It's official....here are some of the fine points.

* Uncompressed 1080/60i 4:2:2 HD-SDI output at 1.485 Gbps

* Multi-format external HD recording to HDCAM, DVCPRO HD, etc.

* Genlock input and TimeCode input /output

* 20x HD L/SR OIS lens (5.4mm-108mm, f/1.6-f/3.5, 72mm fil.)

* 3 x 1.67mp CCDs (native 16:9 shape), 1440 x 1080 effective

* Digic DV II processor supporting 30fps & 24fps (25 fps in Europe)

See the rest of the specs on Canon's new camera at this link.


http://www.dvinfo.net/canonxlh1/watchdog.php


regards,

=gb=

For field use, what kind of converter would we need assuming that it needs to go out via HD SDI to a harddrive. Does anyone make a field friendly converter...Miranda? Any units that do both conversion and harddrive?

Very interesting stuff.

KW

I dunno about field converters, but with the need for a component to SDI converter gone, you can record to a computer with the base Blackmagic HD card... not too shabby an investment for studio work. (Of course there's other considerations if you're keeping uncompressed...)

Also, you can run right out to a DVCPRO HD or HDCAM(SR) deck with no problems now, right?

I suspect it will be pretty difficult to make use of the SDI output to hard drive to a portable solution. 1.4 Gbps is ~170 MBps, which is quite a bit higher than most hard disk solutions record. In the short term there will be very limited applications for this particular function.

It is a feature a lot of people were asking for though.

-Steve

And do you get the 24F option out SDI?

Couple the HD-SDI output with the Genlock input.. and you know.. you've jsut got yourself a HD studio camera!! ...then run that remote control SW you can get and you even get CCU (ok, prize for the first person to make a hardware CCU for the software!)

- Mikko

Quick somebody tell the boys at Rosendahl to make an HD-SDI option port on the Bonsai Drive http://bonsaidrive.com/bonsai.html

Quick somebody tell the boys at Rosendahl to make an HD-SDI option port on the Bonsai Drive http://bonsaidrive.com/bonsai.html

I think it already does as an option, maybe?

"supports SDI option
TC inserter with additional clip number display"

Interesting indeed.

Kevin

And do you get the 24F option out SDI?

Yes, all frame rates, HD and SD out of the SDI terminal BNC connector.

is that SDI output 8 bit, 10 bit or 12 bit?

I actually don't think the camera costs that much for what I will be doing assuming the 24f thing works great.

Up until now I was going to be getting a whole new setup in January. I was planning on getting a HD100 along with a Decklink HD card and Multibridge for VFX work.

$6000.00 for HD100
$3000.00 for Decklink and Multibridge.

This comes to the same $9000 price tag as the XH1. The downside would have been analog noise. Now for the same price I can just add the $500 Decklink HD card and have full digital quality from the CCD block hopefully in true 10bits. Clearly the other advantage is 1080p compared to 720p.

Thats odd SDI audio is missing from the SDI port on the camera. That will make it a little bit harder to run to a HDCAM or DVCPROHD deck.

is that SDI output 8 bit, 10 bit or 12 bit?

I'll have to ask about that... see the "need questions" thread... will put this on my list.

No audio from the XL H1 through SDI, but if you're doing double-system sound anyway, then it's not much of an issue. If you were going to take audio from the camera, then yes, this is a bit of an annoyance.

I think it already does as an option, maybe?

"supports SDI option
TC inserter with additional clip number display"



Isn't SDI for HD a different standard? vis http://www.frontierpost.co.uk/2005/wisdom/Glossary.pdf

I suspect the Bonsai drive will need to be adapted for HD. I hope I'm wrong.

They are taking no prisoners. They've already published the CCD block size and pixel count. Panasonic could learn a LOT from Canon on how to realease info about a new product!

Panasonic could learn a LOT from Canon on how to realease info about a new product!

Agreed.

Canon in September: Here's a product announcement, with a working model, full specifications, demo footage (coming tomorrowish?), and it will be available in November.

Panasonic in January: Here are some miscellaneous specs to prevent you from buying something else, and uh... it's coming... uh... fourth quarter...ish?

What's cute is that the price point for this new machine is similar to a fully loaded HVX. I honestly wonder how many people who set budget asside for an HVX machine would consider switching.

-Steve

What's cute is that the price point for this new machine is similar to a fully loaded HVX. I honestly wonder how many people who set budget asside for an HVX machine would consider switching.
-Steve

Count me on that list. We are already completely setup for HDV.

THE HVX200 does have the advantage to easy 4:2:2 recording for bluescreen shots. Of course most bluescreen work is done in a studio environment so the SDI from the XLH1 would actually be of higher quality since it is uncompressed. While the HVX200 should also be able to do uncompressed HD video it would only be able to do this via analog component outputs. The XLH1 keeps it all digital for a very clean 4:2:2 signal.

The HVX200 still has the advantage of less compression on the run however. No matter how good of a camera the XLH1 is it still uses a 1080i form of HDV with very high compression.

Yes, but how much less compression. Are 1.4 Gbps out the SDI port and 25 Mbps HDDV the only options? Or is DVCPRO HD at 100 Mbps also available (tape and or SDI)?

Is the HD SDI or the SD SDI output usable or worth using after the tape has been recorded and the signal has been compressed into the 25Mbps HDV ?

Will it retain the 4:2:2 out of HDV through SDI?

Is it exclusively to be used connected to an HDCAM SR deck or BETACAM deck while recording?

No! Once it has been recorded as DV it has been downsampled to 4:1:1 (SD and HD). Furthermore, the HD has been run through MPEG temporal compression. MPEG temporal compression results in a lovely HD picture until something moves. That's why my enthusiasm is dampened. If my only options are HDDV and 1.4 Gbit SDI which I can't practically capture I'm not so enthusiastic. I like to shoot in the woods - not in a studio.

No! Once it has been recorded as DV it has been downsampled to 4:1:1 (SD and HD). Furthermore, the HD has been run through MPEG temporal compression. MPEG temporal compression results in a lovely HD picture until something moves. That's why my enthusiasm is dampened. If my only options are HDDV and 1.4 Gbit SDI which I can't practically capture I'm not so enthusiastic. I like to shoot in the woods - not in a studio.

Just a clarification. SD is 4:1:1 and HDV is 4:2:0. But yes, once it's on tape, you've already thrown out most of the image. Having the SDI output allows capturing to anything (deck, or pc) that can do SDI. I wouldn't be surprised to see a mountable hard disk solution in the future that can accept HD-SDI. The drives can be made small enough now, that it could have a raid array perched on the rear bracket. Since Firestore has products forthcoming for the JVC and Panasonic cameras, it stands to reason that they may have a solution in the works for the Canon camera as well.

-gb-

I wouldn't be surprised to see a mountable hard disk solution in the future that can accept HD-SDI. The drives can be made small enough now, that it could have a raid array perched on the rear bracket. Since Firestore has products forthcoming for the JVC and Panasonic cameras, it stands to reason that they may have a solution in the works for the Canon camera as well.

-gb-

Do you mean to capture uncompressed HD!!! At 1.5Gb/s! That would take a serious RAID array, especially with 2.5" drives. That is about 35 times faster that the fastest current Firestore!

If the output was compressed to say a 50Mb/s codec first, that would work.

Do you mean to capture uncompressed HD!!! At 1.5Gb/s! That would take a serious RAID array, especially with 2.5" drives. That is about 35 times faster that the fastest current Firestore!

You're getting ahead of yourselves. Not even the Hollywood folks with F950s capture truly uncompressed HD from their Dual Link SDI connectors... They run them into a Sony HDCAM SR deck which merrily compresses the data by about 2:1 before storing it.

Compressing a real-time HD stream isn't as hard as you'd think - the CPUs and RAM are fast enough - you just have to pick a reasonable compromise in terms of a codec to go to... and there are some really promising candidates out there.

-Steve

You're getting ahead of yourselves. Not even the Hollywood folks with F950s capture truly uncompressed HD from their Dual Link SDI connectors... They run them into a Sony HDCAM SR deck which merrily compresses the data by about 2:1 before storing it.

Compressing a real-time HD stream isn't as hard as you'd think - the CPUs and RAM are fast enough - you just have to pick a reasonable compromise in terms of a codec to go to... and there are some really promising candidates out there.

-Steve

That is exactly the point I was making Steven - no one is going to be capturing uncompressed HD. Personally I would have built a higher bitrate (higher than HDV) encoder and drive controller into the camera.

Personally I would have built a higher bitrate (higher than HDV) encoder and drive controller into the camera

Well - that would significantly add to the cost, and the XL H1 would suffer the same crticism of the P2 option on the HVX200. It would also decrease battery life...

Basically you're asking for the equivalent hardware of a BlackMagic card, a high end CPU and RAM, and a dedicated hard drive... and that option is available to you - for the price of a couple P2 cards.

-Steve

Well - that would significantly add to the cost, and the XL H1 would suffer the same crticism of the P2 option on the HVX200. It would also decrease battery life...

-Steve

The effect on battery life would be less than recording to HDV as there are no moving parts required. I would think that the exsisting chip could easily cope with a higher bitrate interframe codec. It is not like P2, because it could output via firewire or USB2 straight to a standard hard drive - the controller would already be built into the camera. I agree that the controller would cost a few $$$, but not a huge amount. If an HVX can dump to a hard disk, it isn't hard to extend that to direct capture. It may require specially formatted drives. You could mount a 2.5" drive on the rear of the camera if you needed. Then as solid state prices drop, you start using that instead.


Basically you're asking for the equivalent hardware of a BlackMagic card, a high end CPU and RAM, and a dedicated hard drive... and that option is available to you - for the price of a couple P2 cards.

-Steve

No Blackmagic card - the signal is compressed straight from the DSP, like with HDV. The CPU is already there and the hard drive/solid state you buy separately.

Yes it is just like P2 - a non-linear storage method, but would be cheaper and is more "present" proof.

I forgot to mention that both SD and HD undergo spatial compression (DCT) before being written to tape. This is lossy.

I agree that something like DVCPRO HD @ 100 mbps would have made this camera the cat's meow though you'd only get 15 min on a casette (unless they allowed it to take the next size up -SWAP and $ problems there) and if they have to license this from Sony (?) that would be more $ still.

Well, well, well, so Canon actually did what I have been whining for!
An HDSDI output on this new camera. COOL!
The thing is I really wanted either 720P SDI (SMPTE 292) or 1080P@24 FPS.
That said, HDSDI output is really a huge step forward in bringing a
professional feature to a prosumer camera.. Now we can hook up to
all kinds of decks and interfaces. Things are getting VERY interesting!!!

I have lots of questions:

1) Will Canon will be able to offer 720P or 1080P@24 FPS in the near future? (Progressive minds will want to know if those HD flavors might be a firmware update in the next few months?)

2)Can this camera output standard def. SDI now?

3) Does anyone know if this camera uses 1/3" chips?

4) What's the chip set pixel count?

5) Can one use the old XL EOS adapter and Canon 35mm glass?

Well, well, well, so Canon actually did what I have been whining for!
An HDSDI output on this new camera. COOL!
The thing is I really wanted either 720P SDI (SMPTE 296) or 1080P@24 FPS.
That said, HDSDI output is really a huge step forward in bringing a
professional feature to a prosumer camera.. Now we can hook up to
all kinds of decks and interfaces. Things are getting VERY interesting!!!

I have lots of questions:

1) Will Canon will be able to offer 720P or 1080P@24 FPS in the near future? (Progressive minds will want to know if those HD flavors might be a firmware update in the next few months?)

2)Can this camera output standard def. SDI now?

3) Does anyone know if this camera uses 1/3" chips?

4) What's the chip set pixel count?

5) Can one use the old XL EOS adapter and Canon 35mm glass?

1) I think until it is proved otherwise, we should presume that 24f = 24p, so in that respect it already has it. That is what is being claimed, only tests will tell.

2) Yes

3) 3 x 1/3" CCDs

4) 1440x1080 effective

5) I believe so.

Jacques, I think that your question 2 to 5 are already answered on the XLH1 watchdog's page.

http://www.dvinfo.net/canonxlh1/xlh1skinny.php

The CCD block in the XL H1 utilizes three one-third inch 1.67 megapixel CCD image sensors which provide an effective target area of 1440 x 1080 pixels.

The earlier EF adapter for the Canon XL series is of course fully compatible with the XL H1, and most of the Canon EOS line of 35mm still photography lenses may be used for HD, the caveat being a 7.2x multiplication factor which renders most all EOS lenses to an extreme telephoto field of view.

Thanks for the link.

Do you mean to capture uncompressed HD!!! At 1.5Gb/s! That would take a serious RAID array, especially with 2.5" drives. That is about 35 times faster that the fastest current Firestore!

If the output was compressed to say a 50Mb/s codec first, that would work.

Two points on this compression issue: 1) if you are putting the SDI to a hard disk, why stick to the data rates imposed by a tape transport? Why not let the rate rise as required to maintain a picture quality level? There would be a certain rate at which MPEG2 would be fine, even for blue screen work and this would be way, way below the raw SDI stream data rate. HDV style compression at 100mBS would look perfect in almost all circumstances...and that would steream to a SATA2 drive...no problem.

2) for blue screen why no go one step further and extract and compress the KEY on the fly and store it as an alpha channel, say a 250 level grey scale using LZW compression, then one could compress the actual image data further without damaging the key as a seperate data stream.

Either way we should start thinking outside the box: Canon have kindly presented us with a great, pre-conformed SDI stream...lets make good use of it!! We just have to take that data and make different decisions to those forced on us by the HDV standard...one that suites OUR needs.

The electronics for decoding SDI is off-the-shelf, just look at cards available for computer systems..they are cheap.

I know the cool kids aren't supposed to stoop to using things like this but dammit I haven't had to do without a flip-out screen for 10 or 15 years, I love the range of camera placement you can get from it that you can't get when the eyepiece is chained to your head. Plus I have a glidecam and... ugh... how do you Xl1 veterans do it?

Betsy, I've talked to several companies that import those little LCD monitors that you can put on top of a camera. I asked for a Canon XL version of something like a 4" screen, native 16:9, on a rotating slide rail that would slip onto the EVF mounting channel on the camera body. So far no dice. I bet it would sell like crazy.

I found a company that sells a mount for the EVF rail... I'll look for it and see if I can't find it again...

Yes please, do tell! I'd love to find out who that is!

It actually took a little looking in some other DVInfo forums for me to find out who it was... It's a company that specializes in LCD monitors, specifically 2.35/2.4:1 and 16:9 LCDs... Anyways, if you look here (http://www.transvideointl.com/pages/english/products/CanonXL1.htm), you'll notice that the monitor is mounted on the XL1 where the EVF goes... I emailed them at one time and I think it was around $100-$150 for this mount by it's lonesome... of course then you need and LCD that fits the multipin connector on the XL series cams... maybe with a diagram of the pins and someone whos good with soldering you could get something that would work... Or maybe this company sells something, I dunno...

Thanks as always Chris and Kevin, nothing's simple in this life, is it? My main worry is that 24F thing. In the past none of those frame modes has been as good as the cameramaker's claimed; let's hope this is the first exception.

How about a Playstation Portable as an external monitor, it's a great screen, can it accept video in?

Why does the Canon XL H1 not uncompressed 1080i 4:4:4 over HD-SDI?

Why does the Canon XL H1 not uncompressed 1080i 4:4:4 over HD-SDI?
That is a dynamite question. Why doesn't it? Circuitry limitation?

4:4:4 requires dual link HDSDI. Single HDSDI feed doesn't have enough bandwidth to support 4:4:4.

David, When you said dual link SDI it hit me like a ton of bricks. That's what Liquid Chrome Editors have been asking for. I didn't make the connection because I've only worked in 422. Thanks for the reminder..

the "Introduction" link on
http://www.dvinfo.net/canonxlh1/watchdog.php
is broken.

Is the HD-SDI output 8bit, 10 bit or 12 bit 4:2:2 ?

Is the HD-SDI output 8bit, 10 bit or 12 bit 4:2:2 ?Canon is not stating the bit rate of the SDI output.

I am just hoping Canon is using a higher bit count for
camera processing than 8 bit ala the XL1.
Unfortunately, I would have wager that the HD1 is (only) 8 bit out.

I am GLAD to be prove wrong however :)

It will definitely be putting out 10 bits because that's what the standard calls for but the 2 LSB's will probably be 0's! I did stumble across a German site (couldn't find it again) that authoritatively stated that it's 8 bit output but that's just another rumor at this point as far as I'm concerned.

Is there a way to actually find out? Canon refuses to release that info?
What do some of the rental houses know?

Is there a way to actually find out? Canon refuses to release that info?
What do some of the rental houses know?
Once someone has captured some data from the interface there are various ways to tell. It should be obvious on a histogram, for example. Guess we'll have to wait until the things hit the street to know for sure.