So I was wanting to not only bump up the audio of the bride/groom for the vows, but I also want to increase the quality of it. Currently I have a Olympus ME-15 and a Olympus VN-6200PC.

My question is basically, does a 100 dollar lav sound better than that 18.00 dollar one? Plugged into that recorder? Or would I need to upgrade both? Sound coming from my NTG2 shotgun at the lectern during speeches blows my grooms sound out of the water currently.

Considering bumping up to a H1 and a RØDE MiCon Lav, though 250 is a lot to spend on a lav! for that price maybe i should be looking at those countryman ones -

id be expecting to hear a significant increase in quality though to drop 300 bucks on the grooms mic setup lol

I'm a bit curious here too as I gear up to do weddings. I still use the original lav that came with my Sony wireless.

I've also been wondering about using a hypercardioid as near as I can get it (floor maybe). James, do you get decent levels and at what range?

First of all you need to get real. $250 is NOT a lot to spend for a lav. In fact, it is kind of low to middle-middle average in pricing for a lav intended for professional use. Even the $100 figure you mention is unrealistically low - about the only mic I know of in that ballpark is the Remote Audio lav. Second, your recorder also is due for an upgrade. Micro recorders such as the Oly are intended for business people to use for voice memos or students to use for class notes and they're just not capable of professional quality production audio recording. Sure they record and playback sound but that's about it. Compressed audio like the WMA format this recorder uses is not suitable for production recording needing subsequent editing and syncing to video. You don't need to go to Hollywood Studio top-shelf quality (and budget) gear but you do need to set your sights higher than bargain basement consumer toys. If you're shooting the occasional wedding of a friend at no charge, going extreme budget is okay, but if you're actually charging people money for your work you need to up your game and bring a professional kit to the party.

id be expecting to hear a significant increase in quality though to drop 300 bucks on the grooms mic setup
But isn't a significant increase in quality exactly what you're asking about???

At the very least, I'd recommend the Tascam DR-03 for the pocket recorder. It is capable of recording WAV files in several different bit depths and sampling frequencies. Turn off the AGC, turn on the low-cut, set the gain and other parameters appropriately, and you'll have a chance to get a useable file.

I'm not a big lav user myself, so I'll defer to others here to recommend a minimally appropriate mic. (And believe me, you will see a wide range of opinions.)

well yeah, i want it to be better. so im running into an issue, that the B3 may need powered as the H1 i dont believe puts out enough voltage. so that just complicated matters significantly

What led you to think about the H1?

And where are you in PA?

Eh I just felt good about the H1 since I have an h4n. Pittsburgh, you?

I'm prob going to go with the DR-08 because of the smaller form factor and also the new rode pin lav and see how they fair.

The DR-08 seems to be quite similar to the DR-03. The difference is that the DR-08 has moving/pivoting mics (which would be easier to snap off, IMHO) while the DR-03 has fixed mics.

The Pin Mic spec sheet says it will work on 2 volts, so it should be happy with the Tascam. It has ~ 6dB more output than that cheapie stereo Olympus mic, so that will essentially make the preamp hiss 6dB lower.

I've never seen a pin mic, but if I were shooting one-time live events (like weddings) I would be scared about the proprietary through-cloth connection system. If something goes wrong, and the mic becomes disconnected, you won't have a chance to re-do the wedding to get your audio. I admit I'm cautious, but I would stick with a conventional lav. IMHO a slightly visible mic is better than risking loss of audio.

PS: I'm in State College.

Yeah, I was worried about how effective it is at mounting through the thicker fabrics, I figure I'll give it a test on some jackets at home and if I don't feel confident just return it for the standard lav. I watched several videos on it, and when working properly it seems great.

well yeah, i want it to be better. so im running into an issue, that the B3 may need powered as the H1 i dont believe puts out enough voltage. so that just complicated matters significantlyThe H1 most likely puts out enough power for just about any lav, provided the mic is wired properly, usually with an 1/8" plug for low budget portable recorders. Most lavs' inherently only need 2-5 volts of 'bias current' (popularly known as Plug-in Pwr). to operate efficiently. If a lav does require Phantom Power, it's normally for a XLR transformer / adapter.

I am using the Giant Squid lav mics. Great quality.

Looked into the pinmic, but doesn't seem like its designed for a lapel. I don't think its thick enough to cover the width of two layers of fabric? As for a recorder with good preamps, this is a good list:
Avisoft Bioacoustics - Microphone Input Noise Comparision (http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm)

I'm trying to decide between the Roland R-05 and the SONY PCM-M10. From what I can tell the Roland is the popular choice these days for event work. For film and sound production teams, the Sony is popular because it works better with a mixer. I'd rather use sd cards rather than the microsd cards, so I will probably go with the Roland.

I'm also trying to decide if its worth upgrading the H4n. I've read that the line-in isn't true something (can't remember the name). Basically when you connect a 1/4" connection, it is noisy. Xlr is better, but the dj might not have xlr out.

"I'm also trying to decide if its worth upgrading the H4n."
-- 'Upgrading to' a H4n?

"I've read that the line-in isn't true something"
-- Yeah, the H4n's 'line' input is 'compromised', so one may input Hi Z 'instrument' level.. guitars and such.

"Basically when you connect a 1/4" connection, it is noisy. XLR is better"
-- A 1/4" is noisy? Not anymore than an XLR, all other factors being equal. An XLR is more 'secure', due to it's locking mechanism. Nothing wrong with a TRS 1/4" though, very common on console type mixers, DJ mixers too probably. One should have adapters/cables for both.. RCAs too.

Looked into the pinmic, but doesn't seem like its designed for a lapel. I don't think its thick enough to cover the width of two layers of fabric? As for a recorder with good preamps, this is a good list:
Avisoft Bioacoustics - Microphone Input Noise Comparision (http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm)

I'm trying to decide between the Roland R-05 and the SONY PCM-M10. From what I can tell the Roland is the popular choice these days for event work. For film and sound production teams, the Sony is popular because it works better with a mixer. I'd rather use sd cards rather than the microsd cards, so I will probably go with the Roland.

I'm also trying to decide if its worth upgrading the H4n. I've read that the line-in isn't true something (can't remember the name). Basically when you connect a 1/4" connection, it is noisy. Xlr is better, but the dj might not have xlr out.


So that was a very helpful list. I actually decided to go with the Olympus LS-7

Newegg.com - OLYMPUS LS-7 Linear PCM TRESMIC Digital Voice Recorder - Black (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16873100075)

based on the noise levels and such. Heck its even smaller than the tascam.

I am using the Giant Squid lav mics. Great quality.

I too use this lav, but I get horrible quality. I've shot several weddings, seminars, etc. and the audio never turns out well. It feeds into a Zoom H1.

How do you make it sound good?

Here's an example of the bad audio: https://vimeo.com/34723591 (beginning with pastor is best audio from these lavs, but the middle - groom vows, and ending - bride vows are absolutely horrible). All three ppl were recorded with Giant Squid lavs into the Zoom H1.

Well, when I finally got to the few seconds of relevant audio, I have to agree, the vows especially are pretty bad.

It sounds to me as if you're picking up primarily the PA system, it does not at all sound like a direct close-mic pickup of the people speaking. It's hard to believe that those tracks were recorded with a lav that's properly located on the person. If there was that much PA sound reaching the body mic, then I'd think there would be a lot of feedback from the PA mic.

Did you do a run-through before the ceremony? Did you monitor the H1 with headphones to see how it sounded then?

Actually, I was using it with an Olympus voice recorder Olympus DM-520 / DM-420 with the following settings recommended by someone.

Mic Sense: High
Rec Mode: PCM
Rec Level: Auto
Zoom Mic: Wide
Low Cut Filter: Off

Check your Zoom settings. It could be the Automatic Gain that causes problem.

Recently, I am also using RODE PinMic. It's expensive, sound quality is great,. Best thing is no visual cord.

Actually, I was using it with an Olympus voice recorder Olympus DM-520 / DM-420 with the following settings recommended by someone.

Mic Sense: High
Rec Mode: PCM
Rec Level: Auto
Zoom Mic: Wide
Low Cut Filter: Off

I'm a bit puzzled by the settings... I found two different DM520 manuals online, with different sets of settings. The 520/420 manual mentions the Zoom Mic function, but doesn't really explain what it does.

However, I found this on the Olympus America support site
( http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/cpg_support_faqs.asp?id=1473#25 )

"The Zoom Mic menu option employs the DiMAGIC Virtual Microphone™ (DVM) audio pickup system that allows more dynamic recording by focusing on sound from selectable directions. It enables expansive stereo recording to high directivity recording using the DM-520's built-in microphones.

"The options available in Zoom Mic are: Off, Wide, Narrow and Zoom.

"The Zoom option has the narrowest angle of reception and records only in monaural.

"Because DVM technology is tailored to the recorder's microphones, Zoom Mic is incomaptible with Olympus accessory microphones and third-party microphones."

So if you were using external mics with the 520, it would appear that the Zoom Mic settings were irrelevant.

--

Meanwhile, I still think Zhong's clip is picking up entirely, or at least mostly, sound from the PA system... as if his recording mic is much closer to the PA speakers than it is to the bride & groom.

Actually, I was using it with an Olympus voice recorder Olympus DM-520 / DM-420 with the following settings recommended by someone.

Mic Sense: High
Rec Mode: PCM
Rec Level: Auto
Zoom Mic: Wide
Low Cut Filter: Off

Check your Zoom settings. It could be the Automatic Gain that causes problem.

Recently, I am also using RODE PinMic. It's expensive, sound quality is great,. Best thing is no visual cord.

I don't use automatic gain/auto levels. I set the levels manually and leave it on "hold" so no settings can be accidentally changed. =/

It's weird because there were two Giant Squid lavs in use with two separate Zoom H1 recorders. One zoom/lav per guy. The lavs heads were placed inches away from the guys' mouths. The bride had no mic, but she was standing close to the groom and the officiant. The PA speakers were also nearby (several feet), but definitely couldn't have been closer than lav capsule to the guys' mouths (few inches).

And what about...

Did you do a run-through before the ceremony? Did you monitor the H1 with headphones to see how it sounded then?

How are you going to do a run through when the real situation doesn't exist until it happens?

Levels were checked beforehand, asking the guys to speak approximately as loudly as they would during the actual ceremony. Then the recorded trial was played back to ensure everything sounded okay and that the device was actually able to record (aka not defective).

Problem is, during the actual ceremony so many things are different that are impossible to check beforehand. During the actual ceremony, the PA system plays at the same time the speakers are saying their words. This amplified audio then reflects off the stone walls in the back. A bunch of music instruments are plugged in as well, etc.

Things like the PA system are obviously not playing/amplifying the guys' speech during the trial run a few minutes before the actual ceremony starts. This means any echoes or sound reflections from stone walls are also not present because a normal human voice isn't that powerful.

This wasn't the only wedding where the Giant Squid lavs with the Zoom H1s sounded horrible. In fact, every single wedding it has been this way from beach weddings to garden weddings to indoor church weddings. Which is why I was asking how people get good audio with the Giant Squids? =/

Things like the PA system are obviously not playing/amplifying the guys' speech during the trial run
I would not consider that a complete run-through. You want a dress rehearsal, not just a walk-through. Ideally, you'd ask beforehand, "Will you be using PA during the ceremony?" If the answer is yes, then you want the PA guy there to turn on the PA system for the rehearsal. Otherwise, you cannot realistically check levels with the PA turned off, knowing it would be on (and apparently blasting) the day of the actual ceremony.

Of course if the bride doesn't wear her own mic, and she's talking into that PA mic as if she's a rock star, then her amplified voice will pick up to some extent on the other mics. Even so, you'd think the PA speakers would be relatively distant from the "performers" and the level would not be too loud where they're standing... that's a function of proper PA setup, but it's something that you would catch during a proper run-through.

I don't question whether your other similar recordings "sounded horrible." Perhaps they did. But it may not be a function of what mics you used. It may be a function of the overall setup and lack of adequate preparation (e.g. not making a test recording with the PA system on). Perhaps you could post a short clip of a garden wedding (presumably without the overpowering PA system) and let us evaluate that for comparison.

Meanwhile, just to clarify what we hear in the "beachfront" clip. You had at least two mics, one on the groom and one on the minister, right? When you mixed the clip, were both mics up all the time, or did you mute the mic of the person who wasn't speaking? And were there any other mics mixed in, during the bad parts of that clip you posted?

Thanks Greg. We did attend a dress rehearsal the previous night, but nothing was set up. Only ppl walking through the parts of the ceremony. No PA system was present.

For the beachfront wedding:
Yes, two lavs, two recorders, two guys. One lav/recorder per guy. Bride had no recording mic.
I only used either the officiant mic or the groom mic, never mixed. So yes, one guy was muted if other guy was talking (which was done in editing), but both mics recorded the entirety of the ceremony. I also had two Zoom H4Ns and some camera shotgun mics as backup, but those were not mixed in at all to what you're hearing in the video.

Here's the garden wedding: Studio Dreamscape Channy + Gaston: Corona Heritage Park Wedding Highlights (http://studiodreamscape.com/blog/channy-gaston-wedding-highlights) (recorded same way as the beach wedding...so the officiant's speech in beginning and middle of the video is from the Giant Squid Lav w/ H1 recorder)

And another beach wedding, same audio setup: https://vimeo.com/27469405

Thank you!

We did attend a dress rehearsal the previous night, but nothing was set up. ... No PA system was present.
That wasn't really a dress rehearsal. A true dress rehearsal would have included PA, if PA was to be used at the actual event.

--

Regarding the "garden wedding" video: It's unfortunate that I can hear only the mixed track, because the music covers up what's going on, except for a very few seconds.

It certainly does not sound as if those mics were anywhere near the persons speaking. I don't think the mic is deficient in high frequency pickup, because I do hear plenty of HF in the track, especially all the sibilants. However, the sibilants sound very echo-ey, as if the mic (again) is picking up the voice through a PA system, and not through any proximity to the person speaking.

Also, I hear a good deal of thumping and mechanical noise. It sounds to me as if if that was picked up by the PA mic, amplified through the PA speakers, and then that sound was finally picked up by the recording mic. I think I also hear some PA mic "pops" which had to come out of the PA speakers and then be picked up by the recording mic.

Moreover, the officiant's voice at the beginning of the video, and voice midway through the video, are recorded on two different mic/recorder combinations. The midway clip has more HF material than the opening clip. I've cut the two voice clips together in the attached file... you can easily hear the difference. Additionally, the clip at the beginning has a huge spike of constant HF noise up around 15,650 Hz, but the midway voice clip does not. I think that's video sync bleeding into your recording, which leads me to believe that the voice track at the beginning was recorded on the camera, not on a separate recorder as you stated. And of course if it was recorded on the camera, it was not picked up by a lav mic on the officiant, because the cameras were moving around.

Finally, the voice contains essentially no energy below 100 Hz. Yet there is significant background noise down below that frequency. To me, that indicates that the mic was nowhere near the person speaking. All the voice was picked up from the PA speakers.

Are you sure you haven't gotten your tracks mixed up somehow?

Ya know, I don't see the recording mic in the brief camera shots of the officiant. I'd like to know where that mic was really located.

Recently, I am also using RODE PinMic. It's expensive, sound quality is great,. Best thing is no visual cord.

Hi Taky, have you had any instances of damaging the fine threads of wedding tux's with the PinMic?

I like the function of the PinMic but I sure would feel bad about leaving 3-pin marks on the grooms rented tux or the officials religious clothing.

Mark,
The biggest issue with the pinmic with event work would be if you dropped the the outer part and didn't have a replacement.

Greg,
I've done about 75 weddings with the giant squid/h1 combination without a bit of rehearsal. He is right though, a wedding rehearsal is not a full dress rehearsal. just nothing you can do about it most of the time. I have my H1 set, apply them in generally the same spot, and roll with it. Works great every time.
Bill

Zhong, my first thought in listening to the last one you posted was that sounds like the H1 mics without a lav. I wonder if you have a bad connector or plug in power is not turned on or something.
Bill