Howdy from Texas,

Here's a batch of .m2t files from our good friend and Tokyo agent Kaku Ito. These were all shot with the new Canon XL H1. Download them to your local hard drive, unzip them and play them on an HDTV display if you have one available. If you can't view .m2t files on your system, try the free VLC player from www.videolan.org -- Enjoy!

http://www.hdvinfo.net/media/kakugyo/XLH1bikeseq24.m2t.zip (136M)

http://www.hdvinfo.net/media/kakugyo/XLH1bikeseq30.m2t.zip (174M)

http://www.hdvinfo.net/media/kakugyo/XLH1bikeseq60i.m2t.zip (178M)

http://www.hdvinfo.net/media/kakugyo/XLH1cappuccinomaking.m2t.zip (347M)

http://www.hdvinfo.net/media/kakugyo/XLH1carspassingpanning.m2t.zip (43.6M)

http://www.hdvinfo.net/media/kakugyo/XLH1carspassingstatic.m2t.zip (37.9M)

http://www.hdvinfo.net/media/kakugyo/XLH1chromaaberration?.m2t.zip (87.9M)

http://www.hdvinfo.net/media/kakugyo/XLH1conversation.m2t.m2t.zip (39.1M)

http://www.hdvinfo.net/media/kakugyo/XLH1sunoverthecloud.m2t.zip (34.2M)

http://www.hdvinfo.net/media/kakugyo/XLH1whitedogpassingby.m2t.zip (20.2M)

The Clip marked as 24p is in fact 30p. The Panning clip is 24p. Interesting stuff.

So just to be clear, here is the clip that is definitely 24F:

http://www.hdvinfo.net/media/kakugyo/XLH1carspassingpanning.m2t.zip (43.6M)

I'll ask Kaku to shoot a couple more 24F clips for us at his convenience.

file:

XLH1chromaaberration?.m2t.zip
not found on the server,

shame as this was the one I wanted to see most of all :(

Fixed. The link is http://www.hdvinfo.net/media/kakugyo/XLH1chromaaberration?.m2t.zip

yes its working

many thanks

Chris,
FYI...the conversation clip is not working as well. (and thanks again to both of you for getting these online).

Barry

Well.

Back to back viewing of these clips vs. HD100 vs. Z1...looks like Canon isn't cheating on their 1440x1080 chips claim.

Well, now that I have seen all the clips (excl. those who didnt work) I feel good, not to say very good that I ordered the JVC. The Canon feels very videolike in motion (incl. the 24f ones). Although the image is very very good I think this camera is more suited for TV work and not so much for indie-filmmaking. The JVC is much better suited for shorts/features than the Canon.

This will be a great camera for television and live broadcasts but is the wrong toy for ppl like me. The price tag is clearly aimed at another target than indie-filmmakers!

Thx alot for posting the clips. There was another topic from a french site with clips as well, intresting. I feel good waiting for my JVC to arrive on monday!

I have to say I'm impressed, more so than any of the clips from the JVC I have seen.

Hmm...not sure how much we can judge from these clips. It looks exactly like what I'd expect...an XL2 picture with higher resolution. That's not a knock. It looks good, but with totally uncontrolled circumstances like street scenes, it's hard to really show off how good a camera picture is.

I personally think my XL2 picture is only mediocre in scenes like this and sometimes looks like a $1000 camera. However, if properly lit, it can create an excellent picture and rival much better cameras.

I look forward to Canon and Panny releasing their footage for these cameras in controlled environments.

Kevin

Since I'm having trouble with it too, I've asked Kaku to re-upload the chromatic ab. clip (that is when he wakes up -- it is the middle of the night in Japan right now). What else is not working?

All clips including the 2nd chromatic ab clip worked for me on a Mac using VLC.

Great to see some footage. It does look impressive.

By the way, the interior cappuccino clip looks great. A bit underexposed, but I love the way the contrast is coming through. Very nice.

KW

Ok, maybe David can answer this:

Why is Bikeseq24 showing up as 29.97, but has no visible pulldown applied? It doesn't even look like it's 24fps playing at 30...

In other words, it has all the hallmarks of a 30p clip.

(nevermind, I just saw his post way up there)

Looks very DV video-like to me. I was hoping to be blown away.

I've just gotten the ok to sell my Z1U and get a newer HDV if I want, but I'm having a hard time considering it after looking at all these clips of the Canon and JVC.

So far, the JVC seems a little more to my liking than the Canon. However, the Z1U seems like it's still quite comparable. This is difficult.

Yes, these will be difficult decisions that would be MUCH MORE difficult had the Canon been priced around $6K. I hope they sell a bunch of them to small market stations. Videographers, indy filmmakers, etc? Hope they can sell a couple dozen...:-) That price isn't exactly in any "sweet spot" I know of other than for the studio guys.

KW

I'd like to see if playing with the settings can improve the dynamic range.
I looks HiDef for sure, but it seems that it can't handle the highlights very much.

Looks very DV video-like to me. I was hoping to be blown away.

I personally saw a boatload of resolution, and latitude and color response at the very least par for a camera at this price range.

That's already enough to get some amazing images if it's not shot "video-like".

Remember there's 23 different custom presets in this thing, some with parameters adjustable from -9 to +9. Most likely Kaku hasn't even touched the custom presets yet.

Unable to download the chromatic-aberration or conversation clips...

... there's 23 different custom presets in this thing, some with parameters adjustable from -9 to +9that makes 1,619,388,551,833,115,628,318,743,232 different image settings to be exact (http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=377&c=28)

It looks like video.
Honestly, I'm not impressed. Not because it looks bad. It looks good! Resolution is good. It looks like great video, and that was the problem. It looks like ultra sharp video. Not filmic at all in my opinion. But then again, it's really interlaced and not progressive. As I expected, it looked a lot like a Z1.
I only watched the 30f and 24f, because all that was said about how great it looked and that it looked the same as progressive. Well, it didn't. For me, it doesn't look like film at all. Nothing even close to Nate's L.A. footage when it comes to looking like film. I would like to point, that I'm in no way criticizing the shooter. The video looked great.

By the way, why is the chormatic aberration clip dead?
So the lens also produces CA?

By the way, why is the chormatic aberration clip dead?
So the lens also produces CA?

Yep, it is dead. I would love to see it too.

Good morning.

I just woke up.

I did not use the parameters in the presets much since I'm not that inclined with film style shooting at all. Only did few with adjusting Knee and Black Stretch. I can try with some of the presents already in there, but I don't know how good they are.

I'm going to Yoyogi park today for more clips. Also the real aberration testing clip is coming today. The aberration clip which is uploaded now is footage I shot of sun flashing through the woods and I saw the similar unwanted colors that someone mentioned.

I'm not sure if I should be doing film style at all, a rock musician can't really play classic music, and I have to do my own testing as a camera for moutainbike shooting.

But I promised Sanjin about green back shooting using HDSDI and Kona 2 or Decklink HD, that is what something not easily provided, so I'm going to do my best to cover this footage. I will probably shoot my hand palying a guitar or something.

Ok, maybe David can answer this:

Why is Bikeseq24 showing up as 29.97, but has no visible pulldown applied? It doesn't even look like it's 24fps playing at 30...

In other words, it has all the hallmarks of a 30p clip.

(nevermind, I just saw his post way up there)

I'm seeing the exact same thiing looking at the clip in WMP, VLAC, and Vegas 6.0c. If that's really 24F, something is amiss.

Good morning Kaku, I really look forward to see new clips from the Canon. I would really like to see some more 24f if you have time!

Kaku:

Great to see some footage.

What shutter speeds are you shooting at, especially in 24f mode?

Can you shot a locked off tripod shot of a complex scene, once in 24F, one in 30F and once in 60i?

thanks again for shooting and posting!

It looks like video.
Honestly, I'm not impressed. Not because it looks bad. It looks good! Resolution is good. It looks like great video, and that was the problem. It looks like ultra sharp video. Not filmic at all in my opinion. But then again, it's really interlaced and not progressive. As I expected, it looked a lot like a Z1.
I only watched the 30f and 24f, because all that was said about how great it looked and that it looked the same as progressive. Well, it didn't. For me, it doesn't look like film at all. Nothing even close to Nate's L.A. footage when it comes to looking like film. I would like to point, that I'm in no way criticizing the shooter. The video looked great.

My exact feelings...as a Canon fan and long time user I expected more from a $9k camera, specially from its 24F. Even if I could afford the Canon or if it would cost as much as the JVC I would still pick the latter as the 720p footage suits my taste more.

Im sure though that you could squeeze out some really stunning footage from the Canon...but Im afraid interlaced chips are crippled when compared to real progressive ones in terms of true film motion...no CF nor 24F seem to be able to change that fact!

You want video look, choose Sony or Canon. You want 24p, its either JVC or the HVX...there is no way around this. The HVX users will be lucky enough to have the best of both worlds and more if they are ok with a fixed lens and P2 storage!

...but Im afraid interlaced chips are crippled when compared to real progressive ones in terms of true film motion...no CF nor 24F seem to be able to change that fact!


How are you arriving at that conclusion when talking about the Canon?

Have you even seen the footage?

How are you arriving at that conclusion when talking about the Canon?

Have you even seen the footage?

What's curious to me is that the 24F, 30F and 60i clips of the guy on the bike look so similar - I'm not sure if it's shutter speed, highlight exposure, gamma, camera work and/or something about the "F" mode that still is a little "videoish" - it's hard to say.

You both may be right. 24F and 30F are not anything like CineFrame from Sony - looks like progressive motion. However, footage does lack much filmic feel despite Vegas reporting it as 23.976 progressive footage (except I also get the 24F clip labeled as 29,97 progressive.

Like the early HD100 footage, we can't jump to conclusions yet. We need some carefully shot A/B comparisoins.

Hey Kaku,

You are the man, I actually wen't to Tokyo Japan for 10 days and documented my trip with a Canon XLS.... I had tremendous time and managed to make a mini crappy documentry DVD for my friends to check out. I'm trying to finance another trip and take a friend with me this time...Know let me get to the point... It was hard shooting in Shibuya Crossing with all the flashing lights and and cars. I ended up with some harsh CA and lens Autofocus problems.

Im very intrested to see how it handles at night with the extreme amount of neon lights and activities and how it compares with my amatuer footage of TOKYO AT NIGHT.....


Thanks Eli

PS. ROPPONGI ROCKS

What's curious to me is that the 24F, 30F and 60i clips of the guy on the bike look so similar


The clips labeled bikeseq24 & 30 are actually both 30p.

The cappucino making clip and the cars passing with panning clips are 24. There may be others, but I know offhand those are 24, I checked them.

How are you arriving at that conclusion when talking about the Canon?

Have you even seen the footage?

Yes Nate, I was probably among the first to download the Canon footage, both Kakus and footage from a french forum. Also what I said is my personal opinion and my personal conclusion as Im only judging what I see with no regards to brand, specs nor pixel count. There are even ppl that prefer Sony CF mode over 720p!

I think the XL H1 is a great 1080i video camera but I prefer the 24P JVC look over the Canon (24P vs 24F)...and this comes from a long time Canon fan and a person who would previously not even touch a JVC. Until somebody convinces me with better 24F footage my opinion stands!

The clips labeled bikeseq24 & 30 are actually both 30p.

The cappucino making clip and the cars passing with panning clips are 24. There may be others, but I know offhand those are 24, I checked them.

I know as I checked as well but I'm not concluding that they were mislabled or mishot until Kaku tells us more. It seems clear that he was trying to shoot the same subject in three different modes. Why the 24F is showing up as 30F we don't know yet.

We have yet to know exactly how the 24F is set in the camera, processed etc and what shutter speeds etc. all this was shot with.

These clips, though fun to look at, are not really enough to make solid judgements with.

Yes Nate, I was probably among the first to download the Canon footage, both Kakus and footage from a french forum.

I looked at the French footage and since it was lower rez MPEG and short clips, it was really hard to tell too much.

Yeah, thats right, and non of them where 24F.

I guess Stephen is right, we will have to wait until more footage arrives!

Alright. View, in VLC back to back, if you will:

http://homepage.mac.com/nweaver/.Movies/XLH1-24p-1.m2t
http://homepage.mac.com/nweaver/.Movies/HollywoodBlvd1.m2t

The XLH clip is in 24.

It looks exactly like what I'd expect...an XL2 picture with higher resolution.

In my eyes Kaku's footages, as well as those French ones from the other thread, do seem have to more tones in the black end than XL2 images. For me, the neutral and rich tone of colors is amazing taking into account the bandwidth of HDV. Thinking backwards, each step from Betacam to XL1 to XL2 and now to XL-H1 have added more tones, and the once so marvellous Betacam appears now to be rather steep.

file:

XLH1chromaaberration?.m2t.zip
not found on the server,

shame as this was the one I wanted to see most of all :(


I actually did see some on the car passing / panning clip (a truck actually) some green rimming on the rock at the lower right of the frame and a little purple on the mirror of the moped parked right of frame.
It's very minor, however.
The abberation I've seen from JVC grabs seems more pronounced?
All and all, I think it looks pretty nice, actually. Video-y or not.

Alright. View, in VLC back to back, if you will:

http://homepage.mac.com/nweaver/.Movies/XLH1-24p-1.m2t
http://homepage.mac.com/nweaver/.Movies/HollywoodBlvd1.m2t

The XLH clip is in 24.


Interesting - I think Barry Green is absolutely right about his 24F theory. Objects in motion seem unaturally soft compared to still background. The look is very much like motion adaptive deinterlacing you get with a software product like DV Filmmaker. I'm liking more the theory that 24F is two 48i half rez 540 line frames that the DIGIC processor puts together. Maybe that's the reason 24F cannot be wrapped in yet another stream and Canon had to create a new HDV format - too much processing?

That also means no real 1/24th shutter speed like DVX, Varicam, CineAlta as well. I don't use it that much on my DVX, but very handy in low light scenes where there is not much subject or camera movement.

I could be way wrong, but that's what I'm seeing.

Haven't seen those two clips yet (conversation & chromatic-aberration) but that just reminded me -- Tim Smith, the Canon rep at ResFest, did say that the XL H1's lens "resolves 1200 lines".

Maybe that's the reason 24F cannot be wrapped in yet another stream and Canon had to create a new HDV format

The reason the Canon 24F tapes don't play back in Sony equipment, is because it looks like Canon is using repeat flags like the JVC. You can't use old-style pulldown (putting redundant whole frames or fields) in the stream with HDV because you'd have to recompress to extract your original 24fps.

The JVC uses repeat flags, a way of just putting 24 real frames inside a 60 stream without wasting stream bandwidth on redundant frames. Repeat flags are well known MPEG2 spec according to David Newman, but I've run into plenty of software that doesn't recognize it.

It appears to me that Canon did the same trick, using flags. It has nothing to do with how the Canon got those 24 frames from the CCDs....that's another issue entirely.

a little purple on the mirror of the moped parked right of frame.

My monitor is calibrated, and I can second Eric's observations. Still, looking more closely at the bike sequences, the guy's shirt is purple every now and then, as well as the street. Look also the last frame of bikeseq30. In the upper right corner the wall of the building which is in light has a magenta tone. So, I wonder, whether this is a white balance issue? However, would like to emphasize, this is just a question from my side: Obviously the heavy compression must have some side effects. No free lunches available.

Wow this is going to be one heck of a braodcast camera. It should make for a very nice HD camera for those wedding shooters who do not mind spending $9,000.00 on a camera. I haven't checked out things very well yet but so far I do like what I see. I do agree however that I have a hard time deciding if it is worth the cost. This is even more true now with Barry Green's find of the tapes not working in any current HDV deck. I cannot remember the last time I actually used a camera for editing.

Barry do you know or think tapes in 60i would work fine in a current other 1080i deck/camera? I can see why the 24f and 30f may not work because of the flags but what about straight everyday 60i?

Kaku maybe if you get a chance you can see if tapes recorded in 60i playback from your HC1?

In the upper right corner the wall of the building which is in light has a magenta tone. So, I wonder, whether this is a white balance issue?

That's classic chromatic aberration. One edge will have magenta ghost, the other will be green.

Obviously the heavy compression must have some side effects. No free lunches available.

Sure. Do some super shaky handheld work and take a close look at how the picture will soften up during fast movement. That's the easiest viewable artifact of HDV under stress.

Barry do you know or think tapes in 60i would work fine in a current other 1080i deck/camera? I can see why the 24f and 30f may not work because of the flags but what about straight everyday 60i?
Well, I'm tempted to say that I can't imagine how the XL H1's 60i tapes wouldn't play in the Sony gear... but then again, Canon appears to have deviated from the spec by including four channels of audio (each channel using 96kbps, for a total added-together rate of 384kbps). So will that play back in the Sony? I don't know. I would be very surprised if 60i tapes from the Canon don't play in the Sony.

Kaku maybe if you get a chance you can see if tapes recorded in 60i playback from your HC1?
Excellent idea, and yes, Kaku if you could test that we would be most appreciative! Please test 30F also, if you would.

One thing I will say whatever CANON is doing to get to 24p it does it very well. Without looking at the lines of resolution or detail the images are very clear with no sign of deinterlacing or aliased edges. I tried checking many different angles of lines with different levels of motion and so far I haven't been able to find any aliased edges due to an interpolated field of data.

While some of the early footage from the H1 may look like video the very first footage from the HD100 in my opinion at least looked much much worse. It wasn't until the HD100 was really pushed that we saw it's potential.

My only concern at this point is to see what is happening to the chroma during CANON's conversion to 24f/30f. If it is like the frame movie mode or even just 540 lines duplicated we kind of end up with 4:2:0 all over again. Of course this doesn't matter on HDV tape but it does matter for the HD-SDI output where we would have been able to get 4:2:2.

In this case it might actually be better to use the component uncompressed output from the JVC HD-100. Even though it is 720p at least you know no tricks were done to get it to 720p and you will get a true 4:2:2

Interesting - I think Barry Green is absolutely right about his 24F theory. Objects in motion seem unaturally soft compared to still background.I'll pretty much always defer to Barry Green, but isn't this a hallmark of HDV, not the frame rate? Canon has something similar to JVC's "motion smoothing" in the XL H1. They're not calling it motion smoothing, but something like it is in there, no matter what the frame rate. It's just more apparent at slower frame rates.

By the way folks with regard to any more clips from Kaku today, I will have those posted and linked for you as soon as I return this afternoon. Going out on a shoot right now and will be back in about eight or ten hours or so.