I just authored to dvd from original footage shot at 1920*1080i, 16Mps avchd. (Used DVDA) I finally got the render to an acceptable level of quality but I noticed what is probably defined as "moire" effect.

The footage is of a diesel locomotive and passenger car powering to it's destination. The moire is especially prevalent around the locomotives radiator fans and even the railroad tracks.

Is there a way to eliminate this in the render settings? I read something about gaussian blur but will this cause blurriness as a side effect?

Thanks,

Eric

Try this:

On your Vegas timeline, right click on the clip, click properties, then uncheck Maintain aspect ratio and check Reduce interlace flicker. Click OK. Re-render, burn etc.

Any better?

The added moire is created in the rescaling step from 1920x1080 to 720(704)x480 by Vegas, which uses a simple bicubic or bilinear algorithm.

Would be advisable to get it rescaled first to 720x480 using the Lanczos algorithm before working with it in Vegas or DVDA. Handbrake (a free download) can do this.

Looks like aliasing to me, not moire. DVDA is not known for good resampling. Try resampling the video to the right size (720x480 NTSC or 720x576 PAL) with the proper PAR for widescreen before you even load DVDA.

If I rescale the video before editing, only problem will be if I want the choice to offer both DVD and BluRay versions of a video. I would have to edit each version (bluray and dvd) from scratch, no?

Yeah, I don't believe that's moiré; looks more like an interlacing problem to me.

You are aware that you should set a de-interlace method (either Blend or Interpolate) in your Project Properties when resizing Interlaced video, aren't you?

...Jerry

Jerry,

I had set the project settings to interpolate fields. Upper field first.

To be honest, I haven't quite understood the difference between blend and interpolate. Or whether upper or lower fields for field order.

I am just getting the feet wet with hd, and I am finding it can get pretty technical.

Also, I just downloaded Handbrake. Trying to make sense of it right now.

Perhaps there's a reason why this won't work in your scenario but every time I have 'jaggies' caused by temporal displacement of interlaced fields I do what I mentioned in my earlier post and it works perfectly.

Can anyone tell me if I'm doing something I shouldn't? I'm working primarily with HDV, some SD, and I am in PAL land.

Ian,

I tried your tip but in the preview window it didn't change anything. Still the "jaggies". I haven't rendered out to mpg2 yet though. I'll try rending next.

Thanks.

@Eric,

Suggest you set your Project Properties using the "Match Media Settings" wizard. Normally 1080i footage will show up as upper field first. When you render SD Vegas will automagically change that to lower field first - but you don't have to concern yourself with that.

My understanding is that Vegas resizes by deinterlacing, resizing & re-interlacing. Blend vs Interpolate are merely two different methods of deinterlacing. Some suggest using "Blend" for slow moving footage; "Interpolate" for fast moving footage. I, frankly, haven't seen much difference.

HandBrake really doesn't come into play when rendering for DVD - it's used to produce progressive footage.

Finally, one thing I forgot to mention in my earlier post - make sure you set your "Video Rendering Quality" to "Best" as that signals Vegas to use the superior bicubic resizing algorithm.

Hope this helps!
...Jerry

Edit: One more thing, here's a tutorial I made a while back to resize 1080i to SD DVD. It's not perfect, but normally works pretty good. There are many-many long threads about how to get good quality SD DVD by going outside of Vegas, but this method works with Vegas alone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjXZMUnSPxE

I'm sorry, I didn't look at the pictures before posting. It does look more like an aliasing problem than moire, but there is something else to consider, field order.

1080/59.94i (HD) is upper field first.
480/59.94i (DVD) is lower field first.

I don't know if the pictures were of a moving train or a parked train.

When it comes to de-interlacing, Vegas blend or interpolate are both inferior to yadif. That's why I still think there could be an advantage to resizing and decombing with Handbrake to 480/29.97p before using Vegas or DVDA. My $0.02

Otherwise agree with all Jerry says.

When it comes to de-interlacing, Vegas blend or interpolate are both inferior to yadif. That's why I still think there could be an advantage to resizing and decombing with Handbrake to 480/29.97p before using Vegas or DVDA.

That can be done and, indeed, HandBrake is superior to Vegas as it uses yadif for deinterlacing & Lanczos for resizing. However, you might get some stutter as you will be going from 59.94 fields (not frames) per second to 29.97 fields per second. If stutter is not an issue, this should work fine (although certainly a more complicated workflow). So, it becomes a tradeoff.

...Jerry

I still have tons to learn!

I am going to continue working on the interlacing issues. However, if you look at the first photo, notice the locomotive grill vents. When viewing the actual footage (train is moving) the horizontal vents wave like a flag on a blustery day. Would that not be moire?

I guess it could be moiré, but this is what I'd call moiré

...Jerry

Hi

It is a de-interlacing problem.

Some things to check, you need to make sure rendering is set to Best, otherwise de-interlacing will not take place when you render. What Vegas needs to do is de-interlaced the 1080i to progressive, then resize, then re-interlace, if the rendering method isn't set to best some steps are skipped.

Check that on Project Properties full-resolution rendering quality is set to Best, and de-interlace method is set to Blend. When you render to the DVD template, click Customise, width ideally should be 704x576 or 480 so I suggest changing it as that puts it closer to the aspect ratio of 1920x1080. Field order change to upper field first, tick prioritize quality over speed, slide the quality level to maximum and up the maximum bit rate to 8000. Click the Project tab and set video rendering quality to best and have another go.

Even if everything is perfect with the settings, if you are viewing on a computer you can get this effect if your media player doesn't de-interlace the footage. So in effect there is nothing wrong with the render, it's just your computer. VLC media player for example usually doesn't de-interlace unless you tell it to. If you bring it back onto the Vegas timeline, depending on settings, you may also see this effect.

Windows Media player should automatically de-interlace so worth trying to play it in that if you haven't already.

As others have eluded to, Vegas doesn't do a very good job in resizing, so you may never get a pleasing downsize to SD. You can always try adding a tiny amount of Gaussian blur, just enough to barely see a difference in the HD footage, this will help remove some of the detail that will be causing some issues when resizing down. Also note it will never look that good on a computer, for one you can't help compare it to the original HD version, and second interlaced standard definition really needs to be watched on a TV with a good de-interlacer across a large room!

Regards

Phil

btw, one more thing. I can pretty much duplicate what I think I see in your locomotive, by NOT using the "Match Media Settings" wizard. i.e. my Project Setting were 720x480 NTSC Widescreen and my source footage was 1080 60i.

...Jerry

Vegas is crazy in my estimation, when you go from HDV to SD 720 by 480.

I discovered quite by accident that when I rendered an HDV project to Mainconcept MP4 HD 1280 x 720, in 30p, and then render that file to Standard SD DVD, I get a much nicer finished product, and eliminate those issues. Don't ask me why, but you might give it a try.

Okay, I did a test - starting with a 1920x1080 60i clip shot with my Canon HG21.

First case: I resized & deinterlaced the clip in HandBrake. Then returned the resized clip to Vegas and re-interlaced to 720x480 60i.

Second case: I resized & deinterlaced the 1080i clip completely in Vegas, making sure the project properties matched the source footage, Video Rendering Quality = Best, and Deinterlace method = Interpolate.

Results of the test are here: CompareHBvsVegas.zip (http://www.jazzythedog.com/sharing/CompareHBvsVegas.zip) (I would have loved to upload to Vimeo & embed, but it is important that the test be viewed as interlaced video). The "CompareHBvsVegas.mpg" is the comparison video. "BackDeck.mts" is the original footage.

My conclusions:
1) Both methods to a fairly good job of resizing the 1080i source to 720x480 Widescreen with a minimum, if any, artifacts.
2) The HandBrake method displays a minor, but noticable stutter in motion (watch the fence posts).

Is the stutter significant? No, but why go thru the extra steps of HandBrake renders when there actually appears to be a degradation in quality (albeit minor)?

As will all this stuff, YMMV,
...Jerry

btw, For resizing & deinterlacing interlaced footage to progressive for web delivery, I'm a huge proponent of HandBrake.

btw2: The 60i->30p->60i problem can be solved while retaining the improved yadif deinterlacing & Lanczos resizing, by using VirtualDub.

Lots of good information/tips being shared here. I don't know what I'd do without a site like this.

Thanks guys!

Okay, I did a test - starting with a 1920x1080 60i clip shot with my Canon HG21.

First case: I resized & deinterlaced the clip in HandBrake. Then returned the resized clip to Vegas and re-interlaced to 720x480 60i.

Second case: I resized & deinterlaced the 1080i clip completely in Vegas, making sure the project properties matched the source footage, Video Rendering Quality = Best, and Deinterlace method = Interpolate.

Results of the test are here: CompareHBvsVegas.zip (http://www.jazzythedog.com/sharing/CompareHBvsVegas.zip) (I would have loved to upload to Vimeo & embed, but it is important that the test be viewed as interlaced video).

My conclusions:
1) Both methods to a fairly good job of resizing the 1080i source to 720x480 Widescreen with a minimum, if any, artifacts.
2) The HandBrake method displays a minor, but noticable stutter in motion (watch the fence posts).

Is the stutter significant? No, but why go thru the extra steps of HandBrake renders when there actually appears to be a degradation in quality (albeit minor)?

As will all this stuff, YMMV,
...Jerry

btw, For resizing & deinterlacing interlaced footage to progressive for web delivery, I'm a huge proponent of HandBrake.

btw2: The 60i->30p->60i problem can be solved while retaining the improved yadif deinterlacing & Lanczos resizing, by using VirtualDub.

I check your results. I'd be curious to compare it to my method. Wouldn't want to put link your original file for that, or do it the way I proposed ?

@Chris Barcellos: Okay, if you re-download CompareHBvsVegas.zip (http://www.jazzythedog.com/sharing/CompareHBvsVegas.zip), I've included the original "BackDeck.mts" in the zip file. Pls note the audio says, "this is PF60". That's an obvious error as my camera will not shoot in PF60, I should have said "this is 60i". You can use MediaInfo to confirm this.

Good Luck with your testing!
...Jerry

The strobing on the fence posts with Handbrake is temporal motion from 59.94 going to 29.97 when 2 fields are combined into 1 frame, so I agree it's not the best solution. VirtualDub has a yadif solution by converting 60i to 60p, and lanczos resizing to 720x480 but it's limited in the input formats it accepts. Using Vegas to interpolate fields is far less preferable than than advanced deinterlacing because it loses half the vertical resolution. On the other hand, DVD video itself is a throwback and people demanding it likely have lower expectations of quality.

@Chris Barcellos: Okay, if you re-download CompareHBvsVegas.zip (http://www.jazzythedog.com/sharing/CompareHBvsVegas.zip), I've included the original "BackDeck.mts" in the zip file. Pls note the audio says, "this is PF60". That's an obvious error as my camera will not shoot in PF60, I should have said "this is 60i". You can use MediaInfo to confirm this.

Good Luck with your testing!
...Jerry

Thanks Jerry.


Heres how mine turned out... original--> mainconcept 1280 x 720 Mpg4 29.97p ---> mainconcept DVDArchitect WideScreen

Hi

Definitely a setting issue on Vegas. I took the original clip as is, made sure the settings were correct, rendered from Vegas to DVD Architect Widescreen settings and upped the quality settings as per my previous post and the output was free from any interlacing artefacts. There was some stepping on the horizontals which is to be expected, however a horizontal 0.001 Gaussian Blur removed most of this issue and cleaned things up.

Regards

Phil