Noticed someone selling an EX3 on Ebay and instead of the SxS cards they had a pair of these DigiGear brand Expresscard Adapters and a pair of Transcend 32gb media cards. Claimed to be recording on these at the highest HQ setting.

According to the description, this DigiGear adapter is designed for use in SxS systems up to 64gb.

All the reviews for it say it does, in fact, work flawlessly in the Ex1 and EX3 camera. That seems plausible since the Class 10 SDHC/SDXC cards are rated for a minimum of 10MB/sec transfer rate (80Mb/sec) and the data rate for XDCAM at the EX3's HQ setting is only 35Mb/sec. Plenty of head room.

Anyone using them? The Adapter is only $30 and you can get 32gb cards for around $25... or less.

For me, as a renter, the cost of the cards can be deadly. I paid $75 for a 32gb SxS last week. I'd much rather go this route, own the cards, and not have to do the transfer until I get home or, if I do have to hand off the files on location, still have them on the cards should issues arrive later on.

So for a $25 (32gb) card that gives me about two hours worth of shooting. I can easily afford to spend $100 to have a set of these to go all day.

I use adapters...mine are MxM brand. they really haven't presented any issues.

I will say they seem to close the file a bit slower after you stop recording that an SxS card does...a double-punch can create a problem, but I think I did that once or twice in the first week I had the camera and I haven't since...and I started using them on the original EX1...

I would recommend getting 16 GB SDHC cards unless you need to roll continuously longer for some reason (and I span files regularly without issue). I'd rather risk a data failure on a small, cheap piece of media in the smallest increments possible.

I use adapters...mine are MxM brand. they really haven't presented any issues.

I will say they seem to close the file a bit slower after you stop recording that an SxS card does...a double-punch can create a problem, but I think I did that once or twice in the first week I had the camera and I haven't since...and I started using them on the original EX1...

I would recommend getting 16 GB SDHC cards unless you need to roll continuously longer for some reason (and I span files regularly without issue). I'd rather risk a data failure on a small, cheap piece of media in the smallest increments possible.

Am now using my MxM cards with 16gb and 32gb Sandisk Extreme and a few older 16gb ATP cards. Good media is the key. The MxM adaptors themselves are long proven to be reliable.

My view on 32gb cards is that I'd rather half fill or 3/4 fill a 32gb card than fill a 16gb card right up.

Also key to test media before you first use it. I leave my camera pointing at a TV screen with fast moving footage on it and shoot overcranked to 50fps until the card is full. If the card can cope with that, it will be fine for normal use.

Marcus: "I'd rather half fill or 3/4 fill a 32gb card than fill a 16gb card right up."

That's fine too...most users aren't that disciplined.

If you aren't rolling continuously, you can half-fill any card you like.

These days I think the most under-recognized risk in the industry outside of the feature entertainment sector where bonding is part of the business, is how much of your day's work is at risk sitting on media inside a camera drive that can be destroyed any number of ways while the camera is being operated, moved, power cycled, etc. through a normal shooting day...

Smaller mags just forces better work habits. It's all personal preference of course.

"your day's work is at risk sitting on media inside a camera drive that can be destroyed any number of ways while the camera is being operated, moved, power cycled, etc. through a normal shooting day..."

Tim:

Are you suggesting to remove the card from the camera when not shooting... moving, loading in and out, breaking for lunch??


BTW: Do you folks use the SXS card reader to ingests these cards or a simple memory card reader for the SD card direct?

I advocate off-loading media cards at every opportunity as opposed to when a card fills up, as many crews tend to do.

My point about the card being in the camera is that any time the card is in a drive that can write to it, an error by the operator, an interruption or power glitch while recording, a camera malfunction...anything is capable of not only corrupting a shot, but of possibly corrupting the whole card format. Of course, a card removed from the camera but not backed up is still in jeopardy from being misplaced, magnetically corrupted, or just crushed in a pants pocket...

Admittedly this is a bit of an extreme viewpoint, but I've had shoots where I have multiple actors, emergency vehicles, miles of road blocked off...scenes with medivac helicopters landing on location and taking off... Even if you discount the crew wages, grip truck, generator truck, car tow rig rental expense...not to mention the insurance bond for such things...re-shooting because of the failure of one SDHC or Compact Flash card (or even SxS or P2 card) really illustrates how disproportionate our expense in production is from our investment in storage of the work product...and therefore how strange our faith tends to be in a small piece of silicon we could lose in a mug of coffee storing even a couple hours' work...

As far as using SDHC cards in the Expresscard adapters, I've always just taken the SDHC cards out and used either a plug-in USB "dongle" SDHC reader, or more often the reader in a laptop to transfer the data.

One interesting advantage I've found is that if an SDHC card gets cranky because of a strange file write or something, I can hard-wipe it by re-formatting it in the computer...then the camera requires it to be reformatted in-camera, and on a few occasions, that has cleaned up little issues.

I have had a couple of SDHC cards just sort of "wear out" over the years, but I've found that in the 2 or 3 occasions where I've had a card that the camera reads but the computer doesn't, using the camera to transfer between the card slots to another card has typically done the trick...then I semi-retire the card to the GoPro case...where they seem to work fine at the lower bitrate.

Tom:

This is all great information and much appreciated.

Thanks : )

George

I never take the SDHC cards out of their adaptors. I use a USB expresscard reader to transfer them. SDHC cards are small and easily lost. The only time I take them out is when they need to be replaced.

Also be aware that transferring footage on location when under pressure is not always a good idea.

Find a procedure that works for you and stick to it.

Marcus said "Also be aware that transferring footage on location when under pressure is not always a good idea."

I agree, that's why I'd like to own a batch of SDHC cards and not have to do a transfer until after the shoot is over or back at the office. Their low cost over SxS now makes this a reality for me.

Staples is selling ScanDisk 16gb Ultra SDHC 30MB cards for $10 on sale until Saturday. Just picked up six last evening and plan to stock up on another six.

Will take the advice posted here and not fill them up. Perhaps 40 minutes or so and then swap them out.

....BTW: Do you folks use the SXS card reader to ingests these cards or a simple memory card reader for the SD card direct?

I have a single Hoodman Raw Expresscard and SDHC for emergency backup. It does not work in the SXS reader from Sony.

There are many many many threads on SXS vs SDHC adapters. Caveat Emptor.

Yes, there is quite a lot of information about using SDHC going back to 2007.

All kinds of theories about upgrading to the most recent firmware for the best results, which brand and type of card to use, which brand adapter, etc. If it works well for over-cranking and up to what frame rate. How much slower the transfer is when compared to using the SxS cards. How reliable the cards are.

I guess the point is, it can and does work but it's up to the shooter to test out the adapter and cards prior to any "paid" job and remedy any issues first

i have a PMW 200 and i have a 64 Gig SxS card in Drive A and a Sony MEAD-SD02 Adaptor with a Sandisc 64 Gb SDXH card, in Drive B.

The adaptor is used primarily as a backup or if the SxS gets filled up. I tend to not take the card out of the adaptor constantly, because i think that wear and tear might cause faults with it.

with the adaptor I lose the capacity to use UDF format and hence cant shoot the 50 Mbps MPEG HD422 codec.
So while the adaptor, at least for me is a cheaper option, there is a trade-off in recording quality.

...I guess the point is, it can and does work but it's up to the shooter to test out the adapter and cards prior to any "paid" job and remedy any issues first

I concluded that there's better reliability with SXS over the long term. SDHC may work for the test, but in my mind, the vast majority of problems/help/lost everything stories are SDHC. YMMV

I think the big gain with Sony gear is that you have the chance to use the most reliable electronic media known. With other cameras, you don't have the choice.

I concluded that there's better reliability with SXS over the long term. SDHC may work for the test, but in my mind, the vast majority of problems/help/lost everything stories are SDHC. YMMV

Funny how you rarely if ever hear these stories of losses any more. When I first got my EX1 in 2009 we were running at about 1 person a week on this forum with a problem of one sort or another.

Firmware has been updated and Sony even now produce their own SD adaptor. Cards and adaptors are now also faster.

Sony cover themselves with this "emergency use" only caveat that other manufacturers don't seem to bother with because they've got a warehouse full of SXS cards that they are knocking out with a huge margin. Fair play to them, that's business.

Problems never happen with SxS cards? Take a look through the forum yourself! I know someone who had a totally dead SXS card. It happens. Tapes used to go wrong as well.

One of my suppliers is listing a 64GB SXS card at over £845 + VAT. That's a steep ask

Other newer cameras have SD card slots built in because the manufacturers have realised they can't pull the wool over the customers eyes any longer.

...Problems never happen with SxS cards? ...I know someone who had a totally dead SXS card. It happens. ...


The record here on DVINFO is clear. Whenever the topic comes up, you defend SDHC. I know someone who had a totally dead SDHC card. Now what? Oh, wait. Problems with SxS are less frequent than SDHC. Oh. OK. SDHC is the cheap route. Caveat Emptor.

The record here on DVINFO is clear. Whenever the topic comes up, you defend SDHC. I know someone who had a totally dead SDHC card. Now what? Oh, wait. Problems with SxS are less frequent than SDHC. Oh. OK. SDHC is the cheap route. Caveat Emptor.

My viewpoint is one of wanting to help users enjoy the same flawless shooting experience I have experienced. When adaptors were newer and there were still problems I conducted many experiments with adaptors and cards until I found a combination that worked. I then chose to share that information in the face of much mis-infornation that was on here and other forums.

Today SDHC is officially supported in the firmware and cards are faster. If someone wants to pay 10 times the price for media then that is their call but they shouldn't be subjected to vague claims and scaremongering.

i have a PMW 200 and i have a 64 Gig SxS card in Drive A and a Sony MEAD-SD02 Adaptor with a Sandisc 64 Gb SDXH card, in Drive B.

The adaptor is used primarily as a backup or if the SxS gets filled up. I tend to not take the card out of the adaptor constantly, because i think that wear and tear might cause faults with it.

with the adaptor I lose the capacity to use UDF format and hence cant shoot the 50 Mbps MPEG HD422 codec.
So while the adaptor, at least for me is a cheaper option, there is a trade-off in recording quality.

XQD supports UDF if you want to retain shooting in XDCAM HD422.

My primary recording setup changed to a similar 2 card setup, but I use XQD as slot 1. Also, I only have FAT recording mode cause I'm on an EX1R.

...Today SDHC is officially supported in the firmware and cards are faster. If someone wants to pay 10 times the price for media then that is their call but they shouldn't be subjected to vague claims and scaremongering.

The OP is asking about an old camera right in the suite spot of the difficulties. The problems were real. You will even recall that specific combinations stopped working well because of changes at the factory.

The OP is asking about an old camera right in the suite spot of the difficulties. The problems were real. You will even recall that specific combinations stopped working well because of changes at the factory.

In my testing nearly all of the problems were down to bottlenecks in the adaptors and the cards. Simply put the early combinations had so little transfer headroom that as soon as a some extra write speed was required it wasn't there and the faults occurred.

Modern SD cards are many times faster than those in 2009. The latest Sandisk Extreme Pros are rated to 95 MB/s. The new firmware introduced in 2010 also improved things.

From memory, in '09 I found that some combinations of SD and adaptors were struggling to achieve 35fps in overcrank for about 10 mins before a media error. Transfers tests to a computer showed that speeds were indeed poor so it wasn't a camera issue.

The newer adaptors + ATP cards could fill a card at 45fps. This seemed to be all the camera could take before the firmware fix but it was fine to shoot standard 25fps. When tested on a computer these cards were much faster. Certainly faster than the camera needed even in over crank so at that point the bottleneck became the camera firmware itself.

Today I can fill a 32gb Sandisk Extreme card at 50fps with no issues at all. I'm on the 2010 firmware (if it ain't broke don't fix it).

... I conducted many experiments with adaptors and cards until I found a combination that worked. I then chose to share that information in the face of much mis-infornation that was on here and other forums.

Today SDHC is officially supported in the firmware and cards are faster. If someone wants to pay 10 times the price for media then that is their call but they shouldn't be subjected to vague claims and scaremongering.

Marcus:

I, for one, would be interested in the combination you are currently using... adapter and cards. My needs, as a renter not an owner, are a bit different. My local rental house charges big $$ for the cards. $50 for a 16gb and $75 for a 32. That adds much to a rental for a camera at $300 and makes my doing small half day shoots that much less lucrative.

If I can save on not renting cards that's $$ in my pocket. I also like the fact that I can take the cards home and save them until I know the client's drive is safe and sound. There is much to like, for me at least, about using SDHC and if you can help me cut through the noise on what works and what does not I would appreciate it.

My needs are mostly standard speed work 1080/60I for NSTC TV. Have no need for high speed work.

What should I be using for this kind of shooting?

Marcus:

I, for one, would be interested in the combination you are currently using... adapter and cards.

I'm currently using MxM adaptors along with Sandisk Extreme 32gb cards. You may prefer to go for 16GB cards instead if you prefer your data in smaller chunks (the theory being the same as with longer video tapes, the more you put on a storage device the more you stand to lose).

I strongly advise anyone to test any storage device before they use it in the field, be it SD, SxS, SSD or whatever. It's just good practice. If it's faulty out of the factory that's going to be a problem once you are in the field.

Do ensure your firmware is from 2010 or more recent. It irons out a few little niggles and clears that final bottleneck between the adaptor and the camera.

Always purchase your SD cards from a reputable supplier. In the UK Amazon sell for Sandisk directly so you can be sure you have genuine cards.

Thanks, Marcus.

Question for you. Does it make sense, when testing a batch of cards, to run the camera for a period of time at a higher than normal frame rate as a better test of that cards write ability? Even though I may only need normal speed it might show the card more likely to falter or fail with the high speed test.

My understanding is, the EX3 will indicate if there is a write error while shooting... is this correct?

That's what I do, Overcrank by shooting 60fps and recording 24fps. The best thing to test the encoder is analog snow. Use analog snow to throw random data at the encoder which will use the maximum bitrate possible and if the entire card survives the test, it should be good.

One thing to watch out for is shrinking headroom for transfer rate over time. As files are being re-written, there is a possibility of a buffer overrun with the camera which would automatically end the recording and not indicate a failure.

Thanks, Marcus.

Question for you. Does it make sense, when testing a batch of cards, to run the camera for a period of time at a higher than normal frame rate as a better test of that cards write ability? Even though I may only need normal speed it might show the card more likely to falter or fail with the high speed test.

My understanding is, the EX3 will indicate if there is a write error while shooting... is this correct?

Yes, if you run at a higher than usual frame rate then that does test the write ability. Make sure the camera is pointing at something that keeps the codec working though. Some sports footage, or as someone else said analogue static. Fill the card right up until the camera quits.

And offload and check the footage afterwards. Does it transfer ok? Does it play ok? No dropped frames etc. Transfer using XDCAM Browser with CRC turned on just to be sure.

One thing I can't tell you is how well the cards perform at 60fps as I've only ever gone as high as 50fps.

Also remember overcranking is totally unsupported so do not rely on it in the field.I wouldn't want anyone relying on it when Sony have stated that it isn't supported

That said, I have accidentally shot onto SD at 50fps in the field by forgetting to switch cards and everything was fine. But do not rely on it.

Final thing is to ensure you have enough media and rotate it. I have so many cards and adaptors on average they only get used every 4 weeks or so. Last year I also refreshed a load of my older ATP cards from 2009 with new Sandisk cards. The ATP's are still fine but I felt that at current prices I might as well and then the ATP's could be used in my Go Pro and other cameras. All cards are named and labelled with the date they went into service just to be sure.

XQD supports UDF if you want to retain shooting in XDCAM HD422.

yeah i had considered going the XQD path until i priced them at a supplier i use.

the Sony XQD 32 Gb is €300 and the adaptor is €71 while the Sony SxS 32 Gb is €336, not much advantage there really. Crazy pricing.
In B&H things are slightly better with the Sony XQD 32 Gb for $209 while the SxS 32 Gb is $338

yeah i had considered going the XQD path until i priced them at a supplier i use.

the Sony XQD 32 Gb is €300 and the adaptor is €71 while the Sony SxS 32 Gb is €336, not much advantage there really. Crazy pricing.
In B&H things are slightly better with the Sony XQD 32 Gb for $209 while the SxS 32 Gb is $338

I'm only going down that route to future-proof myself in case SxS starts becoming faux pas with all the 4K prosumer cameras using that format.

My viewpoint is one of wanting to help users enjoy the same flawless shooting experience I have experienced. .....

This just in ... an MXM adapter:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-ex-cinealta/520836-recover-video-file.html#post1826288

I own a PMW200 and SxS cards now but prior to that I rented and borrowed EX1/EX3/EX1R cameras regularly, almost always recording to SD cards in adaptors. One needs to be VERY careful (as noted here) to make sure that the card holds up for an extended recording - for example, SanDisk Ultra 32GB cards fail every single time in my application at 35mbps right around 12 or so minutes... which coincides with the 4 GB mark, the maximum allowable file size on a FAT 32 file system. My SPECULATION is the card is fast enough to write to but not fast enough to close one file, append the FAT and the open the next file and start writing.

Transcend, ADATA, Lexar all worked for me on the low end - SanDisk Extreme worked at the higher end.

I have since bought 2 x 64GB (and have a 16GB SxS-1) cards and don't sweat anything any more. In fact, for my own projects I have switched exclusively to 50mbps.

It wasn't worth it to me to take chances with SDHC cards any more.

As I said, I moved on to XQD after problems with heavily used Sandisk Extremes (32GB ones that have been used a lot in XA10s) and also the Sandisk Ultras too. The Ultras just don't have enough write speed headroom to record reliably, but they are good for transferring files from XQD.

Warning about Lexar Platinum IIs, they have a short lifespan. The controller chip inside those SD cards fail after a while of use. Yes, they are fast, but they give out I'd say within 2 months if you're using the cards every day.

This just in ... an MXM adapter:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-ex-cinealta/520836-recover-video-file.html#post1826288

So what firmware is he on? What card did he have in the adaptor? Was it genuine media from the likes of Sandisk or was it some cheap and cheerful Chinese card that a distributor slaps a sticker on and claims is made to a certain spec?

for example, SanDisk Ultra 32GB cards fail every single time in my application at 35mbps right around 12 or so minutes... which coincides with the 4 GB mark, the maximum allowable file size on a FAT 32 file system. My SPECULATION is the card is fast enough to write to but not fast enough to close one file, append the FAT and the open the next file and start writing.

I have seen certain older SD card adaptors having throughput way below what I would consider decent headroom and that would cause problems. Indeed I experienced something similar myself way back in 2009.

After testing, I then binned all the adaptors and also changed brands of SD card.

The over crank test I have described elsewhere should weed out any problems. A good modern card and adaptor combo will fill an SD card with over cranked footage at 50fps without complaining.

So what firmware is he on? What card did he have in the adaptor? Was it genuine media from the likes of Sandisk or was it some cheap and cheerful Chinese card that a distributor slaps a sticker on and claims is made to a certain spec?

You should followup on the referenced thread if you want that stuff. Those are issues SD card users have to deal with that those using SxS don't.

... Indeed I experienced something similar myself way back in 2009....

While I'm flattered that you quoted me in your post, something got bobbled. I did not say what you quoted. That was Shaun whom you quoted.

While I'm flattered that you quoted me in your post, something got bobbled. I did not say what you quoted. That was Shaun whom you quoted.

Apologies for the misquoting. The quoting system on this forum is somewhat unusual/broken.

I'm walking away from this now. This subject is as old as the hills, we've been through it all many many times and the causes of any problems are well established while ignoring the fact that no other media ever fails.