Here's info on the x900m replacement.

Panasonic HC-X920 review ? Hands on | Expert Reviews (http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/camcorders/1296793/panasonic-hc-x920-review-hands-on)

I was hoping for something a little more upscale, but that didn't happen.

I split this post out of our mammoth TM900 thread, mainly because it's not about the now-long-discontinued TM900 but rather the replacement of the replacement of the TM900. Thanks for understanding!

And here is the full Panasonic Press Release. Back lit sensor illumination sounds a great new addition - should really improve the low light performance! (as claimed below)

Panasonic Introduces Full Lineup of Full-HD Camcorders at DV Info Net (http://www.dvinfo.net/news/panasonic-introduces-full-lineup-of-full-hd-camcorders.html)

If the 920 is anywhere close to $999, it's not worth it (at least for me).
Panasonic 32GB HC-X900M 3D Ready Full HD Camcorder HC-X900MK B&H

would seem to be a better value UNLESS the new model comes in at $799.

Just MY opine, of course.

Interesting hands-on report here:

Panasonic HC-X920 HD camcorder pictures and hands-on - Pocket-lint (http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/49000/panasonic-hc-x920-flagship-camcorder-pictures-and-hands-on)

No way will it be 1000 BP, I'd say more likely 600 BP and Panny will be lucky to get that. $999 US will be pushin it. We have that Pro Model ac90 lurking about for less than 2k.

Here's the Pana page: HC-X920/HC-X920M/HC-X910 | HD Camcorder | Panasonic Global (http://panasonic.net/avc/camcorder/hd/x920/)

Panasonic HC-X920K - X920: 3MOS Ultrafine Full HD Video Camcorder - Overview (http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/HC-X920K)

For an MSRP of $1000, Id look more closely at the new Canon that has reportedly a %20 improvement in low light ( VIXIA HF G20 Camcorder ) and Id bet superior glass. So I agree pricing wise, if it rolls at the same price as the Canon, I think that Canon will eat its lunch.

Canon U.S.A. : Consumer & Home Office : VIXIA HF G20 (http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/camcorders/consumer_camcorders/vixia_hf_g20)

I think G20 will not equal the low light performance of the X920 BSI backside illumination 3MOS chips which claim 50% noise reduction, fast Leica f/1.5 lens. Also 5 axis optical stabilizer, not to mention AVCHD 2.0 with 1920x1080/60p. The Canon will not be able to equal the resolution either with its single cmos chip and RGB filter.

Tom hit the nail on the head. The Panny will have 1000 TV lines resolution, but I bet the Canon won't.

Hi

I think G20 will not equal the low light performance of the X920 BSI backside illumination 3MOS chips which claim 50% noise reduction, fast Leica f/1.5 lens. Also 5 axis optical stabilizer, not to mention AVCHD 2.0 with 1920x1080/60p. The Canon will not be able to equal the resolution either with its single cmos chip and RGB filter.

Seems Panasonic are giving us little extra and I'm sceptical of the noise reduction claims, their PR have made these claims on each new model and it's never been seen in the real world!

Still the sensors are larger and back lit, but then carry more pixels, so each pixel is smaller so has less light gathering ability and so more noise in low light. I wouldn't be surprised if noise results are very similar in this camcorder to the last model. It is still the numbers game with pixels.

We also still have a fan and I guess the same noise issues if using the internal mic, so nothing new in the LSI department, still the same hot old chip.

Also disappointed Panasonic haven't given us higher recording rates like Canon, which would make a bigger difference than any other change possible, however that probably comes down to these camcorders having the same LSI as previous models which just isn't capable of doing it.

Their PR also allude to the camcorder being Ultra HD as this is the latest buzz word with "equivalent to four times the pixel count of Full-HD" in their blurb to trick those new to this hobby, of course it doesn't matter how many pixels are on the sensor we still get 1920x1080, but I guess that is why they are packing so many pixels so they could boast such things, and then had to go with a back lit sensor to keep the noise levels the same, sorry I mean provide another 50% reduction on previous models.

Really want a reason to get a new camcorder from Panasonic, but two years on the trot, they've really done nothing interesting.

Regards

Phil

No, I think it's likely they trumped Canon with the X920 model, 4k pixel shift ad hype aside. The noise reduction in my observation of the AC90 is real and it is large. That said, there does not appear to be a big increase in light sensitivity, but there is a very prominent reduction in chroma noise with the new bsi chips that makes for an exceptionally clean image at 21db, and still very good at 30db. The advantage is you can use more gain cleanly, and the lens itself is 1/3 stop faster. The photo site count and size is not as large as you are probably thinking, as Panasonic totals the count from 3 sensors for 8,040k , but it is 2.2 mp effective or 2.6 mp gross count per R,G,B..

To me, there seems to be a huge hole tween 1-2k pricing, but maybe there's no market there?

The Pana ac90 seems like a steal for $1849 (B&H price), but I'd like to see a stripped down consumer version for $1299 or so but I dunno what they could strip out to make it profitable for them.:-(

I was assuming the AC90 shared the sensor with the X920 since the lens focal length is the same, but per the specs it does not. The sensor is actually much larger in the X920 (1/2.3 in) but it is under-utilized. The net result is the photosite size is 2.0 micron for the X920, 3.6 micron for the G20. The question that can't be answered, is how much of the G20's surface area is taken up by light blocking circuity? We know that 100% of the surface area is available to gather light on the X920's bsi sensors, as well as not having to be peek through an RGB filter which loses resolution. We'll just have to wait for the test to see which is the most sensitive, but I have seen the noise reduction attributable to bsi sensors in the AC90 and it is no exaggeration.

Is there a webpage with TM900, X900 and X920 specs for quick comparison of those cameras?

Perhaps I must have somehow skipped this particular info while reading the specs but can anyone show me where it talks about the 24p mode? I just want to know if it's still within a 60i stream or is it finally native 24p from the very beginning?


With the way Panasonic is mentioning the specs for the X920, it makes it a bit confusing to people. "1/2.3" BSI MOS Sensor x 3" "38.28 megapixels (12.76 megapixels x 3 )" I mean for your average person, that means each chip is 1/2.3" when I really don't think that's accurate. Panasonic needs to be more clear with the specs.

I think it is probably a single 1/2.3 inch chip, 12.76 mp, oriented vertically, divided into thirds top to bottom by the prism, and an effective 16:9 aspect ratio. If so, the math works out for 2 micron spacing of the photo sites. (Or the information is just flat out wrong.) The AC90 with (3) 1/4.7 inch chips and the same lens focal length works out to 2.2 micron spacing of the photo sites.

So, this means that the ac90 and x900 will provide similar pic quality but the ac90 has a lot more features?

Hi

It is odd as Panasonic haven't produced their own BSI sensors yet, they prefer another technology.

The V700 has a single 2.33" sensor so perhaps moving to 1/2.3" on the top models shouldn't be a surprise., I'm not sure how Panasonic could use a single 1/2.3" sensor and split the image into 3 across that same sensor and claim 3 MOS. I know their marketing spin is prone to over exaggeration but surely claiming 3 MOS when you just have a single MOS with an image split into 3 across the same sensor is too much of an untruth for even the most enthusiastic marketing department? Also this would barely be an improvement over typical single sensor camcorders.

Hopefully reviews will show this camcorder to be much better in the sensitivity and picture quality than their last two models which have really not been much different from each other in the picture quality/noise area.

Still it would have been nice to have the better images captured with less compression, however for that would have needed some serious R&D into improving the rather hot LSI I'm guessing. I doubt this LSI will change now in Panasonic HD camcorders as R&D will be going into 4K.

Regards

Phil

The B&H listing says the X920 has three 1/2" 3MOS sensors with BSI.

Here's more info on the chips:
3MOS System Pro | HD Camcorder | Panasonic Global (http://panasonic.net/avc/camcorder/features/3mos/)
[NEW] Panasonic Camcorder HC-X920 Introduction & Shooting Sample Video - YouTube
Still sounds like 3 individual chips.

I agree, pretty clear it is 3 individual chips. Nice video too.

"If" it really is that size than a much smaller portion of the chips are being used for video. That post that I linked to a while back mentioned that Panasonic could have been doing the same thing to the AC90 by saying 1/2.3" but was only revealing the size of the video portion in their description while for the X920, they are revealing the total size of the chip. That can be misleading to people just looking at the total size. Basically the size of the video portion of the chips that are in the X900, AC90 and the X9200 are probably all about the same because of the lens specs.

The post was last month and it's starting to sound more credible now that Panasonic is using the 1/2.3 specs for the X920.

Yes I mentioned the chip could be underutilized but there is another possibility. It's been assumed the lens is the same as the ac90 because they share the same focal length, diameter and f/stop, but they could differ in the magnification at the (rear) element, in order to paint the entire 1/2.3" chip area with light. If so, the expected advantage of more surface area being covered by light is negated by the stretching of the exit pupil image, yet the expected disadvantage to small photo sites is offset by the fact that there are more of them being painted with light. In the end, it's the lens diameter that is responsible for collecting light and has the most impact on sensitivity.

Also fair to speculate Panasonic have used a 4k sensor, and the x920 is a transitional camera. Panasonic makes reference to 4k2k technology which could be construed to be the 1/2 pixel shift of the green sensor, or the inclusion of the 4k sensor.

Here's a 4K version of the AC90.
CES 2013: Panasonic Shows 4K Prosumer Camcoder Camera Prototype with Largest 4K OLED Display - YouTube

It could be using the same kind of chips as the AC90 and X920.


Here's another piece of info that you might be able to crack.

This is also in the X920 specs.
Motion Image 8.49 megapixels (2.83 megapixels x 3) [16:9]


I wonder if someone from Panasonic will ever be willing to comment.

Paul, I think you found the smoking gun, 3 x 2.83 mp effective pixels. Then together with the Crystal Pro II engine processing 4k through pixel shift, can only mean that a small portion of the 1/2.3" chip is used, approx equal to the area of the ac90 chips, 2.0 micron spacing for the X920, 2.2 micron spacing for the AC90.

The sample video does look very nice. I wonder if there is an improvement in dynamic range over the TM700 and TM900.

Whoa, a 4K consumer prototype from Panasonic? That makes Panny, Sony and JVC.

Who still thinks 4K won't be the norm in the near future? I'll bet it's coming a lot faster than most think.

Post deleted by author.

Anyone know the release date for the 920?

I just bought the predecessor to the HC-X920, the X900. I don't really need the built-in Wi-Fi that the 920 offers, and I'm not sure if the BSI implementation will make a marked difference in image quality sufficient to justify spending the extra money. Besides, the X900 is on for a really good price right now ($619.00).

Hi, Steve, I am about to pull the trigger on an X900. Where are you seeing it for $619? Thanks.

Still not many user reviews from the X920. It's look like a very good low light performer. Anyone tested this one against the bigger AG-AC90 in low light?

I’m curious myself how this stacks up against the Canon HF G10/20. I’m wavering a bit in my Canon Fanboy status. I’ve been really impressed with my Panny Plasma, Blu-ray, DVD players for value vs. performance. Not that it equates to quality in their cameras, but I keep hearing so much buzz over their GH2/3.

Hi Jason -

Here is the slashcam side by side of the analogous European models, the X929 (http://www.amazon.de/Panasonic-HC-X929EG-K-3D-Camcorder-Megapixel-Touchscreen/dp/B00BFRNSHO/?tag=hybrcamerev02-21) and G25 (http://www.amazon.de/Canon-HD-Camcorder-Megapixel-Touchscreen-bildstabilisiert/dp/B00AYGBI74/?tag=hybrcamerev02-21):

HD camcorder reviews/tests and comparison of Panasonic HC-X929 and Canon HF G25 Best values highlighted sorted by score (http://camcorder-test.slashcam.com/compare-183b69af2c44c5537a1d6a62d342b492.html)

Looking at the side-by-side, the $898 (as of this post) X920 (http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-HC-X920-Ready-Digital-Camcorder/dp/B00AW54Z7C/?tag=battleforthew-20) has a higher max bit rate (28mbps) than the 24mbps of the $999 (backordered from Amazon at this price) HF G20 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00AWZFHG0/sr=1-1/qid=1371217299/ref=olp_tab_new?ie=UTF8&colid=&coliid=&condition=new&me=&qid=1371217299?tag=battleforthew-20). And the X920 (http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-HC-X920-Ready-Digital-Camcorder/dp/B00AW54Z7C/?tag=battleforthew-20) has a larger capacity stock battery too (1250mah vs 850mah).

On the other hand, the HF G20 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00AWZFHG0/sr=1-1/qid=1371217299/ref=olp_tab_new?ie=UTF8&colid=&coliid=&condition=new&me=&qid=1371217299?tag=battleforthew-20) has pro features such as color bars, a LANC port and cinegammas.

Based on the slashcam test, I think the X920 (http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-HC-X920-Ready-Digital-Camcorder/dp/B00AW54Z7C/?tag=battleforthew-20)'s 12 lux low light performance is marginally better. - plus the 60p frame rate and saving $100 are both important considerations for me.

It's a tough call, but if I was upgrading from my TM900 (http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-HDC-TM900K-Camcorder-Internal-Memory/dp/B004I43MJU/?tag=battleforthew-20), I'd probably go with the X920 (http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-HC-X920-Ready-Digital-Camcorder/dp/B00AW54Z7C/?tag=battleforthew-20).

Cheers,

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution (http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com)

Lanc port is a nice thing to have; even with my super cheapo Lanc controller – will check out those comparisons though. Thanks!

I just ordered an X920 from B&H at their current $900+/- price yesterday, after looking into it, as well as the PJ710V, G20, and PX100.

I discounted the JVC pretty fast, and then the Canon for lack of 60p mode. That left the Sony and the Panasonic. The specs for the Panasonic have it with an f/1.5-2.8 vs f/1.8-3.4 lens. The specs also show lux of 1.6 for the x920, and 3 for the 710V, both at 1/30 sec shutter of course.

I figured for roughly the same price, the Panasonic would give me 3 chips vs 1, better low light performance, much better at the tele end due to the aperture rating, but then I saw this YouTube comparison today.

Sony HDR-PJ780 vs Panasonic HC-X920 Night / Low Light Footage - YouTube

You can imagine my dismay when the Sony footage shows significantly better low light imaging than the Panasonic! Also, I see no apparent picture quality advantage with 3 chips, in fact, the Sony seems to look sharper, and the Panasonic video seems to have some sort of wavering in details.

The Sony is on sale until tomorrow for only about $70 more than what I paid for the x920. Should I buy the Sony and return the Panasonic when it arrives, or should there be some "gain-up" DNR and telephoto aperture advantages that there are currently no side by side comparison videos of that would still make the Panasonic a better bet for 100% night use?

Paul

Hi Paul and welcome to DVInfo.

Tricky question to answer and in truth only you can decide what to do. I often agonise for weeks over any camera purchases.

I will say that I have a TM900 (about 2 models back) and it's proved to be a superbly useful cam. Razor sharp and the 1080p50/60 is superb. This latest Panasonic model has a number of improvements over mine for sure.

I will say the mics on the TM900 are VERY susceptible wind noise, even in the slightest breeze. Seems that is still a problem for the X920 with the comparison video you posted above - the Sony PJ780 shots had much better/useable ambient audio in those riverside shot comparisons.

Maybe this latest Sony has the edge in some picture quality aspects versus the X920 too, I could not say for sure (I liked each cams results for different reasons). Any (picture quality) differences between these two cams are going to be minor/really only observable to pixel peepers, as you see above.

What's more important is to choose something that feels right for you, learn it's menu and characteristics/weaknesses/strengths inside out, and then shoot lots of stuff with it - and enjoy it!

The technical skills and creativity of the film maker/editor are what's really important. Either of these cams will produce a picture quality that just 10 years ago, maybe less, would have been undreamt of, even in a cam costing more than my house is worth!

Whatever you decide, once you have, don't forget to let us know how it works out - and good luck!

Well, I found the evidence too compelling to ignore, and went ahead and ordered the Sony. So, on Tuesday, the Panasonic will arrive, followed by the Sony on Wednesday. Does anyone know B&H's return policy? I am considering testing both cameras side by side and returning the loser.

If B&H will take an opened return, I would be happy to do a full gamut of tests on the Panasonic, even comparing it to my Panasonic SPX800 P2 broadcast camera. If anyone has any specific tests they would like to see done, please let me know and I will try to provide them. YouTube and/or full quality test files can be provided as well.

Paul

Both of my cameras finally arrived, and the chose of which one to keep was easy. See below for comparison still captures of the Panasonic x920 left, and Sony PJ710v right.

http://i41.tinypic.com/o9ic13.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/2larlz4.jpg

My primary concern was low light, followed by easy to access/use manual controls, but after seeing the HORRIFIC chromatic aberration of the Sony's Leica lens, I had no choice but to pack it up and ship it back to B&H. I don't know if this is just the quality of the product, or if I got a defective unit, but there was no way I was choosing the Sony. The Sony also has a red/purple tint in the day, and an orange hue at night. As for low light ability, they are roughly even, with the Panasonic going blurry and smearing, and the Sony adding sharp blue sparkling noise. The Sony lens is noticeably wider though. The larger diameter iris of the Panasonic is evident by the added depth of field observable in the car antenna in the foreground. The Sony can do 1/8th sec shutter speed though, which I really wanted, but it's manual controls were a real PITA to access and use. The Panasonic is much more professionally oriented, with db rated gain display, razor thin zebra as opposed to huge thick diagonal stripes in the Sony, and lager easier to select menu buttons and physical controls. The Panasonic is as simple to use as a 57 Chevy. The Sony is like trying to manipulate a modified Nissan GT-R's ECM using a code scanner!

Good info - and I'm sure very useful to those trying to decide between these two. Thanks for posting.

Wanted to post an update to my x920. The manual control dial has become extremely stiff, requiring wrapping several fingers around it to turn it. I use this dial 99% of the time to adjust the gain for my night shooting, and with the force needed, I might as well be torquing a lug nut on the side of the camera, the whole thing wiggles. I used to be able to support the lower left side of the camera with my left hand, and simply turn the ring with my index finger, very smooth and easy.

Unfortunately, Panasonic only offers a 90 day warranty on labor, so I am stuck with this turd now........ugh. Other than the tight ring, I LOVE the camera still, it's video airs every morning on the news.

For anyone interested, I shot a two camera X920 vs my Panasonic HDC27H DVCPRO HD Varicam, just to see how they look side by side, or in this case, one on top of the other! The HDC27H had a standard definition Canon J11x4.5 lens attached, and was shooting in 720p60. The X920 was set to 1080p60. The X920 as well as the Varicam were both set to manual modes, and white balanced off of the same white paper. For the wide angle shots, the X920 was a full wide, and the Canon J11 was just under 8mm. For the telephoto stuff, I tried to match the X920 to the J11's maximum 50mm. Since YouTube and Vimeo don't do 60fps, I put all the footage into a 1080p60 timeline, and exported it as 1080p30 26Mbps AVC h264, which is what I uploaded to YouTube to produce the video below.

I have been so pleased with my little X920, that I am upgrading to a new Sony AX100, with a 1" 4K sensor, using a 50/60Mbps XAVC S h264 codec. The only thing I don't like about the little cameras is loosing real wide angle ability, as I cannot find any really descent wide angle converters that don't look like garbage, at any price!

Panasonic HC-X920 vs AJ-HDC27H Varicam - YouTube

Anyone know if you can do clean HDMI out to a computer for use in live streaming? Would like to have something better than web cam, and less than a pro camera like the GH3 or 4. It appears from the specs it can do that.

Yes, this camera has CLEAN HDMI output. In fact, I used this camera for LIVE on air television broadcasts feeding through a TVU backpack. :-)

The only thing to keep in mind is that the words RECORD and PAUSE will briefly appear on the HDMI signal after you press the record button.....not a major issue.

Paul;

My camcorder is HCX920P
I"m having a problem with the computer not reading my card. It is a PNY 64GB Elite performance, with 10 in a circle and a 1 in a U. it says 90MB/S 14.5 hours HD video I. I've taken video with the camera and played it back, but when I put it in the USB hold and place it in the USB port, the computer wont recognize it, and if I try to format it with the computer, it tells me that it is unrecognizable. The card was formated with the camcorder.

Hello guys.

I have recently purchased Panasonic x920, encouraged by online tests and reviews, but it seems that I might have done a stupid thing...

The main thing for me is to record best low light clips possible.
Everywhere on the internet I could find opinions that x920 is the best in this price range.
In a daylight all the clips are sharp and no complains in this area but I get a horrible noise and grain in low light!


I'd like to present to you some of the samples, they are stored on my Google Drive, all original MTS, max 1min..

All shot in artificial low light, indoors, 1080/50p (Europe), always automatic settings except for one clip with manual focus, all shot on a tripod.
File names should be pretty self-explanatory, just one thing - in terms of light: 3 - strongest, 0 - weakest.
Please disregard audio - Kill Bill was in the background ;)
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B3nVSIbudsTjc1Azalo1czdFSHc&usp=drive_web


Can you please tell me if anything can be done?
Can I adjust any settings in manual mode to get better low light picture quality?
If so, could you please advice which settings to use?



Also please find attached MediaInfo properties of the first clip:
Video
ID/String : 4113 (0x1011)
MenuID/String : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format_Profile : High@L4.2
Format_Settings_CABAC/String : Tak
Format_Settings_RefFrames/String : 2 frames
Format_Settings_GOP : M=3, N=24
CodecID : 27
Duration/String : 58s 40ms
BitRate_Mode/String : Variable
BitRate/String : 23,7 Mb/s
BitRate_Maximum/String : 25,0 Mb/s
Width/String : 1.920 pixels
Height/String : 1.080 pixels
DisplayAspectRatio/String : 16:9
FrameRate/String : 50,000 kl/s
ColorSpace : YUV
ChromaSubsampling : 4:2:0
BitDepth/String : 8 bits
ScanType/String : Progressive
Bits-(Pixel*Frame) : 0.228
StreamSize/String : 164 MB (94%)

Audio
ID/String : 4352 (0x1100)
MenuID/String : 1 (0x1)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Format_Settings_ModeExtension : CM (complete main)
Format_Settings_Endianness : Big
CodecID : 129
Duration/String : 58s 80ms
BitRate_Mode/String : Constant
BitRate/String : 384 Kb/s
Channel(s)/String : 2 channels
ChannelPositions : Front: L R
SamplingRate/String : 48,0 KHz
BitDepth/String : 16 bits
Video_Delay/String : -40ms
StreamSize/String : 2,66 MB (2%)

Text
ID/String : 4608 (0x1200)
MenuID/String : 1 (0x1)
Format : PGS
CodecID : 144
Duration/String : 57s 536ms
Video_Delay/String : -40ms

That looks like pretty challenging lighting. If you were on full auto then the camera was probably doing the best it can. But I can think of two things you might try:

The camera has an iA button (for Intelligent Auto) that lets you choose shooting presets. It has a "Low Light" preset that might give better results.

If you don't need the 50p when shooting low light, then you might try switching the record mode to 50i, in the highest quality setting. (50p gives better results under most circumstances, so be sure to switch it back.) There should be an advanced manual on the CD that explains switching the record modes.

Good luck.

Hello Kris.

Thanks for your reply.
I tried to set up x920 your way but unfortunatelly it didn't give any significant improvement.

I tried iA, iA with nigh mode, iA+ with some small adjustments, manual with some more adjustments and night mode. Nothing that would convince me to keep this camcorder...


So how about I tried some decent DSLR?
Do you think that I might get a better result, considering I would use a good lens?