Hey guys,
Link below is to a dance from a concert I filmed last weekend.
Getting different feedback from different people about editing styles for this type of shoot.
My first cut was a bit like a music video, lots of cutting and transitions.
The client pointed out, quite rightly on reflection I think, that the parents who buy the DVDs want to see their kids, so if you always concentrate on the action there may be a few kids that dont get seen much, if at all.
So, cut 2 is below,
safe enough?
or still to busy?
Objectivity is shot right now for this genre, lol.
password= cmda
This is a password protected video on Vimeo

15 years experience shooting dance concerts and recitals, and I'm a parent of 2 dancers. First of all very creative. Here is my take on recital videos. I'm shooting for various clients. Each parent wants to see their child, the choreographers want to see the entire dance with all dancers entering and exiting. My opinion is you still went a little too "music video". You have to remember that their may have been a child in that dance that, that is their only class and dance they are in. Others might be in many classes and dances. Also some choreographers will put the stronger dancers in the front, so they tend to be prominent on close ups. I like to think that I am documenting the event to be viewed later, not making an entertainment video. Here are some things that I do:
1. I have 1 client that just wants to pay for 1 camera. So during a recital performance I tend to zoom in when they bunch together in a group. Always fill the frame with dancers. Zoom out as they expand back out. On older dancers I will stay full unless there is a solo, duo or trio. Seasoned dancers want to see themselves head to toe so they can see every movement. Parents of younger kids want to see their kids faces. So if they are in a straight line, which a lot of times they are, then I will at some point zoom in and pan across the line head to toe in order to see the faces of all the kids. Depending on the dance and movement no more than twice. If they bunch up into a "picture pose" at the end, zoom in to show them all. Again this is for one camera.
2. For 2 cameras I have 1 in a very similar position as yours stage right. Then look for key points always staying head to toe on the wide and no closer than waist up on the close. I will still zoom in and fill the screen on the wide when they bunch up. I usually won't cut to close ups more than 2-3 times per dance, again depending on the content.
Suggestions: Stick with cuts take out the dissolves and any other transitions. It's just distracting in this context. Don't edit quick shots to beat of the music, it's not a music video. Watch the extreme face close-ups. Dancers want to see their bodies. I really liked your behind the stage looking down shot, that was a great idea. Just don't over use it. Be careful not to use it when something really important or cute is being projected toward the front. Something that might be cool is to edit a few of the dances like you did and offer them as bonus footage. So imagine you have a more straight forward cut of the dance but also the music video cut of the dance. I can see that working for dances like your example. Keep up the good work.

Thanks David, everything you said was almost word for word discussed with client last night.
She was ok with that second cut, but I will be cutting a lot more conservatively for the rest of them.
The kids loved it, but the parents are the ones that pay for the DVDs.
I have to find the happy medium where everyone is happy.

But on the plus side, after a day of feeling lost about where I was going with this, last night I got a call from one of the mothers who saw this preview (below). She was in tears saying how beautiful it was and if her daughter never danced again, at least she had this forever.
I love what we do :)
Savanna Crossley dancing for C.M.D.A. on Vimeo

Thanks Guys

Useful info too!! I have one coming up on the 20th from 4pm to 9pm !! Whew!!

Gerald?? Do you charge for the onsite time and then for DVD's or just the DVD's ...any idea on what sort of prices are fair here??

BTW: Why is this in the Vegas Forum???? Surely it should be in events???

Chris

Hi Chris,
DVDs are going to be $40.00 of this concert with no charge to the Dance school. I'm very new to this so I dont know if this is average or not.
Sorry if its in the wrong forum,
I just post everything in here because I like the people that are always here, again sorry if its against forum rules. Ill try to branch out of my comfy Vegas pond and spend more time in the rest of DVinfo.
cheers.

Cool. Your next piece was very nice, some really nice close-ups. My only suggestion would be that when they are doing major body movements like arm swings, leg swings or jumps to try to show the whole body. Living with a dancer and dancer's Mom, you should hear them when they watch So You Think You Can Dance. They want to see the whole dance. Easy to remember, young no-to little technique, let's see those smiling faces, older - technique let's see the technique. You put in some really nice close-ups during her solo, you could really see her emotion. Here's a video of my daughter's solo from last year. It's just a single camera in the audience, but a dance college saw it and asked her to audience to go to school there.
Scotti - The Perfectionist - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-etxz1ocY5I)
Stoney D at DDCE performance - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H4_u12OFFc)
Here's a clip of my son from the same show. These were taken from dress rehearsals, since they had someone else shoot the show. Not as creative as yours, but it shows the technique well. Take care. Once again, I really dig the up high in upstage shot. I wish I would have thought about that for some shows that I did. I might have to borrow it for future projects ;)

Thanks Guys

This is all very helpful indeed for me for my gig on 20th!!

Last year I did a Christmas Show and I had one cam up high near the sound/lighting cabin with a feed from the desk and kept that wide so the stage was covered and then my second cam was left of the stage for closeups ... that seems to work fine ...! This dance recital has to be done live so I need to also stay out of the way ..I was hoping to shoot the dress rehearsal then i could have got up on stage or even used the stedicam for solo dancers!!

Shucks Gerald!! I'm only doing mine for $30!! However over West we are cheaper than you guys anyway!!

Chris

Im doing one this week for $30.00 as well Chris.
Less cams in this one though.
In the past most guys do one cam for the same price anyway, I just want to try and deliver something a bit more high quality than what the kids are used to.
Im lucky I guess this isnt my primary source of income, so I can spend a bit more time on it.

Chris be careful about shooting the dress rehearsal. I use to do that and got burned a few times when dancers changed their costumes or in one dance during the rehearsal a dancer wore a knee brace but didn't wear it during the performance. It was funny I would sometime have to count the dancers on the large groups to make sure they were the same numbers during both performances.

David, you must be proud, they are amazing. I cant believe that thing he does with his ankles, makes me cringe just watching it.
cheers
:)

A lot of times, when I'm in this situation, I'll give a timecode disc to the dance co. with a draft of my cuts (I do a first cut with my best guess as to which angle they'd want based on all the criteria you've all been mentioning). And then the dance co. will have one opportunity to list any times when I should default back to the wide cam. That process has been pretty simple and I've come to better anticipate what they'll want the first time.

Good points. Thanks Gerald. They work hard and I am very proud. My daughter is pursuing it for a college degree, while my son, well he's a typical 16 year old that wants to dance one day, become a chef the next and the day after that design and play video games for a living. :)

I've shot a couple hundred weddings, but until yesterday I'd never done a school recital, etc. last night I shot a Christmas show put on by some elementary kids at a Montessori school, and I've never enjoyed shooting anything so much. I don't have kids, so it was pretty amazing and hilarious, of course.

I shot multicam though they only paid for a single camera, but I shot in 1080 24p as a lark, and it looks really good. I will try and post something later.

Hi David

Yes, I have been caught out before now!! Especially if someone does a costume change or even a music change your are in big trouble!! These guys are having awards presented too so it's a live gig...I'll only go to the dress rehearsal to scope out the venue as I haven't shot there before!!

Jeff? I did a Christmas one last year and it was fun!! Running two cameras on my own was a big stressful but I enjoyed the experience!!

The feedback and hints here are really useful

Chris

I've just returned from shooting a dance concert.

All the concerts I shoot I am just hired as a camera operator and contracted for the editing too. I think it's hard to really vary the formula too much given the many constraints (live event, bad lighting, cramped spaces to setup, etc)

One idea I have though about lately, and I'm thinking of suggesting this to the client, is to setup a small unmanned camera down the front on either side of the stage, shooting at full wide. I think this would give a really interesting perspective, breaking up the monotony of the flat-looking images you get from right up the back of the theatre. The wider angle and perspective would allow for everone to be in the shot, but have a few dancers 'featured' in a way by being closer to the camera.

John, I would never run without an unmanned camera. It takes the stress out of the shoot, it doesn't add to it, and it gives you the freedom to do what you need to do with your zoom from the rear.

I shot dozens of four camera weddings alone over this past wedding season, now that can be stressful. The Christmas thing was the simplest (and most fun) thing I've ever shot.

I've just returned from shooting a dance concert.

One idea I have though about lately, and I'm thinking of suggesting this to the client, is to setup a small unmanned camera down the front on either side of the stage, shooting at full wide. I think this would give a really interesting perspective, breaking up the monotony of the flat-looking images you get from right up the back of the theatre. The wider angle and perspective would allow for everone to be in the shot, but have a few dancers 'featured' in a way by being closer to the camera.

I've covered armature productions for over 10 years and this is the way I cover live stage performances.
Two Sony CX550 one either side of the stage, the wide angle gives full cover and the small size is unobtrusive, hardly anyone realises that they are there. I then have two JVC HM700 at the back, one locked off on full stage and I 'drive' the other one for cropping to the number of performers on stage. This works a treat as I can get all of the performance in shot at any time. All of the schools and dance companies I work with want all performers in for most of the time as to sell to the maximum number of parents they must be able to see everyone, not just the 'stars'. On the first ones that I did when I started I tried to be very creative, with lots of close ups and fast editing, but everyone came back to say that that missed too much of the production view. I now keep it simple. I keep the 'creative' work for the promos that a few of the schools have commissioned over the years.

I've just completed one that I shot this morning and I'm out to another one this evening. This work has really boosted my income for the quieter months of November and December, and to be honest I'd rather these than weddings at this time of the year as they're all in heated auditoriums rather than draughty churches.

Some really good info coming down. I have three yearly events for a school. Basically I charge them a flat rate and they sell the individual DVDs. Something I've been doing for almost 10 years now for them. They only want to pay for 1 camera and have been happy with my style and what I produce. That being said, I always shoot with an unmanned back-up camera on a stage full wide-shot. I record that directly to an external DVD burner and give them the copies right after the event is over. Basically I call it the choreographer copy of the event. My first year for them I did 3 recitals in a row. Back then I just had a Canon GL-1 and no back up. With no external recorder I was trying to conserve tape by stopping and starting the recording. They had long enough breaks between dances. Near the very end, I double punched the recording button and my eye said your recording. Of course it was the cutest littlest kids ever that I missed. Boy that about crushed me. Since that day I always have a back-up even if was a low quality. Something is better than nothing.

Yeah, the backup cam is a no-brainer, at least for me too.

My DSLR down front is a wide angle, and then with the proper video camera from the rear I would get a closeup of four kids faces at a time, hold the shot for 5 or 10 secs, then move to the next group of four, and go down the line to get them all. In editing I cut to the wide angle during pans and then I have at least one clear shot of the faces of all the performers, and still have a shot of the entire stage at all times.

The idea of recording to a DVD burner is brilliant, but then I couldn't edit, which would bum me out.

What I have done is record to tape on the back-up recorder and then send a A/V out to the DVD recorder. That way I have something that I can edit on the camera and quick DVD for them. It just depends on your cameras.

I see. Doubly brilliant!

Hi Jeff

I run opposite to you!! I have one camera at the back set to fill the stage with a wide shot and also I get a feed from the desk which is also at the back....this essentially gives me the whole rectital/concert from start to end.
I then have my second cam (with me on it) usually at left front of the stage to shoot all the close ups which takes the monotomy from the wide track... I usually have an assistant on the back camera who simply watches it more than anything else!!

I'll probably have some more comments after the 20th!! These guys are also having an awards ceremony for both dance groups (seniors and juniors) so I would suspect that I could zoom up the back camera a bit to a medium shot as the group will probably only be two people for individual awards ..that's the raer cam operator's job!!

I like your thinking George...weddings involve lot's of rushing around to the bride's house, groom's house, church, photo venues and reception which is time and effort whereas the events you do need just one setup!!! I'm hoping to get a few more gigs like this if they enjoy the footage!!

Chris

Jeff,
In my current setup I do already run a wide camera on full stage from the rear - it'd be crazy not to! However what I'm considering is adding an extra unmanned camera and shooting them from either side down the front. This would get everybody in the shot still, but would be a far more interesting shot than a front on. Also give you a great way to show a little more of those kids who a regularly shoved to the side (ie the weaker dancers).

George,
Do you have side camera's right down the front? Are they on tripods or something else like a Magic Clamp? Do you encounter any problems with that particular angle (like people getting lost behind curtains or seeing people waiting sidestage too much? I really want to try this out and seee how much better it looks than one wide camera from the rear. I just need to get an extra camera!

Hi John.
There is no one particular way that I set up, the set-up depends on the location and the type of production. For instance this week I've shot school concerts, dance shows and a formal presentation. One was performed on the floor in a small room, for that I set the cameras high on heavy duty lighting stands with a pan/tilt head to get the right angle. I then set these as high as possible looking down across the performance area. The lighting stands have a smaller footprint than a tripod so are less intrusive so less noticeable. Another was in a school gym where the cameras were at head hight clamped to bars either side of the performance as this gave less of a security camera look. The dance shows were on a traditional stage, for that I set them on low tripods at stage height angled up. This is not a very flattering shot for drama or presentation but for dance the feet and leg movement is important and they always love those shots. I set the cameras so that the tabs are at the edge of the frame so don't usually loose anyone behind the curtains and because they are at stage floor height they don't block anyone's view or distract from the performance.

What I'm thinking for my next one is dividing the stage with two wide angles (down front) to overlap, set and forget. Then run main camera from the rear to capture entire stage and center, and for zooming on occasion for solos and small groups. Wide angle from the rear like you do Chris would be great, but I'd like a closer shot to get better shot of the faces.

I'm sorry for soiling this lovely discussion...
but I thought copyright issues were at stake when videotaping the music in the dance recitals, in concerts, and with or without music in otherwise dramatic performances?
I got concerned videotaping for distribution the Christmas and Spring concerts by our school's choir, band and orhestra, and also got cold feet on a rather lengthy musical children's play that was put on one time. Then there was a Christmas Carol performance that I started to rethink. Have my concerns been well founded or no? I haven't heard mention here (like I have in similar threads) of the copyright concern for dance recitals like in the OP.

Here in the UK we can buy a Limited Manufacture Licence, aim specifically at videographers who record and distribute amateur and semi-pro productions. The terms allow for various performance durations and numbers of copies.
For anyone who is interested here is a link:
Limited Manufacture Licence (http://www.prsformusic.com/creators/memberresources/MCPSroyalties/mcpsroyaltysources/musicaudioproducts/LM/Pages/LM.aspx)

Thanks for the reminder about copyright issues.

Here in the UK we can buy a Limited Manufacture Licence, aim specifically at videographers who record and distribute amateur and semi-pro productions. The terms allow for various performance durations and numbers of copies.
For anyone who is interested here is a link:
Limited Manufacture Licence (http://www.prsformusic.com/creators/memberresources/MCPSroyalties/mcpsroyaltysources/musicaudioproducts/LM/Pages/LM.aspx)

sigh... again, why the HECK doesn't the US have provisions like this? ARGH!

Multicam concerts gives it that extra oomph on production value. I hope to be able to do that at my next concert gig. Most important is to show the dance in full and also the performer's expressions if you can.

I've done quite a few jobs because I do a lot of education work for Performing arts and music - and very often the video of the dance show or musical is the evidence for their qualification - often the 'final major project' - and it needs to show very specific things. It must be good enough quality to allow identification, yet be detailed enough to allow various grades to be applied against the people in it. This means no single person closeups, because although great for that one person, what about the others, who may well demonstrate the Distinction criteria at the moment the camera is elsewhere.

Very often the solution is the wide angle camera - which stays as wide as the group - no more, and the the iso feed from this one is provided along side the edited more arty version. Non-education savvy video people wouldn't have a clue about the evidence requirement - and even if told that's what it's for, it means little.

I've personally withheld students getting qualifications when the evidence has been weak. It means a lot of extra work for the schools and colleges to repair the evidence to cope with a duff video - and I have seen dozens. The worst are often the best looking, with dissolves and nice tight close ups. They look great, but simply fail miserably for evidence purposes. Sometimes the schools simply assume any video will be great and don't explain. The best paying but horrible ones to do are where a school requests captions and ID - it's so easy to mess this one up!

Yes, I agree on the wide angle camera that is not too wide and far back, it' makes for great shots with distinct faces, and still includes everyone and everything.