Hello. I am looking for advice on choosing (not high-end but workable) external mics for a Canon XA10. Total mic budget is 350-400.

Ideally, I am not liking internal mic due to wind. This is needed...

1. Shotgun mic for distant subject sounds (like the AT875 http://tinyurl.com/3xtwy6 )

2. Omni mic of some sort for stereo ambient sound. Vids are nice when this is clear.
3. A mic for my voice that can record me at a constant level (even with my head bobbing all over the place).

Do I need 3 mics? Any hardware recommendations would be very appreciated. Thanks.

All mics are subject to wind. It's how you dress the mic that can make the difference. Be it a foam cover (minimal) a furry or dead cat or a blimp.

I don't know of any one mic that will be able to accomplish your needs. that doesn't mean it's not out there but I have never seen or heard of one.

When you say distance, how far is the distance you want to cover?
Many mics will get you ambient sound along with sounds you might not want but again no 1 mic is a do it all.
As for not changing levels as you turn your head...mic's generally work on the premise that you are speaking into the mic and turning your head away from it your mic will not pick up the same level of sound as if your head was facing the mic.
IMO you'll either need multiple mics running thru a mixer OR you need to decide what is most important to you and let the rest fall where it may.
Other, much more knowledgable folks will pop in here and be able to give more precise answers.

Hi Nick

It would be a lot more helpful if you identified what you are likely to shoot most and at what distance. As an example at weddings, I use a Rode Videomic on my camera for doing "roving interviews" with guests where I am no further than 3 or 4' from the subject so I get good audio...at a wedding ceremony where a camera is around 30' from the couple a shotgun on the camera is totally worthless and you need lav mics on the officiant and the groom....apart from ambient audio an external mic to get good audio needs to be really close to a subject for recording speech.... I really don't know what you are in to and a general shotgun just might be all you need?? Filming race cars would be fine but expecting the same mic to pick up the winner's speech from 100' away just won't work.

A little extra info will allow people here to decide what to use...in my gear inventory I have two Rode Videomics, two AKG boundary mics and three Azden radio mics with lavs...and that's just for weddings!!

There is often a different mic for a different situation!!

Chris

Thanks for the help. I am mostly shooting wildlife in the woods. Birds, mammals, usually no more than 50' away. The goal is to hear their rustling, calling etc, mixed with good local sound and my voice (level).

I am assuming the Canon xa10 mixes the input from both xlrs. Hope that's right.

If I use the AT875 to maximize the primary subject's sound, would something like a stereo lav mic with a wind sock record my voice and ambient sound better than the shotgun?

Too bad the XA10's 'MIC' input won't mix with the XLR inputs. Budget won't allow an external mixer, assuming every option is in the several hundreds of $.

Maybe I am pushing my luck and tiny budget :-) Is there such a thing as a decent sounding stereo lapel mic with a wind sock? Hmm... now realizing that a lav mic cannot pick up ambient well. :-(

Huh, 50 feet?

Why not 50 miles when it comes to microphones, same problem only harder, still do - able if you have the Defence Department budget to play with.

You want 50', you either go with external mics on transmitters, stragetically placed where the talent is (been there, done that, works great, except they will insist on crapping all over the gear, in the case of birds), or a reflector mic with a dish, no other options.

You want ambient - any omni will do the job, even get that car going down the freeway 5 miles away, chainsaw 10 miles away etc without too much efffort.

Want your voice "up close and personal"? Lav, no other option that I can see.

Beginning to see the problem(s)?


CS

You want 50', you either go with external mics on transmitters, stragetically placed where the talent is (been there, done that, works great, except they will insist on crapping all over the gear, in the case of birds), or a reflector mic with a dish, no other options.

That's a cup of tea you owe me, Chris Soucy, and I had to put my shirt in to the wash.
My laptop screen cleans easily, fortunately.

PS I use small sandwich bags on the TX but the little b***ers always manage to get the mic somehow.

I would say the answer here is a reflector...scount around the shops that sell "spy/surveillance" gear and you will find one.

BTW: All pro cams with two XLR inputs will record one to channel 1 and one to channel two but if you only use one XLR channel you can always mix/duplicate the signal in your NLE

Chris

Nick, shotgun mics are NOT for distant subjects. It sounds like you're falling for the common myth that a shotgun mic is somehow a "telephoto lens for sound" magnifying distant sounds so that you can record them clearly. This is not at all what they do. A shotgun does not have any more sensitivity to distant sounds than does any other mic; instead it has reduced sensitivity to sound arriving from the sides and rear so as to better isolate the sound source towards which it's pointed from the surrounding environment.

Why record your voice at the time you shoot in the field? Sounds like you want to include narration but the time to do that is in post-production, not when shooting.

A single omni mic does NOT record stereo ambiance. Stereo requires two mics that are placed one of several specific patterns with regard to the sound source. Simply recording to two channels does not make it stereo. In point of fact, stereo is only rarely recorded in the field and is generally limited to music.

Here is a link to a wildlife rig

Parabolic Microphones SME PR-1000 Parabolic Microphone Reflector : SME Nature Division (http://mineroff-nature.com/nature/sme-pr1000-parabolic-microphone-p-187.html)

I'm sure there are many more online.

If you have to do narration then you can plug your dish into XLR1 and then plug a lav mic into XLR2 and clip it on your shirt collar and do your narration.

Chris

The Shure web site has some interesting white papers on recording and on microphones. Worth reading.

The above comments are generally spot on. A microphone is dumb, all sound reaching it is heard. Some mics just are less sensitive to sound off axis according to its directionality pattern. Unlike the human ear-brain system, a mic cannot differentiate among sounds coming from the same direction ignoring some in favor of others - the loudest sound is heard best. As the mic moves further from the person speaking (or other sound source) the venue acoustics and background noises come more into play and what you record sounds different, and it will not be quite the same as your ears hear.

A compressor is a solution to varing sound levels as you turn your head, found in most audio editing programs, and a potential benefit (of sorts) of the audio AGC in camcorders. Using a lav mic can help.

Recording wishes among folk at a reception. I find a wireless with handheld mic works great. Because the mic is a few inches form the lips of the person speaking the obnoxious DJ playing distored music does not drown them out if I am shooting from the other side of the table.

Appreciate the "input" on this. :-)

I understand the point about shotgun mics achieving their effect by cancellation as opposed to some sort of magnification. While I have no experience with professional external mics, I used the Canon DM–50 on a consumer camcorder for a couple of years.

In shotgun mode, that mic was able to pick up all sorts of sounds that would otherwise be drowned out by ambient noise. We love to head over to the airport and film small aircraft takeoffs and landings. That basic shotgun mic hybrid was able to somehow grab the sound of landing gear retraction at 500 feet, that I had never heard previously.

By marvelous coincidence, I just found an Olympus ME51S electret condenser microphone in my desk drawer.

Olympus ME-51S Stereo Microphone 145037 B&H Photo Video (http://tinyurl.com/8wlpoym)

It was originally bought to record natural sounds to an Olympus digital recorder. It is not directional so I think it might serve to blend my voice and ambient sounds and an acceptable way, provided I can cover it somehow.

Does this arrangement below, for the olympus lav mic make sense?

Connect mic to this adapter...

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/mas_assets/full/SP-XLRM3-MINI-3.jpg

and then connect that to the camera's 2nd xlr input by a 6 foot xlr female to male. Not sure if hum is an issue at 6 feet but preventing it is the point of adding xlr adapter right at the olympus mic.

For wildlife sounds maybe a mic with a parabolic reflector would be good. Search Wikipedia for "Parabolic microphone".

I looked into this, but the need to travel light prevents it. The xa10 shotgun mount prevents any mirror, assuming even a small one would help.

You'd never attach a dish to the camera, it would always have a separate mic. However, the closeup sounds you often hear on the big TV docs are often not the sound of the subject, because with long lenses, there really is no audio equivalent that is not seriously BIG! good quality sound at a distance is possible if you can set it up in advance, but doing wildlife and expecting good audio at a distance at random locations is going to mean complex and expensive audio, or an effects session in post!

At 50 feet, a creature's purring or growling is likely to be so quiet that recording is not a simple task.

You also sound like you want to record you doing on the spot commentary too - not really a problem, any of the usual interview omnis would be fine (my favourite the Beyer M58) but then you'll need extra people to work it all. Are we on the right track?

Not yet but getting there. :-)

Don't need quiet low frequency sounds of subject. Just their calls and louder rustling sounds are what I am usually looking for.

Always solo for the technical part. My wife often helps spotting but that's it.

Here is an issue with the olympus lav mic. During testing with the MIC input on the xa10 nothing is being picking up. Is this mic not compatible with the xa10 1/8" mini terminal?

Here are the mic specs

Type Stereo Electret Condenser Microphone
Frequency Response 100Hz - 15kHz
Directivity Uni-directional x 2
Sensitivity -40dB @ 1kHz
Impedance 2.2 kOhms
Plug 3.5mm Stereo
Power Supply Plug-in-power System (1.5V - 10V)

and here are the xa10 mic input specs

f3.5 mm stereo minijack (unbalanced)
Sensitivity For microphone input: -65 dBV (auto volume, full scale -12 dB) / 5 kO
For line input: -30 dBV (auto volume, full scale -12 dB) / 5 kO
Microphone attenuator: 20 dB

Okay, research shows I probably need a preamp for this sort of lav mic. Guess I'll play this out here for posterity :-)

The Olympus mic needs "plug-in power" in order to work. (This is fairly common: most consumer-grade electret mics need this.)

Therefore, the Canon mic input needs to supply "plug-in power" to the microphone. You'll need to read your manual to find out for sure.

The specs listed on the Canon website say there are two XLR input jacks; these definitely will not have "plug-in power."

However, the specs also mention a 3.5mm stereo input jack. If this can be used for the mic input, it may have the "plug-in power" that you need. The specs do not mention it. However, "plug-in power" has been very common on consumer equipment for at least ten years, so it seems likely that the camera provides it.

Of course you need to have the input switched to "mic" mode. The "line" input mode will not have plug-in power, and also will not have enough gain for any mic level signal.

...
If I use the AT875 to maximize the primary subject's sound, would something like a stereo lav mic with a wind sock record my voice and ambient sound better than the shotgun?
...(

Why do you want to record your voice and the ambient sounds together? In the field concentrate on the animal sounds and the ambiance. AFTER you have returned home and AFTER you have edited the picture is the time to record your voice commentary (written to fit the images and recorded while viewing the edited picture) and add it to the edited video as a step very close to the end of the entire process.

Greg. The xa10 has +48v phantom power for the 2 xlr inputs. Will this give the needed power if I convert the stereo mic 1/8" to xlr?

Here is a question that will show my ignorance. If a mic has a stereo signal and is fed to one xlr input, will that stereo be preserved or blended to mono? I'm wanting a shotgun mic in one xlr and a stereo in the other.

Guess I'm wondering if these camcorders have a mixing function in them.

No! +48 volt will likely destroy the consumer mic you have, which is designed to operate from a maximum of 10 volts.

+48 volt phantom is entirely different from "plug in power." True phantom is used for professional condenser mics with balanced wiring. You have a consumer mic with unbalanced wiring and "plug in power." You can't burn aviation fuel in your volkswagen, and you can't use phantom power with a consumer mic.

A consumer mic like yours has left channel (unbalanced) on one terminal (tip), right channel (unbalanced) on one terminal (ring), and common ground as well as shield on the third terminal (sleeve).

A professional XLR connector has "hot" signal on one terminal (pin 2) and inverted signal on one terminal (pin 3), thus giving balanced connectivity, and shield on pin 1. Phantom voltage (if it's turned on) appears equally on pin 2 and pin 3.

Of course there are many possible inter-connections between 3.5mm TRS and XLR, so I can't say with 100% certainty what would happen. If sleeve=pin 1, tip=pin 2, and ring=pin 3 (a likely adapter configuration), and if your stereo mic had its own internal power supply (which it does not -- so it won't work at all), then any audio common to both channels (typically your voice if you're equidistant from the two mic elements) would nearly cancel out and become inaudible (or at least very "thin" and wretched sounding). Only the stereo component (sounds that appeared almost exclusively in one channel of the other) would show up in the XLR input; and they would be out-of-phase, at that.

To properly use your present consumer mic with that recorder, at the very least you need a battery box which provides the "plug-in power" to the mic, and passes the audio through to the 3.5mm mic input on the camcorder. Otherwise you need a mixer which provides power and proper connectivity for input and output.

As it stands now, each XLR input on your camcorder is one channel, for a total of two. If you want to record stereo (two) plus a mono narration track, that's a total of three. The only possibility would be if your camera can mix the XLR inputs with the 3.5mm input. Read your manual.

If you really want to do something this complex, you will ultimately need a mixer, and one that has the proper connectivity for whatever mics you're using. If some of them are professional mics needing phantom power, and some are consumer mics needing "plug in power" then good luck to you... that will be a rather strange mixer IMHO.

(Translation: you can't get $5,000.00 production audio with a $300.00 budget.)

Wow this is really helpful. Thanks for jumping in here. You should charge a consulting fee for that level of knowledge... kidding : - )

Can you possibly recommend hardware that might give me the desired effect? Is there a way to get a separate stereo signal to mix with the shotgun signal in a harmonious way? The camera cannot mix xlr and the MIC terminal. The MIC terminal can only mix with the built in mics.

Is each xlr a separate stereo input.

My budget for a stereo lapel mic and anything else needed (excluding the shotgun) is around 200. Was hoping to add this mic to an Audio Technica AT875, each using an xlr input.

Nick, you seem to not grasping the stereo / mono bit.
A Stereo mic is actually 2 microphones in a single setup, it has 2 outputs L & R it needs to be recorded separately onto individual tracks, and if your camera only has 2 audio tracks that's all you can record..

If you mix L+R you will get MONO which is the same as a single mic and can't be descrambled back into stereo....EVER

Lav mics are MONO mics.
Shotgun mics are MONO mics.
Hand mics are MONO mics.

Stereo mics in many of configurations are regarded as specialist mics

Is each xlr a separate stereo input.

No. As I said above, each XLR is one channel. Stereo, of course, is two channels.

Can you possibly recommend hardware that might give me the desired effect? Is there a way to get a separate stereo signal to mix with the shotgun signal in a harmonious way? The camera cannot mix xlr and the MIC terminal. The MIC terminal can only mix with the built in mics.

That really depends on your whole production flow. Most of the people on this forum would probably recommend that you record everything separate: parabolic mic for the distant animals, mono lav for yourself, and perhaps a stereo pair for ambience. That's a total of four channels. Then you would mix those in post-production, to get a pleasing balance.

If you want to do that, then you'd need a way to record two more channels, in addition to the two channels on your camera. Many people would use something like a Tascam, Sony, or other portable stereo recorder (which you could use for the stereo ambience). Then in post, you'd sync up the camera with the separate audio, and finally produce the desired mix of those four channels.

Now, if you had a good audio person working with you, and a portable audio mixer, you could perhaps -- with luck -- achieve a good two-channel mix on the fly, and record that on the two channels of your camera. But working alone, you will never get a good mix of all those different elements, while running the camera and worrying about the image. And once those elements are mixed down to two tracks on the camera, there is no way you will separate them and clean up the mix in post.

My budget for a stereo lapel mic and anything else needed (excluding the shotgun) is around 200. Was hoping to add this mic to an Audio Technica AT875, each using an xlr input.

First of all, there is no good reason to use a stereo lapel mic. You have one voice, that should get recorded through one (mono) microphone element onto one channel. A stereo lapel mic won't be pointing toward your mouth, it will be pointing somewhere off to the sides. It will use two channels to get a bad recording of your voice. A mono lapel mic will use one channel to get a good recording.

Next, you seem determined to get a shotgun, although that's really not the right tool for quiet animal noises at 50' distance. Then you need a pair of mics if you want stereo ambience. That's a total of four mics.

And finally, if you want to record and mix it live, which is a really bad idea, you need to buy a mixer.

Fuggedaboddit!!!!!!!!!!!! You are many times over your budget.

You are using an $1100.00 camera, you can expect your audio gear to cost at least that much, given the complexity of the track that you want to capture. (Or do you want cheesy "Radio Shack" quality audio to accompany your beautiful HD image?)

The simple way out: buy a portable stereo recorder (Tascam DR-05 or similar) and use its stereo mics to capture ambience. That whole works will set you back about $100.00.

Get some modest mono lav mic for your narration. Spend whatever's left on a good rig for your "distant animal grunts" recording. (IMHO a parabolic will be much more selective than any other kind of mic.) Record those two mics on the camera, and mix that with the ambience in post. That's your best shot at getting it done within your budget.

Ok I've absorbed most of this now.

I paid 1999. Expecting this camcorder to come down. Hope it isn't that low already :-(

Now understand that the camera cannot possibly mix stereo input and shotgun mono. Suppose that the 2nd xlr is only useful for an additional mic.

I guess the stereo recorder is the best option.

Since there will be redundant ambient sound in the lav, the recorder and whatever I use to record "grunts," will there be some cancellation or other negative effect?

"Nick, you seem to not grasping the stereo / mono bit."

Well it was the xlr inputs that were not understood. Now I do. Thanks very much for clarifying.

Why is the field mixer a bad idea? That would eliminate all of the sound remixing.

Why is the field mixer a bad idea? That would eliminate all of the sound remixing.

Read it again...

if you want to record and mix it live, which is a really bad idea, you need to buy a mixer.

A professional with years of experience would find it challenging to "mix it live". No offense, but you don't have a prayer of doing it even to your own satisfaction.

Remember that almost NONE of the sound you hear in nature videos was recorded on the camera or in sync with shooting the video. The right (or safe) place for a camera is ALMOST NEVER the right place for a microphone to pick up nature sounds. The sounds are typically either collected separately (optimized for sound recording, not for shooting video) or a surprisingly large percentage of what you hear in nature videos was created artificially by Foley artists during post-production (perhaps thousands of miles from the original action.)

I did read it again and thought about it. In spite of my "gaff" regarding xlr (another good pun :-), my chin remains high. Personally I enjoy complex problems and am relishing working this out. Struggling to balance audio levels while sitting on a log is my idea of fun!

So based on everything (and unwarranted optimism), this appeals

http://static.bhphoto.com/images/largeimages/294571.jpg

and this

http://static.bhphoto.com/images/largeimages/495302.jpg

Regarding this,

To properly use your present consumer mic with that recorder, at the very least you need a battery box which provides the "plug-in power" to the mic, and passes the audio through to the 3.5mm mic input on the camcorder. Otherwise you need a mixer which provides power and proper connectivity for input and output.

Does this mean that the plug-in powered Olympus mic would work (with this mixer) if I use a Y (3.5 mm to 2 channels of XLR male) converter?

That ends up with $310 including tax and shipping. I am flat on my face if the Olympus is still not going to work. It would have combined my voice and ambient sources nicely, reducing the input to 3 channels and simplifying things.

Struggling to balance audio levels while sitting on a log is my idea of fun!

As long as your definition of "fun" doesn't include any sort of decent audio mix.

Does this mean that the plug-in powered Olympus mic would work (with this mixer) if I use a Y (3.5 mm to 2 channels of XLR male) converter?
If you have to ask that question, then you don't know as much about XLR connections as you think. (Hint: the answer is no way unless you want to fry the microphone)

Okay, I mis-read Greg's post then. Forgetting the Olympus... a stereo lapel mic of some sort would solve a lot here.

Mainly, it would allow me to narrate at a reasonably balanced level (in spite of moving around) and would pick up ambient sound, combining both into 2 channels. From experience, a wearable stereo mic of this size and quality, along with one of these types of covers

http://tinyurl.com/9sojctc

is adequate for what I do. Can your recommend a "type" of wearable mic that would be compatible with the mixer?

Still have $90 in the budget.

There are no "stereo" lapel mics. Reason: the concept is ridiculous. Only politicians (who talk out of both sides of their mouth) need stereo microphones for speech.

Trying to record speech AND ambient sounds concurrently with the same microphone is just insane. Nobody who knows what they are doing would even dream of trying that. You have no control over the balance or "mix" between the speech and the ambient sounds.

Nick,

With all due respect to you as a human being, you have mis-read numerous things that have been stated (and re-stated) here. You insist on disagreeing with all the technical information that has been given to you.

Numerous people have tried to explain this from various perspectives, and in every case you end up explaining why these people are wrong. You've obviously already decided what you want to do, and you go to great pains to explain that your preconceived idea is more valid than our combined years of experience.

So let me boil this down to one non-technical question, which is more philosophical in nature:

Are you here to get advice, or to give it?

Responding to Richard's post first

I'm hoping for product recommendations. The Olympus mic that I own is a stereo lapel mic and does an acceptable (in my opinion very good) job of just this. I'm an amateur filming hawks and armadillos with an xa10, not the audio track for a motion picture. :-)

To show these mics exist, its the bottom one in the pic.

http://tinyurl.com/9sojctc

This is an omni-directional stereo mic that works quite well on one's lapel.

Being phantom powered lav mics are expensive (for my budget), can anyone recommend a small battery box that would allow the Olympus to transmit the right voltage to the mixer? It would be very appreciated.

Greg

Please reread my replies. Your statement indicating that I have said "why" everyone is wrong does not reflect what has happened. Today, you may have gotten angry but I have learned a great deal. Yesterday I knew nearly nothing. Please don't say I still do know nothing, that would be trite.

My current plan is to use a shotgun (to everyone's disapproval) based though on my past success with them for my use. The battery pack to connect a stereo lapel (again used in the past with success) comes from your recommendation. You have taught a rank amateur (very appreciated) and were mostly patient with me. Hang in there!

Nick

Being phantom powered lav mics are expensive (for my budget), can anyone recommend a small battery box that would allow the Olympus to transmit the right voltage to the mixer?

No, no, no. (smacking self on forehead) You still don't get it at all.

The mic does not provide the DC power to the mixer or recorder or camera.

The mixer or recorder or camera should provide DC power to make the mic work.... or else you need the battery box.

Really, Nick, you have so badly misconstrued the technical details that I'm afraid to give you any further suggestions, for fear that you will misinterpret them and either waste money on the wrong hardware, or muck up something (e.g. blowing up a mic by using the wrong power).

(If I needed such a power supply, I'd build one. Obviously since you continue to confuse phantom power with "plug in power" and have no basic understanding of electronics, it's not safe for you to even contemplate building such a thing.)

If you get the correct mixer, it will provide power for the mic; you won't need a battery box at all. On the other hand, if you get the wrong mixer, or use the wrong adapter, and feed the wrong power to the mic, you have a very good chance of blowing up the mic. Read the specs for the mic. Read the specs for the mixer in question. That should answer all your questions. If not, you'd be better off consulting a reliable dealer who can hold your hand and hopefully avoid any fatal errors.

In fact, you obviously don't have very high expectations about the audio quality. I think the simplest thing for you to do is just go to the local Radio Shack (not to be confused with "reliable dealer") and let them sell you some consumer junk. If it works to your satisfaction (i.e. getting $50 sound to accompany your $1100 picture) then that's great. If it doesn't work, or blows up something else, then at least you'll know who to blame.

Mr. Mirro, Those are cheap plastic consumer toys. They are not "lav" mics as witnessed by the fact that most of them have a 3.5mm stereo jack where they are intended to plug directly into your little toy recorder, not hang from your necktie or clip to your blouse.

I shouldn't have to even say this here, but nobody seriously believes that you can get any significant "stereo" effect from two microphone capsules (especially omnidirectional ones) spaced less than an inch apart. Those things are sold to technically ignorant consumers who don't know any better. But of course if you have your mind made up, nothing we write here will have any effect on your decision. OTOH, for others who are reading this, get a clue and do some reasonable research.

I regret even getting into this hopeless conversation.

So Richard said this regarding whether the mixer could power the Olympus mic.

(Hint: the answer is no way unless you want to fry the microphone)

which is why I went back to the batter box idea. And now you, Greg are saying this.

If you get the correct mixer, it will provide power for the mic

and then this

Really, Nick, you have so badly misconstrued the technical details that I'm afraid to give you any further suggestions, for fear that you will misinterpret them and either waste money on the wrong hardware, or muck up something (e.g. blowing up a mic by using the wrong power).

Lets all swallow our pride here and maybe we can end on a good note. Greg, please consider telling me how I might get the Olympus to work with the desired mixer. That would be very appreciated, and my esteem for you would be even higher.

Richard, The separate $69 (my price) Olympus stereo mic comes with a tie-clip and an extension.

Nick:

What are the specs for the "desired mixer" ? I think I've stated more than once that you need to check the specs. You seem to be ignoring this.

Nick, why do you want to record your commentary in the field as you're shooting? You're going to be busier than a one-armed paper hanger trying to handle the camera and record clear, coherent narration at the same time and both elements of a successful video are going to suffer as a result. Record and add your narration commentary later as part of the editing process.

Nick, why do you want to record your commentary in the field as you're shooting?

Just a guess, Steve, but I think it's a high school science project.

Ok well I guess its not a high school science project. Maybe I'm something like a doctor and owner of a software business. For what this is worth, I've been a serious wildlife photographer/naturalist for 17 years. I'm just new to the idea of videography with improved audio, a very steep learning curve if compressed to a week, as here.

Oh well, pejoratives aside, here are the specs for the mixer. I still appreciate the input :-) from experts in this area, even if it comes with some freshman hazing.

Input Connections 4 - 3-pin XLR female
Output Connectors 2 - 3-pin XLR male
Max Input/Output Gain +55dB
Input Impedance: 600 Ohms
Output Impedance: XLR 500 Ohms
Signal-to-Noise Ratio 84dB
Phantom Power +18V DC
AC Power Requirements x2 9-Volt Alkaline Batteries
Current Draw: 30mA
Dimensions 6.3 x 2.3 x 3.7" (160 x 58.41 x 93.98mm) (WxHxD)
Weight 1.5 lbs (680.38 g)

Regarding field narration, I am looking for that option but don't to do it exclusively. As you suggest, live narration is very tough to do even fairly well, but it is a skill you can build. I have been working at it since starting with the prior HG10 in 2009. Hope that clarifies a bit.

Photography in the bush is like hanging paper with one arm (upside-down as my wife says). That is part of the appeal. :-)

What ...... Phantom power 18volts? NEVER get a mixer that will not give you 48v phantom power other wise it will dramatically limit your choice of usable mics.

Thanks for the help. Here are the 2 mics that I'm hoping to use with that mixer.

AUDIO TECHNICA AT875

Transducer Fixed-charge back plate, permanently polarized condenser
Polar Pattern Line + gradient
Frequency Response 90Hz - 20,000Hz
Dynamic Range (Typical) 107 dB, 1 kHz at Max SPL
Sensitivity -30 dB (31.6 mV) re 1V at 1 Pa
Impedance 100 ohms
Signal-to-Noise Ratio RATIO 74 dB, 1 kHz at 1 Pa
Maximum Input Sound Level 127 dB SPL, 1 kHz at 1% T.H.D.
Power Requirements 11-52V DC, 2 mA typical
Output Impedance 100 ohms
Output Connectors Integral 3-pin XLRM-type
Phantom Power 11-52VDC, 2 mA typical
Dimensions 6.89" (175.0mm) Long
0.83" (21.0mm) Diameter
Weight 2.8 oz (80 g)


AND THE PROBLEM CHILD - Olympus ME51S Olympus ME-51S Stereo Microphone 145037 B&H Photo Video (http://tinyurl.com/8wlpoym)

(using a Y-adapter)

Type Stereo Electret Condenser Microphone
Frequency Response 100Hz - 15kHz
Directivity Uni-directional x 2
Sensitivity -40dB @ 1kHz
Impedance 2.2 kOhms
Plug 3.5mm Stereo
Power Supply Plug-in-power System (1.5V - 10V)
Dimensions (L x B x H)
1.5 x 0.55 x 1.6" (38 x 14 x 40mm)
Weight 0.24 oz (7 g), 0.6 oz (18 g) with cable and clip

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Regarding field narration, I am looking for that option but don't to do it exclusively. As you suggest, live narration is very tough to do even fairly well, but it is a skill you can build. I have been working at it since starting with the prior HG10 in 2009. Hope that clarifies a bit.
...:-)[/QUOTE]

Actually it doesn't. I'm a "do whaver it takes to do it the best it can be done" sort of guy. If recording in the field means the quality will be compromsed, instead of trying to fit the round peg into the square hole by "building the skill" and making the best of it, I change the approach and do what I know will work better, In the case of narration I see no benefit to recording in the field but lots of potential negatives. So I'fd focus on pictures in the field, perhaps making notes to myself on a pocket note recorder if I felt the need, and record my actual narration back in the edit studio where I can focus exclusively on the task at hand and use the right equipment to get the job done a good as I can do it.

Please let me continue what I have been doing such that I can use the Canon XA10? I really miss it. The HG10 was sold and so things are kind of at a standstill. The budget for this will not allow it to be done as you might prefer.

If giving out this sort of hardware compatibility advice, or not doing it "the best it can be done," is against terms of service here...

Can I just say I won't do it and ask how the 2 mics may be made to work (if possible) with the mixer?

Forget the Olympus mic..... It is a mic made for domestic note taker recorders and NOT for serious video production.

If you purchase an audio mixer make sure it has the capability to monitor the return audio back from the camera.

Brian. My productions are not that serious. Just trying to get something together on a very tight budget. The mic output has been tested and is perfect for my use. Its sound quality, balance of ambient and voice, and the fact that I own it already make it perfect from my view.

I've already used it and love the results. It is in line with or better than any lav mic at that price point.

...

Can I just say I won't do it and ask how the 2 mics may be made to work (if possible) with the mixer? What mixer are you asking for compatibility information on, make and model? If it's the Rolls you pictured earlier in the thread, it has XLR inputs only so while the AT 875 will work just fine with it, the Oly lav will be a problem. Connecting the Oly through the Rode 1/8 to XLR adapter you pictured earlier takes the left and right signals coming through the TRS plug and parallels them both to pin 2 of the XLR. This means at best it will give you a mono mix on one recording channel only. But as discussed before, to give you any sound at all the Oly needs to be fed plugin power which is both a different voltage and fed into the mic cable in a completely different arrangement from the phantom voltage that mixer supplies. Connecting the Oly to the Rode adapter and plugging them into the Rolls (or any other brand) mixer will not give you any sound and turning on the phantom power is liable to destroy the mic's internal electronics. To use the AT 875 there's nothing you need do other than plug it in with a regular XLR cable, for the Oly lav there's nothing you can do to get it to work with that mixer.
You could custom build a breakout "Y" cable to take a female inline TRS jack you plug the mic into and feed the tip to pin 2 on one XLR, the ring to pin 2 on a second XLR, and the ground to pin 1 on both XLRs while connecting pin 3 to pin 1 in each XLR - that would get a stereo signal in through a pair of the mixer's XLR inputs, but it still doesn't solve the power problem - no sound without power but turn on the phantom and zzzzzp scratch one mic.

Nick,

You're making me repeat myself, and that's why I'm getting annoyed.

In an earlier post I told you there are two basic mic powering schemes: phantom, and "plug-in power." I said clearly that those are not compatible.

You've posted the specs for the Olympus mic, it is "plug-in power."

You've finally posted the specs for the (rather non-standard economy) mixer, it is "phantom" power.

Therefore, that mic and that mixer are not compatible. You didn't need to ask that question... again.

Yes, in theory, they could be made to work together, if you had the correct interface electronics. But two sets of interface parts (one for each channel of the mic) would probably end up outweighing the cost of the mic.

Frankly, I've become rather annoyed by your ongoing stubbornness and unwillingness to accept suggestions from experts (hence my conclusion that you're a high school student). I am not going to attempt to explain all the necessary theory to you concerning the necessary interface electronics. And I am not going to waste my time looking through numerous catalogs to see if anyone makes the kind of interface that you need. Basically, you're asking for a huge amount of time and tutoring here, and generating a fair amount of frustration, because you're too cheap to replace your $50 consumer mic. (If you're really a doctor, you can surely afford a real mic.)

If you really want to persist with this folly, please take my previous advice: go to a dealer (reputable or cheap, as you prefer) and let them put together the pieces of the puzzle for you.

(My gosh, when I get chest pains, I don't go on some online forum, ask for a free diagnosis, and then disagree with what I'm told -- that's exactly what you're doing here. When I get chest pains, I go to my doctor and let him solve the problem -- that's what you need to do. Go to a dealer. Why would you NOT?)

Then the dealer will at least make a few dollars for all the grief, and you will have somewhere to turn if and when you're not satisfied or you want to make changes down the road.

Thanks Steve. That makes things clear.

Greg, consider that your last point about the compatibility of the Olympus mic was this...

If you get the correct mixer, it will provide power for the mic; you won't need a battery box at all.

This comment was the sole reason I have pursued this option. Think about this. I posted the specs for the mixer I subsequently found, hoping you would tell me yea or nay, which you never did. You just got angry along with other posters, who were angry about things that weren't true (e.g. the Olympus mic was not even a lapel mic).

Maybe you are being too sensitive here. I've done nothing but compliment you and remained patient through a seemingly endless barrage of negative comments. I accept that you guys have tons of experience and knowledge and that I am just starting, and on a shoestring.

A happy conclusion is still possible. Is there a pair of lapel mics that I could twist and connect to the xlrs of my cheap mixer :-) that might sell for under ~ $80 together? I am not stuck on the Olympus. It just seemed reasonable to use it since it cost me $69 and made good sound. Now it has been stuck in the drawer back with its recorder - permanently.

Quote.... "A happy conclusion is still possible. Is there a pair of lapel mics that I could twist and connect to the xlrs of my cheap mixer :-)"

WTF?

We are 4 pages into such a simple topic and at this rate will be onto page 8 soon....
I have never seen a more frustrating thread on a forum.

I posted the specs for the mixer I subsequently found, hoping you would tell me yea or nay, which you never did.

Nick, the point is that I explained long ago about the two different (and incompatible) types of mic power. You have the ability to read the specs. The specs for your mic say "plug-in power" and the specs for the mixer say "phantom power." If you had taken the time to read the specs, and pay attention to the info given to you, you would have known that this was not a compatible mixer for your toy microphone.

There was no reason for you to waste time by asking the question again, when it had already been answered.

And, by the way, you originally didn't post any specs for the mixer, you just posted a picture. Now think about it, Nick, how much use is that little picture to anyone? I have repeatedly mentioned, and asked for, specs. How long did it take you before you got around to posting them. And even then, if you had read them yourself, you wouldn't have needed to ask.


You just got angry along with other posters,

What does that tell you, Nick? Are we all wrong? Could it be that there's something wrong about your approach? (But based on what I perceive as your huge ego, you will probably answer that we are all wrong, and your interaction here is absolutely rational and faultless.)

I am glad to answer intelligent questions, and glad to help someone learn a bit. But I am not here to answer the same questions over and over again, and I am not here to hold someone's hand. If I had wanted that role in life, I would have studied elementary education, rather than broadcast engineering.

Please get a clue: nobody here is going to recommend a pair of cheap plastic microphones that you can twist together.

Go to Radio Shack, they will sell you something that will fulfill your wildest dreams. With luck, they may even tell you it's a great idea.