Ok guys I shot a job with the VG 30 yesterday I was so disappointed with the results I took it back to the store today. The audio was so bad that I just can not live with it and I do not want to shoot separate audio. I was using a sennnheiser wireless mic that I have been using for years so it was not the mic. The sound was just dull. I have cleaned it up in post enough that I think I can get paid. But I never want to go thru that again. So I returned it. I am stuck with the Metabones adapter and extra batteries and charger that I bought to go with it. I am thinking about the EA50 I am going to have to read what others say about the audio. This makes me miss my V1 the sound on it was always so clear. Oh well back to the boards.

You returned the VG30? Why? Because you did not take the time to understand how it works? If the sound was 'dull', you probably had a monumental impedance mismatch or you were trying to plug a mono microphone into an unbalanced stereo jack. Either way, you should have thoroughly tested this before your professional engagement.

I use a broadcast quality, 48 volt phantom powered Rode NTG3 with my VG20, plugged straight into the aux mic socket via a custom transformer equipped XLR to unbalanced phantom adapter and the sound is simply stunning.

Is it possible there is a difference between the models? Far as the 20 goes, the on-board mic is decent - better then a DSLR for sure, but not as good as even a JVC GYU100. Kind of a 'tweener camera for sound.

In terms of using outboard mics, I've had mixed results. Fact is, it's not terrible easy to control the input of sound, or the monitoring of said sound with these cameras. You have to go into the menus to change values and let's face it, the way the VG series show/measure sound is clunky too.

I love my little VG20, but sound isn't something it does terribly well. While XLRs might be asking a bit much, a small knob to control sound input isn't. That's where models a step up (like the EA50, the AF100, FS100) have a clear advantage. Is it enough to return the camera? For me, no - but all I shoot is narrative work. A lot of my stuff's going to be ADRed no matter what.

But if I was shooting docs, weddings, or news gathering, it might be a different situation.

And it's not always practical to test equipment, esp if you don't live in a bigger city. True you can buy and send it back, but that is a massive hassle, esp if you've bough anything else with the camera (which most people do). Second, many people would blanch at spending $700 on a mic, and another $150 on an adapter. After all, that total cost is about what a new VG20 is going for right now.

Simply put, with that extra money you could buy an AF100 or (almost) an AE50.

I've heard good things about the Sony ECM-CG50, but have never used it. A possible solution in any case.

Amazon.com: Sony ECM-CG50 Shotgun Microphone for NEX-VG10 and HDR-FX1000 - Black: Camera & Photo (http://www.amazon.com/Sony-ECM-CG50-Microphone-NEX-VG10-HDR-FX1000/dp/B0043EV206)

So what you are saying is that on the VG-30 you can not just plug in a Sennheiser G2 wireless mic adjust the volume and it work. Like it does on four other Sony cams that I have tested. Including two Sony V1s Sony HC-1 and Sony TRV520.

Ron, the VG20/30 employs an unbalanced, high impedance stereo 3.5mm mini jack as an aux. mic input. If your Sennheiser G2 is not stereo, it will not work. Does your microphone have a mono plug or stereo plug? If it is a mono mic but has what looks like a stereo TRS 3.5mm plug, it is probably a 'balanced' mono output. If you plug this into an unbalanced stereo input such as found on the VG20/30, very poor quality audio will be the result. As a professional video maker, you need to understand these different systems. Audio has often been the poor cousin of video but good quality sound is always what separates a professional from an amateur.

John, I built my own balanced XLR to unbalanced adapter box for around $35 and it delivers 48 volt phantom power too, if required. (for the NTG-3) I put a 'real knob' on the box so I can adjust the audio volume without going to the VG20 menu. It works very well.

Any chance of buying one Craig?

John, the time for me to assemble one then on sell it would make it too expensive for most semi professional users so wait till I publish the design, pictures and parts list, then anyone will a bit of soldering skill could make one up. The reason Pros like XLR connectors is they set a 'standard' - XLR to XLR works so there's a trap for new players when trying to interconnect consumer equipment. I could sell my design as a 'kit of parts' but then again, some of the parts are sourced from North America so that may not be very efficient.

The Sennheiser G2 has a stereo plug.

I also tried it with a Beachtek DXA-6 XLR adapter with the same results. The beachtek setup works well with my Canon 7d.

I use a Sony wireless mic on my VG30 all the time.
Works great, this little camera rocks.

Cairns Video & Media Productions | Photography, Video , DVD & Fly Through Virtual Tours (http://www.flykam.com.au)

No Ron - it doesn't! It is a mono,unbalanced output, and the supplied CL-1 has two of the circuits shorted together, to provide the feed for cameras. It's also a pretty hot output, which often forces the camera's agc circuit to work hard - which also does little for the sound. I expect you reduced the receiver output to match it, but perhaps not enough.

Now the problem. If your camera is really expecting a stereo input, then you are also going to short out one channel with the supplied Sennheiser cable. The XLR cable supplied is also converted in the plug to unbalanced.

The sound design of the camera is quite basic, and I have no idea if the agc is ganged across the two audio channels, so with one being fed nothing and the other loud audio, maybe the cabling needs re-assessing. Me, I'd make up a custom cable that splits the receiver audio to both channels, a differently wired shorted cable. Knock the receiver output down, and try again. What is certain is that you cannot expect to take it out the box and connect kit to it where there are so many things to consider.

What about the Beachtek DXA-6 that takes two XLR inputs and converts them to a stereo mini plug. That should work right.


Here is the description from B&H
The DXA-6 Dual XLR adapter offers 48 Volt phantom power on both inputs for use with condenser microphones, and is universally compatible with any camcorder. Two sources may be recorded simultaneously, and each input may be recorded on a separate audio track, making it possible to mix both channels individually during editing. The unit provides channel separation adequate for recording timecode and audio simultaneously and the shielding and XLR connectors are of a professional quality.
1. Two input channels allow recording of two sources on separate tracks for post audio mixing; both channels have a dedicated mic/line level switch and trim potentiometers for seperate level control 48 Volt phantom power on both channels for use with professional Condenser Mics Auxiliary Mini-Jack on right channel for wireless Mics Dual MIC/LINE level switches for connection of Mics or CD and Cassette players and other line level sources Mono/Stereo Switch for single input recording Standard 9 Volt battery powering LED battery power Indicator

I looked into the Beachtek units and they are a good design but if you read my essay on Phantom Power for the VG20/30 in RedSharkNews, you'll see that as Tascam DR-40 PCM recorder is actually cheaper than the Beachtek unit. (around $140 on ebay, out of the USA)

The DR-40 can be used stand alone to record separate audio or send the STEREO 3.5mm mini jack output direct to the VG20/30 for true sync sound. It also offers 2 or 4 channels at up to 96/24, plus 48v phantom out, plus mic or line XLR level inputs. Not much larger than a pack of cigarettes, you only need to secure it on or under your camera.

Another interesting idea Craig! I have the DR40... it's a nice unit, but it's exhibited some wonky behavior (like input levels rising on their own), even after resetting the firmware.

Very clean recorder (when working properly).

All that said, I hate the idea have needing a 2ndary unit like the beechtech or DR40 - it complicates things, and at least with the DR40 you need 3 AA batteries. And the DR40 eats batteries like they were candy.

But it is an option for sure (one I'll be checking out soon)! Keep those great ideas coming Craig...

My DR-40 has performed faultlessly to date and given the complexity of my rig, adding the recorder to the mix is no drama but a simple alternative was one of the reasons I developed the small XLR to 3.5mm black box.

I want to thank everyone for your time on this problem. I have tried several mics using the Beachtek adapter and directly plugged into the VG3O. The sound quality is just not up to my standards. It may be that my VG30 is flawed. But honestly that was just the last straw with this cam. When I got it I was disappointed in the 24p it would only give a good picture in auto mode. In any other setting it displayed banding in the image. Not that big of a deal since the company I work for only works in 30p. But the VG30 doesn’t do 30p. No big deal 60p converts easily to 30p. I hate a touch screen but not a problem in manual mode you have the iris control shutter speed, white balance and gain available. I could live with that but the poor audio was just the straw. So I am glad you guys have good results with your vg30s. I am moving to a more professional cam. Thanks again.

Ron, at the end of the day, the VG20/30s are cheap 8 bit 4:2:0 consumer Handycams so if you need a more professional (Sony) camera, consider the F3.

As for banding, this may be an issue with the NTSC versions but I have never seen this present in any pictures from a PAL VG20. I recently sent some 50i and 50P clips shot with my VG20/Zeiss combo to a professional independent broadcast editor who edits TV commercials, TV series and short films on Lightworks, Edius and Avid NLEs. He is very highly regarded in the Australian high end digital HD market so works with pictures shot from several different camera platforms, sent from crews working right around the country. He was astounded by the quality of HD from the VG20/Zeiss combo saying he had edited pictures from cameras costing five times as much which didn't look as good.

PS: The only negative comment he made was concerning temporal aliasing which is why he recommends always shooting 50i as opposed to 50p for any work intended for DVD, BluRay or broadcast TV.

In 60p the picture was great. I wonder if the difference in 24p mode is the NTSC vs PAL. Anyway thanks for the recommendation on the F3.

Huh. I haven't seen any banding shooting 24p.

And I wouldn't call them cheap consumer video cameras - if your consider them consumer cameras, they're actually on the very high end of pricing (esp as most people just use their iPhones now). If you consider them pro/prosumer cameras, then yeah, they're decently cheap (assuming you already have the lenses, batteries, etc).

In the end, the best way to get good audio is either having built-in XLRs, or completely separate sound. While Craig's solution is novel, it does add a layer (or two) to what is already a tough thing to wrangle, that is to say, good sound. It involves an extra cord (at min), the DR40, batteries for the DR40, and making sure that the levels from the DR40 are playing nice with the sound input on the VG20/30. All w/o having access to a simple knob to adjust either sound input or headphone levels.

Cords tend to pick up buzzes or get lost or broken. Batteries die. Sound recorders can malfunction,/get lost/dropped etc. Even extra bit of gear is an extra bit that can go awry (nah, WILL go awry at some point).

All of the above can be avoided by using a camera with a simple XLR input.... which puts you into the AF100/FS100/AE 50 pricing zone at a minimum. I tend to agree that, for the price, the VG series produces the best bang for the buck. The relative ease of use, toughness, and picture are all good values.

But quality sound isn't one of them. Not saying it can't be done, rather that it can't be done easily or 100% predictably. For a one man crew, or a no-budget indie, that can be the death knell if you're relying on the camera to give you great sound with no hassle. In other words, depending on the producer's/shooter's need, the VG30 might not be for them, regardless of bang-for-buck image quality.

One last thing - virtually every camera now being used under the $10K mark is a 8 bit, 4:2:0 camera. The Panny AF100, Sony FS100, FS700, the Canon Mark II, Mark III, 7d, C100 - all are 8 bit, 4:2:0 cameras. Even the $14,000 Sony F3 Craig mentions records 8-bit 4:2:0 color space internally.

Which means - at least to me - that the VG20/30 pricing is appropriate, at least as video quality goes. Only you can decide if those XLR inputs are worth the extra dough or not (and it sound like they are).

Hi Ron

The audio quality on the EA-50 is the best I ever had .. My Panny AC-130's were awful despite being the same price ..I guess the VG30 just doesn't have enough space to put XLR sockets on it?? It's a pity that Sony don't make an XLR module like Panasonic do for their smaller cameras so you can have the XLR functionality when you need it. What I really liked on the 50 was the totally adjustable input levels on the XLR (My Panny's gave you -40, -50 and -60db only) Also the auto level control on the 50's XLR channels is awesome.. you can flip to auto and there is none of the old fashioned "pumping" ...audio level is simply maintained for you thruout a clip and very accurately too.

All cams have their quirks so you might just have to work around this one if you want the VG30

Chris

Well said John. That sums up my feelings about the VG30 perfectly. I tried it and it is not for me. The picture was nice. Chris the EA50 looks interesting. I am also looking at the NEX FS100 and the Canon C100. This is a great forum where you can go and bounce ideas off of people that have the expertise to give an informed opinion.

Thanks Ron. To me, the FS100 remains the best bang for buck camera for those needing more control over the image plus XLR inputs. The AE50 looks interesting, bust at only a few hundred less the FS100, I'd say it's over priced by about a grand (I couldn't find anyone selling w/o the servo lens, which no doubt adds just about that much to the cost).

Simply put, the FS100 is going to produce the better image of any Sony short of the F3 or higher camera (and yes, even better then the FS700, who's real strength is in high speed shooting and 4K upgradability).

Of course it all depends on what you need the camera for. Wedding/church shooters seem to love the form factor of the AE50. There's no ND wheel in the FS100 (a complete non-factor to me, but to some a huge thing).

For me, the Canon C100 is insanely over priced. It seems to have all the negatives of the C300, w/ few of the benefits. And while I'd never buy the C300 either, it does have the magical 4:2:2 50Mb/s that some shooters have to have to get on TV, and it can dang near see in the dark. Of course, even at $14,000 on sale, it still won't do 1080 high speed shooting of any kind and is still an 8 bit camera.

And there's always the AF100, but it seems to be a tough nut to crack as far as getting stunning images out of it, uses MFT mount, and is no-where near as sensitive as the Sony flavors.

Truth is, if you want XLR inputs and a large sensor, there's only so many options. For me, as much as I love the VG series, my next camera has to has XLR inputs and a SDI port. I'm hoping to squeeze every last drip out of the VG20 b/c a wave of 10/12 bit cameras can't be far away.

I thought there was an optional XLR module for the Vg30? Could be wrong but the last time I looked, I thought it was too expensive for what it did so I built my own. Just because a manufacturer puts an XLR socket on a piece of audio equipment does not immediately make it 'professional'. I have seem many audio mixers with XLR sockets wired so that any balanced microphone plugged in is immediately rendered unbalanced and subject to hum and noise. It also depends on the quality of the pre-amps and A/D conversion chips and good ones tend to be expensive.

Unfortunately there is huge amount of ignorance and misunderstanding surrounding audio with consumer gear. The VG20/30 use 'unbalanced' 3.5mm stereo aux mic sockets so ideally, you would simply plug in an unbalanced stereo microphone. There are plenty of these available very cheaply and they will work well.

However, if you have a good quality, three wire balanced shotgun mic such as the Rode NTG3 or Sennheiser 416, you're at a loss. Assuming for a moment that the VG20/30 audio pre-amps are of 'acceptable' quality and you wish to use your balanced XLR microphone, you still can. All you need to buy is a cheap transformer equipped 'XLR to 6.5mm' converter. They are only $15 on ebay and to use one with the VG20/30, you only need to correctly wire up a 6.5mm socket to 3.5mm mini plug.

These converters are designed to do two things at the same time: they match the low impedance required by your XLR microphone and convert it to a signal suited to the Vg20/30's high impedance microphone input. They are small enough to tape on or under the camera but I built my own custom adapter around one of them but added 48 volt phantom and a 'gain control' knob so that I could set the audio levels without referring to the camera's menu.

see: Hosa Mit 435 Audio Adapter Phone Mono 6 3 mm M 3 Pin XLR F | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hosa-MIT-435-Audio-adapter-phone-mono-6-3-mm-M-3-pin-XLR-F-/130854036535?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item1e77822437)

PS: Hosa also make a pre-wired XLR socket to what appears to be a 'stereo' 3.5mm mini jack on a short flying lead. Although it looks like the perfect solution, it may in fact be a balanced, mono TRS plug so you would need to check the wiring diagram.

OK guys I just ordered the Sony NEX-FS100UK form B&H to replace the NEXVG30. Thanks for all your help. I think the FS100 will suit my needs well.

Excellent choice Ron as you get the F3's superb sensor in the FS100. Although it is virtually the same size as the sensor in the VG20/30, it has far fewer but larger photo sites or pixels: designed for HD video, not stills.

Hey guys I sold the VG30 and bought a FS100. I have a couple of batteries and a charger that did not get returned for sale in the classifieds section.