I currently shoot with a Canon XHA1. I want to start some movie style shooting. Im considering purchasing the Sony VG-20 and selling the XHA1.

Im wondering if it would be better to keep the XHA1, and just purchase a DSLR for those DOF shots that I cant get with the XHA1.

Id like your opinion and recommendation on which DSLR is best for video and a partner to the XHA1. I have a budget of $2000 for the DSLR.

related post in progress
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-avchd-nex-vg10-nex-vg20/500949-lens-vg-20-a.html

Thanks,
Jeff



Thanks,
Jeff

Pending final confirmation, the VG20 will provide videographers with a clean HDMI output and a 4:2:2 signal.

By contrast, DSLR manufacturers have deliberately degraded the HDMI output on their cameras. So, the typical DSLR will output a signal that is suitable for monitoring only. Thus, users are limited to AVCHD compression and a 4:2:0 signal.

Another factor to take into account is one where due to the high resolution sensors on DSLRs, the video usually suffers some aliasing artifacts.

I too have been struggling with a similar dilemma lately. So far, I have come to the conclusion that the VG20 is a nice compromise, providing sufficient DOF on the one hand, and offering a clean HDMI signal on the other hand.

Thanks Adam...Im leaning in that direction too..........these are tuff decisions. ha
Im may add the Sony Nex 5n $699 for stills and some movie clips...the plus is being able to use the lenses on both camera and camcorder.

Jeff

Pending final confirmation, the VG20 will provide videographers with a clean HDMI output and a 4:2:2 signal.

Be careful about assuming that 4:2:2 really is 4:2:2. An HDMI outputs 4:2:2 YCrCb to your HDTV when you playback 4:2:0 video. It can do so because the HDMI output chip converts 4:2:0 to 4:2:2.

So the fact the OUTPUT is 422 tells you nothing about the input to the HDMI chip.

We can't assume that 422 from the internal processing is output. There is no reason for the internals of a camcorder that records 420 to actually use 422 internally. It is just as likely that the internal processing is 420 -- which is upsampled by the HDMI chip to 422.

So DSLRs do not have "crippled" output. It's only that we know what they are doing. We do not know what ANY of Sony NEX cameras are doing.

Remember, during shooting Sony supplies an RGB -- not YCrCb -- signal for their tiny external monitor.

Internal 4:2:0 processing may be why Sony did not put an HD-SDI port on the FS100. It would be misleading.

My bet is that the HDMI outputs8-bit 4:2:2 YCrCb upsampled from 4:2:0. so all you can do is avoid AVCHD compression. To me not worth the bother.

My bet is that the HDMI outputs8-bit 4:2:2 YCrCb upsampled from 4:2:0. so all you can do is avoid AVCHD compression.


So it sounds like you are saying that for static shots, a DSLR could be a better tool than the VG20.


So the fact the OUTPUT is 422 tells you nothing about the input to the HDMI chip.

Does that mean that the CMOS itself outputs 4:2:0? I'm thinking out loud here, would it be possible to bypass the HDMI sampling (or upsamling) by tapping directly into the pre-HDMI stage? If it's theoretically possible, I wouldn't mind getting some service manuals and circuit diagrams from Sony and attempting to tap into a VG20's circuitry.

I'm saying form factor does not dictate image quality. I prefer the NEX-5n form factor, but that's me -- and I totally trust the Sony audio limiter. I see no reason to do manually something a DSP can do better -- keep peaks below 0VU clipping. Everything else can be done in post.

@Jeff H: I had an A1. I think the 4:2:2 discussion is irrelevant for where you are and what you say you want to do.

Complementing the A1 with a B camera that can do sDOF is a smart move and a common approach. Most of us have added HDSLRs to our kit to do that. The difficulties of using them is well documented. Recently, I was using a 5Dm2 as a second angle for an interview and the 12-minute limit was a pain and disruptive to the interview resulting in not getting footage at one point because getting up and pressing record again would have broken the delivery and connection of the subject.

On paper, the VG-20 is finally a competitive alternative to a DSLR that likely delivers the sDOF effect with fewer headaches (read: easier, more well focussed and exposed shots with less fussing, no 12 minute limit).

Unless you require a second camera that doubles as stills camera, the VG-20 is something I recommend you wait for and evaluate. If the VG-10 hadn't been feature-poor, I think it would have served as a nice entry level camcorder for sDOF special effects. Instead, the AF-100, FS-100 and F3 took the spot but at a much higher price point and capability. I think the VG-20 has the potential to deliver sDOF in a camcorder at a far more affordable price. YMMV.

There's no magic. You get what you pay for... occasionally but rarely, you get a little more. I'm sure the other cameras deliver more for their dollar. The issue is "What is the entry price and feature set for a successful sDOF camcorder?".

Keep in mind the NEX series according to Sony will run for "29 minutes", presuming there's no overheating issue - almost 3x as long as the Canon DSLRs - reducing, if not in most cases practically eliminating, one of the problems with shooting with a DLSR...

@Jeff H:
On paper, the VG-20 is finally a competitive alternative to a DSLR that likely delivers the sDOF effect with fewer headaches (read: easier, more well focussed and exposed shots with less fussing, no 12 minute limit).

Unless you require a second camera that doubles as stills camera, the VG-20 is something I recommend you wait for and evaluate. If the VG-10 hadn't been feature-poor, I think it would have served as a nice entry level camcorder for sDOF special effects. Instead, the AF-100, FS-100 and F3 took the spot but at a much higher price point and capability. I think the VG-20 has the potential to deliver sDOF in a camcorder at a far more affordable price. YMMV.

.

Im drooling, waiting for the VG-20 to be released. Im expecting the new Canon MIRACLE, to be out of my price range. I can afford both the VG-20 and Nex 5N combo.(A & B cams for a great price) ...and one set of lenses!

How much VG-20 HD video can I get on a 32gig card?

Thanks,
Jeff

The specs:
Sony NEX-VG20 Interchangeable Lens HD Handycam NEXVG20 B&H Photo


Here, learn to fish: It records at 24 megabits per second. That's 3 megabytes per second. Do the math.

Thanks...."teach a man to fish and you feed him forever"
"teach a man to multiply, and you send him back to school" :>)

ha...
Got it thanks LES

Keep in mind the 28Mbps/60p highest quality setting will eat memory storage faster. Wasn't too long ago that 16/17Mbps was the top rate, and equated to 8G per hour of shooting, more or less. As the frame/bitrate/processing capalilities increase, the memory usage does as well.

Thanks Dave...
Expensive media, but sure beats tape any day. Looking forward to November to see what happens.
Hopefully Santa will be good to me this year. ha

Jeff

Keep in mind the NEX series according to Sony will run for "29 minutes", presuming there's no overheating issue - almost 3x as long as the Canon DSLRs - reducing, if not in most cases practically eliminating, one of the problems with shooting with a DLSR...

Dave,

Sadly, whether a camera manufacturer limits me to 12 or 29 (or 60) minutes, it's too short. There have been several occasions in the 10 months that I have owned my GH1/GH2 A&B cams (speeches, church services, concerts) that I have been glad not to have had a recording time limit. Really looking forward to the NEX-VG20's unlimited record time (and clean HDMI out & headphone monitoring & full manual audio level control(!))

Cheers,

Bill
http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com

All cameras have limits in recording time - tapes run out, hard drives fill up, battries die.

So in that regard, there's no "endless" take cameras.

That said, the 12 minute built-in limitation certainly makes the DSLRs far less useful for event shooters. 99.9 percent of the time, it makes no difference to narrative shooters however.

But a lot of us shoot both narritves/music videos AND events like weddings, etc. The VG 20 would appear to be a nice single cam solution as it can take dedicated stills as well as the ability to record long takes.

I regard 12 minutes as WAY too short for any event type shooting where you really want a camera that can free run. BUT a 30 minute clip length (which you can just stop and restart, BTW) allows more capability to shoot a longer performance without being forced to start/stop.

Tape always had that 1 hour window... solid state is more a factor of battery life (I find this is the main weakness in the smaller cameras - they don't have room for a BIG battery compared to a regular video cam), and to a lesser degree memory card size.

Of course if heat shuts the camera down, it's all moot - and overheating is definitely a limitation in the A55/580 (similar 16Mpixel sensor to the NEX5N and the VG20, which I believe are using an updated/tweaked version of the same sensor). In the A33/35/55 part of the equation seems to be the in body active stabilization which generates additional heat - Sony flat out states you'll have short times to overheating if you leave it on, and suggests you turn it off and shoot on tripod... This was no doubt PART of the reason for the IS lenses in the "E" mount/NEX series, but there still seem to be some heat issues being reported with the NEX's, probably again because a small compact body can only dissipate so much heat - may be another advantage to the VG...

I doubt if heat causes the shutdown. You would have a "cooling off' period before restarting it...which could be quite a while. I think, as some have stated, its a matter of "class" issues with camcorder vs. camera classification.

Thanks for posting,
Jeff

Oh it definitely is heat related - in fact Sony has a chart out for the A33/55, and I believe the newer cameras (A65/A77 as well) of how long you can expect to be able to record at various ambient temps - higher the temp, the shorter the record time!

Some Canons also have heat issues - lots of data/electrons flowing through that big chip in a tight, enclosed space, and they generate heat, with no where for it to go,... depending on the conditions, you'll get a little thermometer warning pop up, and the camera WILL shut down to protect itself... been there, grabbed the video camera... happened the first test shoot with the A33... and the A55 carries the same warrnings. Again, Sony does say if you turn off the steady shot (in the body for the older A mount cameras) you in theory should be able to shoot 29 minute clips under most conditions, but they definitely mention heat and shutdown... go check out one of the Alpha series manuals, and there are reports of the NEX series also heating up and shutting down from some users...

That's where I'm waiting to see what the reports are on the new 24Mpixel sensor of the A77/NEX7 - really liking the NEX7 design as a possible upgrade to the A55, but there are many factors to consider.

How does RED overcome the heat issue, I'm curious? Does the Epic and Scarlet have heat sinks attached to the backs of the image sensors?

As for DSLRs, my theory is that during still image acquisition the movement of the internal mirror acts to cool the sensors, however. During video acquisition the mirror remains stationary. Given no opportunity to dissipate the heat, even if for a second or two, the sensors overheat.

It is possible to design an efficient video image processor without active cooling, put it in a mirrorless DSLR-style body, and shoot continuously without overheating. The GH2 is the existence proof of this statement.

I have not disassembled my GH2 to find out how Panasonic engineers achieved this, but Sony engineers and Canon engineers should. If my car overheated the way their cameras do, it would be recalled ;-)

Interesting that Sony seems to have been able to solve the problem in the VG20 using the same sensor (and processor?) as the 5N. This leads me to believe that the BIONZ processor runs hot & needs the extra volume in the camcorder body to remain operational for more than half an hour of continuous shooting.

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution (http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com)

The sensor and fast DSP need a large heatsink that a camcorder body allows.

Why Pana does not have this problem in the GH2 is a puzzle. It could be the 4096 A/D converters INSIDE Sony's sensor is the difference. Of course, that's why Sony has less noise. There is no analog circuits past the chip itself. And, to implement CDS noise reduction a Sony sensor must be clocked TWICE for every frame output.

I'm not sure why the fuss. Sony's clear -- want to shoot like you can with a camcorder, buy a VG20.

I'm coming to the conclusion the VG20 is the one for the video shooter.

But, I've got to wonder what spring 2012 will show is coming in a VG30. An OLED VF and LCD? A world-wide model? 24MP? (WHY?) Or, 24MP to support 4K2K? 36Mbps?

But, if you are making a profit, you can afford to up-grade because unlike the VG10, your VG20 will have good value.

From my last post, "Or, 24MP to support 4K2K? " to which I almost added "and what will an FS200 add at NAB 2012?

Are TV makers finally getting wise about 3D TV?

The Wall Street Journal reports that CE companies at this year's CEATEC trade conference in Japan are showcasing new 4K TVs rather than 3D sets. The 4K TV, which is not expected to be available at retail until next year, purport to offer a resolution four times better than current HDTVs.

4K TVs are expected to be the industry's next big advance prior to the introduction of so-called 'Super HDTVs,' which are likely to be ready in roughly five years. The Super HDTV picture has been said to be up to 20 times better than current sets.

WSJ also reports that Sharp this week exhibited a 60-inch 4K TV which it plans to introduce at retail next year. There was no price information available on that set.

In my experience there has never been a new digital TVtechnology that didn't have a release of matching camcorders. So, if one asks what more can a VG20 get -- and why a 16MP/24MP chip? It's 4K2K.

And, I wonder what Canon will announce. Plus, the RED announcemnt.

I'm coming to the conclusion the VG20 is the one for the video shooter.
.

And that begs the questions Steve, if I may; what exactly is a video shooter these days. Clearly the professionals shooting for the BBC and like organizations along with Hollywood nothing much has changed, other than the actual gear. But those people think (almost) nothing of spending megabucks on a task-specific piece of equipment; that’s par for the course for them. These folks are not dilly dallying over whether to purchase a DSLR or a VG 20; they already purchased an F3 or better, in all likelihood.

But for a lot of us (I include myself in here) including the OP it’s not that simple, and certainly not an either/or situation. While neither the pure ‘video shooter’ nor the pure ‘photographer’ are about to go away the convergence of the technologies is enabling the emergence of a new breed of shooter who is both and which button on the image capturing device they press depends on the situation.

Resistance continues in the form of ‘if you want to shoot video get a video camera’, and a recent case of a still camera reviewer, a classic photographer, complaining that the damn video button got in the way and he accidentally hit it a few times. He reviewed the NEX 7, a ‘still’ camera which just happens to also shoot AVCHD at 28 mbps (as does the FS100 - not saying it’s the same – I don’t know) and that was the extent of his comments about video capability, can you believe!

And so yes, for a certain type of video shooter, including those who need extended recording time, the VG 20 may well be the way to go. But for a lot of us with budget constraints who are moving towards image capture in a broader context that is still not clear.

Who would have thought that for $700 US one can obtain an image capturing device (NEX 5n) that almost fits in a pocket and rivals a DSLR for still image capturing and also shoots HD video of a quality unheard of just the other day.

My take, as we speak, is that if the image quality, both video and still, is on a par with the NEX5n and the NEX VG 20 then I’m certainly leaning towards the almost-pocketable much less expensive device, for now. But that’s just me and my specific needs, at the moment. I might well change my mind.

It is indeed quite wonderful to have such affordable choices!

"And so yes, for a certain type of video shooter, including those who need extended recording time, the VG 20 may well be the way to go. But for a lot of us with budget constraints who are moving towards image capture in a broader context that is still not clear.

Who would have thought that for $700 US one can obtain an image capturing device (NEX 5n) that almost fits in a pocket and rivals a DSLR for still image capturing and also shoots HD video of a quality unheard of just the other day. "

Last year I wrote the book on the NEX-5 rather than the VG10 for just these reasons. Frankly, I would still buy the NEX-5n, BUT I realize that for many others the long recording times, the audio controls, the handle are worth the extra $1000.

On the heat issue - as already noted, if you use the in body active steady shot, THAT is primarily when the SLT/SLR series Sony cameras have heat issues - so if you can get by without steady shot... This simply has to do with the difference between Konica/Minolta/Sony with stabilization in the BODY, vs. in the LENS. Of course with the E mount, the LENSES have the image stabilization...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the GH sensor a smaller size than APS-C? I'd presume the larger the chip, the more challenge one deals with to dissipate heat from the surface and the "middle" of the larger area. Coupled with the limited interior space in a SLR/SLT, you run into a simple engineering challenge - how to keep the size of the camera small, while allowing sufficient ventilation (lest we forget, the Panasonic engineers have one of the few VIDEO cameras with a FAN to blow air through for cooling...), and heat dissipation. Of course AMBIENT temperatures have an effect on the situation as well, as higher temps prevent cooling.


@Steve - interesting take on where things go next - I think 3D has sort of withered, and in the current economy, I wish them luck promoting newer, "better" (AKA as hide your wallet expensive), higher resolution display options. Aren't we already pushing the limits of human vision on a decent 1920x1080 display up to around maybe 42" screen size? Then there's the "delivery" - what exactly does one use to store/distribute these new gigantic data streams? And of course, "where's the beef?" (AKA content). aside from bragging rights, which are probably already pretty well served by "lookie my new 60" tee-vee", who really is going to be getting all excited about these higher resolution displays?

It's all fine and good to advance technology, but I don't see a whole lot of future for anything beyond "HD" for at least a few more years (maybe in 10 or so?) - the broadcasters just got done with the HD switchover, most people hopefully are getting their HD sets set up right so they see what they SHOULD look like, and content is still moslty served up on little silver discs... or maybe increasingly over the internet.

I guess what I'm thinking is that HD made sense - you get a lot better image relative to SD... but aren't we approaching the point of diminishing returns?


From a practical standpoint, I shot some 60p "footage" with a sub $400 Sony P&S (TX100, just picked up one slightly used, under $200, $300 will buy one any day of the week), it looks pretty dang good - small chip, but still, it fits in a pocket... I'd presume the NEX5 and VG20 will be "better", but given some samples I've seen on photography sites, we're not talking magnitudes of quality improvement - Most people would be pretty happy with the results.

@Steve - interesting take on where things go next - I think 3D has sort of withered, and in the current economy, I wish them luck promoting newer, "better" (AKA as hide your wallet expensive), higher resolution display options. Aren't we already pushing the limits of human vision on a decent 1920x1080 display up to around maybe 42" screen size? Then there's the "delivery" - what exactly does one use to store/distribute these new gigantic data streams? And of course, "where's the beef?" (AKA content). aside from bragging rights, which are probably already pretty well served by "lookie my new 60" tee-vee", who really is going to be getting all excited about these higher resolution displays?

Having used a projector to present a 72" to 85" image 13 feet away I -- and many others a huge fans of "it can't be too big." When I used the projector to fill a wall it got even better. I believe Japan is clearly going this way.

The problem is that to really fill big screens with detail 4K2K is needed.

And, every movie in the vaults can be converted to 4K2K. And, RED, etc, features are shot at 4K2K. Plus, 4K2K is used as a DI for film.

You could say everything FILM is best at 4K2K. (HD is a huge copromise.)

So Sony owns the films. It makes the production equipment that is already 4K2K (A65). Sony, et al, will make the new HDTVs. And Japan, Inc. wants to introduce SuperHD in 5 years so it's time for the next step.

Bottom-line, CES 2012 will be all about 4K2K. The new monitors will be $10K, but so were the first Sharps. In a few years they'll be at Costco for $2000.

Best of all, just when everyone has bought a $100 BD player. Japan Inc. gets to sell a new line of $1000 BD players. And, the studios can reissue their library once again.

The bad economy has nothing to do with it. First adopters don't care and the RICH are only getting richer.

Best of all 4K2K isn't easily streamed or broadcast (until everything goes H.264). You've got to buy or rent BD discs. Sony bashes Apple's iTunes. You want the best, all the elements come from Japan, Inc.or from dish and cable where folks PAY to see content.

Staying with HD will be as silly as staying with DV "because it's good enough for our 35" TVs." Those who leap fast and first to 4K2K will thrive over the next decade.

Put another way, Japan's economy depends on our "buying the next big thing."

SO the theory is "if you build it they will come"? I thought that was the theory behind this now faltering round of 3D...

I'm not in disagreement that more/bigger=better, but I'm not sure whether I'd agree that HD will fall away so quickly - then again, I hear there's a 36Mpixel sensor coming for a Sony Full Frame DSLR... the 16Mpixel sensors of current cams are a nice step up, and the 24Mpixel sensors seem rather nice...

Within reason, more resolution is certainly better, but unless you've got ways to deliver the CONTENT, and GOOD content, I don't see it moving quite so fast. Keep in mind that there are those who suggest that "bad" 3D killed "good" 3D - meaning that people won't necessarily pay the extra cost of entry for less than stellar content, just because it's got the latest buzzword attached.

I'll just be the guy over here in the corner waiting for the Holodeck projector... <wink>


PS - where do you think the "sweet spot" in terms of additional screen size is where the additional resolution will become truly noticeable to the average viewer? I know I saw a huge TV on the wall at the local big box, and I sure noticed the pixels, but I think it was 70" or something like that, and I don't have a big enough room to even put such a beast in!

Steve - brilliant point about Sony owning that huge backlog of material. Obviously, they have lots of reasons (every movie in their vault) to "upgrade" to 4K equipment.

Problem is, I have my doubts about most Americans feeling the same way any time soon. I have a 720p 100" projector and it look pretty darn good even with standard DVDs. Yes, I know there's better consumer equipment (and lots better around the corner) out there. But my kids don't know or care about that. My wife doesn't know or care to know. My friends - most of whom are pros in video/movie production - know there's better but don't care either. They jsut want to hang out and have fun when we're together.

At a certain point, it's just gravy,

Now, if Sony comes out witha 70' 4K for $2,000, then sure they'll get lots of buyers (me included). But that generally speaking isn't how TV rollouts work. For the foreseeable future, the 4K market would seem to be to be the very rich, or small movie theatres, hotels, and the like. A market to be sure, but far short of HD saturation in the States as it stands now.

Will it happen? Sure. But not on a wide scale for at least 5 years (which is like 2 camera cycles at this point), and more likely 10... when Xbox 4K, 4K ESPN, and 4K porn are available.

I fully agree about 2 camera cycles -- until most everything is 4K2K. But, I owned the first HD camcorder, the HD1, which came about a year before the Sony Z1.

That first year was really fun!

I don't care about a monitor, because I've already experimented with editing 4K2K to HD with FCP, Media Composer, and iMovie. Still have to try FCP X.

Think of being able to re-crop, add zoom, add pan -- to video. One will be able to do with video what every photographer does every day.

We've seen JVC's 4K2K -- actually 2 of them. I can't believe Sony is not going to use the VG20 and/or FS100 platform to introduce 4K2K at NAB. What other role will 24MP chips have in video?

HD needs 3.6MP before de-bayering. That's a 1.8X. For 4096x2160 that means a 16:9 16MP window. So a 3;2 or 4:3 sensor must be larger. Assuming about 1.5X, that's about 24MP.

So I see the next step is a VG30 with a 24MP sensor next fall.

I also believe the sensor can be binned to obtain 3.6MP with greater sensitivity.

Logically, they already have the 24Mp chip (A77/NEX7) and are producing some pretty good video from the samples I've seen, and so it's not probably much of a jump.

No arguing that having more resolution in the source file would be nifty, for the reasons you cite, just as delivering SD from HD was a handy thing! And yes, fond memories of the HC1...

OK, so you sold me on the camera... and I buy that they could offer it almost immediately with existing tech, presuming there is sufficient processing bandwidth and storage capacity... gonna need some pretty fast 128G SD cards I guess!

JVC's prototype uses 4 cards! Supposely each quadrant went to one card. Bad!

I think they are revising the unit so each card has every-other pixel (V & H) so one card is a FullHD proxy. After editing, during export -- if you want 4K2K -- the other cards are used. BUT, part of the re-design may be to support a single card. CF?

Later I'll post the math on a 24MP chips.

The real fun begins with a 36MP chip -- which Sony may have for a Full Frame (FF) camera!