Glad to see this new forum, great content. I've been looking at many cameras over the past year to upgrade to, and this one seems to fit my needs. I will be making a large leap in my shooting technology - from a Sony FX-1. So, a couple questions:

1. I keep reading about no ND Filters, and how bad that is. Can someone please explain the reason this is such a bad thing? With my FX-1, it does have the ND Filters, and the camera automatically tells me when to use ND1 or ND2, and I do it! That is my knowledge of this. So if I don't have the ND Filters automatically on my new camera, which one's do you guys use? There are tons of choices on B&H, I guess I need one that is adjustable? With the adjustable kind, does the EA50 automatically tells you what setting to use on the filter, like the FX1?

2. There are so many shooting settings listed for this cam, like 24, 30, 60 fps, different HD resolutions, etc. Now, I simply put a tape in my FX1 and shoot in HD. I shoot corporate video mostly, just looking for initial settings I should use as I learn the cam.

3. As stated, I shoot on tape. So now need to purchase some cards to record on. Please let me know what works best with least amount of problems. I will spend extra to get best results on these. Also if the flash recorder is worth the money in your opinions.

Rick,

I am just going to touch on this and let other guys with more experience with this camera expand on it.

1. Not having ND filters does not mean you will not be able to shoot in sun light. It means you will have limited control of setting the exact shutter speed and aperture you may want to use for the controlled effect you may desire. In sunlight without ND filters you will be limited to small aperture and fast shutter speeds. Adjustable ND filters or not is personal preference. The camera will not tell you when you need them. You will need to understand the effects of shutter speed and aperture.

2. That is an area of great study and circumstance. They are all there for a reason but it is beyond me to put it in a paragraph. If your post system is already handling very large data files you could learn just a couple of the common ones and still shoot "HD".

3. I do not buy cheap cards. I think I just paid $25 apiece for Lexar 10x 32 gb cards. I also do not like the really high capacity cards. I would rather change cards more often than risk hours and hours of footage on a large card failure. The bigger the card, the more to loose. Card failures are rare. I think the Sony 128gb flash drive is way over priced. It's main benefit is simultaneous back up recording. Never a bad idea. You can also do that with the new mirroring cards.

I also do a lot of corporate video. I believe this camera is a good choice for that.

Steve

First the cards.Cards are not as costly as they used to be and overall less than tapes. How do I get that? Well, a Sandisk 32gig, class 10 card which has a 45mbps speed according to it's label, will hold 170 minutes or 2 hours and 50 minutes of content recorded at 24mbps costs $36.00 at B&H. That would be almost 3 tapes. Even at $2.00 each that's $6.00 for media. Now extrapolate that out for your planned year of work. I generally go thru about 200 tapes a year give or take few. Figure the savings of buying 4 32gig cards that can be re-used over and over vs. tapes that are used once. (at least I do. I never re-use a tape). Anyway as for the name brand of cards, I have heard nothing at all bad about the Sandisk. I can't speak for the other brands but I will be getting those.

As for the lack of ND filters, I too had a bit of concern about that but after going thru the manual and seeing the user assignable buttons, which can be preset to ISO, and the placement of the iris button, it will bring me back to the old days of film still photography when you needed to change settings to keep from getting blown out.
Chris Harding and Noa Put have the camera and have posted some great information about using the camera in both outside conditions and changing light conditions. They have taken away MY worries about not having ND filters.
I think the lack of NDs is an oversite but I understand why they didn't put them on. Keep in mind also that you can buy NDs and some are variable although none go to 0. The lowest I saw was a .5. In a perfect world....;-)

Hi Rick

I have shot in bright sun in Australia and the camera seems to handle bright light with no issues at all. By all means use either a standard or variable good quality ND filter if you are shooting on a white beach in the Bahamas or white snow up North but it does handle normal bright sun without an ND ..of course at F16 you won't get any shallow DOF effects!!

Based on doing just one wedding per weekend and 3 or 4 commercial shoots during the week I figured out that by switching from MiniDV to Card I was saving myself at least $1000 a year...that is based on the fact that I use the tapes just once (and use decent tapes) and also allows me to charge all my cards every six months. Go figure??? Get decent brand names not el-cheapos from eBay....the only poor performance I have had was from expensive SanDisk Xtreme 45 mbps cards that started breaking down and giving me the odd weird frames with damaged data after 4 months use so I stick with Transcend 16GB Class 6 and they have never let me down.

I shoot 90% of my footage in simple, good ole 1920x1080 50i and never have an issue!!

You should love the camera ...it really has all the features I needed!!

Chris

Chris, I actually meant to say Transend but had been looking at the Sandisk and they stuck in my head. I remember something you posted a while ago about the Sandisck cards.
I'm at the point that I'm already on the cruise mentally and can't even remember my name these days.
O|O
/--\

Only a few day left to go, good buddy and you can relax!

I was under the impression that Sandisk were way superior to Transcend but I have now had problems with the 45mbps Xtreem card and get artifacts in some footage ...the Transcends never gave me any issues so I'm back with them.

Chris

one thing that you need to be aware of with this new camera is that your computer needs to be up to the task of handling AVCHD files, i know some people making the transition from tape to cards found that their hardware wasn't up to it, so it's something else to consider.

I use a mix of Sony Memory Stick (dont know if they work in this cam), Transcend, Sandisk and AData mostly 16 and 32 Gb.

I've been looking at this camera myself but the issue of the ND filters is a bit off-putting, I have a NX5 that has 3 ND filters which i use, so i'm waiting to see if people find that this doesn't drag it down.


Rob

Hi Rob

The Sony Media will work of course as well as the new mirroring memory stick but that seems a little pricey.

For Sony AVCHD You really need an absolute minimum of an i7 2600 processor and at least 8GB ram otherwise renders will take ages and previews will just stutter!! I think a lot of consumer cam owners hit a brick wall when they discovered that their new computer upgrade was going to cost them more than their dinky new toy!!

Chris

2. There are so many shooting settings listed for this cam, like 24, 30, 60 fps, different HD resolutions, etc. Now, I simply put a tape in my FX1 and shoot in HD. I shoot corporate video mostly, just looking for initial settings I should use as I learn the cam.

NXCAM cameras like the EA50 have a video mode called HD FX (24mbps) 1920x1080/60i which is very similar to the HD mode on the FX1. I would suggest starting with this setting.

I agree with Eric. Since the FX1 was most likely shooting 60i. 24p is a very filmic look and 30 doesn't translate well imo to the eye. I would start with the FX setting like Eric saaid and take it from there. However you might find 21 or even 17 will do the job for you. For that, you gotta play with the camera.

I also agree with Chris. I just upgraded my machine to handle the AVCHD and I know of a bunch of people that haven't and are banging their heads against the wall. Make sure your machine can handle it.

My 2 cents:


1. I keep reading about no ND Filters, and how bad that is.

For me it's an issue, I will be buying a nd filter soon but need to see what works best with all my lenzes, this camera will not tell you when to use a ND, this means you need to understand how a ND filter can affect your image and when to use it. Basically you only would use a nd filter outside when the camera cannot handle the incoming light, this means it has to almost completely close it's iris to compensate which can lead to diffraction (unsharp footage). The ND filter allows you to open op the iris more and keep the shutter at a fixed value like 1/50. If you don't have a ND filter the only option is to increase the shutter which becomes a problem if you have a lot of moving objects as their motion will become unnatural (some kind of saving private ryan kind of effect.)



2. There are so many shooting settings listed for this cam, like 24, 30, 60 fps, different HD resolutions

What I can reccomend is to just shoot with different framerates and compare, if you are doing fast action sport then 60p for sure, otherwise you could use all 3, just use them and see what you like best or what translates best to dvd and/blueray for you



3. As stated, I shoot on tape. So now need to purchase some cards to record on. Please let me know what works best with least amount of problems.

Sony has new mirroring cards that record to 2 different chips on one card which seems to be the safest recording medium for this camera, not sure if the camera can record to the fmu and to a sd card simultaneously but if it could that would also be a safe option. I just bhought a 64gb sdxc sandisc card, they are quite cheap now, mine is a class 10 but only 30mbs which makes it even more cheaper and it's plenty fast for the camera.

What has been reccomended here about handling avchd on a pc is an important remark, I have a I7 950 with 12gb memory that can handle up to 4 streams of avchd in realtime in a multicam sequence in Edius 6.5, I did have a q6600 processor with 4gb of memory and it could just handle 1 stream in realtime so you need quite a bit more processing power if you are used to HDV, my old q6600 handled HDV with ease.

Noa what is your thinking regarding an ND filter - I'm leaning towards a good variable - either the Genus Eclipse fader @ $136 or the Lightcraft @ $98

I would imagine at these prices the glass is pretty good - better than say the Hama @ $20 but not as good as Tiffen @ $160 or the Heliopan that gets a great review from Philip Bloom but is $330!

Pete

I don't have that much experience with nd filters, I have a 100 dollar filter here but it seems to impact the image quality on my samyang lenzes, I was thinking on getting such a rubber lenshood to attach a variable nd filter but I"m not sure if it will cause vignetting. This is the cheapest solution because a mattebox just increases the size and wheight and it'snot cheap either as you need to get extra rails as well. Then I rather get a filter that would fit my largest lens and get some step down ring to make it fit all other lenzes.

I also think those expensive filters are good value, if you go for a cheaper one and if it would have an effect on the image in any way that's a step back. I will have to read up on user reviews about those expensive filter but most probably will be getting one of these as there must be a reason why they are 3 times the price as regular filters, or maybe a cheaper one if I know for sure it's a good one :). The Fader ND Digi Pro-HD also comes to my mind when thinking of possible filters.

Thanks for all the great responses. Really learning a ton with this forum. I did spend some money last year building a new PC, and my new rig will be able to handle this cam. Now almost have the funds available to make the leap.

Rick,

Three words................go for it!!!

Fantastic video.

Looks spot on.

I desperately want to buy this and have actually put money aside. But I fear either Sony will release a refined version i.e. EA70 like they did with the VG10 / VG20.

OR

I want the EA50k the bare bones version to arrive in Europe. So I can buy it and use my existing E mount lenses which I own with my VG20.

What to do, what to do ...

But I fear either Sony will release a refined version i.e. EA70 like they did with the VG10 / VG20.

I heared there will be a 4:4:4 8k sony nex ea version released in many years so maybe it would be better to wait for that? Just kidding :) There will always be something better around the corner and each new model is still not perfect so by then you might still have doubts buying it.

If you want better videoquality, get the fs100, if you can't afford it, get the ea50 and work around it's shortcomings. That's what many have been doing with the 5DII and just look what great video's are out there done with this camera but not every one which again shows it is the guy behind the camera that makes the difference.

Couldn't agree with you more.

This is why I desperately want the bare bones version. I can't justify spending nearly £3000 when a used FS100 can be had for this much on ebay.

However, if I could may be get a EA50 around the £2000 mark, then I would buy it. It's basically what I already have (VG20) but in a better body.

Atleast with a FS100, I know I have bought myself a new body aswell as better video quality.

That I can understand that you want the body only which would save you quite a lot if you already have the lenzes, Is Sony not providing this camera as body only?

James,

We all ask ourselves how soon is the upgraded version coming? For me, I do not worry about it too much. But one thing I do like to do to combat that is buy new releases. This is that chance. Look how few of us on this forum have the camera in hand. I know that is not scientific and I know only a small percentage of readers even post but right now I think there are only 7 of us actively posting our experiences with this new camera. I buy and never look back.

Steve

Hi Steve

Absolutely! There are times where you really just need to be impulsive and either say yes or no..apart from the redundancy factor, you might also hesitate as to whether the price might get better or worse or if the camera might have an annoying condition that might not suit you. I don't think there are any perfect cameras out there so there will always be workarounds you have to contend with.

I bought the EA-50 because I liked the form factor mainly..my Panasonics so a really good job and they are a lot cheaper too (they also have workarounds especially in low light) However the main thing with the Sony is that it's easier to carry and use and it's also lighter so for an old guy like me that was enough to decide on one. So far I have only bought one and I'm sharing jobs with the two Pannys as I know they work well... later I might dump the Pannys and get a second Sony.

The only real way you will ever know if it was a good decision is to actually get one...at the very worst you could always sell it and revert back to what you had before.

Chris

I buy and never look back.

Same here, this is the first time I buy a model where there was hardly no user feedback to be found about but the first images I did see appear, like the review from Alistar Chapman and the "Pepephon" video on vimeo did give me more confidence the camera would produce images I would be happy with.
So I took the plunge and then just try to make the best of it.

Might be a little bit off the topic from what I originally posted,, but camera related. I edit in Premiere Pro 6.0, and currently shoot on HD tapes on my FX-1. Then capure in HD, edit in HD, no problems. However, sometimes I have to deliver final product on SD DVD'S. This is a MAJOR problem - converting HD to SD for DVD delivery really degrades the quality. There are many posts on various message boards about this issue, with no real solution. Fields, Progressive, Interlaced, etc. all come into play, way over my head. There is a manual workaround process floating around with scripts, but cannot believe this is neccessary.

My question in regards to the EA50 - is there a shooting setting on the EA50 that will allow me to shoot in HD, edit in HD, and then be able to convert to SD without this quality degrade issue?

If you transcode from HD to SD there is always image degradation and it doesn't matter which camera you would use, question is how much degradation you have. Can you post a frame grab showing the extent of the problem and can you explain your workflow?

Hi Rick

There are many downconvert methods using various NLE's but most involve multiple renders and are extremely time consuming. From a business POV I cannot spend hours and hours squeezing that tiny bit of extra quality that the client won't see anyway!!
I settled for shooting in 50i and then in Sony Vegas I simply render down to MPEG2 for the DVD...for me this gives better results than shooting in SD but I haven't yet tried the Sony. I have watched my own wedding DVD's on client's huge screen TV's and they look awesome even though they are SD!!

We tend to get way to technical about quality that the client will seldom see (and often cannot even see) If they want SD they must expect a loss but none would even notice the small res loss!!!

Chris

This isn't the typical lower quality of an SD image compared to a HD image. I used to just shoot and edit in SD only and compared those DVD's to my new one, and it is much lower quality than those SD edited DVD's. It is really noticeable on graphics, like a credit roll. Also, same everything on preparing the DVD as far as video bitrate, so that is not the issue.

It is really a hassle, and is an issue that has been brought up numerous times. Summary is Premiere, Final Cut, etc. all do a poor job on the downconversion to DVD. I'm just wondering if the newer cameras shoot differently than my FX-1, as far as handling this issue. Maybe it is a setting on the camera as far as interlaced or progressive, 1280 or 1440, etc.?

I'm not at the office right now to post an image, but this link shows exactly what the issue is, with some frame grabs. This is a couple years old, but problem still occurs in Premiere 6.0.

HD to SD DVD – Best Methods | Precomposed | Blu-Ray and DVD Authoring and Packaging Solutions (http://www.precomposed.com/blog/2009/07/hd-to-sd-dvd-best-methods/)

Rick downscaling method used and the data rate are really important. I use TMPGenc to do the downscaling and encoding for DVD. This is the current version The Best Software Encoder | TMPGEnc Video Mastering Works 5 Product Overview (http://tmpgenc.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/tvmw5.html). I edit in Edius export a HQ file then get TMPGenc to downscale and encode for SD DVD since all my project are around 2 hours in length I always use 2 pass VBR. Noticably better picture quality than Vegas or CS6 encode which I also have on the PC. Anton's site has some really useful tutorials mainly for Edius but applicable to other uses TmpgEnc Video Mastering Works 5 Tutorial for downscaling EDIUS HD to SD (http://www.videoproductions.com.au/html/t5-hd-sd.html) as although this example uses a Edius HQ file it could be any HD file really.

Ron Evans

I used to just shoot and edit in SD only and compared those DVD's to my new one, and it is much lower quality than those SD edited DVD's.

Sharp HD images are more difficult to downconvert to SD than blurry ones, however, HD images with artificial detail caused by aliasing are very difficult to downconvert to SD.

Any camera setting that reduces aliasing will make the footage easier to downconvert. Since interlaced footage often has more aliasing, shooting in 1280x720p60 often helps. Also try adjusting sharpness, coring and detail settings to reduce aliasing.

The secret behind Dan Isaacs HD to SD Best Methods is an algorithm that turns the aliasing present in interlaced HD video into clean progressive video which can then be converted to high-quality interlaced SD video. This technique, based on neural networks, yields noticably better results than the methods used by many commerical NLEs.

A good HD to SD workflow may be more important for a large-sensor camera such as the EA50 than many others. Still, once a good workflow has been figured out, it can be used over and over.

Rick,

As mentioned some of us get too technical some times. I don't believe that is your case. In a previous post I believe you stated something like "I just put HD tapes in my FX-1 and it shoots HD. The EA50 has so many formats that I do not know what to use".

At the beginning of every conversation with a client about THEIR video I ask what is it going to be used for? What format do they want it delivered on and do they want SD or HD? Just because we video guys love HD that does not mean everyone does. The answer varys from knowledgeable clients with exact broadcast standards that must be met to clients that still want a SD DVD and that is all they want. If DVDs are going to be broadly distributed that is often the way to go. Not everyone has a Blu Ray player in their living room.

If you are delivering SD DVDs and that is ALL it will ever be used for why are you shooting in HD and causing yourself all the complications. Learning your formats and shooting appropriately can save you a lot of work and grief.

Steve

Thanks for the responses. Ron, I'm gonna try TMPGenc out, sounds like it will help.

Steve - yes, I'm not too technical when it comes to this, but having to learn with all the new formats out there. The reason I would like to edit in HD rather in SD is because some of my clients want the final product online in HD, like on Vimeo or YouTube, in addition to the DVD's. Also, I like to place those videos on my demo site, and obviously would like to show off the quality in HD rather than SD,

As far as the suggestion of just shooting in SD, I could do that I guess. Question - I currently shoot in HD on my FX-1, and up to a couple months ago, downconverted the capture to SD. If I get the EA50, can I somehow shoot in HD, then downconvert before the edit? That way I have an HD quality copy of all my raw footage (like I do with my FX-1 on the HD tapes).

Hi Rick

I did a test a while back and shot in all 6 formats that my Panasonic offered and then also shot the same subject in SD (same camera) Just for fun I also took two formats (1920x1080 50i and 25P) and transcoded them to HDV MPEG2.

Now I took ALL the clips and randomly rendered them in Sony Vegas down to an SD MPEG2 clip and then dropped them onto a DVD....On an LCD TV I showed family and friends the clips and asked them to pick out what was good and what was bad ...the only one they could isolate that they felt was of lower quality was the SD file ...they certainly had no idea which format was better or worse but it did show that despite losses you still get a better SD DVD result if you edit in native format...I watched one of my weddings at a brides house (their DVD player was acting up) and the SD DVD played onto a 55" big screen TV blew me away.... Definately shoot in the cameras native format then you will have HD and SD choices...I don't think uprezzing is much of an option even if SD footage is really good!!

My renders also didn't go thru the fancy multiple render that TMPGenc has to go thru ..Just 1920x1080 on the timeline and render straight out to MPEG2 ready for a DVD...Check the quick way and the results too..it's certainly good enough for my clients so it might also surprise you??

Chris

If I get the EA50, can I somehow shoot in HD, then downconvert before the edit? That way I have an HD quality copy of all my raw footage (like I do with my FX-1 on the HD tapes).

It is very reasonable to downconvert HD to SD before editing. Then your motion graphics will be rendered in SD and won't need to be downconverted.

Early HD cameras such as the HVX200 were essentially upscaled SD cameras and worked well in SD mode. Since the EA50 has a large 16MP sensor, even if you record in SD there is significant downconverting going on in camera. As Chris observed, the in-camera downconversion to SD is not that good.

While TMPGenc doesn't employ such sophisticated algorithms as the HD to SD Best Methods link you posted earlier, it still works well. Note that many NLEs also use good downconverting algorithms when run on GPU accelerated hardware. The other advantage of TMPGenc is high-quality 2-pass DVD encoding. Two-pass encoding makes a noticeable quality improvement when fitting 2 or 3 hours of video on a single sided DVD. For programs less than an hour, there is little if any difference.