Hi everyone, I used to be on here quite regularly but haven't posted in a while (still read though!)

So I mainly film weddings. I use a GL2. EVERYONE and their dog is asking about High Def. I have looked on Henry's website and they are selling second hand GL2's for $1,000. They are also selling entry point HD cameras for $800.

SONY HDR-CX430VB 32GB HIGH DEFINITION CAMCORDER HDRCX430VB (http://www.henrys.com/76209-SONY-HDR-CX430VB-32GB-HIGH-DEFINITION-CAMCORDER.aspx)
this particular camera films for 11.5 hours etc and seems like it could do what I need. I could trade in both Gl2s for 2 of these.

Trying to decide if I should make the jump?

Aside from the obvious "keeping up with what the client wants" I am considering the switch because mini DV tape is getting harder to find, my gear weighs so much more than what you can get now. And mainly because I find once it's compressed onto DVD I can see the loss in quality.

Any advice is greatly appreciated!
Kelsey

We went HD and tapeless 4 or 5 years ago. I'm not going back to tape or SD!

I'm not familiar with the specific camcorder you are looking at, though I would caution you in several areas.

Firstly, what are the manual controls like? Unless you are an auto-everything type of shooter (after all these years can that be true?) then pay close attention to the usability of the camera for manual focus, manual iris, manual shutter, manual white balance, manual gain. Hopefully you already thought of this!

Second, how will you capture sound? There are no XLR inputs on these types of cameras, no easy way to attach wireless mics etc. You've shot enough by now to know what you need.

Next, pay close attention to what this camera is like in low light. Not all the consumer cameras are great, but they are not all really bad either. Noise on HD footage can be pretty nasty if your camera isn't up to the job.

Then, what codec is it using (probably AVCHD) and is your editing system up to the task? What else will you need to buy (computers and software) in order to make this work? Editing HD puts much more strain on your hardware than SD ever did and AVCHD yet more strain than an editing codec such as ProRes or DNxHD. There is quite a lot of software out there claiming to edit AVCHD natively, and most of it does a reasonable job provided you have an up-spec PC/Mac. If you're a few years out of date then you're going to need to budget for a computer upgrade sooner rather than later.

In terms of should you go HD? I would think the market for 4x3 SD is fast diminishing now. we'd shot wide screen for as long as we've been shooting HD and most people's TVs are now 16x9, not 4x3. Some of the older SD cameras did widescreen but you lost resolution and it could look pretty nasty :(

Not everyone is looking for final delivery in full HD, but most people like the fact that you're filming in HD even though they are getting a DVD at the end. Don't really know why, other than most people don't realise (and have never thought about) DVDs are not HD.

If you intend to deliver on Blu-ray, do you have drives and software capable of that delivery? We're often delivering SD on DVD and then providing the HD as a download. YMMV.

Just a couple of comments before you change cameras. You say that everyone is talking about HD, but don't forget that if you are ouputting to dvd, your clients will not be viewing HD. You will have to output to BluRay if you want HD viewing for your clients, and most of my clients in the UK still want dvd.

I changed to small HD cams a couple of years back and love the battery life, lack of moving transport, length of footage without worrying about changing tapes and the ability to transfer footage very quickly rather than waiting for the tape to run through.

The camera that you have linked to though is a single CMOS camera rather than the 3 chip that you have on your current cameras. As far as I can see, the linked camera also has no viewfinder, just the LCD screen, so you may find problems viewing it in sunlight. I would seriously consider looking at 3xcmos cameras which should give you better low light and colour performance, and I would certainly reccommend a viewfinder if you are intending regular outdoors filming.

Just my opinion of course, and I am sure others will offer alternative views.

Roger

David got in first, but I totally agree with his points:-)

Roger

Kelsey, check completed listings for GL2s on ebay and you'll see the GL2 is selling for closer to $500, on a good day. Packages with a hard case, etc., sell for a bit more, up to $650, but that looks like the very high end. Most seem to have sold for between $249 and $449.

I don't know Henry's website you refer to, but I seriously doubt that anyone selling a GL2 for $1000 is getting it, but you never know. SD camcorders are just not in demand, they are becoming like 8 track tapes, obsolete.

If they were 16x9 it would help, but they shoot in 4:3, and are just not worth much these days.

Best of luck to you in your upgrade. Make sure you buy something with a mic input cause with the cameras you're looking at you will need a shotgun microphone.

Also, if you go HD, you're footage will be much more difficult to edit if you use an older PC, so you "may" or "may not" need a new pc or an upgrade. If you shoot multiple cameras and edit multicam, it is a lot more taxing on your pc, so be aware.

Thanks everyone!

Dave I didn't really look into that camera that well and you are right about some of the short comings! Thanks!

I ended up calling a well trusted salesperson at Henrys and he told me that the trade in on the GL2's are $400 a pop (and that price hadn't been updated for 2 years but he is willing to honor it for me).

He also informed me of a new Sony on the market that seems to be a great deal. It rings in at $1200 and is wifi capable so you can live steam a ceremony with the push of a button and as well it has a lens stability that is usually found on $4,000 cameras. Apparently the entire lens is housed in a stabilizer??

Anyway I am going to check out the camera and go from there.

I also think I am moving away form delivering on DVD's and considering giving clients a hard drive option. Seems like that's what everyone is asking for these days??

Thanks for all the input!

You probably should at least consider jumping on that "offer" - old SD/tape cams don't have a lot of market value. Even HD cams are getting eaten by the smart phones with "HD", meaning the lower end consumer ones are trying to compete on price, and the higher end ones aren't selling like they used to.

You definitely need to consider the computer upgrade side of the equation, you don't edit HD on an old or low spec machine, unless you have a lot of patience...

The Sony 430 you're looking at is a lower spec, and it sounds like your saleperson was at least directing you towards the higher end Sonys with the BOSS stabilization - 3 models last year had the larger 1/3" Exmor sensor, this year they announced ONE. That 4xx series has a 1/4" sensor, which may or may not perform that well... I have a little GW77 and it does OK, but I wouldn't rely on it as a "main" camera under most conditions!

You're probably realistically looking at $1-2K per camera for "upgrades" that won't break the bank and won't be obsolete image wise - you don't want to jump from "really outdated" to "almost outdated"...

One of the challenges is the aforementioned market shift, manufacturers are not doing a lot of development on the higher end consumer camera - Panasonic, Canon and Sony are all doing minor incremental upgrades year over year.

I don't know why delivering on DVD has to be considered "low quality" (think about those "teasers" for BR that look so sharp ON DVD!!). By acquiring in HD to start with, you should be able to produce a reasonably high quality DVD... of course BR burners and players have dropped in price, and I don't think it's possible to buy an "SD" TV anymore! DVD's still sell/rent, and commercial ones don't look "bad" when played on a modern player...

Well lucky for me my computer was something I won't need to upgrade. It's powerful enough to do the job.

I am considering the "offer" but on our Kijiji the cameras are selling at a bit Higher than they are giving me. If I package them both up and throw in all the extra batteries and lens filters etc I am thinking I *might* get a $1,000 for everything??

Here is a link to the camera he mentioned to me and I am considering. Any thoughts on this model??

SONY HDR-PJ650VB 32GB HIGH DEFINITION CAMCORDER HDRPJ650VB (http://www.henrys.com/76212-SONY-HDR-PJ650VB-32GB-HIGH-DEFINITION-CAMCORDER.aspx)

Once again, I'm going to come back to manual controls. Yes, this camera claims to have manual controls, but if you need to dive in to menus to do it then it's less than optimal under the fast moving stressful situations of a wedding.

Sooooo..... find and download the user manual and do a first look at the controls. Then, if it looks reasonable find one and play with it!

Also, again, no XLR audio. Do you have audio solved in other ways?

Well lucky for me my computer was something I won't need to upgrade. It's powerful enough to do the job.

I am considering the "offer" but on our Kijiji the cameras are selling at a bit Higher than they are giving me. If I package them both up and throw in all the extra batteries and lens filters etc I am thinking I *might* get a $1,000 for everything??

My experience (both buying and selling) is that bundles generally fetch less than the sum of the parts sold separately. By putting everything together you are limiting the number of people looking to buy 'everything', and if you think about it, everyone is used to getting more for less when they buy bundles of things.

It's says there is an external audio input. Did I read that wrong?

On Sat I am going to check it out and see if it is user friendly with full manual ability.
On the GL2 I have the option of being in Manual mode or Program mode I guess I sort of assumed that all cameras where the same?

It's says there is an external audio input. Did I read that wrong?

Most of these camcorders do have an external mic input via 1/8" (3.5mm) jack. That's going to restrict the types of mics you can use, but if your mic has that kind of connection you are probably good to go. Of course you'll need to check you also have manual audio control AND headphone socket for monitoring?


On the GL2 I have the option of being in Manual mode or Program mode I guess I sort of assumed that all cameras where the same?

That's rather a dangerous assumption, especially when it comes to consumer cameras.

My experience (both buying and selling) is that bundles generally fetch less than the sum of the parts sold separately. By putting everything together you are limiting the number of people looking to buy 'everything', and if you think about it, everyone is used to getting more for less when they buy bundles of things.

Valid point!

Most of these camcorders do have an external mic input via 1/8" (3.5mm) jack. That's going to restrict the types of mics you can use, but if your mic has that kind of connection you are probably good to go. Of course you'll need to check you also have manual audio control AND headphone socket for monitoring?



That's rather a dangerous assumption, especially when it comes to consumer cameras.

Only dangerous if I am buying sight unseen?? For the record I'm not an idiot...just looking for some feedback.

Hey Kelsey.

I'd ask myself first, "what kind of weddings" do i want to continue doing?
If your clientelle prefers a documented day, then this Sony might be fine. Low light performance is a huge deal, so be careful.
Personally, this camcorder isn't what i'd buy..You should check out one of the sites' sponsors. They're local to us..Hamilton Video and Sound (http://www.hvs.on.ca/pro-video/professional-camcorders-a-decks).
Yes, the camcorders cost a bit more, but they'll pay off in no time.
The manual controls are totally essential, and it will look much more professional.

If you're looking to get into cinematic, this is another ball of wax..

Manual control on these typically means you can control shutter OR aperature, not both. Auto functions are usually VERY good, and can adapt to changing image conditions faster than most operators. Also there are some pretty cool capabilities via touch screen.

Any of the long term Sony owners here could give you the basic rundown on how to set the camera for best results. These are SMALL cameras, controls are what they are, small, limited, and not for everyone (sausage fingered operators will get frustrated fast!). You generally won't have to access controls a lot (thanks to well tuned "intelligent auto"), but you have SOME control in a pinch.

1/8" mic input and a headphone jack are present right side rear, a bit awkward as they are "under" the handstrap, not a problem if you're on tripod or a rig. You get the BOSS "magic eyeball" which is pretty much as good as a steadycam if you're handheld, it's like the gimballed tracking modules on air to air missles, it stays on target! G glass rather than Zeiss, one place they cut a bit of cost.

Here's the one worry I'd have, this new "6xx" series has the general "upscale features" of the older 5xx and 7xx series, but the specs say it's a 4.7mm sensor vs. a 6.3mm on the PJ790 (likely the same as 2012 7xx series cams)... I'm not familiar with your old GL2, but you may or may not take a performance hit in comparison... IOW, you might find the 650 to be adequate to your expectations, or not - the GL2 was a midrange cam if memory serves, and so your "low light" expectations may not be too high to start with? Since this is a new model, I hesitate to comment on whether the performance will do the trick for you... low lux mode on the 7xx series cams usually gives the camera better low light than most people's eyes. A small LED light with a dimmer also works wonders, a little light goes a long way with these cameras.

Download the manual, if this years models aren't posted yet, last years will probably be similar enough - there are ways to optimize these little cameras and squeeze a lot out of them, better to know at least where to poke before you go hands on so you can get an accurate impression - half the time I swear the "review" sites criticize a cam because they are clueless on how to operate it, you'll have better luck asking here!

I've used Sonys for a while, so that's the way I'd lean, but you could also look at Panasonics or Canon - both offer similar cameras in this price range, and there are DVi threads that will give you the low down on them.

You might take a gander at the "shooting with small handycams" thread here, and you'll have to decide whether you "need" a big cam for your shooting style, or to "impress" clients. I have no doubt that you will find the image capture capability of ANY current HD cam to be a big leap over your GL's...



As far as "bundling", let's just say some bundles will make you more, others will lose you money big time! I would NOT package two cameras together, the odds of finding another event videographer that "needs" a pair of cameras, especially "vintage" ones is not so good, IMO... but you probably should put together packages with the accessories you no longer need, that may help your value, as the accessories may not have much value on their own due to age, but will help make the cameras more attractive...


You might be surprised by how quickly 28MBps 60p video can get choppy on an even slightly "older" computer, so don't underestimate that component - my "aging" i7 desktop that handled 17MBps smoothly sometimes has trouble with it... I'm hoping to hang in a little longer since 4K is probably coming sooner rather than later!

Only dangerous if I am buying sight unseen?? For the record I'm not an idiot...just looking for some feedback.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend, was more a speech term than an indication of your competence.

Do be careful though, I've played with smaller sony cameras in the past as was not impressed by the usability in full manual mode in a hurry. Yes it could be done, but not quickly. My guess is you'd end up relying on the automatics more than you think just because it is easier and quicker.

We have a Canon HF G10 that we no longer use very much. It has full manual controls via a dial and a button, and for the average enthusiast it's perfect. In a run & gun situation we and up sticking it on auto simply because it's too fiddly to change the manual settings quickly.

Also, touch screen can be both a blessing and a curse. It's nice to be able to point to something, but when you have tiny icons or 'tabs' in menus and then you need to scroll it's a lot slower than the same interface on the XF100 that has a joystick control.

If you're serious, you need to try it. There is also a danger (not offence intended!) that you could want the change enough that you will emotionally minimise / ignore the negatives in user interface only to regret it later. I've done it myself, and yes I've come to regret it!

Well, I have a pair of sony cx730's, a pair of 550d's, a xh-a1 and a sony nex ea50, if you would tell me I was only allowed to carry just one type of camera with me to shoot a wedding which one I would choose? It would be the cx730's. I"d only would use one beachtek adapter and a cheap chinees shoulder mount for one camera and have 2 tripods with me and a bunch of small and cheap audio recorders and I"m good to go. Minimal budget, maximal return and good image quality and sound.

The top of the line Sony' handicams are very good, they are as good in low light as my 550d's and nex-ea50 with fast lenzes. They have a wide angle lens that goes wider then most much more expensive fixed lens camera's, they have a stabiliser function that will give tripod like footage handheld, their auto focus is excellent, even in low light and the footage is sharp enough, sharper then my large sensor camera's and they even have a build in videolight.

They are not perfect, no, and especially manually controll is limited but the small wheel in front you could manually run exposure with and with touch screen change other parameters, like just pressing where you want the camera to focus, or using face detect or just use the screen to lock and change focus manually. It does take a lot longer to make adjustments through your screen, especially compared to a professional camera but for what I paid for it, the ease of use, the quality they output and the mobility you have with such small devices they where the best investement I made for doing weddings. Also, no need to worry about not looking professional, that just between the ears and once you get over that you will notice your clients will only remember you for what you eventually deliver or put online, not what you used to shoot their wedding.

If you want to see what you can do with these camera's, just pm me and I"ll send a link.

Noa hits it on the head - would you rather have a camera with lots of controls that you have to fiddle with, or a camera with limited manual controls that runs reliably in "auto"? Controls are great when you have the time to set things, but in "live fire", I'd rather not HAVE to worry about overriding the camera to get acceptable image quality - yes, I want to have the option, but how much time do you really have when there's one shot at capturing the moment... I'm willing to admit that a camera with good design and firmware can probably beat me to the punch on making needed adjustments.


The wild card on that 650 is that smaller sensor, IMO, and I don't think there's much info on it since the model is new. If you can compare to a CX760 or PJ760 (or the PJ710 with no viewfinder), I think that would be a valid crosscheck before you make a decision. "Newer" may or may not mean better, and sometimes "last years model" may provide a good option.

I have been using small cameras for years at weddings, and currently have three Panasonic SD700s. The picture quality is excellent and low light performance sees better than my eyes, with solid blacks and good colour.

I don't get noticed with a small camera and that is exactly what I want at a wedding. Automatoc adjustment is way better than older cameras although manuasl are there for when I want. The small cameras also give the ability to move very quickly between shots which I find invaluable and sound quality very good when using an external mic.

I can't think of any advantages at all with using a big camera at a wedding, certainly not with my way of working. If picture quality is good enough for you and your clients, then size does matter - keep it small.

Roger

Hey Kelsey.

I'd ask myself first, "what kind of weddings" do i want to continue doing?
If your clientelle prefers a documented day, then this Sony might be fine. Low light performance is a huge deal, so be careful.
Personally, this camcorder isn't what i'd buy..You should check out one of the sites' sponsors. They're local to us..Hamilton Video and Sound (http://www.hvs.on.ca/pro-video/professional-camcorders-a-decks).
Yes, the camcorders cost a bit more, but they'll pay off in no time.
The manual controls are totally essential, and it will look much more professional.

If you're looking to get into cinematic, this is another ball of wax..

Hey Peter! Good to see you are still here! Hope all is well. Thanks for your input as usual. I will absolutely check out that site so thanks for posting.

In terms of what I "need"...it's a tough one. I am "just" a documentary style videographer and I throw is some cool shots and creative editing in the Highlight reel just to stay current and stay on my toes creatively. But I have no ambitions of being the next Still Motion.

Currently I am just EMBARRASSED to be showing up with such antiquated equipment yet I have no real interest in sinking $6,000 -$8,000 into a "side job".

I need two cameras and all the "extra's" (extra batteries, lens filters, extra mem cards) and it all adds up. And truthfully who knows how many more years I am going to be doing this??

Lots to think about! Thanks again!

Manual control on these typically means you can control shutter OR aperature, not both. Auto functions are usually VERY good, and can adapt to changing image conditions faster than most operators. Also there are some pretty cool capabilities via touch screen.

Any of the long term Sony owners here could give you the basic rundown on how to set the camera for best results. These are SMALL cameras, controls are what they are, small, limited, and not for everyone (sausage fingered operators will get frustrated fast!). You generally won't have to access controls a lot (thanks to well tuned "intelligent auto"), but you have SOME control in a pinch.

1/8" mic input and a headphone jack are present right side rear, a bit awkward as they are "under" the handstrap, not a problem if you're on tripod or a rig. You get the BOSS "magic eyeball" which is pretty much as good as a steadycam if you're handheld, it's like the gimballed tracking modules on air to air missles, it stays on target! G glass rather than Zeiss, one place they cut a bit of cost.

Here's the one worry I'd have, this new "6xx" series has the general "upscale features" of the older 5xx and 7xx series, but the specs say it's a 4.7mm sensor vs. a 6.3mm on the PJ790 (likely the same as 2012 7xx series cams)... I'm not familiar with your old GL2, but you may or may not take a performance hit in comparison... IOW, you might find the 650 to be adequate to your expectations, or not - the GL2 was a midrange cam if memory serves, and so your "low light" expectations may not be too high to start with? Since this is a new model, I hesitate to comment on whether the performance will do the trick for you... low lux mode on the 7xx series cams usually gives the camera better low light than most people's eyes. A small LED light with a dimmer also works wonders, a little light goes a long way with these cameras.

Download the manual, if this years models aren't posted yet, last years will probably be similar enough - there are ways to optimize these little cameras and squeeze a lot out of them, better to know at least where to poke before you go hands on so you can get an accurate impression - half the time I swear the "review" sites criticize a cam because they are clueless on how to operate it, you'll have better luck asking here!

I've used Sonys for a while, so that's the way I'd lean, but you could also look at Panasonics or Canon - both offer similar cameras in this price range, and there are DVi threads that will give you the low down on them.

You might take a gander at the "shooting with small handycams" thread here, and you'll have to decide whether you "need" a big cam for your shooting style, or to "impress" clients. I have no doubt that you will find the image capture capability of ANY current HD cam to be a big leap over your GL's...



As far as "bundling", let's just say some bundles will make you more, others will lose you money big time! I would NOT package two cameras together, the odds of finding another event videographer that "needs" a pair of cameras, especially "vintage" ones is not so good, IMO... but you probably should put together packages with the accessories you no longer need, that may help your value, as the accessories may not have much value on their own due to age, but will help make the cameras more attractive...


You might be surprised by how quickly 28MBps 60p video can get choppy on an even slightly "older" computer, so don't underestimate that component - my "aging" i7 desktop that handled 17MBps smoothly sometimes has trouble with it... I'm hoping to hang in a little longer since 4K is probably coming sooner rather than later!
LOTS of great info here for me to consider! Thanks. Will def check out some of those forums. And your right about my computer...and the thought of having to upgrade ALL that is daunting again!

Seriously considering taking the trade in value that he offered just for the simplicity of it! Will look into this further for sure! Thanks again!

Sorry, didn't mean to offend, was more a speech term than an indication of your competence.

Do be careful though, I've played with smaller sony cameras in the past as was not impressed by the usability in full manual mode in a hurry. Yes it could be done, but not quickly. My guess is you'd end up relying on the automatics more than you think just because it is easier and quicker.

We have a Canon HF G10 that we no longer use very much. It has full manual controls via a dial and a button, and for the average enthusiast it's perfect. In a run & gun situation we and up sticking it on auto simply because it's too fiddly to change the manual settings quickly.

Also, touch screen can be both a blessing and a curse. It's nice to be able to point to something, but when you have tiny icons or 'tabs' in menus and then you need to scroll it's a lot slower than the same interface on the XF100 that has a joystick control.

If you're serious, you need to try it. There is also a danger (not offence intended!) that you could want the change enough that you will emotionally minimise / ignore the negatives in user interface only to regret it later. I've done it myself, and yes I've come to regret it!

No problem. Misunderstood. As a woman in this industry I often come across a "Look here little lady" mentality. Sorry I jumped the gun! Thanks again for your insight!

Well, I have a pair of sony cx730's, a pair of 550d's, a xh-a1 and a sony nex ea50, if you would tell me I was only allowed to carry just one type of camera with me to shoot a wedding which one I would choose? It would be the cx730's. I"d only would use one beachtek adapter and a cheap chinees shoulder mount for one camera and have 2 tripods with me and a bunch of small and cheap audio recorders and I"m good to go. Minimal budget, maximal return and good image quality and sound.

The top of the line Sony' handicams are very good, they are as good in low light as my 550d's and nex-ea50 with fast lenzes. They have a wide angle lens that goes wider then most much more expensive fixed lens camera's, they have a stabiliser function that will give tripod like footage handheld, their auto focus is excellent, even in low light and the footage is sharp enough, sharper then my large sensor camera's and they even have a build in videolight.

They are not perfect, no, and especially manually controll is limited but the small wheel in front you could manually run exposure with and with touch screen change other parameters, like just pressing where you want the camera to focus, or using face detect or just use the screen to lock and change focus manually. It does take a lot longer to make adjustments through your screen, especially compared to a professional camera but for what I paid for it, the ease of use, the quality they output and the mobility you have with such small devices they where the best investement I made for doing weddings. Also, no need to worry about not looking professional, that just between the ears and once you get over that you will notice your clients will only remember you for what you eventually deliver or put online, not what you used to shoot their wedding.

If you want to see what you can do with these camera's, just pm me and I"ll send a link.
This post was very helpful! Thanks! Really giving me a LOT to consider. I will be sending you a PM and would love to see some footage. Might have some other questions for you also!

Noa hits it on the head - would you rather have a camera with lots of controls that you have to fiddle with, or a camera with limited manual controls that runs reliably in "auto"? Controls are great when you have the time to set things, but in "live fire", I'd rather not HAVE to worry about overriding the camera to get acceptable image quality - yes, I want to have the option, but how much time do you really have when there's one shot at capturing the moment... I'm willing to admit that a camera with good design and firmware can probably beat me to the punch on making needed adjustments.


The wild card on that 650 is that smaller sensor, IMO, and I don't think there's much info on it since the model is new. If you can compare to a CX760 or PJ760 (or the PJ710 with no viewfinder), I think that would be a valid crosscheck before you make a decision. "Newer" may or may not mean better, and sometimes "last years model" may provide a good option.
I guess this ^^ is really my big decision isn't it?? The truth for me is this: I am at a crossroads. I either need to keep the GL2's and slowly be fazed out or I need to upgrade to camera's that aren't going to bankrupt me or require I remortgage my house and squeeze out a few more years.

My filming/editing is strong. People hire me because I do good work and 75% of my business is word of mouth. I only film 12- 18 weddings per year. And frankly I'm just not ready to throw in the towel yet. I still love the work and while I know I have a few years left in me I don't want to purchase $3,000 camneras to stay current.

I have been using small cameras for years at weddings, and currently have three Panasonic SD700s. The picture quality is excellent and low light performance sees better than my eyes, with solid blacks and good colour.

I don't get noticed with a small camera and that is exactly what I want at a wedding. Automatoc adjustment is way better than older cameras although manuasl are there for when I want. The small cameras also give the ability to move very quickly between shots which I find invaluable and sound quality very good when using an external mic.

I can't think of any advantages at all with using a big camera at a wedding, certainly not with my way of working. If picture quality is good enough for you and your clients, then size does matter - keep it small.

Roger
Again...great points! Thanks!

Hi Kelsey,

Everyone will have their own opinion on what camera to get, for various reasons. Personally, while I am very impressed with the images from some of the new tiny cams, I could never use one as a MAIN camera, especially for run-and-gun situations like weddings. I've always used hand-held cameras, such as Sony VX-2000 and FX-7, which are reasonably sized and also have a lot of manual controls, which I find a necessity with the constantly changing lighting and other issues we encounter.

I do have a Canon HV-20 which is much smaller than my Sony cams, and I use this as a B-roll or "baclony cam". The image is excellent, on par with the larger 3-chip Sony FX-7 main camera, but its lack of manual controls make it totally unsuitable for me as a main camera. There is not time to fiddle with menus or joysticks when I need to change settings on the fly to get a shot.

I have been looking for a new main camera and the one I would buy today is the Panasonic AC-90. It has the same general size I'm used to, and manual rings for zoom, focus, and iris that I feel more comfortable having. Also has XLR audio with volume controls, dual-recording slots for extended record time or backup mode (record to both cards at once). Yes, it has small chips but the gain is said to be incredibly clean at high levels. The image stabilization also gets good marks.

Just my two cents ;-)

Jeff Pulera

No problem. Misunderstood. As a woman in this industry I often come across a "Look here little lady" mentality. Sorry I jumped the gun! Thanks again for your insight!

Haha, well.... 'Kelsey" is not a name I've come across before so I had no idea if you were male or female, and I gave up judging people by their names a very long time ago.

There's lots of awesome female photographers and videographers around and being female also gives you lots of advantages too. Why anyone in this industry puts people down based on gender is beyond me!

You'll likely notice things men won't (and visa versa), and of course it's likely you don't have to leave the room while the bride gets ready!

Haha, well.... 'Kelsey" is not a name I've come across before so I had no idea if you were male or female, and I gave up judging people by their names a very long time ago.The only 'Kelsey' that I had heard of is the actor Kelsey Grammer the star of 'Frasier'. However looking in Wikipedia I must have been going round with my eyes shut all these years ignoring the many Kelseys that there are around

Kelsey was the 201st most popular name for girls born in the United States in 2007. It was among the top 50 most popular names for girls there in the 1990s. It was last ranked among the top 1,000 most common names for boys there in 1996. It was the 528th most common name for women in the United States in the 1990 census. Kelsey was ranked among the top 100 names for girls born in Scotland in 2007. It was also among the top 100 names for girls born in England and Wales in the late 1990s.

I named my daughter Kelsey back in 1995. Can't say why necessarily, was just going through the lists of names and liked that one. Didn't want to use something that was so common at the time like Ashley or Nicole or Sarah, or whatever (no offense if that is your name). Being a "Jeff" born in the 1960s, my name is terribly common in my age group. I had one class in school with 4 Jeffs in the same small room!

Jeff Pulera

Apparently the female version of the name is Kellsey? My mon named me from a novel she was reading at the time. I grew up in a small town and my name was NOT common. I was an adult before I met another Kelsey.

But yes I doubt you would have guessed or known I was female based on my name :)

And yes, happy to report that my gender often gets me the golden ticket into the room the bride is getting dressed in ;-)

Lots to think about. Going to go look at all my options this weekend. Still so confused :(

Yes, it has small chips but the gain is said to be incredibly clean at high levels. The image stabilization also gets good marks.

The ac90 is also a good option, especially at it's price point where you get a lot of camera for the money.

So in terms of computer needs...
I am currently working on an HP with 8G's of Ram and a quad core proccesor. Will that be enough? I use Premier Pro for editing. This is fine for my DS footage but will it be enough for HD??

what type of quad core?

Great question! It says (I am reading off it) "Intel Core2 Quad inside"

Can you also see what the processor speed is, could it a be that it's a q6600 processor?

Kelsey,

I have to give you props for stretching a lot of life out of those GL's... but I think you've earned an upgrade!

Equipment upgrades can be daunting, sometimes even disappointing, that's why I tend to buy good used gear... if I don't like it, I can just turn it over to soemone else who probably will!

HD is probably "expected" now, where a couple years ago it wasn't as much a part of the public consciouness, and you WILL enjoy the improvements in image quality. Even over the FX7 and HV20 Jeff mentioned... those cameras were great, but now are probably 5+ years old? Technology moved farily fast, but we are probably now on the cusp of 4K cameras, and "full HD" may not see a lot of further development, though the equipment as it is, is quite capable. You could probably buy any camera introduced in the last 2-3 years and have a solid investment for the next few years.


You haven't mentioned any "big chip" cameras like a DSLR, so I think the advice has run to traditional video cameras, but the DSLR's and such open up some creative possibilities - I know I shoot both stills and video, and am comfortable with the manual aspects of my SLT cameras - I note Noa also has this "mix" - each type of camera has its strengths, and it "may" be worth considering?

The budget thing is always a bugger, but you CAN do it on a shoestring and still have very high quality image capture devices nowadays! I "downsized" and never regretted it or felt it hindered anything, I've added SLT's to the mix, the biggest camera I've got is a VG20, and I'm seriously debating where it fits in... great machine, but probalby NOT needed for a docu weding!

you can check it by pressing the windows button, then click on configuration screen, then device manager and then select processor. (Hope I translated right as I have a Dutch OS.)

Can you also see what the processor speed is, could it a be that it's a q6600 processor?

Ok I followed your directions and it says: Intel (R) Core (TM)2 Quad CPU Q9300 @2.50Ghz

Actually...It has this 4 times..so does that mean it's 10Ghz in total??

It's Latin to me! Does that give you any more info? Thanks for all your help!

Kelsey,

I have to give you props for stretching a lot of life out of those GL's... but I think you've earned an upgrade!

Equipment upgrades can be daunting, sometimes even disappointing, that's why I tend to buy good used gear... if I don't like it, I can just turn it over to soemone else who probably will!

HD is probably "expected" now, where a couple years ago it wasn't as much a part of the public consciouness, and you WILL enjoy the improvements in image quality. Even over the FX7 and HV20 Jeff mentioned... those cameras were great, but now are probably 5+ years old? Technology moved farily fast, but we are probably now on the cusp of 4K cameras, and "full HD" may not see a lot of further development, though the equipment as it is, is quite capable. You could probably buy any camera introduced in the last 2-3 years and have a solid investment for the next few years.


You haven't mentioned any "big chip" cameras like a DSLR, so I think the advice has run to traditional video cameras, but the DSLR's and such open up some creative possibilities - I know I shoot both stills and video, and am comfortable with the manual aspects of my SLT cameras - I note Noa also has this "mix" - each type of camera has its strengths, and it "may" be worth considering?

The budget thing is always a bugger, but you CAN do it on a shoestring and still have very high quality image capture devices nowadays! I "downsized" and never regretted it or felt it hindered anything, I've added SLT's to the mix, the biggest camera I've got is a VG20, and I'm seriously debating where it fits in... great machine, but probalby NOT needed for a docu weding!

DSLR's seem daunting with the length of capture time. Don't they only get 22mins of continuous capture on a memory card? Seems like a hassle? Not against the idea...but I think they are a bit out of my "upgrade" budget. But again...this is the first time in YEARS that I have been poking around to see what's out there and what the current prices are.

Lots to take in at once!

Don't they only get 22mins of continuous capture on a memory card?

That would depend on the size of the memory card ;) We use 32GB cards mostly and get around 88mins or so. What you may be thinking of is the continuous recording time (after which it stops and you have to press record again). Some cameras it's as low as 12mins, others it's 29m59s. Using DSLR means you also need a separate audio recorder otherwise you lose audio when ever the camera stops, and DSLR audio is not that great anyway.

However, while DSLRs are gorgeous, and much better than traditional camcorders in lower light conditions they are a LOT harder work, and I do mean a LOT. They are not for the faint heated by any means, and if you like to set a camera and leave it alone then DSLRs may not be for you. Combine that with the shallow depth of field that everyone craves for (for the 'film' look) not giving you much latitude if people don't start where they are supposed to (unattended camera) or keep moving about and they can be a major PITA.

Also, while some DSLRs (e.g. 550D / T2i) can look cheap to buy initially, you'll soon end up wanting some nice fast prime lenses which cost way more than the camera themselves and...well it's a slippery slope ;)

If the final quality worth it? Absolutely. Are they for everyone? No.

We shoot with a combination of video cameras (Canon XF100s) and DSLRs (5D3). We have enough of each that we can shoot entire weddings one one or the other, or we can combine them where needed to give us lots of unattended cameras and flexibility of moving around with the others. The most we've shot with recently has been 6 cameras (thanks to multicam editing it's a no brainer sometimes). We also have 768GB of card capacity so that we can shoot back to back weddings without having to erase the first day's cards in order to shoot next day!

For any one looking to operate DSLRs in an unattended mode but haven't seen this yet - check out the CamRanger ( CamRanger | Wireless DSLR Remote Control Tether for iPad (http://www.camranger.com) ). I'm hoping to pick on up in the next couple of weeks, but we'll see.

Kelsey, you say this is a second job, so hopefully you aren't relying on all the money to live on. With that in mind, I'd be thinking about how long term you plan on doing this. Buying gear now, only to find it's not quite what you want, selling it and buying different gear gets expensive. It's worth taking your time to get this right, notwithstanding the fact that your current gear is depreciating by the day (isn't all gear!!!).

Try to find people using your proposed gear as their main camera for weddings. A lot of people are happy to use them as their second/third/fourth camera, but then have a better camera as their main camera operated more in manual mode. Get some examples of weddings shot on this kind of camera in low light. Almost any camera can look great in good light, but winter weddings in dark churches or speeches in candle lit venues have a nasty habit of making the gear look like what it really is, 'consumer quality'.

While the consumer cameras appear at first to do an awesome job in low light, what they are actually doing it applying massive noise reduction and then boosting saturation to give a very plastic smeared appearance with drastically reduced detail. Of course, the B+G could well be happy with what ever they get and it may not be an issue for you.

Sony SLT's, NEX's and their P&S line do 29.59 minutes, and can restart. There are potential heat issues with some models on longer clips, and they are a different "animal". Unless you spend for "fast" glass, low light may or may not be better than a good videocam. But they serve a purpose and tend to provide a bit higher production value to the footage, maybe pay for themselves if you can raise prices? I already had a good comfort level with an SLR, so it's not a big leap for me, but for some it can be tough!

As for the computer, took a gander at cpubenchmarks, you'll be struggling with a Core2Quad platform, and likely underpowered to work with 60p video, unless everything else is pretty optimal - this is where sometimes a newer system has some advantages as it might be better optimized for video. I'd at least have it in your "budget" to upgrade that as well.


@ Dave - I think that's not a fair characterization of ALL consumer cams. MAYBE lower end ones? I know I've not been impressed by some of the footage I've seen from Panasonics in "low light", but I've seen other footage that looked fine - maybe operator error is a larger factor in the end quality than the camera?

No camera can take footage of a black cat in a dark room at midnight with no moon... but with even a tiny bit of light, I can get more than acceptable quality with my Handycams...

I've seen side by side comparisons of small cams with more expensive cams, and done a few myself over the years - you're not typically getting 2-4X "better" images, commensurate with the costs of the cameras, usually it's more of a "pixel peeping" single digit percentage. There is a reason many people use small cams for secondary angles, and sometimes you realize the "image" of the big cam isn't worth the extra $$ if you want to meet your market and make a few $, but a few smaller cams do the trick.

However, while DSLRs are gorgeous, and much better than traditional camcorders in lower light conditions

Well, I can tell from experience that if I put a f2.8 lens on my 550d and use the standard profiles and set it at 1600 iso my cx730 outperforms my dslr in low light


Also, while some DSLRs (e.g. 550D / T2i) can look cheap to buy initially, you'll soon end up wanting some nice fast prime lenses which cost way more than the camera themselves and
Not necessarily true, if you get some Samyang lenses as they are cheaper then the body and a few about the same price.


While the consumer cameras appear at first to do an awesome job in low light, what they are actually doing it applying massive noise reduction and then boosting saturation to give a very plastic smeared appearance with drastically reduced detail. Of course, the B+G could well be happy with what ever they get and it may not be an issue for you.
Again, my cx730 can be placed side by side with my 550d when it gets dark, it even is close to a f1.4 lens on my 550d and using 1600 iso. You can squeeze more low light performance out of a dslr by using the technicolor cinestyle preset, use higher gains and use neatvideo to clean up but don't underestimate those top level small handicams. I bet they even outperform your xf100 in low light. I am against any form of image clean up as it is too time consuming, I don't have to use neatvideo on my cx730 but have been using it more then once on my 550d.

F.i. I"m filming a dance play today and used my nex ea50 with the stock lens as I have to zoom to reframe, the ea50 is a tiny bit better then my 550d in low light if you use the standard profiles on both camera's, the stock lens is a slower one but yesterday during the rehearsals I saw the cx730 put the ea50 to shame and I even have to use the cx730 as a main camera today and put the ea50 as B-cam. Even with teh gain turned all teh way up on the cx730 stays sharper then my 550d and retains color equally good, if not better.
A few days ago I was filming in a church and had a f2.8 lens on my ea50, I needed to go to 5000iso to match my cx730 at it's highest gain, only then the ea50 was noisier and just a little bit sharper, the ea50 has a sharper image then my 550d.

If your previous camera was a gl2 the image quality on a cx730 will be better in every way, so can't see how any client would have an issue with that.

Yep, the 7xx series Sonys are pretty tough to beat when it comes to clean low light performance... definitely better than the VG20/stock lens, or the A65/A77, even with a "fast" prime. They lose some as you zoom in, but that's going to be true on any camera due to lens physics.

There are plenty of "bargain" lenses out there for Sony A mount, I'm sure there are options for other cameras/mounts... but Lens Acquisition Syndrome is always a "risk"! One can pick up an A57 body and something like an 18-200 and maybe a fast 50mm fairly reasonably (used) and have a good still/video camera.


Camera technology has changed a lot since tape based SD... even cell phones are capable of surprisingly good results in many cases nowadays... so I'm sure Kelsey will be "impressed", it's just a matter of finding a happy place between "new toys" and "budget" that makes good business sense.

Well, I can tell from experience that if I put a f2.8 lens on my 550d and use the standard profiles and set it at 1600 iso my cx730 outperforms my dslr in low light

Again, my cx730 can be placed side by side with my 550d when it gets dark, it even is close to a f1.4 lens on my 550d and using 1600 iso......

Noa, I can agree that the 550D is not great. Had one for a while and sold it along with the 60D and 7D. I only kept the 5D2 bodies and then eventually replaced them with 5D3. Now, if you put your camcorder next to the 5D3 I guarantee a whole new story. I can use the 5D3 quite happily at ISO6400 and beyond.

Also, I'd like to bet the camcorder you are using is applying massive NR, which the 550D isn't, but it can be added in post. With the 550D I topped out at about ISO800. After that it was too noisy for me.

The result is, I don't recommend the 550D for weddings, though some people use them quite happily. Coupled with magic lantern and a grip it worked quite well for an unattended camera for a while but I got tired of the not-so-sharp pictures coming from it, even with primes.

The 60D's only good point is the swivel screen. The white balance adjustment is buried in the menus so you can't see the picture as it changes colour. Again, I topped out at about ISO800 on this one then it got too noisy without NR.

The 7D was useful, but only up to about ISO1250 then it got to the point I was wanting to de-noise it.

The 5D2 was useful up to about ISO2000 and then I had to start de-noising..

The 5D3 is unbelievable and I've used shots up to ISO6400 without NR and pushed it to 12,800 with a slight kiss from neat video and it's been totally useable! The only gotcha with the 5D3 is it does need some sharpening in post.

We live in interesting times. I can't imagine what we're going to be like in 5 years, with the likes of the 1Dc showing the way things are going....

Oh, and the Nikon D800 was sharper than any of the Canon bodies straight out of camera, but it starts to get noisy around ISO1600 and is not really usable beyond ISO2500. Sold it.

Quite simply, unless you're in love with the DSLR look and are wiling to put up with the much harder workflow I don't recommend the DSLR route to any one. Camcorders can produce fine looking footage and are much easier to use on the day (in general, subject to their on-camera controls of course).

Small handycams don't look as professional, but they are certainly more discreet. OTOH, audio is always my biggest complaint with small handy cams and I've almost never used audio from them (or DSLR) in a final production.

I should perhaps reiterate that my little Canon HF G10 doe an amazing job in low light, or at least that's what it appears to do at first sight. Once you start watching it at 1080p you see 'why' it looks so good. It's had massive NR applied which robs it of all the fine details. If those details aren't important to you then small handycams are just great!

SLR/SLT is harder to work with, but the results may be worth it. It's worth looking into if you're making a big gear change anyway and have some prior SLR experience. It's a tool that can be handy to have in the toolkit.

I'm familiar with how Canon handles certain "details" from a brief stint with the HV20, that's why I'm shooting the Sonys. I'm sure there is some "digital magic" taking place to keep a fairly clean image even gained up, but I prefer the way Sonys handle, when the lighting is difficult, over Panasonic and Canon... it's a matter of opinion, each brand has it's "look", but I prefer the way the Sonys "look", some like Canon, still others Panasonic. Just because your camera smears or mushes up the details in low light (not uncommon) doesn't mean the next cam does the same. I know the HV was short lived in my lineup because of that general problem...

As far as audio, I'm presuming Kelsey is using some form of dual audio already... camera audio is somewhat of a non-issue when what you need is a "point" audio recording close to the source - the many options to achieve this have been well discussed, but the ability of the camera to record the ambient sound in its immediate vicinity is probably a very small factor in choosing a camera (though I don't like the audio from the SLT's very much, fine for sync but that's about it to my ears!).

if you put your camcorder next to the 5D3 I guarantee a whole new story.

Kelsey shoots documentary style, shoots alone, currently has a gl2 and a limited budget, so I don't think we should even be discussing a 5dIII, with a set of lenses to cover all focal lengths you are easily looking at 5 times the price of what I paid for my cx730. For that extra money I would be fully equipped to handle any kind of wedding. I might even get a cx730, a pana ag ac90 and a set of audiorecorders and still be cheaper off.

Small handycams don't look as professional

Who cares if your output is good? I did add a beachtek adapter and a cheap chinees shouldermount and a hoodloupe so I have a much better grip when going handheld and I can assure you, you will never get that stable shots handheld like I can do handheld with a sony cx that have those magic eyeball.

I always say, it's not the camera, it's the person behind it that makes the difference, not to show off but just look at following video. all slider and tripod shots where done with a cx730 and only the steadicam shots with a dslr, all audio was external and the interviews at the end was with my beachtek adapter. They ask me every year again to shoot that event eventough the guys doing the live projection work with ex1's and a pmw350. When I shot the presentation on the stage the guy with the pmw350 and a tvlogic monitor attached was sitting beside me and I had my cx730 alone on a manfrotto tripod. No that looked plain silly next to his beast of a camera, I had about 500 business men sitting behind me so they could clearly see me. Did that bother me? Not anymore and given the fact that they ask me year after year means they don't care about the size of the camera either, only about what I deliver.

Supply chain award 2012 on Vimeo

For me a camera is only a tool and a cx730 is a very versatile one, would I use it for every shoot? No, I would use my dslr's if I"m doing steadicam or want to get creative shots, I use my ea50 if I want to have controll and better audio capabilities and if I"m working for a client that would not accept a handicam, unfortunately size does matter in some businesses and they like to see that they paid for a bigger camera, then I still would have a cx730 will be in my backpack and my dslr's just in case.

I don't recommend the 550D for weddings
I think anyone working with 5dIII, c100, fs100 and up will tell this and they are basically right,all mentioned camera's are better, no doubt, but it doesn't mean you can't do any weddings or events with it, I do and if you have a limited budget they will serve you as well as any camera, you only need to work around it's limitations (like you have to do with any dslr) and make the most of what you can afford. Give some talented guys a few gopros, let them shoot a wedding and the client might find it better then what the untalented would produce with his c300 camera.

Went and looked at the camera today. Frankly I was impressed. I brought my own memory card and filmed in a bunch of conditions etc. Now I just need to upload it and see what I end up with and if it's workable.

I agree with Noah...I have seen people use AWESOME cameras and end up with shitty results.

I have a good eye. I can edit together a nice piece. I just need a BETTER camera.

Remember my goal here is NOT to end up with the BEST on the market...my goal is to walk away with BETTER than I am using now. Even with this antiquated equipment I am still getting bookings. People like my work. I just want to UPgrade.

I would say that the camera I looked at is as good if not better in low light situations. My real concern at this point is what kind of audio I am going to get from it??

Noa that piece is very well put together. Nice job.