I do video editing and motion graphics as part of my day job, and I've been shooting weddings with a photographer I know. I recently shot two weddings (for free) to build up a portfolio, using borrowed equipment.

As i sit down to edit these two pieces, I've realized my downfall is that I haven't made up my mind about what kind of wedding videos I'm shooting for. I pretty much fell into a trap of shooting in between a long form and short form video at the same time before I really figured it out, which i think affected my efficiency and quality. Both shoots contain a plethora of decent B-roll, but my A-roll is pretty bad (bad lighting, focus and camera placement) It was almost as if I sacrificed one for the other. Between the two events, I've shot around 180GB of footage.

What do you seasoned pros think? I realize that short form videos can require more work, editing, and at times equipment. Do you feel that if you're just starting out, would it be best to offer only long-form videos that can be done with a less eclectic variety of shots, and just concentrate on becoming really proficient at setting up for that? Heck, I don't even know if I'm asking the right questions. ;-)

Right now, my equipment mostly consists of:
- Canon XF100 on tripod (A-cam) and shotgun mic
- Canon 60D with follow focus on video monopod (B-cam) with 24-70 and 70-200 and Rhode DSLR mic
- Two Zoom H1n's, one lav mic, and one XLR>3.5mm adapter

Clients want both nowadays.

A short form trailer and a long form documentary edit showing everything ...

You'll just have to practice and juggle both. Being able to do that is a skill that can be developed in it's own right to be honest.

Indeed- and it's a skill I'd like to improve. I would love to be good enough to make gorgeous short-form pieces. I just don't want to get caught up in worrying about things that I don't need to do YET, until I get a grip on just making good, simple videos. I'd rather end up with a great simple video, Than a mediocre video where I tried to do everything at once. The video I'm editing now from one of the aforementioned weddings will never make a good long-form. At best, I'll be able to show it as a sample teaser a few minutes long, which is less than I had hoped.

Agreed that many folks expect both videos... or at least a longer version of the ceremony to enjoy, though we always ask (both before and after) about what they expect and are looking forward to.

Really, you'll just have to figure out what kind of videos you want to make. Some more experience will help.

As for some other things you mentioned:
We use 3 DSLRs, and often end up with 100-150 GB per wedding, depending on how much of the day they hire us for, though we're not very disciplined about when we press the red button. To help, we've started carrying pad and pen and noting interesting moments so they don't get overlooked in the edit.

For us, 3 cameras give us the luxury of lots of angles and cutaways during the ceremony.

During preparation, the focus is on 2 people each with a camera, one for bride, one for the groom. Not that we're tethered to them, but it let's us work on the personal and very random things occurring, whether it's stories being told, or small moments, sometimes in very different places. To do this by yourself you'll have to communicate expectations clearly, like the groom not ignoring you and getting ready when you're not around.

Clients want both nowadays.

A short form trailer and a long form documentary edit showing everything ...

You'll just have to practice and juggle both. Being able to do that is a skill that can be developed in it's own right to be honest.
I agree. Just like the photographer gives them a DVD with 500 images & then an album with 50 of the best images beautifully edited & finished. The highlights is our album. It's also fantastic marketing as even the most modest of weddings can be made to look wonderful for 3-5 minutes whereas 20-30 minutes of cinematic short form style would be like pulling teeth for some weddings & not what the clients want anyway.

Have you seen this thread? http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/wedding-event-video-sample-clips-gallery/516804-shortfilm-wedding.html

That's a pretty nice video. I've been watching tons of AMAZING short form videos, but not really any long form because they aren't as easy to come by online.

IMO ALL short form wedding videos (films...whatever you want to call them) start out as a long form! Why? Well, in the over 2000 weddings I've shot in my career, there are a lot of similarities but there are some differences in each one and how do I know exactly where those differences are going to happen. I live by the rule that I can't edit what I haven't shot.
I've done short and long form (today I do 99.9% long form doc style) and while the short form gets the juices flowing it can be a real PITA IF you only shoot for certain things during the ceremony and get stuck while putting the story together. Hell, you're there, the camera is there, the wedding party is there, why not record the whole thing and use only what you need to use to tell the story.
Back in the mid 90s when I started doing short form I did it as a lark to keep my sanity, I got tired of the 4 hour vhs tape so I did a 30 minute edit and gave both to the B&G. That's the one they watched. When I started doing that as a matter of course I got complaints that they didn't have everything so by doing both it solved the problem. Took a bit longer but worked out well so it's not a new thing to do both and I just don't anyone is going to pay BIG money for a 10 minute trailer type video only unless it's Sten, George or Martin doing it. Do both, you're already there, and already rolling.
Just my $.02 worth.

I can't help but think that price should be a consideration as to what you offer and what you deliver? Is it not?

It seems as though price has gone out of the window nowadays. Seems the only consideration is how much equipment and hours I can throw at this?

Of course price is a consideration that has to be figured in and it will vary from area to area. Here in the Chicagoland area for the most part we are one of the least expensive major markets around but of course there are folks that are getting a very high price for their work and honestly some aren't worth it. The same is true of other areas. I know a guy on the east coast who has been getting 12 to 15K for his wedding for many years while much of his competition is getting far far less.
Naturally the pricing needs to be worthy of the work that is produced and the work has to be worthy of the price being charged.
One could throw 10 cameras at a wedding, spend 100 hours editing and still not be able to charge more than $1000. I'm sure you've seen them just like I have.
Lots to think about for a young person (or anyone) starting in the wedding industry.

It seems to me from this forum that the wedding videographers seem to be plunging like lemmings over the cliff in a shower of dslr cameras, lenses, audio recorders, steadycams, gliders, cranes and large debts.

Everyone seems to be in pursuit of high paying glamorous weddings, where cinematic shallow dof shortforms and trailers seem to be the holy grail. Never mind the fact that dslrs seem to be patently unsuited to wedding filming with their dof, short video length and crap audio, plus awkward shape and balance for hours of wedding work. Multi dslrs are the order of the day if you want continuous ceremony footage and of course multi audio recorders to mic everybody up as the camera audio won't hack it.

Everybody seems to be seduced by everybody else's work, rather than what the punters actually want. As has been frequently pointed out, only a tiny percentage of weddings actually bother with a video at all. Perhaps it is partly because it is perhaps one of the most important and emotional days in a couple's life and although a short video might be painstakingly, beautifully and artistically crafted and wonderful to watch, it just isn't what most people want. So the market for what most are offering remains painfully small compared to the number of weddings out there.

Like Don I have filmed weddings for the best part of 30 years getting on for 2000 weddings. My experience in the UK is that when I talk in depth to prospective clients both before and after the wedding, they want to see every detail of their day. Not a creative masterpiece over a few minutes with musical emotion and glide cam beauty, but the real atmosphere of the day. You do not need to manufacture beauty and emotion, it's there already! All you have to be able to do, is see the wedding from the couple and the family viewpoint and capture it. You may want crystal clear background free vows, but when they say afterwards 'why didn't you get my Sister's new baby screaming it's head off during the vows, we thought it was hilarious', then you have missed an important part of their day.

Most wedding videographers here seem to want to offer their artistic interpretation of a wedding, I want to offer them a detailedl documentary of that one special day that they and their families will watch over and over again for many years to come as part of their family history. This is also my busiest year ever!

Roger

While my schedule this year is about 1/3rd of what I normally do EVERY single bride asked me the same question before booking and again as we communicated before the wedding. "You are going to capture all of the ceremony right? Oh yeah the introductions, toasts, cake cutting, and first dance, father-daughter dance and mother son dance right?"
IOW, they want it all. Some even said that while they would enjoy a short version or trailer to perhaps email to out of town relatives that couldn't make it but they wanted a DVD of everything so they can relive their special day in full. Well OK maybe those weren't the exact words but the same idea applied. While some of it is the fact that they feel they're paying X dollars and they should get THIS for that money mostly it's the fact that most brides don't see or remember many of the events of the day and we not only see things she didn't but we're recording them. We may only use 5 seconds of a particular clip but that's more than what she might have seen with her own eyes. This to me is especially true with parents and grandparents who might not be around in a few years. Over the years I've had numerous couples email or call me and tell me how grateful they are that I got some footage of Granny or Gramps or Mom or Dad because they passed away and now they at least have some footage of them dancing, laughing or whatever. Like I said, and I'm not knocking short form, I was doing it before many were and even before some knew what a videographer was, but if it looks important, it is but if you don't record it then it's passed thru the eye's of history and will never be seen again and then it will be forgotten. As I get on in age, I realize this is something that shouldn't happen which is why my focus for this year and next is video biographies but I digress. I'm not saying not to do short form but I would include that in a long form doc package. Make sure you charge enough to cover yourself but you can justify your price by offering a superb product that the B&G will WANT to watch for years to come.

People who offer long form will tell you that their clients want long form.
People who offer short form will tell you that their clients want short form.
Everyone is biased and will tell you that what they do is the way to go because it is what works for them.
The truth is that there's a market for everyone so you shouldn't worry too much about which way you should go.

So forget about what others tell you for a moment and start thinking about what YOU WANT to do first.

Whether it's short, long or both, what's important is that you enjoy doing it and believe in it.
Build your career around it and the rest is all about finding the right clients for you.

I'm having a dilemma with this as well. Historically I have always delivered a (very) long form edit (full ceremony, one hour of reception plus a short trailer and highlights)

The last couple of years I've offered a short form film (about 30 mins) as well. I spend all my time meeting with the client explaining the differences between the two packages and sometimes they cant make up their minds!

It would be great to offer just one package again that catered for both but it would involve a lot more work for me without being able to up my price to match the increase in editing time.

I often had weddings where they first choose a short form highlight only to realize lots of important stuff had been said at the wedding and after the wedding ask me, "is it still possible to have the ceremony completely?" so now I do film as if I do a long form edit capturing everything and then plan to ask the after the wedding if it's still ok to do the short of form with the highlights or if they want to have a longer form edit with all the important stuff but at a extra costs. This is something I discuss when we first meet, when I see they are in doubt I just tell them to take the short form but that after the wedding they can still decide to have a longer version, it gives them confidence I"m not after their last cent and I give them the opportunity to think it over and make a more conscious decision since it will only be after the wedding they realize how important certain parts where which they did not know before.

It doesn't matter whether you do long form, shot form, video camera, dslr etc.

The question to ask yourself is are you a hobby or a business?

If you are a hobby, purchase all the cameras and equipment you want and don't worry about making money or ROI. You can use your abundance of equipment to make yourself look like a pro.

If you are a business, then you need to make a return on your investment of equipment time, experience etc. And that's odd these topics never take price into consideration

For a business it does matter how many cameras you own, and how many you use. I don't think you should just use them because you have them. You have to take in to account the cost of that equipment and maintaining that equipment. And the post production time that more equipment creates.

The wedding business is full of "weekend warriors" and you can tell that by a lot of the questions that are asked here. And I'm not knocking anybody it's just a fact. Weekend warriors will never take out professional videographers. But they do alter the perception of a professional in the eyes of potential clients. Nowadays the professional may shoot with 3 or 4 cameras and the amateur shoots with 6 or more. It does muddy the water, but talent and relationships always win.

I would suggest for anyone just getting in the business to come up with a "out of the door" price. And that is the minimum price that you can AFFORD to work for. And hopefully you will have some respect for the ranks of professionals you aspire to join one day.

Hi Al

That's a point I always wonder about too. Costing out a gig seems often far from people's mind and well, equipment purchases are another story completely.

One has to be logical here first of all. Yeah great, go out and buy 3 x Sony EX-3's for $30,000 so you can make $15,000 a year from them. I try to keep my gear expenditure to around 10% of my turnover in any one year ...if it's more than that (and I'm not a hobbyist!) then I'm already killing the business income!

OK, this is slightly off topic already but you are 100% correct on the main topic ..it doesn't matter whether you shoot long/short or video/dslr ... If you run you business LIKE a business then you will soon see what your market demand is and what sort of product will slot into it...simple as that. I shoot documentary style which is long form simply because that's what brides in my market want and I choose cameras that do the job best for me (in the middle actually as I use Sony EA-50 which are hybrid video/dslr)

Chris

I also agree that if you are running a business, you need to do your costings carefully to ensure that you are going to actually make a profit. I also agree that it makes no difference if you do long or short form providing you give the client what they want.

What does bother me is that there is a heavy emphasis in the weddings section of this forum towards dslr based, cinematic style, short form wedding video. Newcomers to wedding video here often seem to be seduced by the glamour of the cinematic approach and dslr cameras and lenses, together with some of the beautiful videos linked by members. This will inevitably deflect those asking advice away from the real issue, which is market research in your own area.

Find out what brides really want, not just those who are planning to get married as they are more concerned with the glamour of the day and have no real idea of what they want in a video. It is much more revealing to find out from those that are already married what they would like to see if they did it again. Find out why so few people have a wedding video at all, and target your potential market around what you can sell, not just following what others on this forum do. Be an originator not a follower!

How many times do we see a totally different approach to a tv programme appear, then 6 months later every tv programme maker is producing bucketfuls of obvious clones. The same with cinematic techniques, where something like the famous Jaws shot or shallow dof get copied ad nauseum. Not because the client asks for them or even notices them, but because other producers admire them. The same with equipment, just because lots of similar cameras, lenses and equipment is used by a number of videographers, doesn't make it the best way to go, just the currently most fashionable and probably most expensive.

Build your business around what you can afford, your own skills and comfort zone and your own market research, then you can build whilst earning an income and others will learn from you.

Roger

Roger is a veteran of wedding video production which also means that his business is successful! That's why his advice is well worth following!

Sure it's great to emulate shallow DOF slider shots that will impress you, your mates but not necessarily the bride who is paying you to shoot her video. It's equally important not to try and impress her with your creative skills and hope that is enough to win her over as it's usually not! However it just might be exactly what your brides want! You are the one that needs to find out !

Find out what your market wants and what your clients want and you really cannot go wrong ..if need be try some brand branding to feel out your particular market with run 'n gun realtime doc style weddings offered on one website and then your apparently desired cinematic and creative short form style and see what the demand is on each.

Chris

I also agree that if you are running a business, you need to do your costings carefully to ensure that you are going to actually make a profit. I also agree that it makes no difference if you do long or short form providing you give the client what they want.

What does bother me is that there is a heavy emphasis in the weddings section of this forum towards dslr based, cinematic style, short form wedding video. Newcomers to wedding video here often seem to be seduced by the glamour of the cinematic approach and dslr cameras and lenses, together with some of the beautiful videos linked by members. This will inevitably deflect those asking advice away from the real issue, which is market research in your own area.

Find out what brides really want, not just those who are planning to get married as they are more concerned with the glamour of the day and have no real idea of what they want in a video. It is much more revealing to find out from those that are already married what they would like to see if they did it again. Find out why so few people have a wedding video at all, and target your potential market around what you can sell, not just following what others on this forum do. Be an originator not a follower!

How many times do we see a totally different approach to a tv programme appear, then 6 months later every tv programme maker is producing bucketfuls of obvious clones. The same with cinematic techniques, where something like the famous Jaws shot or shallow dof get copied ad nauseum. Not because the client asks for them or even notices them, but because other producers admire them. The same with equipment, just because lots of similar cameras, lenses and equipment is used by a number of videographers, doesn't make it the best way to go, just the currently most fashionable and probably most expensive.

Build your business around what you can afford, your own skills and comfort zone and your own market research, then you can build whilst earning an income and others will learn from you.

Roger

Solid advice Roger.

It really is all about market research. I don't believe there is any right or wrong in the wedding market. You need to suss out what your clients want.

Clearly video has not been well marketed to wedding clients compared to photography. While around 90% of weddings have a professional photographer around 90% DON'T have a professional videographer. Alternatively if it's not the marketing then maybe it's the product that has been offered that is not wanted by 90% of couples.

While around 90% of weddings have a professional photographer around 90% DON'T have a professional videographer.

I hear the same hear from the people at the townhalls where they perform the legal part of the wedding, they all say they hardly see a videographer.

Clearly video has not been well marketed to wedding clients compared to photography. While around 90% of weddings have a professional photographer around 90% DON'T have a professional videographer. Alternatively if it's not the marketing then maybe it's the product that has been offered that is not wanted by 90% of couples.

Clearly not the case in the U.S. I hardly ever see a wedding without a professional videographer.

There must be some underlying reason that is different elsewhere?

I agree with Al about the US. I don't know the number but I would guess it's around 50 to maybe 60% DO have video. A couple of weeks ago I was at a venue where there were 4 wedding receptions going on. I've worked there a number of times in the past and it's was a movie multiplex when it was bought out and converted to a banquet venue. They did a great of putting it together and have the staff to run up to 6 receptions at one time. Anyway, at the one I was at every wedding was being covered by a videographer. This is not unusual at least around my area. As I've said before, every area, every country is different.

Clearly not the case in the U.S. I hardly ever see a wedding without a professional videographer.

There must be some underlying reason that is different elsewhere?

As someone primarily from the DJ side of things, I can tell you the majority don't have video. As a higher end pro, more of my weddings have video, I notice, but not most... not yet. Of course, the majority of weddings aren't $20,000 - $50,000, either, but those are the kind we're more likely to work. Remembering that there are different client bases: a $10,000 just isn't likely to spend on video, limo, or open bar..

Robert,
I mostly worked high end weddings. But honestly I don't see how anyone in the U.S. can have a $10,000 wedding?

It seems like in the U.S. a wedding is a chance to show just how much money 2 people can waste.

Actually around here you can do a wedding for about 10k. Small, afternoon, Friday or Sunday. Easy menu, 2nd shelf liquor, maybe 4 hour reception including food. Ceremony at the same venue. I know because believe it or not I've done a small handful over the last 5 years. My cost is more than 10% of the budget, the photographer is about the same, a DJ is about the same so they have about 6K left for everything else. These are almost 100% military guys or gals and being a veteran myself, I would almost do it for nothing. Cops and FFs the same since one of my sons is a FF.
I also know of a few other guys that do the same around here so it can be done but it's not big or extravagant.

This is some of the best advice I've heard guys. Fortunately this is a side gig for me so I'm not concerned with paying off tons of expensive equipment, and as I do multimedia production at my 9-5 I got into this so the two jobs can benefit each other through education and practice. I did enough research to figure out what equipment I need, set a budget, and bought inexpensive starter equipment. No loans taken out for stuff I don't need.

Through my day job, I have access to a Canon XF100 for my A-cam and the required accessories. Someone I work with is a weekend-warrior wedding photog, and we started working together so learning to do wedding videos was an approachable idea for me. That being said, I don't intend to undercut or outperform everyone in my area- I just want to offer as best a product as I can and learn as much about video production as possible. I intend to price accordingly of course, and don't have any overly-ambitious ideas of making more money than can be reasonably expected. For now, I intend on shooting solo with 2-3 cams and I will always communicate with my clients what they will get, and also what they could expect to get if they spent more ith someone else who might have more ability and skill.

Sounds like a sensible plan to me Max, good luck with it :-)

Roger

Robert,
I mostly worked high end weddings. But honestly I don't see how anyone in the U.S. can have a $10,000 wedding?

It seems like in the U.S. a wedding is a chance to show just how much money 2 people can waste.

Somewhat agreed, though remember the folks who get married for less, we never see. They have receptions in their back yards with 50 guests and home cooked food (my wedding, for example).

I've worked plenty of $10,000 (or less) weddings at an Eagles/VFW hall, and inexpensive food, photog under $1000, and minimal decorations, where the only thing more expensive than me (as the DJ) was her ring, and maybe her dress, and food for 150-200 people. It's not a consistent market to work, though, since they often chase cheaper pricing. Sometimes, *sometimes*, they're just folks who arranged their priorities and will still go after one or two high end items/vendors if it's something they value.

Our video business is at a crossroads - we're only just over a year old, with 10 weddings done. someone called today for what would be a SPC wedding, just my wife (I'm working elsewhere as a DJ)... not so sure I'm willing to agree because I have no faith her work will be any good.

My wife is *supposed* to be the primary shooter, but seems to refuse to learn from her own mistakes. Looking over Saturday's footage, she still did too much handheld, so shots are shaky.. she won't move aggressively to fix a poor position to shoot from, still has some issues noticing she's over or under exposed, and wouldn't step foot on the dance floor to shoot at all. Very frustrating.