I'm thinking seriously about taking a whack at it. I used to dabble in music and composition a bit, but I haven't had a keyboard since the early 90s. I'm sure there are mind-boggling advances in keyboards and computer connectivity and music sequencing software...so it'd be great to hear any tips some of you might have for equipment to consider.

I have a G4 Mac...and have an old Midi connector stored away somewhere...but that's all the equipment I've got.

Don't some people use sampling keyboards for foley? Seems like they'd be great for that.

Yes. I have an organ and a piano.

<<Yes. I have an organ and a piano.>>

All right, Frank. You can't get away with that answer. I'm obviously asking for advice here...sooooo...please advise me. Don't leave me hanging. Give me some details.

Lots of filmmakers have included music that they composed...especially indie filmmakers. And some of these compositions, although simple, are the ones we remember best.

It's impossible to get/afford the rights for popular music...which is a shame since music plays such an integral role in a film...and really doesn't do anything other than bring the music to an audience that might otherwise never know it exists...hence increasing the chances of bigger sales of the composer's CD. The music industry really has set up a Catch-22 situation for musicians.

Anyway...any other filmmakers that get as pissed off as I do about having to use cheesy copyright free music will understand why I want to do this.

John (the busiest man in indi movie making)

I play a little with creating my own music, i use a program called acid music, by you guessed it sonic foundry.

It allows you play with beats, loops and samples and even if those snippets are taken from copyrighted music, if you use under 5 seconds you are safe, and try to stay away from very distinguishable lyrics.

I have done this to good effect and create some nice tribal and hiphop music. There are also the groovebox and rubber ducky programs that can have you creating hardcore techno in minutes!!

One of the best ways i have got GREAT music for features is to go to a music school and university departments and leave notices up saying need composer/band/music for short film. I get no less than 20 calls and all are willing to show you what they can do and what they are good at, and this is totally free and using a person really suited for the job.

Indi movie music is always its best when simple and fitting of the movie, music is an extention of visual emotion and like lighting and camera movement must be used to further the emotion you are trying to convey to the audience at that particular moment, as well music should create motif's and building up an expectation with the audience for further interaction.

The best simple indi music i have ever heard done by a film maker is John Carpenter's music for Halloween, it was simply spectacular and had around 3 notes in it.

kermie

Kermie,

That's exactly the example I was thinking of, too. The "Halloween" main theme is so simple, but it sticks with you. "Dead Calm" is another simple but effective soundtrack that I like.

I've already looked at some of the music making programs. There's one for Mac that supposed to be pretty great. But I think I'd rather compose on a piano keyboard than a computer keyboard. I'd enjoy it more.

There are so many things to consider before buying equipment and software, though...just like when I first decided to buy a digital video camera...which brought me here in the first place.

Well, I've been playing the piano since I was 6. With an organ you can do all sorts of neat sounds. I just dub while playing, here and there, along with dubbing voice.

...er...that's uuum...nice.

Oh well...looks like I'm a pioneer. Gimme a few months and then I'll be ready to help out anyone looking to do the same thing.

John,
Kermie's idea about music students is great, there are a lot of music colleges here with lots of young kids who will be more than happy to provide music for a soundtrack. Not only are they studying how to play real instruments but a lot of them make music digitally using Reason, Cubase, Fruity Loops.

A lot of my friends are DJ's and musicians in their spare time, (when they are not teaching English) and they let me use their music if I find a song of theirs I like, I in turn film them when they have their events so it works out well for me. Going out to live shows is another way to find cool music, offer to film them in exchange for using their music.

During a recent viewing of Halloween I noticed that John Carpenter himself (the director) wrote and performed that haunting score.

i second (or third) the idea to use university music students. luckily my sister is a music/vocal major at a university here. and it's nice because not only does she know people within her classes, but she's hooked up with a few electronic artists outside of school as well as a few blues and lounge musicians. it's great having someone that knows what they're doing with music (i'm completely music illiterate). i know what i like and might sound good, but her knowing how to get it and what might work even better is a dream.

haha, and if they won't work for free, they can usually be persuaded with some beer, pizza and/or anime.

Ken, I've always thought that was pretty cool that John Carpenter made the soundtrack. I remember him on Letterman when it was first released. Until "El Mariachi" came along, he probably had the biggest low budget coup in history.

Rik and Matt, I definitely plan to try to schmooze some music students into writing some original music. Rik, do you know of any music schools or conservatories here in Tokyo. I searched the web and came up with not a whole lot. Almost all the schools they mentioned were small rock and roll schools.

I still plan to get a keyboard/sampler, midi connector, and software to do some myself. I'll start doing my homework now on what equipment is best, cheapest, and available here. Hey, if John Carpenter can do it...

I've composed music for several productions of my own. Earlier they were slideshows (yes, REAL slides) and nowadays DV productions (mainly nature, but I'm also planning my first feature).

I have a long hobby-based realationship with music, but no real musical studies. Besides the cons of that I also have some pros; I can really concentrate on the feeling the music creates and not worry too much about the "right" theory (of course I have the minimal knowledge considering e.g. notation to be able to compose by playing keyboard or drawing notes).

For financial reasons I use Live!-soundcard and soundfonts which I think has done the job so far. My music style is mainly a sort of orchestral/classical, but I've done other types of music as well.

The composing process goes from picture to music of vice versa. Sometimes I have a cut that I'm composing to or a piece of music I'm cutting to. It all depends on inspiration.

I wouldn't change my self-made music for anything (realistic that is) because if I have a vision of a scene (mood/emotion/whatever), it's a lot easier to bring it up in music by myself than to explain it to someone else.

Good luck on your composing. It's painful but it pays off. Financially and emotionally.

John,

I second the above using Acid by Sonic Foundry. I bought a collection of CD's specifically for the loops. Its a great tool and I am using it in my dv film.

I've also contacted a few musicians who are working on and allowing me to use their music in my film and future films.

I am working the same area you are. Pioneer away...

Cheers!

Derrick

I had a little dabble in music a while back with Logic Audio & EXS24 (software sample synth). Mostly made a few tunes to try to write music for classical setups (strings, horns, piano, percussion, etc) with individual instruments instead of just hitting the old "string section no. 32" presets. The sample CD's are not the cheapest in the world though (not to mention the cost of Logic and EXS24) so it's not for the absolute beginner who just want to try some stuf. Better to use Reason (www.propellerheads.se) or Acid.

If anyone wants to hear the results it's over at http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/187/henric.html

Regards,
Henrik

The college students are a great idea. I just completed my first short film (with zero filmmaking experience) and a musician that was between gigs did my music - 'just for the experience', he said! Sounds pretty good too. He used my cheesy, el-cheapo Casio keyboard (his was in the shop) and it wasn't bad! He also used loops and sound FX.

When others found out I was shooting/had shot a short film, musicians crawled out of the woodwork (at least three others) wanting to score the next film I shoot.

I agree with the gentleman that scoring your own - because you know the feelings/mood would be optimal, but I have no music background, other than being able to play a little guitar - and I wouldn't know where to begin!

Either do it yourself, or find the free musicians. I personally wouldn't use the copyright free CDs on a film. Of course I say that - if I can't find a free musician, I'll use what I have at my disposal!

As usual, this is just opinion!

I live for the day I can do everything, shoot, edit, compose, record, on and on. If you want total creative control, you must be able to create or at least conceptualize the total package. I'm pretty spoiled, I have been making my own audio stuff for a few years. I'm pretty new to video, but to me it's the only way to put music in a visual medium.

I have worked with people who prefer cheesy keyboards to high buck samplers simply because they sound more cheesy (El Maraichi's soundtrack was done this way). I have also read of people picking up a toy pianno in a yard sale and using it for sound creation. It's only as limited as your imagination. Fancy samplers and keyboards are great for Foley, as some contain some really cool stuff and some are able to take normal sounds and twist them into something completely new. Check out the (now obsolete) Roland Variphrase 9000 on the Roland web site (or eBay) sometime. It's the persons imagination not the tools that make it great.

Also multirack recording sytems like DigiDesign's Pro Tools make life a lot easier if you are making a real soundrack. They allow you to experiment until you get what you like and are realitively cheap. A Digi Mbox with 24 tracks is <$500 and the 002 with 32 tracks and an automated mixer is <$2500. Why spent all the money on a great camera and have a $29 PukeLE (er PeakLE) audio system for your killer soundtrack. Hopefully FCP4.0 will integrate some of Logic audio's horsepower in the next release.

my 2 cents
Mark

John,
I don't know any schools up in Tokyo, but try placing an ad at some of them and maybe someone there will have a friend who can help you if you are looking for a non-rock and roll sound.

John,

I have I friend in town were I live that works at a recording studio. He has scored pretty much everything that I have shot.

I was talking to him the other night about becoming a member here, simply to answer these types of questions.

I think this board is about due for a sound/music design forum. I also feel this would attract more members. What do you think?

-Nori

My first college degree was a Bachelors of Music in film composition. Sadly, for a variety of reasons, I never persued it. Until now!

Getting the video end of thing up and running in my happy little home-grown audio studio. Can't wait to compose my own music to my own videos for my own production company (small as it may be).

I can do the musical composition part just fine! It's the video recording, editing, rendering, etc. . . that I have to learn. And I'm enjoying every minute of this learning process! :)

Ted

Software to consider for midi/audio recording for film composition:

Emagic's Logic (sadly, they only make programs for the Mac usesers)
Steinberg's SX
Cakewalk's Sonar.
Sonic Foundry's Vegas Video 3 (except this program doesn't deal with midi. . .yet, at least.)

Ted

How about the actual process of scoring? Is there a certain method? Do you just watch the movie with your instrument of choice nearby and try to time the crescendos and um. . .anti-crescendos to fit onscreen action?

Hi John,

much like your experience I too have played. I used to play rythym, lead and bass guitars at some point in my distant past. Would program my own drum beats on a Roland 505. I also (in those days) had a Roland SCC-1 Sound Canvas Card and used Voyetra as an editing package.

I too have had this recent hankering to do my own (wildlife type stuff) as in so many instances I need to sync audio to video for max effect.

I have played around with the likes of Acid but don't like using their samples and find they curb creativity for what I want. I like the Pink Floyd kinda drama in music. More recently I have played around with some of the Cakewalk products and have found these to be a lot more useful, providing one has a rough idea of music. They are so fancy that by selecting a chord they will automatically transfer this to the treble clef with you having to know where each line goes. When complete many of them will actualy print your score.

Technology definitely has passed us by. My only concern is when one does all.....when dies one get time for sleep.

Good luck
Andrew


PS : Some of the bottom end Roland MIDI keyboards have blown my mind and will go a long way. I just like that note for note control where I can choose exacly when the kick drum or snare comes in and how much effect if any I choose to apply.

Is DOUGLAS SPOTTED EAGLE on these forums? If so he would give the best advice. Perhaps Chris can coerce him to do a write up in the Watchdog

I'll second a vote for Douglas Spotted Eagle...

Douglas Spotted Eagle said during one of his training tours that he uses Cakewalk SONAR for his composition work at home, and I think may use both SONAR and Acid for paying projects, depending on what fits the need.

If you enjoy the sample-based composition style of Acid, I'd also suggest checking out Ableton Live. It's sold through M-audio in the US, and features a similar style of dropping in samples and playing, except it is more DJ friendly, and can be played totally live, as a sampling/synthesizing instrument.

For scoring, both Sonic Foundry's Acid and Vegas products would do fine. Acid would make more sense for "building" music from samples and such, or with Vegas you can record a live track of guitar or another analog instrument. Both can record while playing back the video track at the same time.

I use a Roland Fantom and Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 to compose some music and sound effects. I have a friend who did the same thing, with a different el-cheapo keyboard and a Roland JV5080 sound processor. He now has been using synthetic samples for about 6 months and really likes it. The advantage for him is he can compose on his laptop anywhere he goes.
I have also used local bands for music and most will do it quite inexpensively if not for free. It is kind of a win-win in that case because you help each other out, you get the use of music and they get exposure.

Another setup that is popular is an external midi keyboard and Gigastudio. Gigastudio is a HardDrive based sampling program with lots of excellent sounding intruments. There is practically no limit to intrument sample size. I have the low end Gigastudio32 version that comes with their megapiano intrument and some excelent drum samples. I'ts windows only and allows you to record live to disk. I'm just learning how to use it properly and it's one of the most fun audio programs I've ever used.
BTW You need a sound card with Giga drivers. Don't even think about the Audigy series, look for true pro audio cards.

More info at www.tascam.com


Prices range from under 100.00 for Gigastudio32 up to
several hundred for Gigastudio160.

I got the 32 version at Sam Ash for 79.00.