Alpha lenses/accessories, although putting old solid Minolta glass on the A55 is something less than balanced already!!


Just some ramblings from someone mulling the same questions! AND waiting for the reviews!

OH BOY can they shoot some good clips!!

Isn't that the truth. Thanks Dave for your input. The image quality and stabilization on the HX100v at 30x is nothing short of miraculous for $449.99 at B&H (temporarily unavailable, no surprise). Of course for DOF shooting it doesn't really cut it. I have a 'notify me' regarding the NEX 7 at B&H but I haven't made a decision by any means. Lots of options unfolding and it might well be that the image quality is the least of our concerns. I love it...

Steve, always a pleasure to read your thoughts and digest your input. Couple of questions if I may: do you expect a significant difference in image quality when comparing the cameras mentioned above (other than the F3 which is in another league altogether)? You mention that the VG20 has no better image quality (presumably using the same lens) and would that apply to the FS100 also?

Pro-level audio as in XLR is not an issue and certainly not worth anywhere close to $1000.00. In fact I have a BeachTec stored away with my ancient FX1 that I could dig out if necessary but wireless into the mini-jack has not been problematic for me, and where perfect audio is critical I have the EX1.


Alas, The NEX-5N has NO audio input. So, for many the $1000 has to be spent if one want's a Sony big chipper. IF the NEX-7 has a mic input, it could be great except for the fact the OLED VF doesn't swivel-up. So spending $300 for the VG20 may be worth it.

To me Sony has made a VG20 that IMHO is not a great camcorder yet crippled it's DSLRs so many have no choice but to buy the VG20. And, it IS much better than the VG10.

I really dislike this kind of marketing, but as long as Sony is king of sensors folks are stuck.

But, if I were going to buy a new camera I would take a hard look at the GH2 with the 60Mbps firmware or look for a discounted AF100.

An idea, get an NEX-5N with the 18-55 then buy a lens adaptor for old manual lenses -- I like MC/MD Minolta lenses. Then learn this system. You'll have a blast hunting and trying primo glass from the `70s. In a few years Canon or Pana is going to offer something really cool. Frankly, I can'r see how Pana can avoid an AF50 for $2500.

I think the real fun is shooting like we did 40 years ago. Frankly, I liked the challange more than I cared about absolute image quality. Frankly, all thse camera's shoot really good video.

...Alas, The NEX-5N has NO audio input...

Steve, I'm not a big fan of the NEX-5N, but, according to reviews at Imaging Resource (http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/NEX5N/NEX5NA.HTM) and elsewhere it does have audio input via the proprietary Sony Smart Accessory Terminal:

...audio is captured by default with a built-in stereo microphone. As an alternative, Sony's ECM-SST1 (http://www.amazon.com/Sony-ECMSST1-Compact-Stereo-Microphone/dp/B003OBUJGW?tag=battleforthew-20) external microphone accessory mounts on the Smart Accessory Terminal 2, and can provide directional audio coverage at either 90° or 120°...

Here is an audio test with the external mic:

Sony Nex 5N Audio Test. Stereo Microphone ECM-SST1 Wide Open Camera - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpCjLt0IoBw)

That said, audio is still a weak point for this camera due to the lack of manual audio gain control.

Otherwise, I agree with your recommendations above -- I have a GH2 and love it, but regret the lack of full manual audio gain and headphone jack. If I could find a severely discounted AF100, I would get it -- but about $2000 is all I can afford, so the AF100 and FS100 are out of the question. Looks like I'll have to wait for the VG20.

Cheers,

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution (http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com)

John,
Why did I pick the FS100 over the VG20? Good question!
The FS100 is a different beast. While both have a large sensor, they're not the same sensor. The FS's sensor is bigger. Sony calls it a Super 35, but that's a little marketing hype. It is very close in size to a true 35mm film frame. Supposedly, it's the same sensor as the one in the F3, but that leads to a whole lot of arguing, so let's just say they're darn close. It's in the processing of the video signal that really differentiates the two cameras. The FS is optimized for video capture only. The VG20 isn't quite as good, and allows for good still shooting. The FS should be far better as far as decreasing aliasing and moire effects, and better latitude. Maybe the VG20 is better in that regard compared to the VG10, but we'll have to wait and see.
I've looked at the video from my FS100 and VG10, and the FS is far cleaner and crisper. It just looks a lot better to my eye. No surprise there, considering the features and all.

The FS has XLR inputs, very important for a true professional video camera. It has a lot more controls and settings, allowing you greater flexibility in manipulating the image.
The FS100 is simply a better, more professional camera. That doesn't take away from the VG10/20 line, and I have used my VG10 on many professional shoots, with good success.

Of course, the FS100 costs a lot more. We'll see in the end if my decision to go the more expensive route pays off. But if I didn't buy the FS100, I would jump on the VG20, no question.

And that's good news regarding 28mbps in the VG20. That makes the VG20 a very good camera, in my opinion.

I have to add -

About shallow depth of field:
John, I absolutely agree. The effect has been way over-used. It's good to have when you need it, but please! Don't go nuts on rack-focusing just because you can.

Here's a scenario where I know I can use a shallower DoF to good effect:
I shoot commercials with a knick-knack store. This store is crammed with tiny trinkets. I've used 2/3" and 1/3" cameas on the shoot before. The hard part is trying to key on one particualr item, while it's surrounded by dozens of others. They all blend together in a mish-mash of colors and shapes.
Now, I can better single out one particular item with tighter DoF.
The woman who owns the store also likes to do a closing stand-up. I've always had trouble separating her from the cluttered background of her store, but now I can really make her stand out.

Pkus, I shoot short films for fun. I like the abilities the FS100 now gives me, as far as being able to better separate our actors from the general background. This will guide the viewers' eye to the actors, not what's behind them. Shallow DoF works great in telling a narrative story.

@John;

There is a post comparing Sony 5N versus Canon 5D2 at iso 3200. and believe it that the 5N trounces the 5D2 for s/n, which really surprised me.

As for 5N versus VG20 I would spend the price differential on shoulder grip, external audio capture, glass etc., ie things you can keep using long after the camera is history - remember QFHD is not far away now.

One really has to consider price points and features carefully...

NEX5n at $599 for the body, $699 w/18-55 lens - relatively inexpensive, 16Mpix sensor, limited audio options. And for another $349 you can add the VF...

NEX7 at $1199 for the body, $1349 w/ 18-55 lens (leading to the question as to why the "extra" $50?!?). You get more effective controls, alpha shoe, built in flash, external mic 1/8" input, and that 24Mpxel sensor... plus (admittedly not angle adjustable) the VF. IMO if the image quality stands up, this might be the most intrigueing of the lot.

VG20,,, not seeing a price on the Sony US site... but IIRC I've heard $2200 tossed about, or 10% over the VG10 - I'd be shocked to see the price not drop to the same as the VG10 as the 10 phases out. For that you get the 18-200 lens (an $800 piece by itself, putting the body at around the same price point as the NEX7, roughly $1200), and a "video" form factor with better/high end built in audio/mics. BUT, you're back with the 16Mpixel sensor of the 5n...



That's a pretty WIDE price/feature spread... and I think illustrates why the NEX7 is getting massive pre-orders.

5n looks like a bargain in "basic" form at $700... BUT
5N with VF = $1049 vs. 7 = $1349 - the 7 starts to look like a pretty good bargain, especially if Sony drops that $50 premium for the black lens!

That leaves the VG20 a BIG jump up in price from the $700 price to play for the 5n... if you don't need the 18-200 you can spend a chunk of that on one or more adapters to play with assorted glass, OR go to the 7, add adapters and a mic... hmmm.


My thoughts lean towards the NEX7 being the real "bargain/sleeper hit". If Sony got smart and tossed a "NEX6" with 7 body/5n sensor into the mix at around $900-1000, and the logical "VG30" with the 24Mpixel sensor at $2200-2400 they'd pretty much cover every price point, and have a tough to beat lineup.


We need to wait to see what the performance of the 24Mpixel sensor will turn out to be...

Although I have enjoyed using it, the big problems with the NEX5 for me were overheat and poor battery life, particularly in comparison to my VG10. Can anyone provide any info on how the NEX5n and NEX7 function by comparison in events scenarios? And do we now have direct full manual control over the shutter speed on the 5n in video mode?

I think the body-only VG20 is $1600.

The NEX-5 has a connector that has leads for audio. But, the connector plug as never been built by anyone to connect a mic jack. It seems Sony may have a chip in its external flash and mic. So the NEX-5 has no mic input .

I think Sony has created a "you can't there from here" NEX design. If you really want a camcorder, you kind of are forced into the VG20. But, the NEX-7 does look interesting. And, one wonders -- what will 24MP bring to video?

The FS100 has big pixels giving it great sensitivity. And, since it doesn't shoot photos the AA filter can be appropriate for video. But, for less money, I would go with the AF100 because it has everything a camcorder needs and is cheaper. And, we now know DOF and video are essentially the same as the FS100. IMHO the FS100 should only be $3200 -- 2X the VG20. And, the F3 at $10K. Sony is trying to avoid yet another year of no profit. Sony camera buyers are paying for their failure in HDTVs. Vizeo is cheaper and Samsung better. Perhaps they shouldn't have wasted money on 3D. :)

Totally agree about pricing - I've said for some time now that both the AF100 and FS100 were over priced by at least $1,000, the AF100 maybe by $1,500. That pricing disparity will only grow when the VG20 and Canon camera(s) hit the market. Now, the price has already dropped about a grand on the AF100, but that's not nearly enough.

Far as buying the AF100, I've read so many threads where new owners were disappointed in the image that I long ago ruled out the cam. Seriously, the AF100 forum at another site is more or less as happy as a morgue - and it has been for a long time (even more so now that the FS100 came out). Experienced shooters almost to a man have moved to the FS100, although yes, these guys can get a usable image from the AF100. AF100's a very unforgiving camera, despite it's larger tool set (XLRs, built-in ND filters).

When you add to that the 4/3's format, no thanks. Yes, I know it's bigger than a 1/3 inch sensor. No, I'm not impressed. And yes, I know the AF100 has a built ND filter. By God has Panny tried beating would be buyers to death with that one. You know what Hollywood shooters use? Matteboxes.

If the AF100 were $2,500 brand new w/lens, then you'd have to take a close look at it. But, I'll bet a buck that the VG20 will look at least as clean in low light, and maybe better. VG20 will prolly handle highlights better. Prolly worse at moire, equal in jello.

Point being, even if the AF100 was half the price, I'd still have to think twice about it, given the VG20 and soon to-be-announced "historic" cam from Canon.

Typical proprietary "interface" in the NEX5/5n for the mic/flash. Doesn't count as an "input" in my book, until someone hacks it or Sony makes a module available to take advantage of the "feature".

Heat and battery life will probably remain as concerns in the NEX cameras - they really aren't designed for long clip event type work - that's what video cams are for <wink>. It's the potential for a small, manual control, image acquisition device that's in play with these. With a large enough chip to get some decent DoF. Conceptually, was part of the motivation for picking up an a55 (that and needed a decent stills upgrade). Of course, short battery life, overheating, and no manual controls on "1st generation" have me considering the possible upgrades already... fudge.

... and soon to-be-announced "historic" cam from Canon.


Is that a joke or a rumor?

The tests I saw of the FS100 verses the AF100 showed zero difference -- or not enough for me too care. Good enough is good enough for 90% of today's work. I mean is a client really likely not to pay for HD shot with an AF100 or any modern HD $5000 camcorder. EZ to use is most important to me. I just want a old-fashioned camcorder with a big chip -- for cheap.

Is that a joke or a rumor?

The tests I saw of the FS100 verses the AF100 showed zero difference -- or not enough for me too care. Good enough is good enough for 90% of today's work. I mean is a client really likely not to pay for HD shot with an AF100 or any modern HD $5000 camcorder. EZ to use is most important to me. I just want a old-fashioned camcorder with a big chip -- for cheap.

It's a rumor. Canon is having a big announcement in Hollywood on Nov. 3rd. Everybody's going nuts wondering what it could be. Some have already come to the conclusion that it's a new big-chip Canon video camera. There is NO evidence to suggest it is - none. It's all mindless speculation. There's several forum threads devoted to the rumor, and frankly, I'm tired of reading all the wild guesses.

As far as a cheap big-chip camera, there's always the DSLRs. Or the VG10/20. Or the AF100 and FS100 - it depends on what your definition of cheap is.

It's neither a joke or a rumor - as Glen pointed out, Canon's sent out invitations for an "historic" event on a back lot in Hollywood - hardly the way to intro a new printer. Chris seems to believe it's a camera and for a man who seems pretty set against rumor spreading, that's enough for me.

More to the point, Canon's DSLR lineup is getting long in the tooth - it's been 3 years since the Mark II "shocked the world" so to speak, and it's only a matter of months before there's some news on that front (and if not for the disaster in Japan, it would probably already happened).

Canon's main competitors, Sony and Panny, have both released large chip "true" video cameras in 2011 w/ switchable lenses. In fact, by the end of the year, Sony will have released 3. Canon has nothing at this point to even remotely compete with them in those terms. Add to that the various still cams from Panny and Sony - all of which make very nice videos - and it's clear that it's Canon's turn to respond. Worse for Canon, those cameras are selling like hotcakes.

So while the exact specs or type of camera might by up to speculation, the fact that some new large chip camera being announced in a month and a half by Canon is all but a fait d'accomplit. And I suspect more announcements will follow - likely leading up to the Mark III announcement (based primarily on recent Canonrumor postings).

So unless you have to have a camera right now, why not wait a month and a half? You'll have to wait at least that long before the VG20 hits shelves in any case.

Thanks a million, folks, for the conversation. I have found this most helpful. And as a result here is my current thinking, for what it’s worth. Please feel free to comment.

There is no one camera for everything any more especially for people like me who shoot a wide range of subject matter. Of course I have an EX1 which while a few years old remains about as good as it gets for what it does, and for certain shooting, quite a lot actually, that will continue to be my choice. At the other end of the scale I have an HX100v which I imagine very few of you have ever heard of let alone shot with. It is a wonderful walk around bridge camera for shooting photographs where the 30x lens comes in handy and the full HD 60p video is remarkably good. If shooting test charts was my thing then this camera would not be in my kit bag. But for shooting wildlife on a budget it is hard to beat. And for photographs destined for web publishing there is none more popular and for good reason.

I will use the CX700v for two-camera interviews with the EX1 as the 60p footage sits well on the time line with the 30p off the EX1. I shall also use it for run and gun shooting, excellent imagine stabilization, where I need everything to be in focus and artistic DoF is not front and centre.

For DoF including hand-held shooting situations, the subject of this thread, I have zeroed in on three candidates: the NEX 7, the A77 and the VG 20. None of these are available yet as you know but they all look promising based on the available information. Initially I shall purchase the 18 55 and the 18 200 OSS lenses which will be just fine with any of the three cams; not perfect but just fine.

As we speak based on what I understand I’m leaning towards the VG 20 not because of image quality (I’m guessing they will all pass muster in that regard) but because of functionality and ergonomics, not quite as light as the NEX 7 but less than half the weight of the FS100 and the EX1 with the 18 200 lens attached, and I can live with that.

That should do it, for now, and for the foreseeable future.

I just know if I get the VG 20 I’m going to desire, yes desire, a NEX 7 too just because it looks sooo lovely. Damn.

Thanks again.

Hi John -
You don't say if you've got any legacy "A" mount glass to come into the equation (I do, so that's where the A65/A77 are in my "possible" list). BUT, if you don't have any already, keep in mind that the "E" mount is quite entirely different than the "A" mount - the "A" and mnay other lenses can be adapted to the "E" mount due to the short flange distance inherent in the design, but if you go to the A77, it's "A" mount lenses.

As soon as you go "interchangeable lens", the lenses start to come into play in the decision making equation, as they SHOULD outlast the bodies (lots of NEX5 bodies of late on eBay!). It's the nice old Minolta glass I've collected on the cheap (A mount) that keeps me from getting "too" excited about the "E" mount stuff, but that NEX7 sure does look interesting!

FWIW, I've got a similar "mix" of video capable cameras, including the Sony P&S cams with the "small" 16Mpixel sensor, very capable for what they are and do! If they shoot good video, why not use 'em!

I have no legacy lenses, Dave, as when I retired, the year 2000, my camera kit was returned to the company and that’s when I took off for central Mexico with a little digital 3 megapixel Canon. And my current location here in New Zealand is not conducive to lens hunting, nor am I in the least predisposed in that direction.

I hear you regarding the lens outlasting the body but my aging body won’t last forever either so that’s somewhat of a moot point in my situation.

I do find it amusing that while I get plenty of comments both positive and sometimes not so positive regarding composition, content, style and so on not once has anyone commented ‘that footage in there is obviously shot with a toy consumer camera; what rubbish’ or anything remotely like that. I totally agree with you; why not use all the tools in the bag as appropriate and not get hung up on the gear. Now, having said that no doubt if one has a contract with Ferrari, or Vogue Mag and you show up with a CX700v then eyebrows might well be raised, but that’s not what I do (though I wouldn’t mind having a go if I was invited ha ha).

In the ‘Great camera Shootout 2011 Episode 1' a comment by Don McAlpine, ACS/ASC, Cinematographer, struck me as being highly relevant. He said, speaking about the camera and the film stock you use, ‘it’s a fraction of a percent of where you’re going…’ Right on Sir; how true. Keeping that in perspective is so important.

Camera lust (like me and the NEX 7) must be controlled and lens lust, as I observe here and there, is downright sinful, I reckon.

All good fun...

And now RED will announce something Nov 3rd as well....
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-video-industry-news/500720-something-new-canon-nov-3rd-8.html

Much as I'm interested in the VG20, I'll be waiting on any orders until at least Nov. 4th.

Personally I'm waiting to see the NEX7 reviews

I read a review that the 24Mp chip is great for photos BUT it offers a stop less sensitivity than the NEX-5n which is likely the same as the VG20. So, if correct, we can forgot the NEX-7.

The lower sensitivity makes sense given the jump from 16MP to 24MP in the same size chip.

I wonder if the VG20 is more sensitive than the VG10. The one big positive of the FS100 is 2 stops greater sensitivity which would be exactly what the VG20 needs IF you want to use a zoom -- which I do.

I think I read that the VG10 has min illumination of 11 lux at F3.5 at shutter of 1/25 and the VG20 9 lux(1/50 Shutter Speed F3.5)

Paul

Paul - I think you're right for the European model -- the VG20 EU press release (http://presscentre.sony.eu/content/Detail.aspx?ReleaseID=6938&NewsAreaID=2) says the VG20 is 9 lux at 1/50 shutter.

Couldn't get on the Sony USA site this morning because it is down for maintenance, but a side-by-side of the VG10/VG20 specs on Adorama shows slightly different shutter speed numbers for the US models:

VG10 (http://www.adorama.com/SONEXVG10.html) minimum illumination: 11 lux (Shutter speed: 1/30 sec, Iris: F3.5, Gain: Auto)

VG20 (http://www.adorama.com/SONEXVG20H.html) minimum illumination: 9 lux (Shutter speed: 1/60 sec, Iris: F3.5, Gain: Auto)

Cheers,

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution (http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com)

Sony typically improves performance as they progress (I say typically, as sometimes there are some "steps backwards"...). One of the areas they are very conscious of is "low light" shooting. They've had more "tweak time" with the 16Mpix chip, so I'd expect it to be "better", but so for the 24Mpix chip in the NEX7/A77 looks pretty good.

After finally getting hands on with a HX100V (too bad they didn't enable more manual control while shooting video!), I'm really leaning towards the physical design of the NEX7 - I can add a small flash bracket/grip to the left side, all the controls will be pretty much at my thumb tip, and aside from having to collect some new glass in "E" mount, it would make for a pretty comfortable cam to shoot, at least for me.

I’m also leaning towards the NEX 7 as you are Dave. That 24 megapixel sensor is looking good and the size/form factor is most appealing. Its place in my kit will be for DoF shooting, mostly outdoors, and for high quality stills. If I didn’t have other cameras the NEX VG 20 would make more sense perhaps. And given the E-mount lens line is rapidly expanding, apparently, purchasing a NEX VG 20 body later is a solid option.

What lenses are you looking to obtain, may I ask?

The stock 18-55 for starters to see if the camera resonates with me as I expect... then I might look into the adapter as I've got plenty of what I regard as "nice" "A" mount glass and don't particularly want to recreate the collection... main thing is all these 20+ year old lenses are built like tanks in comparison, so will be "lens heavy" in any configuration! Already noticing it with the A55/Minolta 24-105(D) combo...

If I go this direction, it would be a "supplemental" camera, likely replacing an "A" mount camera, with the video as a strong bonus - the A series seem OK for video, but manual controls would be nice, and I'm always happy with smaller/lighter.

Yes, smaller/lighter figures large in my decision making too. The kit lens makes sense to me however over at another forum more focused on photography the comments about this lens range from outright derision (piece of crap) to faint praise.

Not unlike the polarized views here regarding the FS100 kit lens, the 18-200 (which I am also thinking of getting) where it is considered ‘...a consumer grade lens’ by one notable professional who also tells us ‘...deal breakers -- especially if shallow DoF is one of the reasons you are buying an FS100 in the first place...’ and so I have to imagine the same would apply to the NEX 7. In as much as shallow DoF shooting is indeed one of the primary reasons I am acquiring the camera this statement is of concern. Am I to take this advice literally; the said lens will not enable shallow DoF shooting? If so then advice regarding an alternative (that won’t cost an arm and a leg) would be most appreciated.

I must point out that when it comes to lenses I am an ageing newbie; that is I know more or less nothing about the subject and I’m too old to learn other than the rudimentary knowledge necessary to enable my shooting. Furthermore, I’m not a ‘professional’ but I like to think my output is closer to looking professional than the footage I see being shot by tourists who step off the bus with a tiny cam which they hold at arm’s length and pirouette like a ballet dancer, sweep the horizon, then quickly jump back on the bus.

Leica; now there is a religious icon if ever there was one. Before purchasing a Leica I imagine a two week total immersion in some kind of exclusive doctrinal high-order religious school is appropriate. I don’t want to go there. In fact I have no intention of becoming a collector of lenses of any creed. All I want is a lens (or two) that will enable shallow DoF shooting of the kind Doug Jensen demonstrated so well in his ‘Vortex Media's Sony NEX-FS100 Demo Footage on Vimeo’ and hopefully without having to go the expensive Nikon adapter and lens route (as he did for many ‘other’ obviously valid reasons). I should add perhaps that zooming while shooting is not one of my favorite moves.

I trust I make sense!

So my questions are given that I have no lenses whatsoever and with the above intentions should I even get the NEX 7 kit lens? And/or what else?

Most grateful...

Lenses are a cult thing... personally I belong to the "old Minolta colors" cult <wink>, not really a card carrying member, just a fringe hanger-on, with GAS (gear acquisition syndrome) issues.... The color rendition of the lenses has something to do with the coatings used, and gives a "look" that is pleasing. For me I found the "kit" lenses Sony includes with their Alphas just don't "pop" the same way - I'd classify the kit lenses as barely acceptable to my eye. I think the pictures I take with the old Minolta glass look better, and the glass was relatively cheap!

There are LOTS of legends and tales (and yes, plenty of facts and test results) surrounding various lenses and various brands, and thus many adherents to specific lenses. Photographers tend to make video pixel peepers look like rank amateurs, maybe because there are so many more pixels to look at?! Still photographers most likely have "similar but different" ideas of what makes a lens "great" or marginal... entire flame wars are fought over "bokeh"...

I know all the reviewers seem to be getting excited over the 24mm Zeiss lens that Sony is also debuting, it's another $1K outlay for a "prime" lens... doesn't interest me at all. Probably a great lens, but I'd have little use for it.

I guess what I'm saying is that once you go interchangeable, you open a whole big can o' worms. My thought on the 18-55 "kit" lens with the NEX/E mount is that it was designed to work with the features of the body, so at least in theory is "optimized" to whatever the engineers/tech high priests set forth as specifications. We do know for certain that at least some of the drive behind the NEX and SLT cameras was for video features like constant auto focus instead of having to manually focus all the time (I can go either way, but auto is nice to have) - so at least to some extent these cameras/lenses are video oriented. Cameras with "auto everything" typically can auto adjust faster than a human for most things, so in that sense the tools are passing by the "average" shooter, but there's still room of manual override, people who know the manual stuff want it to be there, and the NEX 7 has it all in a nice package, it's going to be an incredibly "HOT" product.

Also we know that (at least on the stil side, not sure they are or could do it with 60fps, YET) Sony is setting up correction profiles that you would be able to use to adjust for "lens imperfections" in internal digital processing, so I guess perhaps the lens will become less important as processing horsepower goes up. As with all things, "digital" manipulation is altering the "analog" side of the equation.



I guess I'd put out my classic view - it's not the tools, it's the craftsman. You have to learn the capabilities and limitations of each of your tools, and use them for what they do well. My TX100 isn't the best camera in the world, but I appreciate the pocketability and overall quality on both the still and video side. Goes places that my other cameras simply won't, because I don't want to carry anything bigger or bulkier!

The NEX 5 looks great, but doesn't tick enough boxes to pull me in (lots of boxes checked, but you can't own EVERY camera ever made!), OTOH, the 7 adds VF and the hotshoe, plus the Tri-Nav control, now I'm interested, in conjunction/backup with an A65, it'll be on my hunting list... the whole different lens mount thing is the ONE downside, as I'm probably going to be exploring adapters, and possible lens options!

Yes, smaller/lighter figures large in my decision making too. The kit lens makes sense to me however over at another forum more focused on photography the comments about this lens range from outright derision (piece of crap) to faint praise.

Not unlike the polarized views here regarding the FS100 kit lens, the 18-200 (which I am also thinking of getting) where it is considered ‘...a consumer grade lens’ by one notable professional who also tells us ‘...deal breakers -- especially if shallow DoF is one of the reasons you are buying an FS100 in the first place...’ and so I have to imagine the same would apply to the NEX 7. In as much as shallow DoF shooting is indeed one of the primary reasons I am acquiring the camera this statement is of concern. Am I to take this advice literally; the said lens will not enable shallow DoF shooting? If so then advice regarding an alternative (that won’t cost an arm and a leg) would be most appreciated.

I must point out that when it comes to lenses I am an ageing newbie; that is I know more or less nothing about the subject and I’m too old to learn other than the rudimentary knowledge necessary to enable my shooting. Furthermore, I’m not a ‘professional’ but I like to think my output is closer to looking professional than the footage I see being shot by tourists who step off the bus with a tiny cam which they hold at arm’s length and pirouette like a ballet dancer, sweep the horizon, then quickly jump back on the bus.

Leica; now there is a religious icon if ever there was one. Before purchasing a Leica I imagine a two week total immersion in some kind of exclusive doctrinal high-order religious school is appropriate. I don’t want to go there. In fact I have no intention of becoming a collector of lenses of any creed. All I want is a lens (or two) that will enable shallow DoF shooting of the kind Doug Jensen demonstrated so well in his ‘Vortex Media's Sony NEX-FS100 Demo Footage on Vimeo’ and hopefully without having to go the expensive Nikon adapter and lens route (as he did for many ‘other’ obviously valid reasons). I should add perhaps that zooming while shooting is not one of my favorite moves.

I trust I make sense!

So my questions are given that I have no lenses whatsoever and with the above intentions should I even get the NEX 7 kit lens? And/or what else?

Most grateful...


Look, there are reasons for not liking the 18-200 kit lens. It's slow,
has funky focusing, and non constant aperture. But I think the images
it gives are pretty good. And you can certainly get shallow depth
of field with it. Here are two pieces I shot with the SEL 18-200
kit lens and the FS-100

Nugget Falls on Vimeo

Summer 2011 on Vimeo

Thanks Gabe, nice images, and yes; shallow DoF shots in there too. Of course what I would like to see is footage shot with a prime as recommended by Doug Jenson side by side if you will. Clearly he means better results may be obtained with a prime in that regard than with the kit lens and your videos help clear that up for me, many thanks.

Dave, truly appreciate your wisdom regarding the lens opportunity. While it is somewhat daunting trying to sort out what is what I tend to agree that the kit lens is the way to go, initially; it can’t be all that bad, and get the Sony E 50mm F1.8 OSS prime due December. That will at least let me test the shallow DoF waters.

Many thanks.

If you want a fast prime, you don't have to wait until December. Unless you
want some specific feature that comes with the E mount prime (you may be
able to use the OIS for example). If that is not the case though, you
can find 50mm F1.8 primes in FD mount for about $30 on ebay. Then you
can get a $15 FD to NEX mount as well. Or you can get a 50mm F1.4 prime
in FD mount for about $80. There are like 70 pages of old FD mount
lenses on ebay.....I gather it is because they don't work with any
of the Canon digital still cameras. But because of that, they are
really cheap. And they work with the E mount and the Micro 4/3 mount
systems with adapters. I have ordered some FD mount primes off ebay
about three days ago, so hopefully I will get them soon.

My point in my post, was that the SEL 18-200 'kit lens' is a capable lens.
Of course it is not going to get you the shallow depth of field you can get
with a a 1.4, 1.8, or even 2.8 lens. But on a big sensor camera, it is a
lot better than what you get with small chip traditional camcorders,
and you get the benefits of having an 11x zoom which is really nice
for run and gun stuff. To me, it's kind of the 'all around' lens which
is ok at everything but doesn't really excel anywhere. But the images
it produces look pretty nice to me. I personally like having it.

I understand that the Sony production facility in Thailand where the NEX 7 (not sure about the VG 20) is manufactured is a total write-off (floods) so I imagine we won't be seeing the much anticipated NEX 7 for a while. With that in mind and given my interest in pursuing this shallow DoF thing I went ahead and ordered a NEX 5n with the kit lens and the 16 mm, from B&H.

The order was confirmed and is scheduled to ship on Sunday.

Not a whole heap of money and in due course maybe the VG 20 or the NEX 7!