I'm looking to buy my first camera. Have £800. Looking for something filmic. Am a beginner in the technical side of filmmaking. Any suggestions?

I've researched A LOT online - the likes of the Canon Vixia range to DSLR's, such as Sony NEX VG10/20.
I am fairly new to the technical side of filmmaking (am a writer and actor). I have operated camera's in my own experiments, but haven't learnt through education or as part of a crew and certainly don't have a good grasp on how to properly work a camera/create the best shot - yet.
Initially am looking to shoot a dramatised blog and upload online, but then looking ahead will shoot film (shorts, initially) and would like a camera that has a lovely filmic look.
Any advice/suggestions would be very welcomed. Thanks.

Hi Vicki,

Welcome to DV Info Net! Is there a shop nearby where you can go and look at some of these cameras in person? Because, as I like to say often, the right camera *for you* is the one which feels best in your hands and whose workflow makes the most sense to you. There's really no one right or wrong choice; it's mostly a matter of personal preference more than anything else.

For a filmic look, DSLRs are the way to go.

That said, for DSLR video to look good, you need to be comfortable making manual settings, manually adjusting focus, and changing lenses. Most important, you need to take care to stabilize the camera on a tripod or some other device. And you need additional gear for capturing good audio.

A standard camcorder will have better image stabilization, autofocus, exposure features, and audio connections. For £800, you can easily get a good camcorder kit. But it will never deliver the filmic quality of a DSLR. Then again, a DSLR without good lenses, audio, stabilization, and operation won't look filmic either.

It probably comes down to your personal goals. If you are driven to learn film production and are willing to jury-rig and improvise to get good results, go for a DSLR and build up your kit over time. If you want results now, want an out of the box solution, and aren't interested in the technical details, get the camcorder. It really depends on how hungry you are to get filmic results.

There's no wrong choice. The most important part is to understand your true goals and choose the gear that is the best match for you.

Hi Vickie, and ditto the "Welcome Aboard." Hopefully you come back often.

Disclaimer: I'm a hobbyest so consider the source. In the past I was really into 35 mm photography and my interest waned just about the time digital came along. Digital was nice because one could rattle off lots of shots with no expense and delete the ones that weren't worth keeping and just print those that were keepers. Somehow, though, my interest just wan't there.

About three years ago I was doing a lot of investigating about buying a video camera to make sailing videos. I was talking to a friend about it and he gave me a camcorder (video camera - don't know if the "Kings English" is the same term. Since then I've been on a very steep learning curve. Very Important Note: I was on a steep learning curve before I got it, and I feel I'm still on one.

There is a LOT to learn. A Lot. It's all digital so there is the computer and software (applications), knowing how to work files (no more "just" *.jpg), audio (2/3rds of video is good Audio), lighting, story telling, and I could go on.

Since getting this "Free" camera I've upgraded from an MacBook to a much more powerful MacBook Pro (with a lot more memory), and because processing video files is very computer intensive I've got a Mac Pro so I don't melt down my laptop. Just last month I got a second Mac Pro (all my stuff is used/second hand). Starting with clean hard drives (only video files touch them!), and the newest Mac Pro (3,1) has a nice Solid State Drive (SSD), all the applications have to be loaded commensurate with their EULAs.

Since getting the "Free" camera I've invested heavily in gear (what everybody calls "the kit"). That's lighting (with stands), mics (I'm up to 6 now. Consider this a "tool box"), reflectors, backdrop system, Glide Cam (aka Steadycam, Bliackbird, etc.), wind protection for the mics (mostly Rycote, including a windshield), pre amp (for the XLR mics to the 3.5 mm mini jack on the prosumer camera), video tripod, video monopod, camera bracket (to attach mic and light to), cables, clamps, video books (a small library) .... I could go on. Another Very Important Note: the camera purchase is the proverbial tip of the iceburg.

In once sense, I'm still a "Tourist" in this hobby. The edits I've put together have been getting better but I've set the bar higher and I've got a lot more learning and work (in that order) ahead to achieve my goals.

My approach was probably very typical of someone just wanting to get started: that is, get a video camera. I knew what I wanted to make videos of but didn't know there was any difference or nuance between various end result types, to to this end, you're actually ahead of where I was. My path (probably an incorrect one) was to start at A and end at Z while your path is probably more to start at Z and figure out where to start at A, so that's good.

Buying gear (kit): for low budget or if you have more time than money, maybe consider going used if you can be assured there aren't "issues" and the price is good. Everything I've got has been used except for the video tripod and the backdrop so I've managed to really save a bundle while at the same time getting some reasonably good gear. I wouldn't have nearly the quantity I've got if I had to buy new but it took time.

PC vs Mac: Video is very application dependent. Besides the camera you'll want to look at what editing and burning applications to use and make sure they will work with the camera files. I've migrated from the PC (still have one PC for my legacy software) over to the Mac, consequently my very first videos were edited with iMovie. Since then I bought Final Cut Pro X and I've got the last iDVD for menu authoring and Toast 11 (this one was horrible due to Corel anti-support) for going to Blu-ray.

When people talk about "Workflow" it might sound easy but the more you read about "how to make the best DVD" you'll find there are lots and lots of different ways to get from Z to A. And there are nice smooth paths, bumpy and dusty dirt roads, and maybe (I've never found it) a freeway.

Reminder: I'm a hobbyest so consider the source. Keep reading and asking questions. Video production is a forever learning process.

What is a good UK used web site to go to?

Hi Vicki, buying your first video camera is like buying your first golf clubs.

Many people get out on the course and start thrashing around without taking any lessons.

Get some lessons, join a good local camera club. You could write for them and trade some acting videos then borrow some likely cams.
They'll love it, and you :)

And get a good stable tripod and mic, then you can get in front of your cam to study your technique.
See, 2 for the price of 1 :)

Cheers.

I've researched A LOT online - the likes of the Canon Vixia range to DSLR's, such as Sony NEX VG10/20.

I would suggest the VG20. Its sensor size allows reasonable control over depth of field used to direct viewer attention in narrative filmmaking. At the same time the VG20 is a video camera that avoids the complications which arrise from shooting video with a DSLR designed for still images. As mentioned in other posts, you also need accessories such as a good tripod, microphones and lighting.

...Initially am looking to shoot a dramatised blog and upload online, but then looking ahead will shoot film (shorts, initially) and would like a camera that has a lovely filmic look.
Any advice/suggestions would be very welcomed.....

It strikes me there are some very practical aspects of your situation that should feed into your choice. One is whether you are trying to do this without someone operating the camera. The next is perhaps splitting a semantic hair but if you are looking for "filmic" results, you need to consider more than just the camera. Lighting and post production tools come to mind.

In my mind the two are connected. A shallow depth of field (sDOF) will be a bear to keep in focus without an operator. Conversely, auto focus isn't a strength of cameras in the sDOF cameras you are looking at. Also, sDOF cameras in this price range typically lack focus assist features and some have low res screens so even with an operator, you'll shoot a lot of blurry video. This is frustrating when your main goal is the performance and you are missing your best ones.

The term "filmic" can have different connotations and they go beyond DOF. These include frame rate, grain and color. Some cameras such as the VG10 and 20 are criticized for their lack of ability to customize the image acquisition. Like the model T where you could have any color as long as it was black, you are left to the factory choices. Same may be true in the Vixia.

Consider how much effort you want to put into the technical side of your project vs getting your dramatic acting captured and published. Frankly, at this point, getting your content acquired relatively easily may be more important than having it look filmic..... and we haven't even touched on lighting.....

John, I had to smile at your post above, and I bet I am far from the only person here who empathised with what you said. Even as a professional photographer, I found video a far more difficult genre to get to grips with. So many codecs and frame and bit rates. Talk about a steep learning curve. And then you have sound. Way more to it than I am sure most people starting out realise.

It is really kind of nice having a medium like DVInfo where real pros with years of experience are so willing to share, and the information is solid gold. So I also hope Vicki stays with the forum, and reads all the sticky threads and FAQs, and asks questions when she has problems.

But video is much more rewarding to work with than stills IMHO, but sure as heck takes a bunch of time.

Anyway... A big thank you from me for all the info here, and questions answered.

Hi Vicki,

Welcome to DV Info Net! Is there a shop nearby where you can go and look at some of these cameras in person? Because, as I like to say often, the right camera *for you* is the one which feels best in your hands and whose workflow makes the most sense to you. There's really no one right or wrong choice; it's mostly a matter of personal preference more than anything else.

Hi Chris. Yes, to look and play in person would be best, but Somerset isn't the most affluent area for film, to say the least! Real life shops seem to be closing all the time, as well.
Allan kindly suggested joining a local camera club, which is a great idea and I will look into that, as it would be nice have a play around and learn my craft with others.

Everyone else's responses have been really interesting to read and I will have to go over them a few more times to really digest the info.

Thanks everyone for your responses - I really appreciate it. It seems the DSLR is the jumping feet first version of buying a first camera - but I'm willing to do it and to learn. I'm going to have to learn whether it's a DSLR or it's a Vixia, I'll just have to invest that much more time, blood, sweat and tears if I go with the DSLR, it seems. I'm okay with that, it's not an easy industry, is it?
If anybody could suggest any DSLR's they may have used/like, that are good for beginners - that would be great. Also, on lenses would be extremely helpful too.

RE: Lights - I've spoken with a professional lighting designer and he's given me a lot of advice, and I do own one Sony LED camera light with a diffuser sheet. Should I think about a diffuser box?

Sorry about all the questions! Thanks everyone.
Vicki

Hi John

Thanks a lot for the response. If I could ask you a question - I currently own a Macbook OS X - 10.6.8 version, so it's not advanced. I do have Final Cut Pro (left for me by the previous owner) but have never used it because my Mac couldn't cope with running it. I only have around £800 at the mo, so to upgrade my Mac would be a big chunk off of the camera.

So, if I were to continue using my current computer, I guess I should stick with a less advanced editing programme so it runs better? Which would you suggest for a Mac? I used Corel in the past (on a friends PC) and found it very easy to use, but is obviously not massively advanced with it's options (and can't be used on Mac?). But this may be okay, if I'm initially just going to be uploading a fictional blog onto youtube? I can't imagine I'd be using much post production for that. (I know that the advanced camera isn't necessary to film this kind of thing, but feel I want to make the right choice for future projects, so am willing to invest and learn how t use, in the meantime.)

Cheers John.

Vicki

Hi Vickie - I had a really long reply and hit Submit and it vaporized. Seems it didn't like that I "logged in" since I started the reply.

This one will be much shorter and, unfortunately, less informative, but I'll try.

After reading everything from your last post I might suggest this route.

For starters, so you can use your current computer and not have to buy another one, I'd go with iMovie. iMovie has a lot of capability. I've got a MacBook White 1.83 MHz with 2 GB of memory running 10.6.8 (like yours) and it runs iMovie, at least the version I have. This route will allow you to sink your hard-earned money into the "kit".

"Kit": Camera, tripod, and mic. For panning you'll need a video tripod and that costs more. Maybe for non-panning one can use a cheap tripod.

Mic: The on-camera mic isn't really worth anything, maybe for doing goof-off family and friends stuff but not for what you want. Musicians have a saying: "Play to the audience." In the video world I would say that for YouTube that playing to the audience who is watching this on their laptop only merits a really cheap mic. However,.... since the camera will no doubt have a 3.5 mm mini jack that will limit the mic availability.

Audio: read the posts in the Audio section here and you'll come away with the concept that a mic that is close to the sound source is good (closer the better) and a wired mic is good. The trouble is that even beginning better mics are going to be the XLR connector type and the camera won't have those connectors so a pre amp will be needed. Mine is a JuicedLink CX211, more or less a starter model, and it has been discontinued. Mics don't get outdated near as much as other electronics so investing in a good mic is practical and it will hold it's value reasonably well. Be sure to make sure you dont buy a Chinese knock-off phony, though.

I'm having a hard time re-writing this and it's all different than my first approach.

Price out an Audio Kit with a mic, cable, pre amp, and a little wind protection and you're going to be not to far from what you would like to spend on the camera. I'm sorry. The good news is, it will last. The other bad news is, if you try different things you'll probably need more mic. This is like an artist with paint brushes and a color pallet.

Video editing applications are tough on laptops - they make 'em work hard so be sure and back-up any files you don't want to loose. I had a hard drive crash and I've never recovered.

Next step: Personally, because FCP X is so cheap, I'd look at that for the next step after iMovie. It has really improved since it came out. I know there are a lot of opinions here that will be different but for the money and what it takes to run it, it's a good bang for the buck. The computer requirements for X are more and I'd go with a Mac that is 2011 or later. The 2008 model MacBook Pro that I have will run X but apparently the motherboards aren't as robust as on other Macs. The '09 and '10 models are similar to my '08. I'll use my '08 if I need to do something and I'm away from home but otherwise I want to use my Mac Pro because it is a lot more robust.

iDVD: if you can get a copy of this it would be good for DVD authoring with a menu. It's a discontinued product and not for sale anymore.

If FCP7 is part of a suite and Compressor is with it, be sure to hang onto that. The "new" Compressor 4 is only $50 and is basically the same as the old one so if you sold your 7 copy you could always buy 4 if needed. A lot of professionals prefer FCP 7 so I might get roasted here for saying that.

Corel: I don't know anything about it. I have Toast 11 and the Corel "support" beyond FAQs is non-existent. And the FAQs aren't much help, either.

More on cameras: I can understand wanting to get a good camera now so you don't have to buy another one later but here is a thought. First some background.

My first video camera was a $1,500 pro-sumer model, Full HD, lots of bells and whistles. As you read above, it was free, BUT there was no battery charger as it got misplaced. So, I went on-line to get one and being me what I am, started also looking for a used one. What I found was a cheap entry-level camera that used the same charger as my camera used. Retail this camera was $300 but he wanted $60 (they depreciate fast) and also came with it's battery. So I bought the package and I get a charger AND a backup battery. Such a deal!

So much for the background. There is one more plus to this picture. Now I have two cameras. This cheapie that I got is also Full HD but also full flash memory (one built in, one removable card). Now I have a B-Roll camera. How about that? What's a B-Roll camera? Sorry, I have to leave something for you to learn, but it is nice. Oh, just remembered, FCPX also does audio syncing.

Bottom line: It'll take some time to learn all the ins and outs of taking video, capturing good audio, learning editing, etc., so starting with a less than stelar video camera (or DSLR if you want), may not be such a bad thing. At least I wouldn't rule it out. On the other hand, maybe you're a faster learner than I am .....

This "second post" isn't nearly as nice as my first one would have been.

Be sure to check out the "All things Audio" and "Supporting your camera" sections. FCP 7 and FCP X have their own sections so they would be worth a visit too. Hope this helps, and if not, ask more questions!

-= John =-
(still a Tourist! and that's my 2 cents)

John, I had to smile at your post above, and I bet I am far from the only person here who empathised with what you said. Even as a professional photographer, I found video a far more difficult genre to get to grips with. So many codecs and frame and bit rates.
Thank you, that's very kind. And, yes, on top of that one has to be a computer guru.

And then you have sound. Way more to it than I am sure most people starting out realise.
Audio is really tough. What winds up being recorded is different from what you heard. I'll never forget trying to record the sound of skis on snow for a radio ad. I tried to record with the mic taped to my ski boot, leg, and just holding it and I could never get the sound I wanted. When recording audio for video when sailing I get all the sounds I DON'T want.

It is really kind of nice having a medium like DVInfo where real pros with years of experience are so willing to share, and the information is solid gold.
That's for sure. Nobody around here has the time to talk about this and, to some degree, you might say the comments are peer reviewed so that's a real plus.

But video is much more rewarding to work with than stills IMHO, but sure as heck takes a bunch of time.
I couldn't agree more.

Vicki - you have gotten some very good advice here. I want to second the recommendation on the Sony NEX-VG10 or VG20 camcorder - at your price point, it is a good compromise between a DSLR and a camcorder.

I have shot with the VG20, and it produces terrific images. Here are some examples of what the VG10/20 can do:


VG20 narrative short "Blonde Ambition"
Blonde Ambition on Vimeo

VG20 narrative short "Date"
Date on Vimeo

VG10 narrative short "It's a Living":
It's A Living on Vimeo

VG10 travel piece:
My Vietnam Experience (NEX-VG10) on Vimeo

VG10 dance piece:
FairyWings in the Woods, Sony NEX-VG10 and Glidecam HD4000, Switzerland 2011 on Vimeo


Something else you may want to consider - in the UK, DSLRs are limited to 30 minutes of continuous recording. If you plan to record plays or long performances, this could be a challenge. The VG10 and VG20 both shoot essentially unlimited length clips.

Here is a used VG10 with the 18-200 autofocusing kit lens for £815.05 on Amazon UK.

Here is one for £795pp on eBay UK (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-53481-19255-0/1?icep_ff3=2&pub=5575034783&toolid=10001&campid=5337235943&customid=&icep_item=221184174694&ipn=psmain&icep_vectorid=229508&kwid=902099&mtid=824&kw=lg).

Sadly, the VG20 is a little above your budget range, the least expensive unit I could find was £1034 (body only, no lens) at Amazon UK Warehouse Deals.

The VG20 does have some advantages over the VG10 (principally a true 24fps frame rate and manual audio gain control), but the VG10 will produce very very nice results for you.

Hope this is helpful and best of luck with your decision and your new video blog!

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution (http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com)

Hi Vickie - I had a really long reply and hit Submit and it vaporized. Seems it didn't like that I "logged in" since I started the reply.

This one will be much shorter and, unfortunately, less informative, but I'll try.

After reading everything from your last post I might suggest this route.

For starters, so you can use your current computer and not have to buy another one, I'd go with iMovie. iMovie has a lot of capability. I've got a MacBook White 1.83 MHz with 2 GB of memory running 10.6.8 (like yours) and it runs iMovie, at least the version I have. This route will allow you to sink your hard-earned money into the "kit".

"Kit": Camera, tripod, and mic. For panning you'll need a video tripod and that costs more. Maybe for non-panning one can use a cheap tripod.

Mic: The on-camera mic isn't really worth anything, maybe for doing goof-off family and friends stuff but not for what you want. Musicians have a saying: "Play to the audience." In the video world I would say that for YouTube that playing to the audience who is watching this on their laptop only merits a really cheap mic. However,.... since the camera will no doubt have a 3.5 mm mini jack that will limit the mic availability.

Audio: read the posts in the Audio section here and you'll come away with the concept that a mic that is close to the sound source is good (closer the better) and a wired mic is good. The trouble is that even beginning better mics are going to be the XLR connector type and the camera won't have those connectors so a pre amp will be needed. Mine is a JuicedLink CX211, more or less a starter model, and it has been discontinued. Mics don't get outdated near as much as other electronics so investing in a good mic is practical and it will hold it's value reasonably well. Be sure to make sure you dont buy a Chinese knock-off phony, though.

I'm having a hard time re-writing this and it's all different than my first approach.

Price out an Audio Kit with a mic, cable, pre amp, and a little wind protection and you're going to be not to far from what you would like to spend on the camera. I'm sorry. The good news is, it will last. The other bad news is, if you try different things you'll probably need more mic. This is like an artist with paint brushes and a color pallet.

Video editing applications are tough on laptops - they make 'em work hard so be sure and back-up any files you don't want to loose. I had a hard drive crash and I've never recovered.

Next step: Personally, because FCP X is so cheap, I'd look at that for the next step after iMovie. It has really improved since it came out. I know there are a lot of opinions here that will be different but for the money and what it takes to run it, it's a good bang for the buck. The computer requirements for X are more and I'd go with a Mac that is 2011 or later. The 2008 model MacBook Pro that I have will run X but apparently the motherboards aren't as robust as on other Macs. The '09 and '10 models are similar to my '08. I'll use my '08 if I need to do something and I'm away from home but otherwise I want to use my Mac Pro because it is a lot more robust.

iDVD: if you can get a copy of this it would be good for DVD authoring with a menu. It's a discontinued product and not for sale anymore.

If FCP7 is part of a suite and Compressor is with it, be sure to hang onto that. The "new" Compressor 4 is only $50 and is basically the same as the old one so if you sold your 7 copy you could always buy 4 if needed. A lot of professionals prefer FCP 7 so I might get roasted here for saying that.

Corel: I don't know anything about it. I have Toast 11 and the Corel "support" beyond FAQs is non-existent. And the FAQs aren't much help, either.

More on cameras: I can understand wanting to get a good camera now so you don't have to buy another one later but here is a thought. First some background.

My first video camera was a $1,500 pro-sumer model, Full HD, lots of bells and whistles. As you read above, it was free, BUT there was no battery charger as it got misplaced. So, I went on-line to get one and being me what I am, started also looking for a used one. What I found was a cheap entry-level camera that used the same charger as my camera used. Retail this camera was $300 but he wanted $60 (they depreciate fast) and also came with it's battery. So I bought the package and I get a charger AND a backup battery. Such a deal!

So much for the background. There is one more plus to this picture. Now I have two cameras. This cheapie that I got is also Full HD but also full flash memory (one built in, one removable card). Now I have a B-Roll camera. How about that? What's a B-Roll camera? Sorry, I have to leave something for you to learn, but it is nice. Oh, just remembered, FCPX also does audio syncing.

Bottom line: It'll take some time to learn all the ins and outs of taking video, capturing good audio, learning editing, etc., so starting with a less than stelar video camera (or DSLR if you want), may not be such a bad thing. At least I wouldn't rule it out. On the other hand, maybe you're a faster learner than I am .....

This "second post" isn't nearly as nice as my first one would have been.

Be sure to check out the "All things Audio" and "Supporting your camera" sections. FCP 7 and FCP X have their own sections so they would be worth a visit too. Hope this helps, and if not, ask more questions!

-= John =-
(still a Tourist! and that's my 2 cents)

John

The 'vapourised' incident must have been really annoying - thanks for writing it again!

I really appreciate your input. I've taken a lot of notes and, along with everyone else's posts, will further research the products that have been suggested.

I certainly have to invest some time into researching audio. Likewise, lights. People keep stressing to me that achieving a 'filmic' look is nothing without getting these right.

I'll think about getting iMovie and starting from there. As I said, I have Final Cut Pro 6, but my Mac can't run it properly.

I doubt I'm a faster learner than you, but I'm dedicated to achieving my goal and am willing to invest a lot of time, so am leaning towards a DSLR.

Thanks for the advice with the back up - an additional hard drive?

Thanks again, really appreciate you taking the time to reply.

Vicki

Vicki - you have gotten some very good advice here. I want to second the recommendation on the Sony NEX-VG10 or VG20 camcorder - at your price point, it is a good compromise between a DSLR and a camcorder.

I have shot with the VG20, and it produces terrific images. Here are some examples of what the VG10/20 can do:


VG20 narrative short "Blonde Ambition"
Blonde Ambition on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/48634282)

VG20 narrative short "Date"
Date on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/38673429)

VG10 narrative short "It's a Living":
It's A Living on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/18865179)

VG10 travel piece:
My Vietnam Experience (NEX-VG10) on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/22431896)

VG10 dance piece:
FairyWings in the Woods, Sony NEX-VG10 and Glidecam HD4000, Switzerland 2011 on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/25697958)


Something else you may want to consider - in the UK, DSLRs are limited to 30 minutes of continuous recording. If you plan to record plays or long performances, this could be a challenge. The VG10 and VG20 both shoot essentially unlimited length clips.

Here is a used VG10 with the 18-200 autofocusing kit lens for £815.05 on Amazon UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B003Y3PFWS/sr=1-8/qid=1359983265/ref=olp_tab_used?ie=UTF8&colid=&coliid=&condition=used&me=&qid=1359983265?tag=hybrcamerevo-21).

Here is one for £795pp on eBay UK (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-53481-19255-0/1?icep_ff3=2&pub=5575034783&toolid=10001&campid=5337235943&customid=&icep_item=221184174694&ipn=psmain&icep_vectorid=229508&kwid=902099&mtid=824&kw=lg).

Sadly, the VG20 is a little above your budget range, the least expensive unit I could find was £1034 (body only, no lens) at Amazon UK Warehouse Deals (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-NEX-VG20EH-Interchangeable-Lens-Camcorder/dp/B006OW5418/ref=sr_1_2?m=A2OAJ7377F756P&s=merchant&ie=UTF8&qid=1359983748?tag=hybrcamerevo-21).

The VG20 does have some advantages over the VG10 (principally a true 24fps frame rate and manual audio gain control), but the VG10 will produce very very nice results for you.

Hope this is helpful and best of luck with your decision and your new video blog!

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution (http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com)

Thanks Bill.
Have looked these over and they do look good, especially the VG20. I am leaning towards a DSLR, as so many people keep recommending it for professional filmmaking and saying the benefits they bring compared to camcorders out way the price and difficulties. But the VG's do look good! It's so hard to know! I will keep researching and thinking about it and will check the camera's out that you left links for.
Thanks very much for your help.
Vicki

This has made me think about what I would buy, starting from scratch, to shoot films on a budget. Here goes...

First, I'd get a used Canon 550D (T2i) with the stock 18-55mm zoom lens. The lens is crap, but it's cheap and covers the critical range for narrative shooting. I'd then add an EF 50/1.8, also used. This lens offers a great image for medium closeups and works well in low light, though mechanically, it's not so great for pulling focus. You will want to upgrade these lenses over time, but they are an effective place to start.

Next, I'd buy a cheap, all-in-one audio recorder, like a Zoom H1. Put it on a painter's stick for a cheap boom mic or in a shirt pocket for a single person speaking. You could also hide it behind a plant, candle, or in some other practical location. It won't sound great, but it will sound way better than anything mounted on-camera. You could add a lavalier mic, allowing you to better hide the unit on an actor. Like lenses, you will want to upgrade over time.

Next comes the camera support. You can get a cheap, photo tripod to hold the camera still. If you want to pan and tilt smoothly, expect to spend a fair amount of cash. Consider your intended style. Maybe a minimalist, no-camera-moves style matches your approach. If you want to shoot handheld, you'll want a rig. If you're handy (or have handy friends), you can build something out of aluminum and/or wood that will give you handles and a shoulder or chest mount.

There are tricks. Like using a large bean bag to support the camera for low shots. Get a smooth piece of wood and put wax paper on it. You can now pull the beanbag across the wood as a budget slider. Want a high shot? Borrow a couple ladders and put a 2x4 piece of lumber between them. Drill a hole in the middle with the right sized screw to mount the camera. Want an underwater shot? Put the camera in a fish tank and push the tank a few inches underwater, rather than spending hundreds on a housing. This approach won't cut the mustard on a pro-crew in Hollywood, but if the shot looks good, the audience has no idea what junk might be behind the camera.

You will need to pull focus. You can build a cheap focus handle with a hose-clamp and dowel, or with a large zip-tie. Just attach to your lens' focus ring to provide a long handle. Better to spend $5 than the $500+ that it costs for a proper follow focus outfit.

For lights, you can get cans that are used to hold bulbs in ceilings. Or get some garage utility lights with clamps. Purchase some 300W bulbs. Get some black foil (from a pro video store online). Now you can create some hard lights. Bounce the light off of some foam core or a white sheet and you have a soft light. Stands can be expensive, so borrow ladders.

That gets you in the game for a modest budget with camera, lenses, audio, support, focus, and lights.

Oh, and get an ND8 filter (3 stops) if you shoot in daylight and don't want super-deep focus. A polarizer can also be handy for removing reflections from glass and for removing additional light outdoors.

With that equipment, you can start creating some work and will learn where your kit's weaknesses are. You will also learn your style. That's probably the most important aspect as the ideal tools for one style might be exactly wrong for somebody else's style.

Best of luck!

First off, welcome.

What do you want to shoot? how would you rate your skills and knowledge? will this be a 'once and done' purchase, or are you likely to expand your interests, gear, and talent?

With camcorders, you have more startup capabilities, with a DSLR you have wider filmic options with many limitations that can be overcome by throwing money at them.

Honestly, if you go the DSLR route, i suggest a used T2i (i have 3), and budget 500+ pounds for audio and misc gear. if you go camcorder route, i would go with an HPX-170, XH A1, or HVX-200B in that order, used, and you have very good audio and other capabilities all built in.

I went from XH A1's with 35mm adapters to DSLR's; its been an interesting experience and there is definitely a learning curve, but most issues are thoroughly worked out now, Magic Lantern is stable and awesome, and the imagery is great. I still miss my XH A1; that an a CF recorder. I STILL recommend that over the DSLR route to those with limited to no experience. I started off in photography, so i had a solid background in lighting, composition, editing, etc, and a partner who had 15+ years of experience in broadcasting to teach me or let me use his old gear.

Any of the aforementioned cameras is capable of great things; and terrible things, the only consideration is really what are YOU willing to go through, buy, learn, and use? Also consider your editing software and equipment. I started off with a $1,000 editing machine and $2,200 camera and 35mm adapter, some old primes, and $500 worth of cheap lights. I used milk crates as a tripod or light stands. more than once. now i have MUCH, much more. I have thought about what a nice new sports car all my gear could have bought. more than once.

If I were going to do it all again right now, i would probably go with a used T2i, a used 50mm f1.8 and 35mm f1.8, and a (used if possible) Rode VideoMic Pro, throw ML on it, and spend a few weeks experimenting and learning. That wouldnt set you back more than 500 pounds, and you'd have some money left over for sticks, cheap lighting, filters (i would go with a polarizer and 2 or 3 ND's) or software/hardware to edit with.

I would suggest renting. That way you can be sure what best suits your needs. Technology changes so quickly it's not worth it. Use a flip cam or an iphone - just light the heck out of it.

Invest the money in a computer for editing/color - that is where you will make your hd footage shine.

Renting is good when you have a specific project and the experience to get things done on schedule. It's not so good for learning or conserving your funds for purchases.

In fact, it can be better to borrow money, purchase used, sell the equipment some months later, and then re-pay the debt. On items like lenses, you might even make money if you buy low, sell high.

The problem with renting is that it can cost $100 or more for a single weekend. You can only learn so much in that time. And if you don't finish the project in that weekend, you'll need more rental cash.

What makes sense is to buy an inexpensive camera, like a used T2i, learn it well, then apply that knowledge to a high-end camera and lens kit that you rent for a very short time. (Hint: study the manual cover to cover during the week before the rental so you're not fumbling around when "on the clock".) But again, you need that specific project and good scheduling to make a rental work well.

Hi everyone,

After much deliberation and research RE: 'buying me first camera', I like the idea of the Canon T3i. It's a big step to start with a DSLR but I will have to learn and experiment, regardless of what camera it is, and it seems to be a professional camera for a good price, and all footage I've seen looks really great. Along with the lens', tripod and audio equipment, it may be slightly over my budget, but I'm happy to wait a couple more weeks to save more, if it's the right one.
If anybody could just pass their verdict on this choice and give their opinion that would be a great help - you've all been really helpful in getting me to this stage, so I'd value the user's of this website's opinion.

Thanks very much,

Vicki

Hi Vicki.
I have for sale a GH2 which may be of interest to you.
Stunning video, some of the sharpest you will see.
No time limit on recording
Complete with 14-42 Lumix lens + Olympus Zuiko 50mm 1.8 and 28mm 2.8 lenses and MFT to OM mount.
The camera is 11 months old and in as new condition, with all accesories, manual, box etc.
You can check out the credentials of this camera on the forum, it is a legendary piece of kit. You are most welcome to test it out to your hearts content. I am on the North Cornwall coast, just over the Devon border, probably about 2 hours from you.
Feel free to contact me, should this be of interest to you.

...... and all footage I've seen looks really great. Along with the lens', tripod and audio equipment, it may be slightly over my budget, but I'm happy to wait a couple more weeks to save more, if it's the right one.

There's nothing like zeroing in on the target - a new (or new-to-me) camera. "Slightly over budget" eh? (that's Canadian speak) [we live near the border so I can't help it]

but I'm happy to wait a couple more weeks to save more ... Thanks very much, Vicki
We're always happy to help spend other peoples money. Remember what Cher (of Sonny & Cher fame) said? "Money is meant to be kept in circulation."

Oh, and don't forget to add some storage media to the budget list. Video files eat up a lot of storage.

Just wondering, by any chance did you happen to check if the proposed camera files will work with the editing software?

The T3i is a very good choice.

I see that Colin has offered the GH2. Deciding between them really depends on what you will shoot. If you will mainly do people-centered pieces, especially with closeups. then I prefer the T3i. The shallow depth of field achievable with the larger sensor allows one to blur the background and really bring the audience's eyes to the character. On the other hand, if your films will be about places, the GH2 will do better with shots of skylines, bricks, cobblestones, and the like. The deeper focus and finer detail is well suited to landscapes and the like.

The limitation with the Canon DSLRs (aside from the 5D3) is that they alias. Down the road, you could add an anti-aliasing filter (Mosaic Engineering Home (http://www.mosaicengineering.com/)), but that would be a budget buster today. Of course, when filming organic objects (like faces) and blurring much of the remaining image, aliasing isn't an issue. But if you do wide shots of cities and closeups of fine lace, aliasing can be a real problem.

No matter what you buy, consider your project and style first, gear second. And remember that you can always sell gear that doesn't suit you. I'm now on my 3rd set of lenses and have recently been considering the sale of one to crossgrade to some other glass. Since I bought used at a good price, I might even make a few dollars on the sale. :)

Anyway, envision your projects - maybe even storyboard them or take cellphone photos to envision what you will do. From that vision, you can best choose your gear.

I’m not trying to hijack this thread, but it might be a good place to ask and see what opinions there are of the option of the Canon HF G10? I see these refurbs on sale and I know it’s getting pretty long in the tooth so to speak, but how does it stack up in terms of quality to the current crop for a more ‘pro’sumer camcorder than the rest of the Vixia line from Canon and other manufacturers?

The refurb price on these is pretty hard to ignore when they are available. I’ve got a refurb HF S20 that I’ve come to see the shortcomings of in low light. It’s not a really big deal; I’m not out making art or anything really, but I’ve got my tax return coming in soon and I might consider Ebaying the S20 to offset the already nice price on the G10 possibly.

Yeah, it would be a hijack. I'd recommend asking here: Canon XA and VIXIA Series AVCHD Camcorders Forum at DVinfo.net (http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xa-vixia-series-avchd-camcorders/)

Hi all

Thanks for further comments and suggestions, much appreciated.

The Canon T2i was suggested, but in looking at videos and reviews etc, I felt I wanted to give the T3i a shot, as I've already mentioned, as it seems a great price for something which produces such great shots. However, people do keep saying that it's a big step, with a lot to learn, so I keep re-deliberating!

To respond to certain things mentioned/asked:

Hiring - I'm going to be shooting something which is ongoing - I don't think the hiring would work, as it will be continuous, and much of it will be sporadic and spontaneous, and therefore I feel I need to be in possession of the camera, rather than have it on specific days. Also, wouldn't it be more cost effective to buy, rather than rent (if I'm going to be using it a lot)?
Experience - my experience is very limited, I've used and hired camera's, but never really learnt them PROPERLY, and never owned one before. I do, however, want to rectify that.
Content - First off, I'm going to be shooting an ongoing diary/blog/mockumentary. This will be focussed on people, primarily (rather than lots of scenic shots).
I know this doesn't necessarily need the power of something like the Canon T3i (although it will involve various locations, both indoors and out), but I have various other projects that I want to shoot, the next being a short which I will be entering into festivals, and so therefore would like something lovely and filmic looking.
Editing - I am a beginner, and so therefore am uncertain of which editing system I would need and how this would effect my decision of which camera to buy (if at all?), but my Macbook is entry level and doesn't have a great amount of power, so cannot use Final Cut Pro (which I do have, but can't run successfully on my Mac). When I've edited, previously, I used Corel (previously known as Ulead) on a friends PC, but that's it - have never used another editing program.
Equipment - yes, I will be purchasing all the other gear - lights, sound, tripod, storage. I am new to this also, but want to make my kit complete and learn this side of filming too. Thanks Jon for all your suggestions/advice on this.

I do really like what I've seen of the T3i, so kind of had my heart set on that, but still really want to consider as much as I can before taking the plunge, which I'm going to have to do very soon!

Thanks all and any more comments/suggestions very welcomed.

Vicki

The T3i is a great choice. For video, the T2i, T3i, T4i and 7D are all roughly equivalent. The T3i gives you the flip out LCD screen, which can be helpful for low and high shots. And with your people-oriented blog/diary as an anchor, a DSLR is a great choice.

You can use the shallow DOF to blur the background, so it will remove clutter in a typical home location. And since the subject and camera will largely be in a fixed location, you don't have to worry about pulling focus. Just don't move closer and farther much!

With a blog, don't forget about lighting. It cracks me up when people's faces are in the dark and the room is brightly lit. You can bounce a light from a white wall or some foam-core for a nice, soft light. A high light behind the subject highlights hair and provides an outline over the background. A hard light from the side adds a more dramatic look.

Practical lights can be used in the background for good effect. A lamp, candle, or Christmas lights not only light the background, but can add interest.

But since the audience will mainly be looking at a talking head, the most important aspect is the audio. Regardless of equipment, the general rule is that the closer the mic the better. If you can tame echos in the room - possibly by hanging a blanket behind the camera - you can make a bigger difference than buying more expensive equipment.

In fact, if you hang a white duvet behind the camera, it can tame reverberation and can also be used for bouncing your soft light. Double duty! :) Just don't get a hot light too close to it to avoid a fire hazzard.

With the T3i, some attention to lighting, a reasonably close mic, and reduced sound reflections, you can create a very professional result. Simply add talent. :)

Best of luck with your project!

Yeah, it would be a hijack. I'd recommend asking here: Canon XA and VIXIA Series AVCHD Camcorders Forum at DVinfo.net (http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xa-vixia-series-avchd-camcorders/)

I’m not particularly asking how the HF G10 stacks up against the other Canons – I’m interjecting it as an option for the OP as a ‘first camera’ that seems viable – he asked himself about the Vixia lineup.

Thanks for going out of your way to be a dickhead though.

Didn't mean to be a jerk. (Hey, I did the work to find a link to the correct forum for the G10.) I thought you were asking about the HF G10 for your own use, rather than proposing it for the OP.

We have an XA10 at work, which is similar to the G10. It's a small sensor cam that is not really cinematic. It would be fine for documentary use. We use it for a master shot at events. That allows us to use DSLRs for the majority of the content, but we have the wide, fixed XA10 shot to cover moments when the DSLR misses focus or has to be restarted due to the 12 minute limit.

Vicki - thanks for staying in touch with your thoughts. Franky, I can really relate to your dilema as one who "has been there, done that." Not exactly "that" but close, and kinda started cinematic life with myself painted in a corner from the get-go. My first video camera used *.TOD files. Ever hear of them? Me neither! And neither did my iMovie application.

So, here I sat (about 3 years ago) with a really nice High-Def camcorder (a couple years old that retailed in the $1,400 range) that I couldn't even edit the videos of. Talk about a bummer. After a great deal of searching I found a number of applications that would both work on my MacBook White AND take my TOD files and covert them to something my movie editor (iMovie) would understand.

Lesson learned: make sure your video eco-system will work ahead of time. That's the camera/camcorder + editing application + computer. Since the camcorder was given to me I had money to burn on other things (upgrading computer to MacBook Pro, upgrading to FCPX, etc.) so that was really great.

For Apple applications one can search "[iMovie][Final Cut Pro X] supported cameras" and get a good list of known cameras that are compatible.

When I started with the video experience I also had my dream projects (and still do!). Life is full of compromises so it becomes a real balancing act when making decisions. Especially for a hobbyest there is "Best," "Good," and there is also "good enough for now".

One good thing in your favor, though, is the longer you spend researching this the better your cost-effective decision should be, and, the less expensive the gear should be. The street price for new cameras tend to plumet in price after their release so that's in your favor. The quality of used gear improves as people upgrade to the newer equipment so that's helpful too. And as you look maybe that good-deal-you-couldn't-refuse happens to come along.

I think Mr Fairhurst had some great creative ideas of how to scrimp and make-do in certain areas so you could allocate more assets to other areas (f.e., camera). The waxed-paper trick was a good one I remember. Getting a used tripod cheap and holding off for a true video tripod until later is what I did because panning wasn't a requirement.