With my first experience with the Cinematone in the VG20, I thought what Sony was providing was a flatter, less contrasty image. After having worked with it a couple of days, I am now thinking otherwise. I think what is actually happening is that Sony is adding something akin to the sepia toning we used to do with photo graphs. It give the image a different and flatter look, but it seems to be an additive process, not a subtractive one.

I never had liked the Cinematone that was on board the FX1, but didn't realize that it was probably for that same reason.

Anybody have any thoughts on Cinematone ?

I've always felt that the "Cinematone" settings were sort of hokey. Kind of a consumer cam artifice.
They may provide a slightly different gamma curve, but my impression, like yours, is that it really just shifts the color tone/ color sat a bit.
This is in contrast to the fabulous gamma/matrix settings in the Sony EX1/EX3, including several "Cine" Gamma settings that allowed you to manipulate all aspects of the exposure curve/ knee/ black level/ color sat/ and etc. This allowed construction of various profiles for a variety of "looks", lighting situations- whatever you might need...

I think what is actually happening is that Sony is adding something akin to the sepia toning we used to do with photo graphs. It give the image a different and flatter look, but it seems to be an additive process, not a subtractive one

Anybody have any thoughts on Cinematone ?

I think I said that several days ago. :)

Judging by your footage, I'd say the cinematone looked inferior to the default setting. Your description of it as an "additive process" seems spot on. Sort of like a bad preset in an editing program.

The default setting seems nice - seems very effective for natural, day light shots. But that's an environment where almost all video cameras do well. It's in every camera's wheelhouse so to speak. There is a reason why Hollywood's in California - all that yummy light.

But if that's it (assuming the cineamatone is largely useless) for ability to alter the image, other than white balancing and exposure (plus a few other minor changes), then there is no other way to describe the camera than as being fundamentally crippled, or shortchanged. And shooting in challenging conditions is what Sony does best right now. It's a very large part of the appeal for all the new E mount cameras. Apparently, Sony really thinks VG20 buys would cut into FS100 sales.

Which is strange. Just as FS100 buyers aren't F3 buyers, VG20 buyers are a separate group. If I buy a camera other than the VG20, it won't be the F3, or AF100 - it will be a either the AF200 or Mark III - cameras not even announced yet.

I don't always agree with Steve's opinions, but it's very hard to argue with his opinions on this cam. Why would anyone buy an $1,600 camera from a company, when they have a very similar product that does more for 3x as less?

It would make some sense to cripple the 5n - it makes no sense to do it to the VG20.

One of the following possibilities would be ideal:

A) Sony provides consumers with a computer software that allows one to adjust the variables of the Cinematone preset. Yes, users will be limited to one preset, but each user can adjust the gamma curve, knee, etc. to his liking.

or


B) Someone finds a way to hack the firmware to allow for the adjustments mentioned above.

or

C) Sony offers consumers an added service where one can have the gamma curves and Cinematone adjusted to one's liking by an authorized service center.

If I'm reading this thread correctly, most of you like to shoot flat and CC in post. Most think the VG20 shoots good video in the default settings. That said, why would the lack of CC in the VG20 firmware be of concern to you?

Considering the price, interchangeability of lenses,tape-less shooting, and small size, do you think you will purchase this camcorder in it's current configuration ?
(Chris excluded)


Jeff

Jeff:

With the fact that the adverstisement misrepresented what was aboard, I too have to make a decision whether I will send back or not. While I understand that it was likely an honest mistake, I am pretty sure that Sony will give me the opportunity to return the camera. I have to decide whether I will.

This camera, shot in standard mode, produces some spectacular images. I am pleasantly surprised and I am seriously considering keeping it. That will be part of a new thread coming up.

Heck, let's not even talk about CC, what about the ability to reduce sharpening - something nearly every DP recommends?

I actually don't like to shoot flat - but I do want to have some options when it comes to choosing my color pallet. And it looks like - beyond WB - that ability is missing from this camera.

Chris & John V.

Chris,
It seems to me you are basically satisfied with the VG20. It makes good video, lenses are interchangeable, and you got it for a little over 2grand. The next step-up would cost 4 to 6 grand. So, without, the presets/effects it looks like you have a great deal.

John V,
Would you not be able to do everything you want with some CC and other video adjustments with your software ? That is, if the video that Chris is showing is good enough for your taste.

jeff

One of the things is that I am sitting here with a T2i and a 5D II. So if I got in one of those tough shooting situations where a flatter image might be wanted, then I am good to go.

On the other side, I could get pretty much the same image capabilities with the 5n, for about $1700.

However, one of my purposes in looking at this camera is to use as a rental camera. The form factor and the ease of use because of the lack of major adjustments may be a plus in the rental area.

A whole lot of things to consider.

Robert - I'm still a bit interested in the camera, but w/o those features, it's hard for me to see how it's gonna be better then the T2i (which I already own) or the Mark II (which is one of the VG20 alternatives for me), particularly in low light situations (I primarily make horror films).

Again, I'd want to see a lot more low light situations shot from the VG20. I crave the clean low light ability of the FS100 - but think it's too much for what it does - see this thread for my reasoning:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-avchd-nex-fs100/501337-holding-off-purchasing-nex-fs100.html

If the VG20 can come close to the FS100 for low light, I'd think about it. If might end up being just fine with no color/sharpening options. But it's hard to believe that's going to be true. I love the Canon's, but can't shoot anything past 800 ISO w/o an unacceptable amount of grain. I figure the Mark II to be maybe a stop better - 1,600 ISO - but even that doesn't touch the FS100.

And Chris (and Steve Mullen) make a great point - why buy the VG20 when I can get more options from the 5n?

This will give you some idea of how the 5D and VG20 compare. The grabs from Vegas are labeled accordingly:

These from Canon

These from VG 20

The VG20 grabs are noiser but even in this environment I still see the awful 5D MkII aliasing hiding. I'm with John about one point, the default (non-adjustable) sharpening of the VG20 seems borderline too high, that could be a concern because you can't fix it in post. The T2i I can't comment about, have not seen its images, but the 5D2 I'm very negative about because of its aliasing that has wrecked some videos for me. Based on the above, I'd go with the VG20 in spite of the superior low light of the 5D2, but I'd like to see more from the VG20 to see how the sharpening plays out.

Edit:
On further review, the VG20 sharpening outlines seem less noticeable as you reduce gain. Maybe it's okay...Just my opinion.

Generally Sony's default sharpening provides the optimal amount of fine detail. But, there may be be a level of ringing (edge outline) that one does NOT want to see on any big screen.

I don't know of any camera at even a QTR the price where one can't reduce the edge even though it will reduce fine detail.

All these topic are covered in my NEX Family eBook. Maybe it's time to update to the 5n because there are two really big topics we aren't talking about: lenses and editing p60.

So it "looks" like 18db is fairly noise free, anything down from that is good to go, and anything above would benefit from a "wash and go" from NeatVideo. I wonder, how lit was the room from your human eye perspective in these shots?

My VG10, which I must say is pretty horrid, still works as a B camera for those handy little shots, as long as I "Neat" the files, and pull my EX1 shots back to help match things up, also, I use slo-mo a lot, the Vg20, with 50p will suddenly become a really viable tool, as the 5N cannot shoot for hours without running out of power, stopping because of file length limitation, or just overheating.

UK prices are stupid, I found a body only, for £1600, whilst the same dealer was showing the full body and lens for £1750. The lens is marketed here for £650 inc. tax sooo, the body should be £1200 ish ??

Guess its a wait and see how this all pads out, I'm not worried too much by the lack of set ups in the camera, editing with everything from RED to D5 to EX1 to PD150 here, there are ways to deal with most issues, I'm just happy to see 50P, expanded focus, zebras and is there a lanc? no I guess not.

Paul :-)

"So it "looks" like 18db is fairly noise free, anything down from that is good to go, and anything above would benefit from a "wash and go" from NeatVideo. I wonder, how lit was the room from your human eye perspective in these shots? "

Responsed: I assume you are talking about stills. That was in windowless garage. In back of camera was a two bulb shop light pointing away and bouncing off a ligher wall. There was bulb overhead. Think of it as a room without a lot of reflective surfaces and a lot of clutter blocking direct light, with dark shadow corners.

"... there are ways to deal with most issues, I'm just happy to see 50P, expanded focus, zebras and is there a lanc? no I guess not."

1. My shots all 24p. Except golf ones I posted. I mostly shoot 24p.

2. Expanded focus works well, though button is not hand form my fat hands when hand holding. Note, it will work even as you are shooting, which is different from my FX1 or my Canon DSLRs.

3. Zebras only settable at 100% and 70% Would like to see 90%. If you are at 100%, you are definitely pushing into clipping area.

4. No lanc I could find on camera. Does have a remote. It actually operates menu system, and starts and stops. Its a standard remote, because it has zoom funtion which of course does not work with the manual zoom.

[QUOTE=Chris Barcellos;

4. No lanc I could find on camera. Does have a remote. It actually operates menu system, and starts and stops. Its a standard remote, because it has zoom funtion which of course does not work with the manual zoom.[/QUOTE]


The newer Sony's access lanc functions through the AV 'D' socket

regards
Paul

The AV set up for the VG20 is something different from what I have seen before. While there is HDMI out, there is also a single socket that handles composite and component out- Something like the old socket on the FX1 component out, but with this socket also carries sound. Is that what you refer too ? Nothing in handbook that I can find. There is a mic socket on the handle, and earphone jack, but I am not so sure there is any way to hook a controller into the camera, There is a USB port too.

The AV set up for the VG20 is something different from what I have seen before. While there is HDMI out, there is also a single socket that handles composite and component out- Something like the old socket on the FX1 component out, but with this socket also carries sound. Is that what you refer too ? Nothing in handbook that I can find. There is a mic socket on the handle, and earphone jack, but I am not so sure there is any way to hook a controller into the camera, There is a USB port too.

The AV socket is multi purpose, the socket will accept the Sony RM-AV2 Remote Commander which controls Zoom, Rec start stop for Video/ Photo and on off.
Also a range of AV Sony tripods (not very well made) Including VCT-80V use the socket with the above features built in to the handle and add frame guides on/off and zoom speed.
If you search on line you will find adapter cables that will allow you to plug in the standard lanc, but i'm not sure if that will access any more features.

Regards
Paul

I'll presume that the VG20 has the "D" shaped A/V socket? Chris, from your description that sounds like the one - it has multiple I/O functions depending on what's plugged into it. ONE of those functions is an interface for the traditional "LANC" protocol.

SInce this camera uses a manual zoom, I would expect the simple AV2 to only start/stop recording and shoot a still. Beyond that, there may or may not be other funcions of the camera accessible via that port and LANC protcol. There are a number of functions that CAN be triggered via LANC instructions, but the implementation seems to be rather spotty beyond the very basic ones... for simplicity, let's just say sometimes things don't trigger as expected... and there aren't too many "advanced" controllers out there. My suspicion is that this (LANC) was one of those "standards" that never really became "standard", but rather has mfr and camera specific implementations, as even different Sony cameras will have different handling from the experimentation I did on the A/V LANC interface...

I can now confirm that Handbook indeed indicates that port can be used as camera control too. Thanks for pointing that out guys.