Hi all,

In all my years of filming weddings, I've just come across a new one that has me perplexed and I'm looking for some advice.

I filmed a wedding in September and received a phone call today from the bride’s brother indicating that she and her husband are getting divorced. Their wedding video is just about finished and was going to be delivered shortly. The bride’s brother made the call in place of the bride because neither the bride nor groom want anything to do with each other or any of their wedding related stuff (i.e. pictures or video, etc.) and are probably ashamed or embarrassed or just too hurt to speak with me directly. The bride’s brother indicated that they are no longer interested in receiving the video as it would be too hurtful for them or their family to watch. He acknowledged and understood that we spent the entire day with them filming their wedding as well as another day of shooting their love story and yet another day of putting together a photo montage for their reception...and also understands that we have spent the past several months editing their video and were just about to wrap things up. However, he suggested that the family would be better served with a partial refund instead of the video.

How the heck would you handle a situation like this?

We don't have a partial refund policy because of divorce or for any other reason for that matter. As already mentioned we spent the entire day (morning thru night) with them and captured everything. We spent a separate half day shooting their "love story", and one more day scanning photos and putting together their photo montage. Their final edit is about 98% complete and then the bombshell gets dropped that things aren't going to work out between them and both they and their family have no interest in the video at this point and would rather receive some sort of "fair" partial refund for the work we have already done.

Has this ever happened to you and if so, how did you handle it? Common sense tells me that we did all of the work thus far (except author the video and deliver) and it's their soon to be divorce that has caused this issue. I personally don't believe that any sort of refund is in order at this point but just wanted to get other opinions before I call her brother back.

The couple (as was their family), was extremely fun and outgoing and I would have never seen this coming from a mile away which makes it all the harder to tell them "sorry, but there will be no refund". I suppose business is business. Your thoughts???

I don't do weddings...but if it was me in your shoes.... I'd charge the full amount.

It's not your fault what happened - but it is your business you need to protect/your family that needs feeding - and you've obviously worked hard and diligently I'm sure to deliver a professional product (that they would otherwise have been please with in normal circumstances).

Just take off whatever it would have cost (time and materials) to produce the final discs/mail them out etc. (obviously) and then move on.

Now, if you had had a watertight contract in place then all this would be crystal clear....

In the corporate world (my world) companies sometimes get bought out/change direction/senior managers/ideas about what they want film-wise in a very, very short time frame (days). That's how I learnt "the hard way" several years ago about having very well written contracts in place before filming starts.

It's a very unhappy situation, not just for them but for you too. After all, there are unlikely to be any glowing recommendations or web showreel material coming out of this one, which already means you're "down" on where you might have been.

The wedding videographers on here might be able to see an angle that escapes me right now.... but you said (wrote) it yourself - business is business.

Hope this helps a bit.

I would offer sincere condolences for the failure of their marriage but not a refund. Partial or otherwise.

Offer to deliver the video as promised wrapped in something they don't have to open if its too painful.

Hi Andy,

Thanks for the reply. I do have a pretty solid service agreement in place...unfortunately, probably not watertight as I don't have a divorce refund policy or something along those lines. Looks like I'll be having my attorney add something to this effect in the near future. The bride in this case is actually an attorney so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Thanks again for your response.

I'm not in your shoes, but I would absolutely not give them a refund. Yes it is hurtful, but in the end they signed a contract. They won't be getting refunds from the florist, DJ, reception venue, baker, caterer...and so on. And if you had finished the edit/copies a week sooner, the phone call would have been too late anyway.

My thought is to explain to them that you did everything you were contracted for...I would even give them the video, or ask who might be a good recipient to send it to in case in the future there is a change of heart, or anything, but otherwise, no refund IMO.

Sticky situation though...YIKES! Good Luck, let us know what you end up doing!

You did work on the wedding day and all the time and effort spent in post production. You deserved to get paid in full. They aren't returning all the gifts back to their friends and relative.

I would finish the job and send off your dvd to one of them, get a receipt for delivery that way If they ever wanted to bring you to court you can prove the work that was paid for was done.

Refund shouldn't even be a consideration, period. No court would give a customer a refund because they got a divorce. The very idea is ridiculous, and the fact that the bride is an attorney will make no difference. She or they may threaten and bluster, but it will be only that, threats and bluster. They have no recourse. They "could" try and sue, and in theory you could end up in court, but you can recover your attorneys fees most likely since they will lose, as I would think the judge would award you your cost for your defense.

Scott, that's excellent advice.

If you already got paid in full, finish up the work and send them over. Product done!

Right Taky, it's all over but the mailing of the video. The divorce is the client's problem, not Michael's. Hopefully they won't attempt to make it his problem too.

I had a doctor pay a large deposit last year, and the wedding was called off, and he threatened me pretty bad when I wouldn't give him a refund. I told him to do what he needed to do, but I was sorry for his trouble.

Two weeks ago he called me back and said they were back on, and getting married in February and asked if I could film them in an exclusive hotel while they danced alone to a large band where there would be no guests, just them. Sounded cool, so I'm doing it for "free". But I had been paid $1K already and did no work for it, so I don't mind. It could make for a great web sample. I'm looking forward to it.

One of my brides who is getting married in March next year, called me to tell me her fiance had just walked out on her. Now she was civil..she said she realised that the booking deposit was non-refundable and wasn't looking for any refund at all. She obviously is not getting married in March any more!!!

Jeff, I really wonder how long your doctor's marriage will last if he has already cancelled it once ... I think you could quite easily find yourself not at the hotel in February as he has called it off again!!! If he does still stick to your no-refund policy!!

Chris

This happened to me probably about 20-22 years ago. I had just finished the good old VHS tapes and came to find out the were in process of getting divorced. While I sympathized with them I also told them they had signed the paperwork and I had completed my end of the bargain. He said something to the effect that I could stuff the tapes he wasn't paying. I said something to the effct of fine, I'm being forced to take further action. I called my lawyer at the time, he fired off a letter to both of them and within a week I had full payment and they got their tapes.
I also immediately changed my paperwork to indicate payment in full by the day of the event which I changed later to pay in full before the event just like almost every othr wedding vendor in my area. Problem solved. I actually had another one a few years later, similar situation, and those VHS tapes sat on my self for a good number of years. I finally got rid of them maybe 5 years ago. I'm a pack rat and I never wanted to be accused of not fulfilling my service agreement but my lawyer said hey what the hell if they haven't done anything by now they won't. The never have.
No refund, fulfill your obligation and what they do with the DVDs is up to them.

Forget a refund. What an insult to even suggest it!!!!

I would ask for an extra $500 FROM the couple to offset the anger & frustration of having spent so much time on something which is never going to be viewed, shared or cherished by anyone.

Are they returning all the wedding gifts I wonder?

Real quick. We always require the final balance to be paid 4 weeks before the wedding. We are pretty lenient with this and things have always worked out. Like one of the previous posters said, I would tell them that the job is 98% complete and list out what those things are. If there is nothing left to do other than burn/package the discs, tell them that the cost of that is $20 and that would be all that is refundable, everything else has been done. Lastly, I would also tell them that you need to deliver the product to someone and have them sign some form that states completion. Tell them they can sign the paper and toss the DVD's, you just need something that covers you in case they ever decide to do something in the future.
Good luck and I hope it all works out.

Taky's right - you supplied a wedding service just as the caterers, flower arrangers, minister, DJ and limo driver did. They all got paid and so too should you.

tom.

Good point Tom. I'd like to see them try and get a refund from the limo company or the baker.

Michael should ask his client who else is refunding money. The client's response would answer their own question.

Michael: "Is the cake lady giving you your money back? " . Client: "No".

Michael: "Is the church refunding your money?". Client: "No".

Michael: "Neither can I."

I agree with others that you provided the service, so you should be paid in full. And until a person who has actually signed the contract with you contacts you to tell you things have changed, I would continue to finish and deliver the product as though the brother never called you.

Perhaps suggest to the brides brother that the bride herself contacts you by email to continue the discussion. That way she can contact you in a non-confrontational way in her own time, and you'll get written evidence of the conversation should you ever need it for a defence case.

Hopefully, the issue will not go any further, becuase as you said, neither the bride nor groom want anything to do with any wedding related stuff, and I'm sure that the divorce proceedings will give them their fill of civil court drama. The fact they got their brother to call in the first place might be a good sign that, attorney or not, the bride is not planning any action - at least not any time soon - which means you have some time to finish the project, deliver it, and make a thorough record of the events.

Of course none of this advice comes from a legal proffessional, it is merely what I would do in this situation.

I was in a similar situiation, in fact I posted it here to get advice advice. 2 weeks after the wedding they are getting a divorce. The fight was who gets the wedding album, the groom wanted it coz he wants to burn it, the Bride for some reson wanted it as well. The wedding was paid for btw. In the end, thanks to advice given here, I gave it to the Groom and let him signed a letter stating that my obligation has been fulfilled.

In your case, I would definitely not give them a refund. Work has been done and you have fulfilled your part of the obligation.

My 2 cents.

Wouldn't even consider a refund. You earnt it. Period. Sounds like they didn't think anything through, including the marriage, so why should you pay for their failures? Finish it up, send it, show us the highlights, add it to your showreel, revel in the money. :)

I don't think I've ever seen a thread where opinions were so unanimous on a subject.

Hope we get a followup!

okay, so I'm going to (sorta) go against what everyone else has said.

I agree that it's not your problem to refund any money, nor should you in most cases, but what sticks in my head is that you really enjoyed working with them. So should either of them get married again in the future (or any of their fun family members) hopefully they'll call you again, but they may not if you dont offer some kind of goodwill leeway.

I suppose that would be something you'd be able to gauge yourself better than anyone here, if your reluctance seems like it could ruin the relationship you had (and might still keep) then offer some kind of (small) refund as a condolence...just enough to cover the cost of exporting and burning and packaging etc.

That's just my thought, and I don't really know if couples would be interested in using the same videographer because it might remind them of the last wedding, so maybe Im just totally off point here.

Just thought it was worth mentioning.

David, take the advice offered from your fellow videographers.

Communicate only with those people whose name appears on the contract.

Your idea of a refund and their idea of a refund may be be two different things. Why kick that door open? Now you've opened up a point to debate. Maybe you think $100 is fair but they think $1000 is fair. Now what? You've entered into a discussion of a refund with all those sticky implication. The more you talk the more you loose.

Don't ask who else is giving refunds. How do you know if they are telling the truth? Actually, you shouldn't care if the butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker all offered refunds. You have no way to verify the truthfullness of that statement.

Next time around the bride won't wear the same dress, the groom won't offer the same engagement ring and you won't be the video guy.

I understand this is a painful situation but it is their pain. Don't become a partner.

I say, deliver the final product ASAP to all contracted parties.

Then take the family out to dinner use the money you might have refunded to remind yourself not only are you a good videographer but a good business owner too!

Jay, no one is giving refunds, that's the point. Wedding vendors don't give refunds for reasons of divorce. If the client says her cake baker give a refund she would by lying. If she says the church is giving a refund, the client would be lying. You never ask a question to which you do not know the answer in a situation like this.

It's all besides the point anyway, the client is not mature enough to handle the situation themselves anyway. It's over, and they brother is only trying to see what he can salvage. Their point of view is likely "It never hurts to try". No reasonable person could expect a refund after the work is performed.

Hello Jeff,

When I said don't ask who else is giving refunds I was refering to other vendors who supplied that particular wedding party, not our own video community.

It sounded to me like the clients brother asked for a partial refund to "better serve the family" and Mr. Bray was wrestling with that decision, partially based on the thought of possible future business from either couple or family members. I based my response that premise.

A consideration could be an offer of discount for future contracted business. Then there is no monetary loss now and if on the remote possibilty there is the opportunity of future business they would be more likely to call.

I believe discussions with anyone other than the client will only lead to trouble. Even a statement as simple as "let me think about it" opens the door of discussion to a subject that should be avoided.

If you've been knocked around the wedding business for long enough, you come to understand that bending over backwards for the glimmer of hope for a future booking is usually a waste of time. Hoping to salvage a "relationship" or referral for future business by giving away money is not my idea of a wise use of funds. It would be better to give money to a deserving charity than to unhappy clients.

"If I'm nice I might get a job in the future" is what newbies in the business do. I know, I've done it. We learn that there is SO much business out there you do not have to over-extend yourself for difficult clients. You do the best you can for a fair price and you're pretty much done.

In the end it's better to be fair, rather than to be "nice". And in this case it is not fair to anyone to refund money. I guarantee you the OP will not be giving a refund. To do so would be a sucker move, and Michael may be a nice guy, but he's not stupid.

I have always been trusting and only asked for a down payment and the balance when complete. After reading this thread I will be making a New Years Resolution.

I'm sorry that I will probably upset most of you (and I apologize in advance), but in a situation like this I would try to work with the couple. I'd give them a break and not be judgmental about them -- divorce is horrible. I'd definitely try to not lose money when it's all said and done, but I'd try to ease the stress of the situation for them (and ultimately myself).

I've been in and out of the wedding video business for 15 years or so -- I'm definitely not a newbie. I genuinely enjoy helping people.

Of course, I'm fairly safeguarded against these kinds of things happening to me. First of all, I get all my money before the wedding. Secondly, I deliver the finished video within a few weeks -- chances are, they'll still be together at that point.

And if this were a perfectly happy couple who just didn't feel like fulfilling their end of the obligation, I'd be a little tougher about things.

UPDATE:

Hi all,

First, I want to thank everyone for your replies, comments, suggestions, and opinions. I agree with Jeff Harper that it's refreshing to see the overwhelming majority of replies in complete agreement.

Sorry I wasn't able to post sooner regarding the resolution, but here it is:

I called the BOB (brother of bride) and ended up speaking with the MOB. Needless to say, it wasn't an easy conversation...she, of course, was very distraught about the entire situation and in tears. I apologized for her family's troubles and tried to empathize with her as best anyone can. I explained to her that we are a service provider. Whether we're doing corporate work or weddings...anytime we're on-location or doing a film shoot, we are providing a service and it wasn't going to be feasible to provide a partial refund as the work or service in this case, was already performed. I further explained (delicately) that my service agreement is a legally binding contract that requires me to fulfill my end of the agreement (i.e. film the event and deliver the tangible product). I suggested that I still deliver the discs and that they are free to do with them as they please, such as keep them boxed up for a number of years until the feelings of hurt or anger dissipate with time. I have a feeling at some point in time someone in the family will unbox them and watch it.

Anyway, it was pretty straight forward. The service was performed and there was going to be no refund due to no fault of my own. As stated in my OP, a refund never really crossed my mind, but what made this situation slightly different from the limo driver, baker, floral and other vendors is that their services and/or tangible products had already been delivered, whereas my services had been completed but the tangible portion had not been delivered. Had this happened just a bit later, this would have been a non-issue for me. Now, for a slightly different topic…we have always received payment in full a minimum of two weeks before the wedding day so again, a non-issue for us but for those of you who don't collect the balance until delivery, let this be a potential lesson on how important is to receive full payment BEFORE the wedding day.

It sucks to put in all of the work we did only to find out that it might never be watched...not to mention, out of respect for the family, we will not be using any of the footage for our demo reels or web samples. Too bad really...as it was at one of the nicer venues in the Grand Rapids area. I guess at the end of the day, we still got paid very well for our efforts.

Thanks again to all of you for your replies. Hope everyone has a Happy New Year!

Michael

Isn't this just one of the drawbacks of working with long production timescales? If the contracts aren't watertight, I'm surprised the wedding industry doesn't have this happen more often. I don't do weddings, but do events of all kinds - mainly theatrical, and I only get paid on completion - very rarely is a deposit paid as most customers are business - so they get a quote from me, they agree and provide a written order, I shoot the production, then send an invoice with the DVD. 30 days later, if all goes well, I get paid. No way would business customers pay up front. On bigger projects, I'll arrange a stage payment - perhaps at the completion of shooting - but that really just means a split in to work carried out, not planned do do in the future. Business rarely trust people to do the work if they've been paid. Yet the wedding industry is swapped around. They commission you, a complete stranger, and pay you a big advance for a product of unknown quality at a point a fair way in the future. That's really good business - I wish it applied to my sector - where it's easy to have 5 or 6 thousand pounds outstanding - oh for the wedding video cash flow situation.

It also here in the UK means that you are in the position of having to pay 20% of the invoice to the government in VAT BEFORE you get the money from the client! Nice one!

The wedding video industry is a whole different animal than any other kind of video production (even other events). It's literally John Q. Public (not a business or organization) hiring professionals. Anyone walking off the street can commission a videographer -- which is why most of us require full payment ahead of time. The quality of the final product is usually known quite well, as the client has likely viewed examples of said professional's previous work -- the reason they hired them in the first place.

The client, in my experience, is always more than willing to pay up front for everything. I've had many insist upon it.

But, yeah, I'm surprised that more of the videographers who don't require full payment before the wedding don't get ripped off.

Payment in advance is the norm for all services in the wedding industry. Photographers, reception venues, dressmakers, caterers or videographers they all expect to be paid up front either the full amount or a very large percentage. It may seem cynical but I suspect that this is because a proportion of couples are likely to blow all their money on the wedding so by the time they come back from honeymoon they are hard up & likely to drag their feet over paying bills.

I don't think it's a "payment in advance". Service was already rendered.=)

I watched a video on Ron Dawson's blog recently called "F#@% You, Pay Me"
Watching that, and reading this really helps to remember that we are businesses, and people need to understand that.

No refunds. Everyone else who provided a service that day got paid and you should too. Finish the DVD and shelve it and let them know it's there waiting if either decide they want it. Leave it at that. Again, NO REFUNDS!