You are buying a beautiful high build quality side mount head with a decent length QR plate. Why add the weight of the Manfrotto plate? Just get more Sachtler QR plates.

You are buying a beautiful high build quality side mount head with a decent length QR plate. Why add the weight of the Manfrotto plate? Just get more Sachtler QR plates.

I wouldn't be adding the Manfrotto bracket.

My problem (which I feel must surely be quite common) is that I want to be able to take the camera off the tripod and mount it on a stabilizer (and other mounts I might possibly invent in the future), so I need a QR bracket that takes the same plate as the head.

According to Chris, the Manfrotto plate and bracket are compatible with the Sachtler FSB4 and FSB6.

I sent an email to Miller asking if there was a solution to this for their tripods, either from them or another manufacturer, but have not had a reply yet. I guess they are closed until some time in the new year.

Richard, how much force is required to operate the leg section locks? Do you think a six or seven year old child would have any problems?

I found an 8-year old kid who had no trouble tightening the leg locks on my Gitzo sticks.

Gitzo Demo on Vimeo


Mark Watson

I found an 8-year old kid who had no trouble tightening the leg locks on my Gitzo sticks.

LOL! Excellent! Thanks, Mark. :)

I sent an email to Miller asking if there was a solution to this for their tripods, either from them or another manufacturer, but have not had a reply yet. I guess they are closed until some time in the new year.

I received a reply from Miller. They do have a compatible QR bracket; the 313:
Special mounts: QR Adaptor Plate (313) - Miller Camera Support (http://www.millertripods.com/product_details.html?id=236&back_url=%2Fsearch.html%3Ffor%3D313)

So that's another point in Miller's favour.

I had a good long talk to someone at an Australian store, and when I described the old Miller heads I used to use 30 years ago he said the modern ones are very different. I came away not knowing what to think.

But I assume the basic design of all this range of heads is very similar.

So the questions are:

Is the Gitzo CF legs + FSB4 better than the Miller Solo CF and DS10 head? Especially considering it will cost me nearly $600 more.

Will a head that lists a weight range of 2.5kg to 5kg be completely unusable with only a 1.5kg camera? If so, then I may as well wait until I get the camera I intend using. The reason I wanted to get the tripod sooner is because I'm sick of fighting with my current system, but if I will still have to fight with the new one I may as well wait.

The Gitzo / Sachtler FSB combination is superb. If you bought it, you would be happy. Very happy. Day after day.

Is it worth the extra cost, for you? I cannot say.

The Gitzo / Sachtler FSB combination is superb. If you bought it, you would be happy. Very happy. Day after day.

I think I would be happy with it, but I'm wondering if I wouldn't also be happy with the Miller. They have a good name too. And I was wrong about the price difference. The Gitzo/Sachtler would be about $900 more. $2362 v $1460.

Spec wise, nothing jumps out at me as being that much better, if at all.

The value (to me) of the Gitzo / Sachtler combo is not in the specs - it is in the handling, and the rock solid foundation, and in the perfect pans with no wind-up or backlash, and the quality of the build. These items are not found in specs.

However, the Miller combo might be just fine, and the price difference is significant. It is unfortunate that you can't see and try both in person.

Alas, I am of no further help. I wish you well in your decision.

It is unfortunate that you can't see and try both in person.

Indeed.

These 2 systems are much closer in price at B&H. What makes the Miller so attractive is that there is a store in Australia that has it for a very good price with free shipping until the end of January.

Thanks for all your input.

Seems this thread has done significantly more than its allotted laps, tho' guess that was inevitable given its title, there being no such critter and all.

Back to basics.

Existing scenario:

Exceedingly average sticks + ditto head + 600 mm lens = exceedingly average video + totally shagged

Currently Proposed Scenario:

1:1:1:? sticks + untried head + 600 mm lens = who the heck knows (but you wouldn't catch me using it for a parachute).

Reality Check Scenario:

Vinten Vb (x) tester 2:2:1 sticks & head combo + Manfrotto 520ball + Manfrotto 128LP exceedingly average head + 600 mm lens = well, at least there's some decent sticks under it, take it from there.

Logic:

1. Both of the first two components of the CPS are potential "buy it and weep" units, not a good look.

2. The sticks under the Vb series are darn good, and they're FREE testers!

3. You need a 520BALL 75Mm Bowl With Knob 520BALL - Other | Manfrotto (http://www.manfrotto.com/520ball-75mm-bowl-with-knob) to use your current head with any 75 mm bowl sticks anyway.

4. If the RCS doesn't work (as if!), send the Vinten back with thanks, but........and we take this thread for a couple of additional laps and see if we can kill it.


CS

Seems this thread has done significantly more than its allotted laps, tho' guess that was inevitable given its title, there being no such critter and all.

Indeed. No matter what I choose, I will have to make significant compromises.


2. The sticks under the Vb series are darn good, and they're FREE testers!

Do you have a specific model in mind? Everything I can find is quite heavy (compared to the Gitzo CF or Miller Solo CF).

From other research I've done since starting this thread, it seems that for a single person crew, shooting wildlife, single leg tripods are the most common type used. The flexibility of operation far outweighs the slight increase in windup. And I can think of some of the situations that I get my current tripod in that a normal MLS video tripod would not be able to cope with.

I'll try to get the Australian store to offer to take the Miller system back if I find it unsuitable. If so, then my only risk is the freight cost.

The Miller system I'm looking at gets reasonable reviews:
Miller SOLO DV10 Carbon Fiber Tripod System 1511 B&H Photo Video (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/293493-REG/Miller_1511_SOLO_DV10_Carbon_Fiber.html#costumerReview)

Here is a thought. One of the reviewers of the Miller system (on B&H site) that downgraded his opinion over time is in Denver. If he was willing (and it might be useful to him as well), I would offer to loan him one of my Gitzo / Sachter systems for a week or two (or three) and see what he says.

I had been contemplating sending Chris S. one of my systems for a DVInfo review but that will probably not happen soon enough, and I have no idea if Chris S. would even be interested.

Let me know if this is of interest.

(Disclaimer - I have nothing to disclaim. I am just a user / customer of the products, and would like to help the DV Info collective knowledge base)

Wow, yet another lap.........

Michael:

I keep seeing different system weights from you, so no model can be specifically pinpointed for a TESTER Vinten system.

Whatever you currently have will have to be it, and let Andrew at Vinten specify the system. The sticks under the Vb(x) heads are all exactly the same, so it matters not.

The reason for my last post, in case you haven't worked it out, is to establish a baseline for usability at the least possible cost to you and avoiding, if at all possible, the "buy it and weep" scenario so many people find themselves in.

With the test Vinten and the Manfrotto 520ball, you can test not only the full Vinten, but the Vinten sticks with your existing head, then work out what, if anything gives you the best bang for your buck.

This is based on my experience with both cheap/ expensive heads and cheap/ expensive sticks.

1.Cheap sticks under cheap heads = crap

2.Cheap sticks under good heads = not much better, but better

3.Good sticks under cheap heads = better than 2.

4.Good sticks under good heads = bliss

Good luck getting the vendor to promise to take back (and refund) a purchased system is it doesn't suit, that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid here, and that's exactly where you go with either the Solo's or the Gitzos.

As for reviews, they're only meaningful if they're relevant to your shooting circumstances, how the heck will you know unless you have a benchmark?

However, if you want to know why, exactly, I'm pretty dubious of 1:1:1:? sticks, read post #199 (yep, 199!) of this, er, my thread http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/tripod-sticks-heads/486338-vinten-sachtler-libec-miller-manfrotto-shootout-14.html (especially the pdf's therein) and check out the rigidity tests (cool graphs, huh?) of the tripods in question, the worst, from memory, were the Sachtler 2:1:1's.

Based on that, I have little faith in straight 1's top to bottom.

Richard:

great thought, though to make any comparison meaningful I'd really need both a Gitzo and a Solo system to get a feel for a winner.

The forensic tests I did for my shootout reviews won't even get a look in till I've got this damn new bionic knee functioning more like a knee and less like a toaster/ skateboard/ PITA.


CS

Chris:

By 1:1:1 do you mean singe tube for each leg section?

Yep.


CS

Chris:

This is why you need to try the Gitzo Series 3 CF legs yourself, whether the Miller system is available or not.

I keep seeing different system weights from you,

I started wanting as light as possible, specifying that 4kg would be ideal, and expressing doubt that I would be able to get anything "good" at that weight.

As I have gained more data, thanks to you and other posters here, I have accepted that I may have to go slightly higher and have only gone as high as 4.85kg.

The reason for my last post, in case you haven't worked it out, is to establish a baseline for usability at the least possible cost to you and avoiding, if at all possible, the "buy it and weep" scenario so many people find themselves in.

I do understand that, but am not comfortable asking for a loan, knowing it will not be suitable going in. We all know that a solid, heavy system will be stable, but I can't go there because I won't be able to carry it in the rainforest.

My only baseline for a good system is the very heavy Miller tripods and heads of 30+ years ago. These were very good. I often had 3 cameras (two 16mm and one video) mounted to the same head, tracking horse races from the other side of the track. One of the 16mm cameras and the video camera had an equivalent angle of view of about 1200mm. These were rock steady and smooth.

I have not laid hands on anything even half decent since. I hoped (and still do) that modern materials and manufacturing have improved the weight/performance ratio.

When I started this thread, I had completely discounted the possibility of using photo-style 1:1:1 sticks, but a couple of people have commented that some of them are quite good, all things considered. At the same time, my other research indicated that other people found this style a good compromise for difficult environments where spreader systems become restrictive. I've read many of your posts on this forum and noticed that you have been unable to test any of these stick. So this is the only area where my requirements have changed since the start of this thread.

I hope to be able to come in under $2K, but this is not a hard limit. But it has to be worth it to me, since this is just a hobby for me I can't just make the cost back.


However, if you want to know why, exactly, I'm pretty dubious of 1:1:1:? sticks, read post #199 (yep, 199!) of this, er, my thread http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/tripod-sticks-heads/486338-vinten-sachtler-libec-miller-manfrotto-shootout-14.html (especially the pdf's therein) and check out the rigidity tests (cool graphs, huh?) of the tripods in question, the worst, from memory, were the Sachtler 2:1:1's.

Based on that, I have little faith in straight 1's top to bottom.

I understand that, but the sticks being discussed here have a much larger tube diameter, which must surely count for something.

The bottom line is that between what I've learned here, and my discussion with the store in Brisbane (who, incidentally, didn't rave-up the Miller or Sachtler at this weight level, so I felt he was being honest), I've come to the conclusion that the Gitzo/Sachtler or Miller systems will be the best compromise for me.

I'm not expecting perfection (and never was), but I am hoping for significant gains on what I've been using.

I don't have a direct comparison between these 2 systems, but everything I've read leads me to believe that there isn't a massive difference between them, not enough to justify a $900 difference in price.

I will hold off until the end of the month before purchasing, partly because my wife has just had knee surgery and if that hasn't fixed her knee, then my rainforest trekking days will be numbered.

Here is a thought. One of the reviewers of the Miller system (on B&H site) that downgraded his opinion over time is in Denver. If he was willing (and it might be useful to him as well), I would offer to loan him one of my Gitzo / Sachter systems for a week or two (or three) and see what he says.

Although it would be of some help, I wouldn't feel comfortable with either you or the Miller owner going to that much trouble just for me. Also, unless a direct comparison was made with scientific tests, similar to what Chris did on his reviews, there is too much risk that the results might be skewed.

Lots of activity.... Zero progress....

Lots of activity.... Zero progress....

Really?

After posting yesterday I discovered that the total weight quoted for the Miller systems includes the bag and strap, so it does come out exactly at my ideal 4kg. This also brings a system based on the Compass 12 head within the realm of possibility at 4.8kg, and that does look like a much better head. Both Alister Chapman and Philip Bloom seem to like them in this class.

Miller Solo DV 2-Stage Carbon Fiber Tripod with Compass 12 1870

Although the weight is stated as 6.7kg, the legs and head come to 4.8kg. I'm waiting for Miller to get back to me at the moment to make sure that is correct.

Sorry.

It is truly a shame you can't compare systems in person.

Good luck with your purchase.

Michael,
Sorry I haven't been able to offer any help in the last little while. I have been in Melbourne visiting my daughter & grandson with no internet.
If you can possibly stretch your weight limits to accommodate the Miller compass 12 head, that would be the way I would go. As I have said in a previous post, the problem with the DV10 head is that the head has a very limited adjustment in both counterbalance, & drag. The Compass 12 fixes that, & from what I have read, fixes it well. I have both the Miller CF legs & the Gitzo, & I think you would be happy with either.
Of course, I could say the same about the Sachtler head.
I think you are of the right mind when you talk about having to make a compromise with this setup. Without a personal Sherpa to carry your gear, the perfect solution would be back breaking.
Regards,
Bryce

Bryce:

Are your Gitzo legs System 2 (GT2 something) or System 3 (GT3 something)?

They're system 3 legs with a 100mm bowl. The leg sections are approximately 1 1/2" in diameter at the top. (That's just a guess though, as I don't have them near me at the moment)

Bryce,
I think you have Series 5 Carbon 100mm bowl model! I have Series 3 and just took a leg measurement at the top section. Only 30mm (1.25 inches). I remember you posting about them about a year and a half ago. I'm betting they're either model GT5532LS or GT5532S. If you go to the Gitzo site, you will find these under the "Photography" section and not in the "Video" section. I really like the FSB-6/Gitzo leg combination. Yes, it's a compromise, isn't everything? Lighter weight gear makes a difference if you have to hand carry it all day. If wind up is evident, I can minimize that by holding the pan rod a few seconds at the end of a panning shot.

GT5532 | B&H Photo Video (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=GT5532&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=)

(While I have the calipers handy, my Series 2, model GT2542LS legs are 26mm at the top.)

Mark

A compromise perhaps. However, I have not experienced wind-up or resulting back lash with Gitzo Series 3 legs and Sachtler FSB fluid heads. Cameras are Canon XA20, XF100, 5D Mark III, and 7D.

I can believe that. I didn't notice any wind up until I had my XL-H1A with Canon EF Adapter XL, 1.4x extender and a 100-400mm zoom lens mounted up on it. The 35mm equivalent of that combination is something over 3,000mm. Just barely touching the camera can cause lots of jiggling of the image. I also use the Gitzo/Sachtler with the XF305, 7D and HV30 and only notice any wind up if I have the drag set real high.

Mark

Mark, thank you so much for picking up that mistake, they are indeed series 5 legs!
I just looked up the order from B&H. These are the ones: Gitzo Series 5 6X Systematic 3-Section Tripod (Standard) GT5532S
Sorry to you Michael, & anyone else that I may have mislead. I still stand by the legs though, they are rock solid.
As for the Miller CF legs, I still stand by those also. Are they a compromise? Of course they are. With long lens work, anything short of a block of concrete is going to be. The most important thing in my opinion is to go for the best gear you can afford, then learn to use it to the best of your ability. I think that regardless of what tripod system you use, learning to use it well will make a big difference to your shots.
Regards,
Bryce

True story:

In Denver today, I was walking down the 16th Street Mall (a prominent pedestrian mall) at lunch time, and I encountered a videographer shooting some of the interesting buildings in downtown Denver. When I got closer, I saw that he was using a Sachtler FSB6 on Gitzo carbon fiber legs (and obviously a 75mm bowl). His camera appeared to be a Canon C100 with a white telephoto lens ( probably a 70-200). I commented to him that I found his choice of fluid head and legs interesting. He said "I would not use anything else". I asked him if he encountered windup or resulting whiplash and he replied "No, not all".

That's good news.

I've settled on the Miller Compass 12 head and Solo 75 legs
Miller Solo DV 2-Stage Carbon Fiber Tripod with Compass 12 1870


And this QR adapter so I can use the same QR plate on my stabilizer.
Miller Solopod QR Adaptor Plate 1213 B&H Photo Video


My wife sees the surgeon again tomorrow to find out how it went. If the prognosis is good, I'll order them. If not, I'll wait until we know more. No point is pending $2K and having the tripod sit in it's box for months.

This is based on my experience with both cheap/ expensive heads and cheap/ expensive sticks.

1.Cheap sticks under cheap heads = crap

2.Cheap sticks under good heads = not much better, but better

3.Good sticks under cheap heads = better than 2.

4.Good sticks under good heads = bliss


CS

I don't often disagree with the good Mister Soucy but in MY own personal opinion, I'd switch the order of 2 & 3.

I'll take a superior head and lesser (but not total crap!) legs versus a mediocre head and great legs. But I do a fair bit of panning and tilting.

I once consulted and spec'ed a tripod system for a client who frankly didn't have quite enough money and the only way I could get them anything usable at their budget (this is prior to the Blue line coming out...) was a Sachtler head (can't remember if it was an FSB6 or 8) and Manfrotto legs.

The DOWNSIDE was the levelling ball handle on the head didn't allow the legs to fully close for transport.

But they had a VERY strict height and pricing requirement.

Also, keep in mind when talking to other folks using equipment that they may not have had experience with better tripods.

I hang my head when I think of how I joined DVInfo over ten years ago by chiming in on the positive aspects of the Manfrotto 501 (pre HDV501) head and 525MV legs combo, which back then set me back more than $1400 CDN. Keep in mind I had used Sachtler Video 18 and 25 tripods, a bunch of Vinton and Miller but back then tripods were SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive...

I've settled on the Miller Compass 12 head and Solo 75 legs
Miller Solo DV 2-Stage Carbon Fiber Tripod with Compass 12 1870 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/785054-REG/Miller_1870_Solo_DV_2_Stage_Carbon.html)


And this QR adapter so I can use the same QR plate on my stabilizer.
Miller Solopod QR Adaptor Plate 1213 B&H Photo Video (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/742493-REG/Miller_1213_Solopod_QR_Adaptor_Plate.html)

Ordered. They are being shipped straight from Miller in Sydney so I should see them late next week.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to my education in this matter. I'll report back as soon as I've had a chance to use it.

Good choice. I've used the Aluminium version of these sticks extensively with the DS10 and they're rock solid. I'd buy a carbon set myself but I'm chasing something more compact for now.

Funnily enough the reason for more compact sticks is because I have the Vinten Vision Blue kit Chris keeps talking up, and purchased on his recommendation. They are brilliant, rock solid legs and the head is a delight, perfect for my NX5 and far better than the Miller setup, however I now have a Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera and they are too heavy to travel with regularly.

I think your Miller kit will be a good compromise for you, although personally I think you probably could have saved some money on the head.

I think your Miller kit will be a good compromise for you, although personally I think you probably could have saved some money on the head.

It may be that I'd be perfectly happy with the DS10 head, but the Compass 12 (or FSB4) will, I'm sure, be even better.

Any update, Michael?


CS

Any update, Michael?

No. Miller could not supply the head straight away and I was given the opportunity to cancel my order. In the mean time, my wife's knee is worse after the surgery, but she can't have knee replacement for about 12 months, so we won't be going on any trips for at least 14 months. I decided to take up the offer and cancelled the order. I'll reorder again just after her knee replacement surgery. The money can be put to better use in the mean time, starting with a $1000 knee brace so she can at least walk a bit.

Sorry to resurrect such an old thread, but I thought I'd supply an update.

I have been through a personal hell for the last 3 years and have only just come out the other side. Time to get back to doing things I enjoy.

I was ready to purchase the Miller system (which has actually dropped in price slightly) but decided to see if anything new had come on the market in the meantime.

I discovered the Sachtler Flowtech 75 / Ace XL system. The legs look like they were made to my specifications and the head looks pretty good too.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1354195-REG/sachtler_1017_system_ace_xl_with.html/BI/2855/KBID/3801 (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1354195-REG/sachtler_1017_system_ace_xl_with.html/BI/2855/KBID/3801/BI/2855/KBID/3801)

So I've just ordered a system from an Australian supplier who has it in stock.

Also, new cameras have come along and I think I'll be getting a Panasonic AG-UX180.

Thanks to everyone who helped me through my tripod journey.

I'll make one more post once I've got the camera (probably a few weeks) and tried it all.

To wrap this up, after using the tripod for shooting some little Brown Honeyeasters every day for a couple of weeks I've finally got a feel for the system. The longest distance I've carried it so far with camera attached is about 5km. I found that an effort, but doable. Surprisingly, breaking the magnetic latches on the legs apart when retracted does cause me some pain, but not having the legs fly about is certainly a good thing. Extending the legs makes it much easier for me to open them.

Operationally, raising and lowering the legs is a wonderful experience. The head I'm less impressed with, but it does do a good job. I'm used to working with a much firmer head so even on the highest drag setting I find it a bit weak. However, I am learning to get smooth pans and tilts from it at the full zoom of my UX180 (equiv. 500mm).

The whole system feels less rugged that my old completely metal Manfrotto, so I'm not sure how long it will last.

Here's my review of the camera and some footage of the Honeyeaters shot with the camera and tripod:

Panasonic AG-UX180 Review - mike-warren.net (http://www.mike-warren.net/panasonic-ag-ux180-review/)

https://youtu.be/etHOHXoGSqk

I had a bad ending to 2017 wedding season where both tripods started to go. Leg locks began slipping. The good tripod was about 7 years old, the other was cheaper & prolly 3-4 admittedly I wish that one lasted longer.

Starting over, I picked up 2 new tripods I feel I got good value from:
E-Image EG04AS 2-Stage Aluminum Tripod System with GH04 Dual-Base Fluid Head - A new item altogether, the tripod a step down is well reviewed so I have high hopes for this one. New item, backordered, I'll let you know when I rec'v https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1381392-REG/e_image_eg04as_lightweight_tripod_kit_with.html/BI/2855/KBID/3801

Magnus VT 4000 - Seems like a good backup. Reliable, oft reviewed & tried & tested. I did receive it, definitely seems sturdy. The fluid head isn't bad, but probably not what one wants for their main cameras tripod. Again, a solid backup (for my tastes). https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/842086-REG/Magnus_VT_4000_VT_4000_Tripod_System.html/BI/2855/KBID/3801

I had a bad ending to 2017 wedding season where both tripods started to go. Leg locks began slipping. The good tripod was about 7 years old, the other was cheaper & prolly 3-4 admittedly I wish that one lasted longer.

Starting over, I picked up 2 new tripods I feel I got good value from:
E-Image EG04AS 2-Stage Aluminum Tripod System with GH04 Dual-Base Fluid Head - A new item altogether, the tripod a step down is well reviewed so I have high hopes for this one. New item, backordered, I'll let you know when I rec'v https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1381392-REG/e_image_eg04as_lightweight_tripod_kit_with.html/BI/2855/KBID/3801 (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1381392-REG/e_image_eg04as_lightweight_tripod_kit_with.html/BI/2855/KBID/3801/BI/2855/KBID/3801)

Magnus VT 4000 - Seems like a good backup. Reliable, oft reviewed & tried & tested. I did receive it, definitely seems sturdy. The fluid head isn't bad, but probably not what one wants for their main cameras tripod. Again, a solid backup (for my tastes). https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/842086-REG/Magnus_VT_4000_VT_4000_Tripod_System.html/BI/2855/KBID/3801 (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/842086-REG/Magnus_VT_4000_VT_4000_Tripod_System.html/BI/2855/KBID/3801/BI/2855/KBID/3801)
So I purchased them. They're both great. I had my one tripod sorta begin to fail on me last year, and the other broke so I shot my last wedding or two with a bit of an old Best Buy type tripod as my #2.

The Magnus is durable, well reviewed & seems its been around a while, well reviewed. The E-Image is great! Definitely can be used as a #1 with fluid head. My only gripe is its a little bit big, nothing extraordinary but def larger than my previous. Not heavy though, the aluminum keeps its weight down. Comes with a very nice bag too.

If your in the market I highly recommend, at $250 its a very good price.