After more that 40 days, it seems that someone at Sony had finally seen fit to correct the false advertizing at the Sony Store, regarding the features on the VG20. See this page at Sony Store:

Interchangeable Lens HD Handycam Camcorder and Lens | SLT-A77VQ | Sony USA (http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921666376733)

However, they still have it wrong way down on the specification page here, where they are still reporting the availability of scene setting styles:


Interchangeable Lens HD Handycam Camcorder and Lens | SLT-A77VQ | Sony USA (http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921666376733#specifications)

Still incorrectly listed on B&H as well:
Sony NEX-VG20 Interchangeable Lens HD Handycam NEXVG20 B&H Photo

So... Sony didn't actually fix the camera, they just fixed their website. Sort of. Golly!

That seems to mean Sony will not be releasing firmware. :)

That's a nice way of saying Steve. Really too bad - some nice stuff is starting to be produced with the 5n (like Phil Bloom's short doc on Tony Vizzari), showing what might have been possible with the VG20 is not intentionally crippled.

Like I've said before - I would have bought the VG20, E-mount lenses, extra batteries, and likely a 5n as well if the camera wasn't crippled. Certainly won't until there is a firmware "fix," which likely means never.

Just so strange.

Booths & Bodies: The life and work of Anthony Vizzari
Booths & Bodies: The life and work of Anthony Vizzari on Vimeo

But, does the lack of Scene modes make a "crippled" camcorder? I can't buy that. The VG10's lack of 24p was far more serious.

The lack of adjustments MAY be serious. But, I never bothered much about them with the VG10.

I am still reserving judgment on that. It isn't the end of the world with this camera. I am thinking I can shoot about 95% of what I shot with the Canon 5D, but that in high contrast situations, there will be a challenge.

But, would the missing functions alter this?

With the VG10 I had to bias exposure down to prevent blown highlights. You can still do so with the VG20.

What I really missed are the standard Sony black expand/crush and adjustable knee.

Well, the ability to limit/control sharpening is, by itself, and important omission. On some cameras, it would be an absolute deal breaker.

Unfortunately, CNET is also listing the camera as having the now missing features:
Sony NEX-VG20 Interchangeable Lens HD Handycam Camcorder Body Only Specs - Digital Camcorders - CNET Reviews (http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-camcorders/sony-nex-vg20-interchangeable/4507-6500_7-35015433.html?tag=mncol;subnav)

Hey guys, been following this issue since Chris brought it up both here and on Vimeo. I live in Manhattan and on my way home from work I stopped into the Sony flagship store and expo at their USA headquarters on Madison Avenue.

I was spending some time comparing the VG20 and VG10 (which perhaps by design are on opposite sides of the room). A service rep started talking with me and I asked him about the missing feature set in the VG20, he said he was unaware of any and went to get someone more knowledgeable. The "expert" came by and told me there were no missing features. I asked him to show me how to custom set WB. He was only able to show me the three presets, I asked him to show me the creative styles, he was not able to find any. He then after looking a little foolish switched gears and started talking about how the hardware upgrade far out shadows the reduced feature set, then walked away.

I then went over to the VG10, another rep approached me and I asked him the same questions, he knew exactly what I was talking about and he seemed a bit frustrated too, but had no answers for me. He suggested that SONY could do a firmware update.

It is pretty sad that most of the sales reps in the store have no clue that this issue even exists, and are trying to sell a $2k camera on false info. I talked to 3 reps and two of them insisted there was no lack of feature sets, and the third kinda just shrugged it off and said that the more megapixels was worth it.

I said, too bad I would have bought a VG20 and a 5N today from you, then walked out.

I hope someone from Sony is reading this. Any showroom or store displaying the VG10 next to the VG20 is going to make both cameras (and Sony) look bad. At this point, correcting the VG20's advertising is the least of their problems.

I believe that is why they were smart enough to separate the two cameras. They are across the room from each other. I had to walk back and forth several times to compare the two.

It is clear as day to anyone who takes more than 15 seconds in each system's menu that the VG20 is missing features.

"He suggested that SONY could do a firmware update. "

Don't believe that for a second. The VG10 owners have been screaming for a 24p firmware upgrade since that camera first came out. The only "upgrade" was the ability to use Sony's new Alpha to NEX adapter. That's it.

If you buy the VG20 - and at this point, without those features, it's hard to find a compelling reason to - buy it with the full understanding that you are buying a purposefully disabled camera.

Given Sony's continued inaction on addressing the false advertising, it's bad treatment of anyone pointing out that false advertising (their vimeo channel censored + removed several valid posts commenting on the problem, while at the same time slandering users at DVinfo), it's poor treatment of VG10 buyers, and the continued strong selling of the FS100, I wouldn't expect any firmware fix.

"I talked to 3 reps and two of them insisted there was no lack of feature sets, and the third kinda just shrugged it off and said that the more megapixels was worth it."

It's like Sony actually believes that if they deny it long enough, the problem will go away. Clearly the reason why there's no reviews of the camera out (other than from users and a camera shop in Canada) is that Sony knows there'll be some bad press over this and doesn't want to hurt early sales by speeding the process up by giving out sample cameras. Videomaker claims to have gotten the camera, and is working up a review, but they're hardly an in-depth reviewer.

"I said, too bad I would have bought a VG20 and a 5N today from you, then walked out."

That's been my point as well - with those advertised features, I would have bought the VG20, batteries, NEX lenses, adapters, and prolly a 5n as well. With the missing features, it would likely have been THE ultra low budget/student movie camera. Now, I can only warn other indie film makers to look very closely before they buy, and be sure they know the return policy of wherever they buy it from.

I am seriously considering an NEX-7, but as a customer I am giving it second thoughts because I really feel let down by SONY. It is a shame too because I am very loyal once I find a brand that I connect with. The NEX line could have been that for me.

Well, let's see, Sony (along with many other companies) rode out the Earthquake/Tsunami/Nuclear disaster earlier this year... and then the Thai floods, which disrupted the supply of NEX7/A77 sensors among other things...

I'd say a mistake or a few might happen when they are struggling with that many serious issues... but that's just me.

Yeah, they probably should correct the firmware if possible for the VG20, and/or get their marketing channels "fixed" (with so many marketing channels, that takes TIME), but it's not like some vast conspiracy to rip off the end user - doody happens. This is FAR from the first time there have been errors in released specs, in fact I'd say it's pretty COMMON with Sony!

I've learned to triple check from multiple sources if there's a specific "feature" I'm concerned with before I buy - and not just Sony products... heck, I bought a kitchen organizer that said "fits all standard bottles", and not one I had FIT... return, unhappy customer... later discovered lots of reports on the web... THAT one is beyond me, but another example of a simple product that didn't meet expectations...

We now know what features ARE there, and them which ain't, and are getting a little more visibility on what the camera can deliver, THAT is what you need to make your buying decisions on - if it meets your needs at a price you think is fair, buy it... IMO the VG20 (as was the VG10) is overpriced when comparing to other Sony products, and so just doesn't tick the right boxes, long before I got to "feature sets"... but it's still a nice camera that seems to produce good images.

This whining over "mistakes" and implications somehow Sony is being deliberately dishonest is becoming tedious, to be genteel about it... anyone here ever make a mistake, raise your hand? Anyone with hands down can proceed to criticize without further disruption...


And BTW, Sony will sell PLENTY of NEX7's, whether YOU or I choose to buy one or not... the first available ones at auction on eBay brought around TWICE retail sticker... OVER $2K!!! I don't think anyone at Sony is losing any sleep over any OPINIONS expressed on this thread...

"He suggested that SONY could do a firmware update. "

"I said, too bad I would have bought a VG20 and a 5N today from you, then walked out."

.

why not a NEX 7 with a VG20? larger chip and viewfinder might be worth the hundreds of dollars.

charlie

Thats why I actually stopped in, I assumed they would have a 7 on display, seeing as that they are the world flagship store. But they had none, so I just said the 5N to drive to the point that they missed out on an immediate $3K sale.

Well, let's see, Sony (along with many other companies) rode out the Earthquake/Tsunami/Nuclear disaster earlier this year... and then the Thai floods, which disrupted the supply of NEX7/A77 sensors among other things...

I'd say a mistake or a few might happen when they are struggling with that many serious issues... but that's just me.

Yeah, they probably should correct the firmware if possible for the VG20, and/or get their marketing channels "fixed" (with so many marketing channels, that takes TIME), but it's not like some vast conspiracy to rip off the end user - doody happens. This is FAR from the first time there have been errors in released specs, in fact I'd say it's pretty COMMON with Sony!

I've learned to triple check from multiple sources if there's a specific "feature" I'm concerned with before I buy - and not just Sony products... heck, I bought a kitchen organizer that said "fits all standard bottles", and not one I had FIT... return, unhappy customer... later discovered lots of reports on the web... THAT one is beyond me, but another example of a simple product that didn't meet expectations...

We now know what features ARE there, and them which ain't, and are getting a little more visibility on what the camera can deliver, THAT is what you need to make your buying decisions on - if it meets your needs at a price you think is fair, buy it... IMO the VG20 (as was the VG10) is overpriced when comparing to other Sony products, and so just doesn't tick the right boxes, long before I got to "feature sets"... but it's still a nice camera that seems to produce good images.

This whining over "mistakes" and implications somehow Sony is being deliberately dishonest is becoming tedious, to be genteel about it... anyone here ever make a mistake, raise your hand? Anyone with hands down can proceed to criticize without further disruption...


And BTW, Sony will sell PLENTY of NEX7's, whether YOU or I choose to buy one or not... the first available ones at auction on eBay brought around TWICE retail sticker... OVER $2K!!! I don't think anyone at Sony is losing any sleep over any OPINIONS expressed on this thread...

Making a "mistake" is not really the point. You don't just mistakenly strip a basic feature set out of a next generation product. And if you do, and it comes to your attention, you make sure you communicate effectively to your consumers that a mistake was made (who you should value if you are a competent company). What is irking me, and others, is the sense that SONY either does not have their act together or is being deceptive, quite frankly the motivation behind the missing feature set and false marketing / lack of understanding from the sales force and lack of basic product familiarity from sony employees, is irrelevant.

At worst they are being deceptive, at best they are incompetent, however, both those scenarios mean the company does not care about keeping their customers happy. It is a lack of respect.

"This whining over "mistakes" and implications somehow Sony is being deliberately dishonest is becoming tedious, to be genteel about it... anyone here ever make a mistake, raise your hand? Anyone with hands down can proceed to criticize without further disruption..."

I wouldn't characterize it as a mistake at this point - as of this posting, several large dealers - including B&H, perhaps North America's largest high end electronics store - still has the misinformation listed, despite being on the market for over two months, and despite being advertised for nearly a year.

Right now, Sony's own site proclaims this:

"Six Creative Style settings

Control how the camera processes your images with six finishing styles: Standard, Vivid, Portrait, Landscape, Sunset and B&W. You can even fine-tune contrast, saturation, and sharpness to your personal taste. "

Those statements are in fact absolutely false.

At a certain point, mistakes - if it is one (an assumption I don't share) - become something more. Sony has censored negative (although quite true) comments about the camera whenever possible - clearly a proactive step - yet the misinformation remains on every site selling the camera. There has been no official acknowledgment of the gutting of features... or why the features are on the 5n and not the VG20 - a camera with the same sensor costing 3X as much - despite many users claiming that they've talked directly to Sony regarding the issue. Quite frankly, their "mistake" may in fact be criminal, esp in California and NY, both of whom have fairly strict laws regarding false or misleading advertising.

Keep in mind one very important fact - no major North American or UK reviewer has gotten the VG20 yet. That means one thing is absolutely certain - if not for places like this, potential buyers wouldn't have a clue that a $1,600 camera, advertised as having many pro functions - is in fact, a camera virtually stripped of them. Without awesome guys like Chris Barcellos reporting, we wouldn't even know the features were missing at all.

That's why I'll keep sounding off on it - not as whining, but rather as a warning to would-be buyers who wouldn't find out about it otherwise. One quick other point - no one is slamming a current owner or would be buyer of the camera - heck, I still might get one down the road as a B-cam - rather, virtually everything I've read at DVinfo has been to educate potential buyers as to the reality of the product, versus the claims.

B&H link that still has the mis-information:
Sony NEX-VG20 Interchangeable Lens HD Handycam NEXVG20 B&H Photo (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=818266&Q=&is=REG&A=details)

Sony's website w/ mis-information:
http://www.live.sonyus.webcollage.net/server/bhphotovideo/sonyus-product-content/httpb?ws-action=http://www.live.sonyus.webcollage.net/_wc/pc/features/NEXVG20.html?tab%3dfeatures-77e36b9b%26wcpc%3dNEXVG20%26tab-caption%3dDetailed%252bFeatures%26tab-code%3dfeatures%26tab-var%3d77e36b9b%26channel-product-id%3d818266%26showtabs%3dtrue%26format%3dpopup%26is-in-showcase%3dfalse~&ws-containerurl=http://content.webcollage.net/bhphotovideo/product-content-page?sku%3d818266%26wcpid%3dsonyus-NEXVG20&channel-product-id=&wcpc=NEXVG20&type=&enable-reporting=true&showtabs=&MarkupType=document&PresentationFormat=html

I just get the impression that sony does not have its act together. The guys at their flagship store were very ill informed. In fact, more then one kept referring to the nex-7 as the 7n. I don't get the impression that the sales force is intentionally being deceptive, I just get the impression that they are not passionate about their products or being more informed than the consumer.

That is where some of the frustration comes from as well. I am willing to bet that everyone here has more faith in one of us figuring out what is going on than someone at sony actually providing answers. I think that sony USA has very little interaction with the mother ship, and they are just as much in the dark as us.

I work for a major US broadcasting company and I will try to contact one of our purchasing managers to see if they have any contacts at SONY who actually have a clue about their products.

Well, let's shake ya, dunk ya, irradiate ya, and dunk ya again just in case... and see how well your act holds together...

BUT, that said, Sony has never exactly had it's act together on "features", or on informed employees... you get more accurate info here on DVi 9-11 times out of 10... Sony could hire half a dozen regulars here and increase their educated product "experts" base significantly...



I know that the "still" capabilities of the VG series kept it on my radar, but the latest NEX series are the first to put the E mount on the "might just buy" list. I see the E mount as a "developing situation", on only generation 2, as opposed to a product line with DECADES of background like the Alpha series, or the "Handycam". There WILL be "bugs", which we all know are also referred to as "features"... until they are ironed out.

Particularly when it comes to user interfaces, Sony has been "upsetting the fruit cart" and fiddling with the screens, sometimes with pretty "bad" results... the initial release of the NEX3/5 was HEAVILY criticized, and after a while they released an update, which was farily well accepted.

Presuming that the feature "hooks" are there, and I don't know why they wouldn't be (or that they ARE), it should be possible to make the features accessible from a firmware update, and in that sense, keeping the issue "up front" is probably a good way to get such an update... calling the company out as evil directly or indirectly is probably NOT...

I don't think Sony does things intentionally to goof up their products, but I'm guessing somewhere between management, engineering, and marketing there are some "interesting" disconnects... when features like the "reversing" LCD panel turning on the VF vanish, LCD sizes decrease in the "newer" models, etc, etc, you have to wonder what someone was thinking (or more accurately WASN'T thinking...)

Sony is a big company, cameras are just one small "arm" of it, and I'm guessing that sometimes the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing, quite literally... not some sinister plot, more of a "Gilligan's Island" plot gone awry...

So you try out the product, if it does what you want you buy, if not, wait till net year...

And since the NEX7 is BARELY becomming available (evidently our Great White Northern brothers bribed someone at Sony to get the first shipment in North America), it's no surprise they are scarce or non-existent in the retail channel. ALL the 24Mpixel based cameras are very tough to come by, just as the entire P&S line was almost impossible to find earlier this year after the first round of disasters... you can't beat Mother Nature when she paints a big ol' red circle on yer patootie... you just try to do the best you can!

"BUT, that said, Sony has never exactly had it's act together on "features", or on informed employees... you get more accurate info here on DVi 9-11 times out of 10... Sony could hire half a dozen regulars here and increase their educated product "experts" base significantly... "

Preach on Brother!

All of this does make one appreciate the job Panasonic does, or the way that both Panny and Canon seem willing to let pre-pro models into the hands of guys like Phil Bloom and Barry Green - and how both seem willing to at least listen to what those guys have to say...

The worst thing is I really wanted to like the VG20.

"And BTW, Sony will sell PLENTY of NEX7's, whether YOU or I choose to buy one or not... the first available ones at auction on eBay brought around TWICE retail sticker... OVER $2K!!! I don't think anyone at Sony is losing any sleep over any OPINIONS expressed on this thread..."

Of course you are correct, BUT IMO Sony has not been profitable for many years because "something" is broken. (Yes this has been a bad year, but Sony has had issues for year. I suspect massive cuts and the resulting chaos is the reason. Think GM -- huge and losing money at an alarming rate.

Sir Howard will be on CNBC at 6AM EST.

Steve's right on the money - Sony's been bleeding money for nearly a decade now.

"I don't think anyone at Sony is losing any sleep over any OPINIONS expressed on this thread..."

Which is likely a large reason why the company is such dire straights.

Sir Howard is on at 8AM EST.

Don't shoot the folks in the USA. From personal experience I know they can get wrong information from Japan.

I ran an office in Japan and the engineers are VERY good, but, have no real say. The rest of the office depends on constant upper management. They do each task as told.

When the top levels of a company are having endless meetings about cutting costs and demanding increased sales -- DETAILS get no attention. So the underlings just do the best they can.

PS: When I was there, the $/Yen was 160. Now it's under 80. VERY hard to make money a profit when the dollars and Euro that come are worth half what they were when Sony was flying high.

On the other hand, Sony has never had to really listen.