I started a thread here saying that I was going for the HVX, because I loved my DVX, the way it handled and the results I got from the image. However, I feel this new Canon proposition to be a real contender this time.

One of the main concerns I have is for the very long wait for a PAL release. I really don't understand that. More so, I really cannot feel happy for the fact the camera is locked for Pal and Ntsc- needing two different versions for these regions.

The canon, while not offering immediate worldwide compatibility, asks you for a 500 dollar firmware update. Fair enough. The option is there. The HVX doesn't. In order to produce content for specific regions (and yes, you can convert in post, but you definetly lose something from the native format), you have to either buy 2 different region HVX's or do conversions in Post.

The P2 ends up not being a big deal with the Firestore coming. However, it's coming in March, so at that time the canon should have been in the market for about 5 months. Probably a sdi capture device would have come up for the canon by then, or at least announced.

I believe that with some scene file tuning the canon could give a similar picture compared to the Panasonic. However, I really do like my dvx, and I never liked the xl1- never tried an xl2, tough. This time around, I might go the other way. I do feel that the universal recording for the camera HAD to be implemented in the HVX. Because the competition just broke that barrier, and everyone is doing it. This is value for money. I feel that the existence of region specific hvx's is just a form of milking money.

I sincerely hope that an announcement on this matter is done, specially with the PAL delay. Maybe this could prove a benefit in order to add these fundamental extra features?

Speaking of the new Canon, what is the major advantage that the HVX200 might have over it?

Recording in DVCPRO HD as opposed to HDV? Does Canon's uncompressed HD-SDI feature make a difference in this battle? Plus, Canon has again an interchangable lens...

I own a DVX100A too, and I'm very happy about it. Wouldn't even compare it to the XL-1. So, I am not a Canon fan... But now it's time to seriously consider between these two cameras, and I was wondering what is the main reason that might push some of you to buy the HVX over the Canon.

Thanks!

The HVX200 has several advantages over the Canon XL H1 and other camcorders.

Its smaller size and all-in-one form factor, lighter weight and its inherent portability will be a key point for some folks. The ability to remotely control focus and aperture via a pan-handle mounted lens controller will be another -- no other camera in this price range offers this, with the exception of the JVC GY-HD100 (but such controllers are twice as expensive for the HD100). The XL H1 allows remote control of focus and aperture over FireWire but it requires a PC laptop as the control interface.

Both the HVX200 and the XL H1 will offer you the ability to record DVCPRO HD. But in the HVX, this capability is built right into the camera, through the removeable P2 flash memory. With the XL H1, you'll need to cable out to a DVCPRO HD deck on location, fine for studio work but a cumbersome and somewhat limited application in the field... not to mention the extra cost of the deck rental.

Removeable P2 flash memory is in my opinion the single most important advantage of the HVX200. You can record 40 minutes of 720p DVCPRO HD at 24fps on the two 8GB cards in the camera, and you'll have a broad choice of various selectable frame rates in 720p.

See my P2 companion site at www.p2info.net for more info.

I own an XL1 and I love the form factor of both the 1 and the XL2; however, in this arguement, I'm leaning toward the HVX.

The fact that Canon went with HDV took them down a peg or two in my book (i saw it coming, but I was still hoping otherwise). Most of the projects I'm on are low budget and costs are cut wherever possible. Having to rent an HD deck is money that a production would rather put toward what's going in front of the camera. As Chris mentioned above, the HVX does not need a deck to record HD.

Other than that the HVX is a much better form for run-and-gun shooting, and would be much more manageable than the XL when used with non-P+S cinema lens converters like the Micro35 (that adapter with the XLH1, the XL lens, and a 35mm zoom and matte box would make a longer camera rig than a varicam! Not exactly tight-space friendly...) Also, having a real flip out screen as opposed to that novelty eyepiece/ monitor combo that Canon has would be really nice.

Just my 2¢.

[QUOTE=Chris Hurd] Removeable P2 flash memory is in my opinion the single most important advantage of the HVX200.>>>>



This is my number one favorite, "no tape" . I own a SD500 canon digital camera for carrying around. It shoots good video and and I can drop files straight into my computer. Just love it. So P2 is going to be a very refreshing change my production flow.

Pappas

Sergio,
check what Panasonic says in a global site:

"The AG-HVX200 inherits the VariCam's advanced functions and warm, rich expressivity. It allows 24P/30P(NTSC), 25p(PAL) progressive shooting in both 720p and 1080i recording, and it provides a Cine-like Gamma that captures images that are strikingly similar in tone to film."

Took this from this page:

https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/sales_o/p2/hvx200/index.html

As I read it it is both NTSC and PAL.

Both cameras appeal to different sectors. For quick set-up in the field the HVX is perfect. For studio environments or more static set-ups, the XLH1 is perfect. Both have cost advantages/disadvantages. P2 cards are portable but insanely expensive and must be re-used leaving no back up of the source. HD-SDI allows you to go to a deck and at $100 a tape it is less expensive and you have a back-up, however, the HD decks are EXTREMELY expensive. The camera does allow a low cost HDV option though that the HVX lacks.

Until there is a reasonable, affordable workflow, neither will really take off. The HVX will sell a lot more but I venture to guess that most people will still be shooting SD with it for a while. I suspect most companies doing any HD stuff in studio or on location (sports, etc.) will add a couple XLH1's to their arsenal.



ash =o)

I have been reading a lot of these posts, and perhaps this is'nt the post for this question, but one main point still confuses me on the HVX. Does it do true 1080 24p? Is it truely progressive in the 1080 mode or does it do some sort of "cineframe" pulldown or conversion? I keep seeing it listed at 1080i 24p....is'nt that a contradiction? Sorry if I am causing the discussion to take a big step back but I can't seem to find a good answer on to the question. Any clarification would be appreciated.

thanks,
Omar

There are good things and bad things about everything.

Everyone keeps saying that renting a deck is too expensive, yet
you will have to pony up $4K for the P2 cards. Then, how are you
going to archive (or Back Up)? Firewire drives are cheap . . . so cheap they
break without warning. A free repair on say a LaCie drive means
they return it (or a new one) BLANKED. Been there done that.

I always suggest buying two drives for BU, but that is more money.
Burn off to DVD? I have burned
DVDs and waited a long time to have them 'verified' only to put it
back in the computer and
have folders unable to be opened even though the DVD was still
in pristine condition. DVD is NOT 100% safe imo. Okay, so there's
that.

The P2 reader isn't free, and you need more P2 cards in order to
shoot over an hour on location. DLT BU drives are SLOW and on and on.

I think everyone should admit to themselves that moving up to HD
is going to COST more money. The higher the quality of the HD the
more money you can expect to spend. The Canon has HDV recording.
The Panny has a DV tape drive. ALL KINDS OF THINGS TO CONSIDER.
That is what is cool about talking it all over here. We are able to think
about what we do, need and have before jumping into the deep end of HD.

Can't HD-SDI record to an external, portable disk? Why does it have to be tape?

If you could record HD to a reasonably priced portable disk, then the best thing would be to copy from the portable to big desktop LaCie's from which you will edit, backing all up in more LaCie's which you will let rest in peace until you don't need that raw footage anymore. By that time, if those gigs that seemed a lot before, still mean something, you reuse them.

While touching wood in my desk, I can tell you that my 2TB of external LaCie's have never failed for almost 2 years of continuous work.

but one main point still confuses me on the HVX. Does it do true 1080 24p?
Yes.
Is it truely progressive in the 1080 mode
Yes.
or does it do some sort of "cineframe" pulldown or conversion?
No it doesn't. It's genuine progressive.
I keep seeing it listed at 1080i 24p....is'nt that a contradiction?
No. It's exactly how it's handled on the DVX, SDX, SPX, and XL2 -- progressive frames, acquired progressively, are recorded within an interlaced data stream. Which can be captured and extracted to restore the original, pure 24P sequence.

Can't HD-SDI record to an external, portable disk?
No; no such product yet exists. Could it theoretically someday? Sure, but at the data rates that are being discussed, it would take a large RAID of hard disks to handle it. You're talking about a data rate in the ballpark of 200 megabytes per second. Your storage space will also fly by at the rate of a gigabyte every five seconds. Storing uncompressed HD-SDI data on a portable disk isn't anywhere near practical right now.

If you could record HD to a reasonably priced portable disk
Won't happen, if the data's uncompressed. You can record it to disk, but it won't be reasonably priced or portable, it'd be about $15,000worth of a desktop tower with an 8-hard-disk RAID.

Thanks Barry.

Sergio,
check what Panasonic says in a global site:

"The AG-HVX200 inherits the VariCam's advanced functions and warm, rich expressivity. It allows 24P/30P(NTSC), 25p(PAL) progressive shooting in both 720p and 1080i recording, and it provides a Cine-like Gamma that captures images that are strikingly similar in tone to film."

Took this from this page:

https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/sales_o/p2/hvx200/index.html

As I read it it is both NTSC and PAL.

Federico, the camera unfortunatelly is region specific. One camera for Pal, other for NTSC.

This is unnacceptable, in my view. I simply can't understand this move, seeing how ALL the competition is opening the locks on the archaic region specific recording.

I really do agree with the fact that the camera XL-h1 not having a flipout lcd is a down factor. I really love recording with the lcd in the dvx100 for some handheld action shots, and different P.O.V. ( not to forget steadicam shots...)

However, HDV sure is an HD option, compared to P2 only HD and a mini-dv SD only tape drive.

And p2 price sure is expensive. It has the advantage of no capture and speedy file transfer, but that seems important more to a News gattering group than independent filmmakers.

I'm really not so sure about 25F/24F and how it works, but assuming it looks and moves like 24p/25p, and blows up nicely to film, this is indeed a plus for the PAL people to be able to record 24P compared to 25P.

And interchangeable lens, while not essential for movie making, is a plus. Better than adding an adaptor to the built in Lens (with an adaptor like the mini-35).


Well, I believe you guys in the US are lucky since both cameras are coming out in a similar time-frame, but here in PAL the HVX is only coming in March/April. That's 4 months latter than the US camera. That's a very long delay for the euro model. This Gives time for all the trouble shooting, workflow arrangements and stablishment of the new Canon Xl.

...And p2 price sure is expensive...

P2 is NOT the only way of recording HD on the HVX. You can get a Firestore hard disk for "less than $2000", making the grand total less than $8000 for full-out DVCProHD 1080/24p 4:2:2 at 1hr 30min at a time. The HVX + Firestore cost LESS than the stock XL H1.

To me, for independent filmmaking, the HVX + Firestore is much more bang for your buck.

Won't happen, if the data's uncompressed. You can record it to disk, but it won't be reasonably priced or portable, it'd be about $15,000worth of a desktop tower with an 8-hard-disk RAID.[/QUOTE]

This is what I don't understand. If the HVX writes DVCproHD to flash cards (P2s) why can't it do it to a big hard disk? 100GB will always give you more air than 8GB when you are shooting.

P2 is NOT the only way of recording HD on the HVX. You can get a Firestore hard disk for "less than $2000", making the grand total less than $8000 for full-out DVCProHD 1080/24p 4:2:2 at 1hr 30min at a time. The HVX + Firestore cost LESS than the stock XL H1.

To me, for independent filmmaking, the HVX + Firestore is much more bang for your buck.

Jaime,
is this a fact? How do you know?

What has been confirmed is that Focus Enhancements, the folks who
make the DV Firestore solution are WORKING on it. A solution
that can record 100mbps has *not* been delivered and is not due
(to be shown or delivered, who knows?) until NAB in April.

This is what I don't understand. If the HVX writes DVCproHD to flash cards (P2s) why can't it do it to a big hard disk? 100GB will always give you more air than 8GB when you are shooting.
Yeah I've found that odd as well. It couldn't be a question of data rates through the firewire port... Maybe it has something to do with the camera's internal "workflow" with respect to compressing the footage to the p2 card.

A colleague of mine was able to attend NAB, and he was telling me how the P2 slots in the HVX were designed to be modular in that other devices could be made into a p2 form (like an RF transmitter). If that's true, wouldn't it be possible to make a p2-to-firewire(400/800) adapter? You know, like a card with a wire coming out the back? Or for that matter, maybe SDI...

What has been confirmed is that Focus Enhancements, the folks who
make the DV Firestore solution are WORKING on it. A solution
that can record 100mbps has *not* been delivered and is not due
(to be shown or delivered, who knows?) until NAB in April.

very good to hear. thanks.

A colleague of mine was able to attend NAB, and he was telling me how the P2 slots in the HVX were designed to be modular in that other devices could be made into a p2 form (like an RF transmitter). If that's true, wouldn't it be possible to make a p2-to-firewire(400/800) adapter? You know, like a card with a wire coming out the back? Or for that matter, maybe SDI...

The P2 is a PCMCIA card afterall. I use a PCMCIA card in my PowerBook that allows 2 more FireWire ports.
FW800 or SDI on the HVX to get DVCproHD out? Would be just dandy.
Might Panasonic find this a threat to selling lots of P2 cards?

Panasonic is a Business (read: must make money) and i think there is a limit of what they are willing to do for low-budget users.

And this limit is: competition.

For now, the HVX is quite alone. The Canon H1 is 3000$ more.

However, i don't know what "street price" would be for both

Jaime,
is this a fact? How do you know?

Here's the press release:

http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=95565&tsource=3

Perfect. That's it. Seems like THE way to go to me. It will avoid running back and forth from camera to disks all day long.

Might Panasonic find this a threat to selling lots of P2 cards?

We are interested in selling cameras, the P2 cards are only one way to record with this camera. You can record out the firewire port to your computer in a "Capture Now" scenario or you can record to the upcoming firestore, FS-100, for 100 GBs of storage.

As far as it not being switchable between PAL and NTSC, there are 27 formats in the camera that would have to be redesigned to switch to 24 formats in the PAL camera due to frequencies and format adoption, ie 1080/50i-720/50P. Not to say that it couldn't be done but I am not willing to wait another 2 years while they figure out how.

I mean really, we, the figurative we, have been doing 24P/25P for as long as I can remember and interlace before that. Many of the DV/DVCAM movies that were released here not that long ago were all done in PAL, so what is the big deal. If that is what you need to do then do it. Willam Wenders, Land of Plenty released here, US, looked marvelous, shot on 25P dropped to 24P. You all make it sound as if it doen't happen in the camera it is not good. Think again.

Best,

Jan

We've been always trying to imitate film with video. Now that it's possible, I would always shoot 24p as if it was film, edit and care about PAL-NTSC when its time to deliver master copies, not before.

I own a xl-2 camera and as a reply to the starting- topic I have to say that filming with the standart zoom objective and the standart viefinder is not really possible, becouse you can´t get focus "in time".

If you want to film in a more professional way you have to get the manual zoom objective and the black and white viefinder (for the xl-2).

I think, as I have shot footage on the dx100 also, the greatest advantage of the new hvx200 is the manual zoom.

And in case of the new XLh1, where, as far as I can see, the same zoom lens as on the xl2 is used, you have to extra invest for an manual zoom lens (around 2000 $).

(But on the other hand, the hvx200 can not be upgraded with an black and white viewfinder.)

The only advantage of the 20x Original Zoom Objective is (in my oppinion):
I get a good DOF by zooming. And the 20x Zoom is a good tool for that (on the xl-2).

I think the major advantage of the HVX is the codec. Most people are really excited about the DVCPRO / DVCPRO HD codecs that this camera records to.

I think everyone on this board agrees that these codecs are superior to the HDV codecs in just about every bench mark (except for file size).

But the question is, how much better? The CCD's, The DSP, the lens, all have their parts to play in the final image, the codec is just one part.

I've cut two shows with HDV footage from the Sony Z1, and I agree with adam wilt that it "looks better than it has any right to."

It's like trying to tell the difference between a photo comressed in .jpg or .png formats. One is better, but can your eye really see the difference?

Both formats are compressed video, and while I believe that DVCPRO HD is a better codec, I will have to wait for this camera to be released and put through it's paces before I can say that it produces a better IMAGE.

When I read the specs Panasonic is saying : for extended on the spot recording, the P2 card with recorded data can be inserted into the AJPSC060G 'P2 store' external hard drive...which holds as much as 15 4-gb P2 cards
I think that's were you can leave all your data for storage...during shooting.

I think the AJPSC060G 'P2 store' external hard drive works only with PCs and not MACs. Am I right?

I own a xl-2 camera and as a reply to the starting- topic I have to say that filming with the standart zoom objective and the standart viefinder is not really possible, becouse you can´t get focus "in time".




Why not? I shoot with the XL2 with stock lens and VF and love both. I have the 14x manual but the advantages of OIS, the much longer focal range, the realy nice instantly programmable zoom and the nicer DOF on the 20x are why.

As far as needing the FU-1000 VF, I shot with one for all our stuff using the XL1-s and Mini35, but sold it to a freind on this board because I was so pleased with the new color VF on the XL2.

I zoom, pull focus and frame "in time" no problem. Haven't gone back to the studio and found bad focus yet.