I find recording speeches the most difficult part of the day although I have one wireless Sennheiser lavalier setup and two Zoom H2's, shotgun on cam, I still struggle to get great audio when there are several speakers.Cheering crowds determine the level rather than the voice I'm trying to record.
I was looking at some of these dictating machines and got to wondering if anyone has used them with a lav attached on each seperate speaker (by 'speaker', I mean the person talking), hidden in their pocket and the mic on their lapel.
It's too expensive to have a pro Sennheiser on each of up to five guests.
What do you guys think? I will try to test this out and post back but maybe someone here has already been up this road...

This came on another thread recently and a couple of us recommended these Sony voice recorders http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-ICD-PX312M-Digital-voice-recorder/dp/B004SO3N6W/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1370351147&sr=8-2&keywords=px312. They are mp3 only, but on the highest setting the sound quality is excellent. The onboard mic is mono only but there is a stereo mic socket for an outboard stereo mic and the one that I linked to comes with a Sony Stereo lavalier that is excellent.

I have used it a couple of times now with a stereo splitter lead into the input and two small mics mounted on the head table near the speakers. At that price though, you could probably get one for each speaker. They are much smaller than the Zoom H1, and also have a line input level for recording direct from a house system if required. It records on a 2gb internal memory, which is all I ever use, or a micro sd card if you want more memory. Plug in the included usb lead for instant download.

They are pretty much idiot proof, with no separate input level, rather 4 preset levels which I find very effective. I find I use it much more than the zoom.

Roger

A Yamaha C-24 is more pocket friendly & better quality than a dictation machine. Coupled with a decent lav mic it works very well. However I don't have a problem recording speeches without resorting to putting a lav mic on each speaker. I have done it in the past but nowadays find that two or three digital recorders evenly distributed along the top table gives me good enough coverage. I don't use auto-gain & just do some sweetening of the audio in Premiere Pro with normalisation, compression, de-noising etc

I find recording speeches the most difficult part of the day although I have one wireless Sennheiser lavalier setup and two Zoom H2's, shotgun on cam, I still struggle to get great audio when there are several speakers.Cheering crowds determine the level rather than the voice I'm trying to record.
I was looking at some of these dictating machines and got to wondering if anyone has used them with a lav attached on each seperate speaker (by 'speaker', I mean the person talking), hidden in their pocket and the mic on their lapel.
It's too expensive to have a pro Sennheiser on each of up to five guests.
What do you guys think? I will try to test this out and post back but maybe someone here has already been up this road...

Chris I have 4 Olympus WS311M recorders (nice and slim) and Audio Technica lav mics - I use one for each speaker - have been using them for 5 years and they sound great - I do also mic the PA if present with my Zoom H2 but often the speaker is hit and miss with talking into the mic - my way is safer :)

I find recording speeches the most difficult part of the day although I have one wireless Sennheiser lavalier setup and two Zoom H2's, shotgun on cam, I still struggle to get great audio when there are several speakers.Cheering crowds determine the level rather than the voice I'm trying to record.
I was looking at some of these dictating machines and got to wondering if anyone has used them with a lav attached on each seperate speaker (by 'speaker', I mean the person talking), hidden in their pocket and the mic on their lapel.
It's too expensive to have a pro Sennheiser on each of up to five guests.
What do you guys think? I will try to test this out and post back but maybe someone here has already been up this road...

So are you saying they are speaking simultaneously as in a panel or separately? Are they at a table, a podium?

Why not just setup a mic stand, tape the lav onto the mic stand, and have all speakers speak from that mic stand?

Eric, that would be easy if they were all talking from the same spot, I'd use the Zoom but more often than not, they are scattered up and down the top table or even at different tables sometimes.....and with all the cheering and interjections from the crowd, it can be hit and miss, especially if you have five or more different speakers. Al, they are speaking in turn.

I've just bought an Olympus VN-711PC digital voice recorder from Maplin on a try-it-out basis and after a few tests with a lav mic, it sounds better than what I've been getting and definitely good enough to use.
Four or five of those and I've got great audio all day.
Then on the timeline, I just need to drop the levels of the guests when nearing 0db and use the ambient mics.

This came on another thread recently and a couple of us recommended these Sony voice recorders

Thx for that link, those are really cheap considering the clip on mike is included, was looking for one extra recorder and will order that one. Do you also have a link to that thread where the recorder was discussed, couldn't find it with the search function.

Roger, thanks for the link, I may get a couple of those too. I read a user review of the Sony ICD-PX312M and they mentioned that you couldn't copy audio files from the Sony to a PC, instead they had to use real time transfer with an audio cable???
That seems ridiculous to me. Can you tell me if the device has a USB input for
transfering files?
One more thing, Roger, is the sync absolute over, say, 45 minutes or is there any drift? Thanks.

Here in Ireland, any i've done (which isn't a lot) or attended, the speeches are done from the top table, i haven't been at one where they haven't!
the venue mic is used, so what i've done so far, is to tape my Sennheiser SKM G3 radio mic to the venue's. the mic is then passed along to each speaker, has worked out ok so far!
In the event that theres no mic or i'm not allowed i have two Yamaha C-24's that work great. I did buy an old mic stand for a few euros but haven't had to put it up yet.
:)

This is for Eric but I'm using a quote from Chris:
Eric, that would be easy if they were all talking from the same spot, I'd use the Zoom but more often than not, they are scattered up and down the top table or even at different tables sometimes.....and with all the cheering and interjections from the crowd, it can be hit and miss, especially if you have five or more different speakers. Al, they are speaking in turn.

Eric - maybe with the people in your area this might work but here locally you're talking about needing to give them "Mic Speaking" training lessons. Make that Mic Speaking 1A (for remedial).

At the club I go to we usually have to pass the mic around so speakers in different areas of the room can say their two-cents worth and invariably they wind up holding the mic in every place except near their mouth. Even though people wind up yelling at them that "We can't hear you" and the speaker moves the mic closer to their mouth, then a few seconds later it's back down near their chest somewhere. It's totally frustrating. Every meeting is pretty much the same way, every meeting the people holding the mic have to be told to hold it up near their mouth, and you'd think they'd ever learn??? Geeze.....

Besides not knowing how to hold the mic properly, they don't know how to park, either, but that's another story.

Noa- managed to find the thread link at last, though not sure how useful it will be http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/all-things-audio/516728-lavalier-microphon-recomendation-2.html#post1796872

Chris- there is no problem at all transferring files to a pc. The recorder comes with a usb lead which you plug into the mini usb side connector and the pc, the pc recognises it as a drive and you just drag and drop the file. Not sure what the guy you referred to was talking about, but the one that I bought that I linked to, is simple to transfer. If you use a micro sd card you can of course put that in an sd adapter and straight into the pc. There are some similar looking lower spec models that don't have the usb socket, so he may have been referring to one of those.

As regards drift, I have so far only used it for voice overs for some commercial clients, but I have two files from wedding speeches and a service to drop into the video track over the next couple of days. I don't anticipate any problems as I will simply stretch or shrink the audio track slightly on the timeline to make sure it synchs if there is any slippage. I have found in other edits with other recorders, that you don't notice slippage until it is perhaps 1/5 sec out, in which case, in a suitable pause you can cut the audio and move it back in synch, or use the other method I just mentioned.

Roger

This came on another thread recently and a couple of us recommended these Sony voice recorders Sony ICD-PX312M - Digital voice recorder - flash 2 GB - MP3: Amazon.co.uk: Office Products (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-ICD-PX312M-Digital-voice-recorder/dp/B004SO3N6W/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1370351147&sr=8-2&keywords=px312). They are mp3 only, but on the highest setting the sound quality is excellent. The onboard mic is mono only but there is a stereo mic socket for an outboard stereo mic and the one that I linked to comes with a Sony Stereo lavalier that is excellent.

I have used it a couple of times now with a stereo splitter lead into the input and two small mics mounted on the head table near the speakers. At that price though, you could probably get one for each speaker. They are much smaller than the Zoom H1, and also have a line input level for recording direct from a house system if required. It records on a 2gb internal memory, which is all I ever use, or a micro sd card if you want more memory. Plug in the included usb lead for instant download.

They are pretty much idiot proof, with no separate input level, rather 4 preset levels which I find very effective. I find I use it much more than the zoom.

Roger

EXACT device I use.

Provides fantastic bang for the buck to be honest.

Noa- managed to find the thread link at last
Thx for the link, I just tried to order but they don't appear to ship to Belgium, will see if I can find another supplier.

I take a mic stand as often even the DJs don't have one available for the speeches. I have a quick word to the MC or DJ and request that all speechmakers come up to the mic stand to speak. That way I know where to position my cameras, lights if needed, and I usually attach my wireless lav to the PA mic.

Most venue microphones are low quality rubbish and some DJs use poor quality mics as well, but also if you use your lapel mic, which is usually an omnidirectional condenser, it will be much more forgiving of the distance from the mouth problem experienced. I usually tape the PA mic to the holder so people can't remove the mic and go handheld or wander off with it, leaving my mic behind.

If I know the DJ and trust his gear I will take a feed from him but only do that with a couple of guys.
I understand in some cultures it may not work but here most venues put a lecturn at the end of the bridal table or on the dance floor so it is expected that they will all come to a common place.

Having guests just stand up and talk where ever they are in the room is to be avoided and I discuss this with the couple beforehand, but still need to "educate" the MC. Lots of separate recorders/mics everywhere is incredibly impractical and would make the speech sequence a nightmare to edit.

I use a GH2 B camera on the bride/groom for reactions and use the stereo audio track from here as the audience ambience. Set your record levels on the speech mic, don't worry if the crowd sound overmodulates it; you will pull that out in the edit and let the B cam or your onboard mic cover it.

If you are using Zoom h2s, H4 etc, set your level then switch on limiting or a gentle compressor.

Cheers,

+1 for the Olympus WS311M recorders - but how do you mic the women?

- over here the vast majority of speeches are from a lecturn so that easy, I also encourage the MC to use the DJ's mike so I can plug into his sound system

This came on another thread recently and a couple of us recommended these Sony voice recorders http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-ICD-PX312M-Digital-voice-recorder/dp/B004SO3N6W/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1370351147&sr=8-2&keywords=px312. They are mp3 only, but on the highest setting the sound quality is excellent. The onboard mic is mono only but there is a stereo mic socket for an outboard stereo mic and the one that I linked to comes with a Sony Stereo lavalier that is excellent.

I use one of these Sony's for the speeches. I usually tape it onto the venue mic in the "Voice Notes" setting and it works brilliantly for me as each speaker is speaking directly into it. It's nice and small as well so it's not very noticeable on the mic.

I also use the Sony & lav for the groom during the ceremony to pick up the vows and set it to the "Interview" setting for this and for the price the sound is fantastic.

I scatter H1's around the place as back up but I invariably end up using the sound from the Sony's for everything. I would definitely recommend having one or two of them in your bag.

I work just about the same way as Aindreas and having had the Sony on several weddings and a commercial shoot now, I much prefer it to the Zoom H1. I also use the Sony lavalier mic for the ceremony and have the recorder set for interview. I clip the mic to the lower part of the Groom's jacket and it is then a very similar distance from the Bride during the vows. I am knocked out by the quality of the sound that I have been getting coupled with the small size of the recorder.

Battery life also seems to be exceptionally good compared to the Zoom and I am now looking at getting another 3 of the Sonys ready for my next multi camera stage show recording. I have only found one minor downside and that is that there is no thread for attaching a tripod mount or mic stand, but it is easy enough to make a simple clip, although unnecessary if using a plug in mic.

Roger

Here in Ireland, any i've done (which isn't a lot) or attended, the speeches are done from the top table, i haven't been at one where they haven't!
the venue mic is used, so what i've done so far, is to tape my Sennheiser SKM G3 radio mic to the venue's. the mic is then passed along to each speaker, has worked out ok so far!
In the event that theres no mic or i'm not allowed i have two Yamaha C-24's that work great. I did buy an old mic stand for a few euros but haven't had to put it up yet.
:)

I would never rely on that Rob - only last week the father of the bride, for half his speech, had the mic in his hand hanging down by his side - much safer to rely on a lav mic or a couple of good boundary mics

i'd agree with that, every time I see a house PA mic being offered for speeches, I inwardly groan, knowing what's coming. Unless someone is very used to using a mic, they won't have a clue what to do with it or will feel self concious. I always rely on my own mics for speeches.

Roger

It's not always possibly to mic the person speaking, like when a woman speaks depending on what she is wearing or they might have several persons speaking at the same time and pass the mike around. I always connect my tascam dr40 to the dj's system whenever I can and until now I have had good results with that, or I strap a yamaha c24 on the mikes handle with velcro tape and place a backup mike in front of a soundspeaker whenever possible, has worked out well for me so far. Ofcourse you will have that occasional person that holds the mic halfway his waist but if the dj doesn't react to that I will if I can, it might not be that polite to interrupt a speaker but at least I would save the dj some headache when he is trying to compensate for the too low volume and the guests will be happy as well because they can understand what's being said, not to mention the sound quality on the dvd will be a lot better.

The amateur mic users who hold the mic so close that it's almost resting on their chin are the worst so if it isn't actually distorted the sound is full of plosive pops.

You can't have it all at weddings :) It will always be one of those events where you never will have full control on what is happening so backup is always essential.

In the UK. the vast majority of wedding speeches are conducted from the head table, where the 3 main speakers are all seated, Bride's Father, Groom and Best Man. although PA mics are sometimes available, I always ignore them and put either a portable recorder with a splitter to 2 mics on the table or 2 recorders with a mic each

I rarely mic the speakers directly, preferring to have the mics equally spaced on the table to get some of the room ambiance and guest reaction, but no further than about a metre from them to get good clarity.

Roger

I just put together in my blog on ways to capture great audio at weddings. Feel free to comment.

Attaching Voice Recorder to Handheld Microphone to Capture Audio | L.A. Color Online Blog (http://lacoloronline.com/blog/?10267-Attaching-Voice-Recorder-to-Handheld-Microphone-to-Capture-Audio)

I have stayed away from the Sony 312 due to the mp3 only format. However, this thread is making me reconsider. The price is right for sure. The dimensions show it nice and small (1.5" x 4.5" x 0.84").

To those currently using this: are you getting satisfactory results using it without a lav? B&H doesn't show it comes with one. What are you using? Thanks!

I am using RODE PINMIC. It's the Long Pin version works especially well with thicker jacket. The mic pin through the fabric. There is no visible cord.

RODE PinMic Miniature Omnidirectional Microphone (Long Pin Version) | L.A. Color Online (http://lacoloronline.com/product/?PINMIC-RODE-PinMic-Miniature-Omnidirectional-Microphone)

I am using RODE PINMIC
While that looks like a very clean solution I"m sure my clients won't be happy when I tell them I'll be pressing 3 pins right through their expensive clothes, it might not be an issue but just the thought would most probably have clients refuse me using it.

It was never an issue. The 3 pins on PinMic actually fine enough to go through the "holes" fabric. The pin are actually finer than the pin they use to pin chest flowers.

Also, most of the groom's blazer are rental.

I believe you it won't be an issue but try convincing the client :) They just see something with 3 pins and you telling them it will have to go right through their new and expensive vest. :)
Even on a rental you's have to pay for damages, while that won't be the case the client might fear it will be.

Oh I also have a Giant Squid lav mic as backup. But after using the Pinmic, I seldom use it. The pinmc comes with a silver mesh cap too. I am experimenting ways to mic the bride too. Will report later.

I have been using the PINMIC at weddings for the past two years. It is awesome. Nobody ever refuse to wear it. Like I said, the 3 pins are finer than those they use to pin flowers on chest. Those left holes on the brazen, PINMIC won't.

I believe you it won't be an issue but try convincing the client :) They just see something with 3 pins and you telling them it will have to go right through their new and expensive vest. :)
Even on a rental you's have to pay for damages, while that won't be the case the client might fear it will be..

I think you are worrying about something will never happen. You don't have to convince the groom for anything. Just go do it. Then when you pin on their chest, it's close to their face usually people will look away. But I can tell you this, never once any groom complain about. Usually they were just wondering what that is and say how cool it is.

I just put together in my blog on ways to capture great audio at weddings. Feel free to comment.


I have had good results as well with taping my yamaha c24 onto the mike handle, has saved me more then once from bad audio because there was no other way in getting it because the soundspeakers where mounted high up against the ceiling and the dj couldn't provide me a line.

I have stayed away from the Sony 312 due to the mp3 only format. However, this thread is making me reconsider. The price is right for sure. The dimensions show it nice and small (1.5" x 4.5" x 0.84").

To those currently using this: are you getting satisfactory results using it without a lav? B&H doesn't show it comes with one. What are you using? Thanks!
Sony have two packages the 312 without a mic & the 312M that comes with the little stereo lav mic. It doesn't seem possible to buy the mic on its own. Don't forget that it's marketed as a Dictaphone so presumably many purchasers have no need for a lav mic.

Byron - As Nigel mentioned, the Sony 312 comes in 2 versions, so I bought the one with the Sony Lav, which is a stereo lav and I am very impressed with it. I also have a number of other lavs that also work fine with the recorder. The 312 has an onboard mic which is mono and although I have only used it once, it seems perfectly useable.

I was initially put off by the mp3 only, but as just about everyone uses mp3 for music listening, decided it couldn't be that bad. I have to say that at the highest setting 192kbs it is very sharp and clear and I really can't hear any difference to the higher settings on the Zoom H1. Because of the size, clarity, battery life and convenience of the Sony, the H1 tends to get used as a backup now. There is also the convenience of 2gb onboard memory with the Sony which is enough for several hours recording aswell as the micro sd card slot.

I have just ordered another two 312Ms so although at £38 each they are slightly more than I payed for the first one, I really don't think that anything comes near them for the price.

Roger

I am having trouble finding a US supplier with the "m" version.

Roger, I just noticed your location. I spent a semester in Cambridge as a part of an exchange program with my university. I loved it!! So beautiful there. I am jealous of the events you must get to film. I am planning on bringing my family back with me once my youngest can handle the flight.

I tend to just use onboard sound recording for speeches as the DJ's speakers at the reception always blast the toasts through the room loud enough. Maybe its time to start going the extra mile. Just sounds really difficult to mic both toasts, not sure if its worth it

Hi Byron,
I just did a search for the 'M' version and can find them all over the world except the US, very strange! I wouldn't worry too much though as just about any lavaliers with a standard 3mm tip and double ring plug will work with it. I have a couple of really cheap ones that give very good results and an Audio Technica that is more expensive but gives great results. A simple adapter also allows me to plug in full size mics like the Shure SM 58, SM 57, Audio Technica ATM 21 and various others. I have also plugged my mixer line output into it for recording a live music show.

Cambridge is a fantastic city and a great source of work. I have filmed weddings at many of the university chapels over the years and am currently taking some 3d photographic shots of the city.

Roger

I have had good results as well with taping my yamaha c24 onto the mike handle, has saved me more then once from bad audio because there was no other way in getting it because the soundspeakers where mounted high up against the ceiling and the dj couldn't provide me a line.

Hey Noa, I've been following your lead on this since I first read you mention this idea months ago. Have purchased two and gaffer them to microphones when I have to (if I can avoid it, I don't -- I don't like seeing them in shot). But -- do you find that the Yamaha C24 is sometimes "temperamental"? Meaning -- it stops recording after a minute for no apparent reason? (And it's not because I've accidentally left it on standby; I've sat there and watched the device and seen this happen.)

This has happened to me a few times. If I reformat the micro SD, that seems to solve things every time (note: I always format all my cards before I start a wedding, so I'm skeptical it's a formatting issue that's causing this). The main consequence is that I can't record, press hold, and forget. I need to come back and check to make sure they're actually running.

Anyway, curious to know whether you or anyone else has had similar experiences.

I would replace the card, I have not yet had this issue (knock on wood) with my yamaha.

Possibly a card issue, you're right. But there was one wedding where it seemed to happen with both my Yamahas at the same time, so that would mean at least two cards! Ah well... Will just keep checking for the time being. When they work, they work beautifully, and last surprisingly long on just one battery.

My Sony ICD-PX312M just arrived. It's a little larger & more plasticky than the Yamaha C-24 but sounds OK. However there doesn't seem to be any way of adjusting the recording level except delving into the menus & adjust the mic sensitivity (high, Medium or Low). Despite the fact that the lav mic is stereo the recording appears to be mono only.

I will have to see how it works "under fire" but the lack of recording level adjustment is a bit disappointing as with these little digital recorders the Auto recording level is usually disappointing & I have found with the Yamaha C-24s & Zooms that I have that it's preferable to record at a low level so it never gets over-driven & then boost volume in post.

It's still a very neat & cheap device.

Most lav mics are mono only. It duplicates the same content to left and right channels.

the lack of recording level adjustment is a bit disappointing

That put me off as well, though I did see in the manual that there is an "intelligent noise" feature that maybe can compensate.

But the breaker for me was no tripod mount screw, as with the yammy, because I use friction arms and mini-tripods a lot to place devices near but not on the participants. The supplied Sony lav looks rather large - though you don't have to use it obviously; I find the Giant Squids are fine for wedding work.

The Zoom H1 is bigger than all these but not much bigger and I have yet to find a client who cannot slip one into their trouser pocket. I also carry small belt pouches that just fit the H1's but they never seem to be needed so they just act as travel protection in my bag. You also have much greater headroom in post to push the H1 files if necessary - if you have recorded at a high quality level in the first place.

I always set my H1 levels manually. If close but not on a normal speaker, 90%. If on a lav on a speaker 85%. If on a loud priest 65-70%

All these look like toys to me. For a device that looks the part and is also very compact it has got to be the Sennheiser G3 transmitter. BTW I don't think I've come across a venue yet that is using the new UK Channel 38 for their inhouse wireless.

Pete

Most lav mics are mono only. It duplicates the same content to left and right channels.I know that & indeed all my other lav mics are mono but this Sony one is labelled 'Stereo' plus 'L' & 'R' but the recorder appears to be mono.

Hi Nigel, I think you are missing a couple of basic features on the Sony. You don't need to dive into the menus to adjust the input levels. Just press the 'Scene' button on the front, then the left/right buttons to select between meeting/voice notes/interview/lecture/audio in. They are different mic levels, with Voice Notes lowest sensitivity and Lecture the highest. If you are close micing, set it on Voice notes, for vows I set it to meeting and put the mic low down on the Groom's jacket, to pick up B&G equally. The presets work surprisingly well.

The Sony records normal left/right stereo except with the onboard mic which is mono, and the Sony lapel mic with the 'M' model is definitely stereo. I also recorded a stereo recording from a mixing desk last week, using the audio in setting and it worked very well. If you want to check the lav, just plug it in, press record and lightly rub each end of the mic. On playback with a pair of stereo headphones you will hear it is clearly stereo.

Hope that helps,

Roger

Forgot to add that if you plug the usb out of the Sony into a pc, you can access the internal folders for cutting and pasting the audio, and in addition there is an included folder that contains a full pdf manual.

Roger

Thanks Roger. I assumed that it's actually using AGC or maybe just a limiter. I shall have to do some testing & look at the waveform in Audition.