Noa - Your videos are really good. I currently use a VG20, FX1000 & Nex5n to do weddings. Your posts have intrigued me enough to try out one of the small Sony Handycams. I picked up a CX580V and was impresses with it on many aspects. It will cut very well with my other Sony cameras.

The problem I have (and I was not seeing in your sample videos) is ALOT of grain in low light conditions. so far just a few quick shots in auto mode. I assume this cam is close enough to the ones you are using so if you can give any hints or tips on settings you use it would be appreciated. how do you limit how much gain it uses? I also have neat video so I can clean up the noise pretty good but I would rather have clean video to start with.

The problem I have (and I was not seeing in your sample videos) is ALOT of grain in low light conditions.

Not sure about this but it could be that the 580 is about the same as the xr520 that I also have, I can say about the 520 that the lowlight at the highest gain values is the same but it produces a lot more visible grain when that's the case. This is where my 730 shines, I have seen tests here between a canon xa10 and a cx760 at 15db gain and the canon was even a bit brighter, when I asked the maker of the video why he didn't go any higher then 15db he said it was unusable at those gain levels.

Well, I can say that at 24db of gain on my cx730 I have less visible grain then 6db gain on my xh-a1, ofcourse there is grain but it's a very fine grain that in most cases you hardly notice. Until now I have not been using any plugins to remove grain. I can imagine if you do high end commercials or corporate you need a absolutely clean image but then you aren't working with a handycam.

I find gain values up to 24db usable when doing weddings without using something like neatvideo. Only thing you need to consider that at 24db gain only the shutter lowers to 1/25 but that's also usable as long as your subjects don't move too much. I only go that high if I really need to, in most other situations during a wedding I don't need to.

Well from what I can tell so far with the cx580 is it does not show what the gain level is. So maybe I need to try out the CX760 ( that's the unit here)

Can you easily set your gain with the CX730? Or is it buried in menus 9 layers deep? Can you limit the automatic gain and set value to not exceed?

on my 730 I can view all camera data only in playback modus, a silly limitation build in by Sony but I guess you can't have it all.

The most important functions you can assign to the front wheel but it's only one function at the time, I have "exposure" assigned to that wheel and leave it at that, there I control the exposure manually all the time.
You can also assign 3 other functions to touchscreen buttons, there I have whitebalance, Ois and focus assigned so I can change those values as well on the fly but only by using the touchscreen, takes some getting used to but works pretty well.

About autogain I know you can set low light on or off, in off mode it goes to 21db max, when on it goes to 24db and shutter 1/25
When lowlight is off you don't have to worry about high gains, the camera handles them just fine up to 21db, if you don't want it to exceed a certain value you have to controll it manually but during recording you can never see what value it's at, only when you playback.

Noa, in reference to a user you mentioned who said his XA10 is not usable above 15db, gain, that is strange of them to say that.

I have found it there is no visible grain at up to 18db with the XA10, it is remarkable. It is also VERY usable up to 21db.

Others on the XA10 forum will confirm this. With the next model down from the XA10, this is not true, even though the cameras seem identical in most every way. But for the XA10, graininess is a non issue for me.

Yes, I thought it would be like that, but not everyone has the same expectations, what you and I find no issue another one finds unacceptable. You will always have people that export frames and blow them up 400% to start to look for imperfections. For wedding clients those high gain values are not an issue either, nor is it that I hold such a small handicam in front of them. From a normal viewing distance to a tv you hardly notice the grain.

Yes, but for anyone to claim XA10 footage unusable at 15db is suspect to me, since I cannot see any grain at 18db, and neither have others in the XA10 forum. Most anyone using these cheap cameras cannot reasonably expect much more than can be delivered by them. If there expectations are for much higher than you get with an XA10 in low light, then they are using the wrong camera for sure. At least until something better for the money comes out, which could happen at anytime.

I vaguely remember the test you refer to, it was outdoors at night and it was shot by someone pretty knowledgeable, I think, but I also remember the test did not make sense to me as to how it was conducted.

Anyway, moving right along.....

Noa-
Couple of more questions for you. are you able to limit the gain with this camera to a set value (like say 21db) since you stated this is how far you can push it and still get acceptable IQ. I believe you stated that you could simply leave low lux off and it would not exceed that value. So the question is can you leave it in that mode (low Lux off) capped at 21 db and then set the control knob for shutter speed and bring it down to 30 (im in america so it would be 25 for you)

I think that this is the same thing that Low Lux basically does so I am not sure if doing this would just reintroduce some grain right back in? anyways, I am really looking at pulling the trigger to pair up with my VG20 and Nex5N so I am just really curious on how far you can push it in low light.

With low lux on the gain is limited to 21db and shutter stays at 1/50, if you enable lowlux the camera will leave the shutter at 1/50 untill you go past 21db gain to 24db gain and then sets the shutter to 1/25.

I have set the exposure to manual and assigned the controll of it to the small knob on front of the camera, in the viewfinder there is a ruler with a "-" and "+" (in manual mode) which gives an indication where the gain is at, there's a small vertical line inside that when it's at the far right you know you are at 24db, so even if you have low lux on, you have some visual control if you for any reason don't want to have max gain when you are controlling exposure manually.

If you have assigned exposure to the small knob you can set the exposure, hold the small button inside that knob and select focus and then you can control focus while the camera holds the exposure you choose just before, only if you assign shutter it will put exposure back in auto mode.

Here's a frame from the camera done outside at night with only candle light from wishbaloons, the camera was at 24db, sure you can see grain but like I have said before, 6db gain on my xh-a1 looks worse.

https://plus.google.com/photos/103263257318614858171/albums/5784598852774949441?authkey=CPPk6Jboq5uNJA

Here's some other frames of the cx730 paired with a ex3, it was taken from a wedding from last weekend, I was shooting on front and a friend of mine wanted to test his new ex3 and he was shooting in the back. I managed to get some comparable point of views.

It showed the ex3 resolved more detail and it has a wider dynamic range which I expect to be normal from a 1/2" chipper but after applying some sharpening in post on my cx730 and if necessary crush the blacks on the ex3 a bit I can safely use the ex3 images together with the cx730 without noticing that much. If you want to know which camera it is per picture I added that info on the right top side beside the image, the ex3's exposure was also set a bit brighter. The frames from the cx730 have some added sharpening applied.

https://plus.google.com/photos/103263257318614858171/albums/5784605607193187153?authkey=CLuDyKvt9oDkrwE

Thanks Noa

Well I sold one of my old PD150's and picked up a CX760V today. Impressed so far!

on my 730 I can view all camera data only in playback modus, a silly limitation build in by Sony but I guess you can't have it all.


Still have not figured out how to see the data in playback mode yet? is there a trick to seeing what my exposure db was for a shot?

on the lcd screen press "menu", "setup", "data Code" and then "Camera data".

If you then playback a clip you get gain, f-stop, whitebalance setting, shutter and ois setting.

I checked a few days ago on a clip shot during speeches and it was very dark, gain was at 24db but I noticed the shutter moving from 1/25 to 1/50 when waiters where passing in front of my camera so it seems the camera only goes to 1/25th shutter when it needs to meaning you could have 24db gain and 1/50 shutter. I only wish that info was there during recording...

Thanks Noa, That did the trick. Yes it would be really nice if you could see that while taking video. I will need to play with this more to understand how the camera thinks. Just looking at a couple of clips that I took in low light settings showed the camera was at 3.4 f stop and pushing the gain at 15-18 db? i wonder why the camera did not bring the f-stop down to 1.8 and lower the gain?

have you ever had any luck using the f-stop as your controlling factor as opposed to exposure (gain)
overall though I am pretty impressed with this little camera. It gives better results than my FX1000 in my opinion.

You need to assign the front wheel to exposure, if you assign it to iris that doesn't work, the camera will lock the iris at a fixed value (if you are in manual mode) but will still adjust gain and shutter automatically depending on the incoming light. Just try it by putting the iris in manual and then point from a dark to a bright area, you wil see the camera will still adjust the exposure automatically.

if you assign the front wheel to Exposure and then put it into manual, then when you set your exposure you can go from dark to light and the exposure doesn't change, untill you turn the wheel, in that case the camera will try to have the iris at a fixed f4.0 stop and gain 0, if you have to adjust the wheel/exposure for a bright light the shutter increases, if you have to adjust for a bright to a dark place then the shutter will drop to 1/50, then the iris drops to f1.8 and then it will start increasing the gain.

Not sure why you had f3.4 and a high iso, thats not the case when I set the wheel to exposure.

Edit: about the camera having better results then your fx1000, I have done some shoots with my cx730 where a fx1000 was used, I noticed that the cx730 had better low light performance meaning less noise and better color reproduction in very dark scenes but in bright light the fx1000 has better dynamic range, I can see more details in blacks for instance compared to my cx730. Also if you want the cx7xx to look good right exposure is key, a bit overexposed gives ugly hotspots on faces and oversaturated colors, underexposed for a bit is no problem and if you have exposure right it can look very good, I use the zebra's to help determining the right exposure. The fx1000 is a bit more forgiving in that area where with the cx you really need to pay attention and certainly not letting the camera decide.

So are you using 70 or 100 on the zebra? So I assume you just turn the exposure down until the hot spots disappear?

I have mine set at 100, in general I think the lcd screen allready gives quite accurate feedback about how the actual exposure will look like when editing, the zebra's are just a tool for funetuning. My sony xr520 doesn't have this and the screen can be a bit tricky to determine exposure, with that camera I often get a bit too over exposed images, it looks ok on the lcd but not when editing, in that respect I think they made good progress with the cx7xx series.

Thanks for all your input Noa. I will just have to keep using it every chance I get to build my trust in what it looks like in editing. It matches pretty good with my VG20 so I am pretty happy already.

Your welcome :) Also good to hear it matches your vg20, I was looking for one more camera with a bit more controll and if possible not too expensive and have been looking at so many camera's and don't know what to choose anymore, the VG20 was on my list as well and the new vg30 that will be out soon looks quite nice with that new lens.

Do you get camera data (like shutter, gain etc) while recording in the lcd screen with the VG20? I don't see so many buttons on that camera so i suppose it's also quite limited in controlling different functions.
I would like to use such a camera, beside it's kit lens, with a few of my samyang lenzes, do you know if that is possible to mount those type of lenzes? And if so, do you know what the cropfactor on that camera is? (my turn now to ask questions :D)

Crop factor is 1.6 and I think you can get almost any lens adapter for the e mount. The real big drawback for me on older lenses is no stabilization. They look fantastic on a tripod but can be a bit shakey if hand held. Getting the stabilized 50mm 1.8 is highly recommended.

Yes you can see real time display on those items while recording. The really cool thing is all the menu screens are almost identical to the cx760 so no real learning curve. What I do really like is I can for example set a function (like shutter speed) and then go and change another function (like gain) without the first setting going back to automatic.

I really love my VG20 and I know it sometimes gets a bad rap but I personally will use this camera until it dies one day. Can say enough about the elegant shots I can get with it. Whole reason for the CX760 for me was to lock it down on a tripod and just use those as cutaways from the vg20.

Thx Dan, cropfactor is the same then as my 550d and stabilisation issues are a problem with the dslr also as the Samyangs are not stabilised, I"ll be watching the vg30 to see how it performs once the first user videos appear. Think the kit lens will do just fine for those stabilised shots with autofocus and have an option to attach fast prime lenzes on a tripod when necessary. I hope they don't increase the price too much on the vg30.

Can I ask how the viewfinder is, is it usable for focus checks?

I"ll probably will hang onto my xh-a1 if I need it for certain shoots but 95% of what I do at this moment I can do with my cx730's and my dslr's (as a solo shooter), the last weddings I did I left the xh-a1 at home, I was a bit nervous at first but now the cx730 are starting to become a second right hand :) I always have one camera attached to my belt when I"m operating the dslr's and have it ready for recording in seconds, with weddings you often have to react quickly if something unannounced happens, if I don't want to miss such a moment and get it right the first time, I prefer my cx730 instead of my dslr.

On tip I can give when using the cx760 fixed and unmanned on a tripod, set a AE shift a bit lower as the camera tends to overexpose if you leave exposure in automatic mode. Also try to avoid dynamic stabilisation unless you need the extended zoom, active steadyshot is also very good and at least you keep the widest angle and should have the best image quality (dynamic zooms in on the image so you loose some on the wide and eventhough I have not tested it yet, there should be some quality loss. And most important set the OIS to off when on a tripod, the OIS goes haywire when you zoom in a bit and then pan. This function can be assigned to a button on the lcd screen so it's fast to change when needed.

Yep, Already playing with the AE shift. the Viewfinder on the VG20 is VERY usable. in fact 90% of all my recording is done through the VF. as an example I find the CX760 VF a bit frustrating and not super great but works okay for when I need it. always seems like I am trying to tweak the doppler adjustment as it is just a little too small for my old eyes maybe? My VG is a whole different story and I really using the VF

and a couple new flavors in the pot with the latest Sony announcements. VG30 is looking pretty sweet!

yeah, it looks pretty much the same as the vg20 except for the lens, I"m sure there are some improvements to the camera as well but I"ll see what it looks like when the first user video's appear. I have been looking at a lot of wedding demo's on vimeo that where shot on the vg20 and somehow it seems to be difficult to get a good image out of it. Especially how the camera seems to deal with highlights. Often I also see quite some whitebalancing issues (maybe because they have it at auto?) and overexposure. Sometimes there is some dslr footage used as well and then it becomes even more obvious as you can pick out the vg20 footage easily.

I did find only a few good looking videos meaning they can get it right but the camera needs an experienced operator to get the most out of it, that's at least the impression I get when browsing through all those videos.

This one looks pretty sweet as well, a vg30 on steroids? :) (full frame so no cropping!)
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-video-industry-news/510646-sony-vg900-first-image.html

Ok, shot a wedding short time ago with my two Sony cx730's, a xr520 and my two Canon 550d's. I made a trailer which I feel does show the potential of those small handicams, only the steadicam shots are from a blackbird with a 14mm f2.8 lens, all the rest are my sony camera's (only 2 short shots with very shallow dof are with the dslr as well)

It might not seem that way but it was quite dark at the venue, my dslr was wide open at f2.8 and 1600 iso all the time and some zoomed in handheld shots I did during the speeches to catch reactions with the Sony camera it was at 24db gain and 1/25 shutter which explains the motion blur you will see in a few shots. At other times the camera was close to or at 21db gain. Same for the church, not that much light available.

It's also the first trailer I have where you hardly see any very shallow dof that DSLR's can provide but I"m not sure if that would have added anything, I actually prefer the very wide dof to show the large church and venue.

the Sony's where at 50p (except for the xr520 which was positioned on the church balcony was at 50I and the dslr was at 25p.) The very first slider shots in church where slowed down to 50%.

What do you guys think? I"m pretty satisfied with the images, especially the colour in a darker environment and while at 21 to 24db of gain and the fact they match quite well with my dslr. (have to say the Sony shots have been colour corrected with a bit more saturation and the blacks where crushed a bit as well.) and I used only available light, so no cameralight was used.

This was a solo shoot, which brings up another advantage of those small handicams as running 2 to 3 camera's simultaniously is possible since your gear is easier to carry alone (5 camera's in one backpack - 3 handicams and 2 dslr's) and as focus is not so critical as with dslr's you have much more usuable footage on your unmanned camera's.

Private Video on Vimeo

password: noa

Wow Noa - you and the photog are in soooo close to get them putting the rings on! - Here in the UK we'd get promptly ejected from the church if we tried to get that close - I'm jealous!

That's pretty much standard position during the vows here, placing a camera left and right on a tripod, like one for a medium shot and one for close up would be a very big risc at ceremonies here, often the couple turns towards the priest and like in the above video the priest also comes up very close sometimes holding the mike or the page containing the vows for them to read from. This would render any camera's on the side useless showing you only the backsides of the couple.

The only safe position is always just behind the priest (never had a priest complain about that) and in this case I had to move in real close as the priest was almost sitting on the couples lap and he was holding the page in front of their hands which made it even worse :) I had the camera on my shoulder support with the beachtek and hoodloupe attached to the lcd screen like I showed in a video in this topic, that together with the great OIS gives very stable footage handheld, better then I could do handheld with my xh-a1.

Noa, I find the same as Peter, in any church here I'm sure I'd be ejected or at least reprimanded or even banned from future weddings by the vicar if I tried that sort of move in on the ceremony, even civils would not be too happy with that. That seems to be one of the thing that causes celebrants to set up rules and restrictions. Here it's strictly stay put. Another example how different societies as well as cultures have contrasting approaches and tolerances.

I spend much time in France and there churches have a more relaxed attitude to photo/video than here in UK.

To be honest, I would very much prefer to stand on a fixed position with the photog and myself not coming near the altar, like I see in many videos here where the couple is facing eachother standing up and stay in that position. In that way you could have 3 camera's on a locked position and capture it all without blocking any guests view or without being in the frame of the photog and vice versa. Here it is the priests that are causing all the trouble by often letting the couple facing the altar all the time or by holding the sheet which they have to read from in front of the rings and holding the microphone for them right in front of their faces. Sometimes that leaves me with a very small window to get the ring exchange. I could stand on the other side but then I would be blocking the families view. I wish they made it a lot stricter and just have the couple facing eachother so I don't have to struggle to get my shot.

You should see how intrusive photogs can get here as they walk around all the time, also behind the altar while the priest is talking, I have had a few occasions over the past years where the priest stopped talking and eyeballed the photog because he was to much present but beside that they allow a lot here.

I was filming a wedding a couple of weeks ago where the vicar called a halt & told the second photographer to stand in one place instead of prowling about up & down the aisles. He said that it was just too distracting & as it was a small church I could see his point.

This post almost has 10k views so there seems to be some interest in small camera's :)

What do you guys think?

No reactions so far, that usually means it's bad and people don't want to offend you :D

It was a user on this forum but I don't recall who it was that said he had to move to dslr's from his regular videocamera's as he started to loose clients that wanted that specific look which his regular camera's couldn't provide. My video I posted a bit up does contain steadicam dslr footage but none of the footage does have that distinct dslr look, especially because there is hardly any shallow dof. In fact I think my cx730 on the blackbird could provide a better look as I would be able to nicely slow down 1080p 50p footage and not have to worry about setting the focus manually or about the 12 min recording limit. The lens only would be a little less wide but the image would be sharper. I think that at the wedding I have this Saturday I"ll give my cx730 a go on the steadicam and see what that gives.

I only wonder wether that very shallow dof and typical dslr look would make my video look better, or more professional or get me more clients or even allow me to charge more money? It took me some time to get over that "uncle sam has the same camera" kind of feeling but as I feel very pleased with what comes out of it, how do you perceive the video, does it have that handicam "video" kind of look or do the image of small handicams and the large dof make it look more amateuristic?

A camera is a tool... use the one that does what you want it to do... small cameras have their place, DSLR (SLT) have their place. If the results "speak" for themselves, that's what matters.

And as always, it's the "nut" behind the lens that makes all the difference <wink>!

Hi Noa,

I'm one of the lurkers of this thread (loved it from the beggining) and I have to say the CX730 should work perfectly on the blackbird, stabilization may give you problems or even make it better so I would like to know how it went if you make a test of it.

I think the clients are looking for shallow DOF but won't see the difference through all the shoot and definitely I would go for the use of more cameras.

Some beauty shots pre, post, and during the ceremony and that would be set. You're right in a lot of points; you can carry more cameras, breathe in more of the beauty of the church and enjoy the people and their reactions in the venue. Beautiful video.

Hi Ivan! Yes, I think the OIS on the cx730 will do some unwanted corrections but when I have time I"ll do some test runs at the venue, I"ll have to add my beachtek and shouldermount to it as well to add on some extra weight as the cx730 alone is too light for the blackbird.

In the video above I had an hour prep time in church before the couple arrived which gave me some time to set all up right (3 handicams) and to gather some beauty shots but usually it's nothing like that with often practically no set up time, but even then I can still manage to set up 2 camera's, put a zoom h1 on the altar, a iriver on the lectern (both with lavaliers, I just clip it onto the church microphone) and the groom has already been supplied with a yamaha c24 with lav mike when they leave to church.

That only leaves me with setting up my tascam dr40 at a loudspreaker as backup which I do when the ceremony already has begun. That can be very stressful but just the fact that I can carry 5 camera's in one go into church in my backpack (my tripods are on a small carry on cart that can fit 4 tripods that I fasten with straps) is one less worry that it might get stolen in the car. My backpack also contains 2 dslr's and lenses but that I never use during church.

When you shoot solo in these kind of stressfull situations your unmanned camera's need to be light, have a deep dof, can autofocus right and that have good autowhitebalance (on a sunny/cloudy day when sun appears and disappears all the time the Sony gives accurate colors)

A "advantage" is also when your gear gets damaged, imaging having a 7000 euro camera (just take a xf300 as an example) drop onto the floor (at crowded events that's not impossible) instead of a 840 euro camera (what I paid for my Sony)
Buying a new camera always hurts but my bank would survive a 840 euro hit, not a 7000 euro hit. :)

And as always, it's the "nut" behind the lens that makes all the difference <wink>!

David Lynch shot Inland empire on some Sony pd150's and he definitely is a nut... :)

Just wanted to share my latest work with my 2 sony cx730 coupled with my 2 canon 550d's, there is not much movement in this thread anymore but maybe anyone interested in using small camera's might find it usefull.

I have been doing quite some events now with these camera's and eventhough they do have drawbacks, I still am very happy with what they can do, especially considering what I paid for them.

Is it all sunshine? No :) I noticed that the touch focus is quite unreliable on both my camera's so it's no bug, the touch focus on my cx520 is much faster and more accurate. Maybe it's because of the much wider lens or because of the improved stabilization, something has changed for sure and it's not for the better. I now assigned "manual" focus to a button on the lcd screen so if needed I can manually correct pressing buttons on the lcd screen, works quite well.

The lack of real controll can be frustrating, like I wanted to set the shutter at a fixed value because a lcd screen was flickering, that worked but I couldn't manually change the exposure at the same time, this meant the camera took over resulting in a underexposed image. Not sure if I should be complaining about this because it is a handycam , just the fact that there is a dedicated control wheel for different functions is already a luxury, but sometimes I need to rely on the auto features more then I want to.

Below film was filmed this Tuesday and is still a draft and there are some animation errors to be fixed, maybe a text to be changed or a song here and there but it's 95% ready, it's quite long, a short version will follow but it's easy to just skip through the longer interview parts.

The only dslr material in there is easily to recognize, it's either very shallow dof shots or steadicam (a blackbird) shots, all other ones done from a slider or tripod are from the cx730's. It's only during these business type of events I bring my homemade slider along, usually it stays at home at a wedding because then is too difficult to handle alone. At a business event I have much more time to get creative shots. I do love he fact that I can slow down my slider shots 50% and still get smooth motion.

The cx730 footage was 1080p 50p and the dslr 1080p 25p.

All sound you hear was recorded through a soundguys mixer with my tascam dr40 but the interviews starting at 06:52 where done with a shotgun mike connected to a beachtek (with a 3 meter xlr cable) that again was connected to the sony, these interviews where done handheld with my small shoulder mount and without use of extra light. It was quite dark, only candle light in the center but spotlights on the sides of the venue. The reason I didn't use the inbuild videolight from the Sony was because I noticed one interviewee had red dots in her eyes from the light, eventhough it was very dark the camera managed to do without light so I decided to leave the light off, I think during the handheld interviews the camera was between 18 to 21db of gain.

The shot at 02:57 and 03:37 was done handheld at 17x zoom! I had one camera on a tripod and the second one in my hands and supporting it on my legs (I was sitting down). The wide angle shot at 03:06 was also handheld. The 17x zoom is partly digital and there is a loss in resolution but after sharpening in post it holds up pretty good.

I love the color these camera's give me in lower light and even if it's not sony ex1 resolution the images turn out pretty sharp.

Private Video on Vimeo
password: noa

Beautiful camera movement and editing. Thanks for posting.

Noa, your work is outstanding. I was engrossed in your video and watched it entirely. Too many good things to comment on, I just like it. Well done!

It's not me, it's the camera that's all doing this :D I don't know if you noticed but the live interviews done handheld at the end the interviewees where a bit soft, there did't seem to be enough light for the camera to automatically focus right as the background is a bit sharper. I do have to try the face detect function, or whatever it's called, as I read that it uses that to focus better on faces which is perfect for interviews but have not tried it yet. At least it doesn't hunt focus once it locks on.

About cameramovements, my homemade slider sucks and I have to do a lot of trial and error before I get it right, I ordered separate parts and assembled it myself for about 70 dollar but I would be much better of with one that had real bearings but as I use it only a few times a year it's hard to justify the cost. But I do get a kick from controlled motion and am always looking for that perfect move. I think it does give your video a bit more professional look.

I am looking at the panasonic ac90 now as it is real cheap, has a very sharp image and offers enough manual control to finally have a reason to place my xh-a1 on sale. I like the small formfactor and would be a perfect addition when I film dance performances with the 2 cx730 at fixed angles and the ac90 for following the action. The sony's don't keep focus well if you zoom in, lock focus and zoom back out again, something I found out the hard way last time I filmed a play. So I need something more reliable for that part.

Noa, your work is outstanding. I was engrossed in your video and watched it entirely. Too many good things to comment on, I just like it. Well done!

I agree, very nice work!!

I am looking at the panasonic ac90 now as it is real cheap, has a very sharp image and offers enough manual control to finally have a reason to place my xh-a1 on sale.

Noa have you some experience yet of the AC-90? I am going to retire my Sony Z1/FX1 cameras for next season and have been looking at a couple of these - I've had the Sonys for so long and I love working with them but the lack of definition and poor low light compared with newer units has forced my hand.

Pete

Hi Peter

I was seriously looking at the Sony EA50 for 2013 but for over $4K it's pales in comparison has no ND's whatsoever (the 90 has auto ND's in the camera) and the Sony at more than double the price seems to have unimpressive low light performance with the stock lens They give the camera a huge APS sensor and then bottleneck the whole thing with a slow F3.5 (at wide) lens.

The AC-90 is awesome value for money and the NR with gain applied is unbelieveable!!! 24db gain and the image just has no noise at all...it's also pin sharp up to 24db but softens just a little at 30db.

Chris

That's good to know Chris - The Z1 is very noisy at 12db!!! Fortunately Neat video comes to the rescue for me!

My only concern is the price - my budget is about £3K per camera but I can get 2 AC-90 units for that price! surely too good to be true however if it outperforms the Z1 (which originally cost me £4K) then I'll probably go for it

Cheers

Dragging this thread back to consumer camcorders I saw a Panasonic TM900 yesterday for the first time & was seriously impressed with the image quality so much so that I have been looking at the current models the X900M (32GB on board memory), the X900 (no onboard memory) & the X800 (dumbed down X900 with mostly auto everything). They all seem to share some of the same core specifications as the AC-90 e.g. 29.8mm Wide Angle to 12x zoom, 5-Axis Hybrid OIS, 3MOS sensor. Could be handy as C&D cams or even as a better quality alternative to a GoPro (the X800 is around the same price).

Hi Nigel

My buddy Chip in the USA bought an X900 and said he was extremely disappointed with the image. He returned the camera after a week! I'm just wondering if the quality and end result is not anywhere near the normal TM900 ??? I have heard other reports on other forums also saying the X900 is not anywhere near the TM900 in IQ ...No idea why???

Chris

I have two of the TM900's and one of the TM700's (its predecessor). The image quality is excellent until the light gets very low (1st dance conditions). Whats more they are very intelligent in their use of autofocus and exposure compensation - using a function Panasonic call backlight compensation. They can be relied upon to work unattended, for example if the bride and groom are backlit by a large window and outside the sun is varying because of clouds they will cope fine with the changes. I have to resist the temptation to fiddle with the settings - not an easy thing to do if as a pro you are used to doing most stuff on manual.

I am not familiar with the X900 though, but I would be very surprised if the image quality were inferior. I would suspect user error.

All mine have internal drives (as well as SD card slots) but if I were buying again I'd get the versions that just have card slots. You can then use USB3 via a reader to download the card contents very quickly.

You can use Panasonic's free software to trim out unwanted footage with no impact on quality and no need to rerender.

These cams are also light enough to put in all sorts of unobstrusive places on brackets / window suckers etc. Biggest problem then is guests not seeing them and blocking shots.

But the wide end is nothing like the Gopro for field of view and can be somewhat restrictive. I have a cheap wide-angle convertor for emergency use.

Question re the new AC-90 - as it almost qualifies as a small handicam :- ) The spec looks very tempting but I think in f-stop and ISO terms; is it going to be a 5DIII killer in low light?

Pete

The spec looks very tempting but I think in f-stop and ISO terms; is it going to be a 5DIII killer in low light?

Absolutely not, the ac90 low light capabilities are "ok", but nothing more then that, A test I saw in another thread showed that at 30db gain the ac90 was comparable to 9db gain on a sony fx1000. This was not taking noise into account, just the exposure on the fx1000 was set to the ac90 at 30db to match and then the fx1000 was at 9db.

My cx730 at 21db gain can match the fx1000 when it is at 15db of gain but also up to 21db of gain on the fx1000, meaning 24db gain and 1/25 shutter on the cx730. then the fx1000 image has excessive grain while the cx730 still produces a usable image, not noise free, but way better then the fx1000.

I do think the ac90 is a very good "small" camera, especially for it's price but I do worry a bit about it's performance in harsh light conditions, it does have build in ND's but they seem not to be enough in bright sunlight. there was one video I found where you clearly saw the camera was having issues with very bright and shadow areas in one image. This I think is normal with very small sensor camera's but having the exposure spot on is, like with my cx730, essentials to get a good image. It's even better to have a bit underexposed then to over expose. If you overexpose colors look over saturated and you start to get this video look.

But the wide end is nothing like the Gopro for field of view and can be somewhat restrictive.

It's 29,5mm I thought which is more or less standard on more professional camera's with a fixed lens as well which is a good wideangle for most conditions, only the 26,5mm I have on the cx730 is really awesome :) Helps a lot in tight spaces.

It's 29,5mm I thought which is more or less standard on more professional camera's with a fixed lens as well which is a good wideangle for most conditions, only the 26,5mm I have on the cx730 is really awesome :) Helps a lot in tight spaces.The TM900 & TM700 have a lens that is 35mm at widest so the 29.5mm lens on the newer models is quite an improvement. The fish-eyed super-wide of the GoPro is too much for me so I generally use it on Narrow (whatever the 35mm equivalent is).