Hey guys, short form, medium format, long form. 19 bookings for 2014 and not one has wanted a short form (mine 30 minutes long).. The feedback is we want to see as much as possible?
Yes i have told them at the end of the film you will get all the speeches and ceremony, but still the same no i like your medium format better.
Anyone else getting this? Steve

Hi Steve, what are you charging for each? Same?

Try this, put the price of the short form up. Also, when people get in touch are you showing them an example of a short form, long form or both?

We used to offer both and in a year only 1 went for the long form. We then dropped it totally and our new sister studio is also short form only (A Hint of Mint Ltd | Wedding Video / Films | Wedding Videographer based near London UK (http://www.ahintofmint.co.uk)).

Maybe a regional thing?

Hey guys, short form, medium format, long form. 19 bookings for 2014 and not one has wanted a short form (mine 30 minutes long).. The feedback is we want to see as much as possible?
Yes i have told them at the end of the film you will get all the speeches and ceremony, but still the same no i like your medium format better.
Anyone else getting this? Steve

ALL THE TIME Steve, all the time. Like you I don't have a single short form only video booking this year.

Maybe it's northern brides who just want more for less, I really don't know, though I've talked to a few people around the country and they are saying the same thing.

Persuading people that they don't want/need absolutely every minute of the ceremony and every minute of the speeches can sometimes (actually often) be an up hill battle. The whole reason they want a video is not the amazing highlights, great as they are, it's because they want the memories of the day in full and to see things they missed, even in the ceremony. If we choose to edit that bit out they'd never see it and they hate the thought of missing anything.

From recent inquiries, people are definitely looking for cheaper packages and seem more willing to give up the cinematic short form / highlights / trailers than they are the full ceremony & full speeches.

While it's true that people will can only buy what you sell, so tell them what you want to sell and nothing more, sometimes you just have to sell what they want to buy and get on with it.

I think the majority of this industry got really hung up on the DSLR shallow DOF effect wow videos we see posted and forgot what the majority of brides in this area at least actually want.

Producing the wow videos is great for morale, a real sense of satisfaction and a job well done, but if you still have to put food on the table at the end of it then selling what they want to buy is how it's done.

My packages are short form only but they can choose to have the ceremony or long speeches completely separately and I charge extra for that, they always choose the extra parts that include the full coverage of longer events.

Hi Steve, what are you charging for each? Same?

Try this, put the price of the short form up. Also, when people get in touch are you showing them an example of a short form, long form or both?

We used to offer both and in a year only 1 went for the long form. We then dropped it totally and our new sister studio is also short form only (A Hint of Mint Ltd | Wedding Video / Films | Wedding Videographer based near London UK (http://www.ahintofmint.co.uk)).

Maybe a regional thing?
Maybe Danny I think bit is regional! With respect to liverpool they are a northern hard breed and want a lot for their money! Fir sure I sit them down and they still book medium to long!

ALL THE TIME Steve, all the time. Like you I don't have a single short form only video booking this year.

Maybe it's northern brides who just want more for less, I really don't know, though I've talked to a few people around the country and they are saying the same thing.

Persuading people that they don't want/need absolutely every minute of the ceremony and every minute of the speeches can sometimes (actually often) be an up hill battle. The whole reason they want a video is not the amazing highlights, great as they are, it's because they want the memories of the day in full and to see things they missed, even in the ceremony. If we choose to edit that bit out they'd never see it and they hate the thought of missing anything.

From recent inquiries, people are definitely looking for cheaper packages and seem more willing to give up the cinematic short form / highlights / trailers than they are the full ceremony & full speeches.

While it's true that people will can only buy what you sell, so tell them what you want to sell and nothing more, sometimes you just have to sell what they want to buy and get on with it.

I think the majority of this industry got really hung up on the DSLR shallow DOF effect wow videos we see posted and forgot what the majority of brides in this area at least actually want.

Producing the wow videos is great for morale, a real sense of satisfaction and a job well done, but if you still have to put food on the table at the end of it then selling what they want to buy is how it's done.

Good points Dave!!
In the end my medium forms are very cinematic and I do stipulate I don't do hyms and other bits so I am ok with the medium formats, it is slightly easier to edit than short form as you know! Ah well keep plodding on! If I go all short form I probably would have no orders so I should be grateful!! Cheers guys

This is interesting, as I have just come in from a visit to a potential client and this is the first thread I have looked at.

This particular couple had contacted me by email and tried to beat me down in price, which I refused to do and explained my reasons. They emailed me again and asked for a meeting which I had this evening, an hours drive both ways. They made me a cup of tea, I played with their dog and their 3 year old sat on my lap while we went through his Toy Story figures. After about 30 minutes of general chatter, I suggested that we talked about their wedding. After asking me various questions about what they would get and looking intently at an example, the Bride suddenly said 'That is refreshing to see and hear!' I asked her what she meant and they said that they had had 2 other video companies visiting and 4 others sent demos, and all but one offered very polished film like videos ranging from 15-30 minutes as their main package. The remaining company offered various packages and prices covering different parts of the day. None offered what they wanted, which was a documentary video of their whole day, showing them, their friends and family enjoying their special day. I happily came away with a request for a booking contract which I gave them after asking them to be sure before signing it.

Based on previous experience, I am very confident that they will sign and return it over the next couple of days. It does help to reinforce my long held belief that in the UK, those companies that are predominantly offering short form are competing for a small part of an already small wedding video market. That is in no way trying to denigrate those that offer superb short form with high technical and artistic values and indeed many that do are fully booked, but I have not even been asked if I can do them at all this last few years, so have to assume that certainly in my area, there is little demand.

Roger

I'm definitely also with Roger here with regards to what the bride wants.
Despite being at risk of getting slaughtered here, I have to ask if anyone actually does ask what the bride wants or has the short form cinematic video been "designed" by videographers to show off their creative talents and make them look artistic ???

I admit that the cinematic style is very pleasant to look at and all in all it's simply a product and with adequate skill anyone can sell a product. It may not capture all the memories that a bride needs but with sufficient salesmanship she could be convinced that this is all she needs.

If I was a bride and wanted memories of my wedding I'm sure I would want everything captured not just fleeting moments chosen by the videographer.

So I do need to ask the question now ... If you only do short form what is the reason ..Is it for satisfaction of your own creative skills or does it make you as a videographer look impressive or is it simply easier (or less time consuming) to shoot. As already explained by Roger, it seems that most brides don't want half of their memories left out.

Chris

Chris, your comments remind me of "don't sell the sausage, sell the sizzle".

The Cinematic form may be more of the sizzle. But do brides actually want the sizzle or the sausage? Like you say, has anyone asked them?

Hi Tim

I'm not saying I'm right at all ..I could be very wrong but I would have assumed that if you want memories do you want just fleeting ones??? I have yet to seem a reason for short fancy videos being offered .... are they to impress the bride? or do they make the video guy look impressive?? I'm simply saying that are brides happy with short form and are those memories enough?

Chris

I started doing short form edits back in the 90s. Probably about 97 after hearing about a guy in New Jersey that did them. (Robert Allan Erhlich). I did them to keep myself from going insane. Remember back them we delivered VHS tape finished product. Once I got into Non lineal editing I stopped delivering long form and went with straight short form. My business dropped off. Everyone loved the short form but also wanted the long form. since I started with the long form anyway to get to the short form it wasn't a big deal to deliver both. So that's what I started to do again and my business improved.
In my area while there weren't too many people doing short form it seemed that those that were and are today DO deliver both short form (this can be up to 30 minutes which is what mine generally were) AND long form which was nothing more than a cleaned up version of the RAW footage. Some though like myself figured since I was already into it why not make it right. I charged for it of course but keeping in mind that while Chicago is a very large market place it is also one of the lowest priced markets for video. No clue as to why...not important to this conversation.
IMO if you're going to charge big and deliver a great short form product why not take a little extra time and give them the cleaned up RAW footage (long form) so no one can say anything to you. They got it all! Done and done!

Don, I'm not too far away from you and it is the same here. They want a shorter version to show friends and family, but they want the whole thing, too, for themselves. All of my clients originally requested the full show through the end of the reception. Only a couple had to cut out the end of the reception for financial reasons. My nights are normally late as they pay to keep me recording until the end. Some even pay extra for all the raw footage... In light of some recent news, I always watch AND listen to all the raw footage before giving to a client. No reason to ruin someone's day over a drunk comment from a guest or a "not to bright" photographer's second shooter.

Some great points guys thanks for joining the discussion. I feel better now...

Byron said...I always watch AND listen to all the raw footage before giving to a client. No reason to ruin someone's day over a drunk comment from a guest or a "not to bright" photographer's second shooter

Absolutely. It's a 100% PITA to do it but I've caught a few things that I didn't hear in the headphones during the shoot. I always tried to mark down some sort of landmark if I heard something, timecode, scene description something so I could be aware of it during editing. Some people forget or don't care that they're standing next to me and say something that's inappropriate. Not so much during the ceremony but certainly during the dancing at the reception. Luckily I've only missed 1 thing and the B&G didn't care but I always tried to catch those things. Nothing can ruin your reputation faster than leaving inappropriate remarks in the final version.

Just thought you might be interested in a footnote to my earlier post about the couple I visited last night. I received this email at 8.00am this morning.......

--------------------------------------
'Good morning

You will pleased to here that we have chosen to use you for our wedding next year, we like the style and have not seen anyone else do it the way you do. Booking form is in the post and should arrive soon.

Mark'
--------------------------------------

I am delighted, but it does reinforce my thoughts about what couples actually want. You can sell a 'cinematic'
short form, but in my opinion it is in the same luxury item category as chocolate fountains, ice sculptures, etc. It looks great, is romantic and has the wow factor, but will still leave the client with no real record of what their day was actually all about. To a couple embarking on planning a wedding, most really have no idea what they actually want and can easily be drawn to things that have a high wow factor. The long form has no particular wow factor, but if done properly is a true record that they will regularly view in the future as a piece of family history for them and future generations.

Roger

...but in my opinion it is in the same luxury item category as chocolate fountains, ice sculptures, etc. It looks great, is romantic and has the wow factor, but will still leave the client with no real record of what their day was actually all about.
Roger

+1 to that Roger.

Roger, I personally love the "wow" of shorter versions, but my wife and I are both very happy we have a long form of our own wedding! Even those couples who might not think they need it, they will be very happy about the decision years down the road when they want to relive the day or show kids/grandkids.

With the social media age, brides love to share the shorter one with friends online and with portable devices. That is why all of our packages are long form, but we also provide the shorter one. It is an add-on, but so far, it is almost always added in! I, however, struggle with the thought of having the short form as the package and the long form as the add-on. I think producing a quality multicam long form edit is a whole lot more work. With short form, missing a shot here or good audio there can be hidden in post. With the long form, you can hide some mistakes with good editing, but there is a whole lot more pressure not to miss a moment. I think the short form got popular with a lot of young videographers due to the "cheap" DSLRs available, the freedom to be "artsy", and the main one- much less pressure to "get it right" all day. A new camera operator can make more mistakes with this form and get away with it. It is a "great" way to learn as you go...if that can be considered great.

Hi Roger

Couldn't have said it better myself. A +1 from me too!!

Sadly it seems (well here anyway) that all the newbies that have nothing else to do but get Daddy to buy them a camera and they become a wedding videographer and these always seem to go for the cinematic approach and a short form end result. I guess that they feel there is not point in slogging out a 10 day shoot when you can do it in half the time.

Sadly it ends up that the bride never really gets what she wants which essentially is memories. I agree 100% record the wedding and make sure you get it all then, by all means give them a highlight video at an extra cost with lots of eye candy to impress their friends! They, of course, still have all their memories in the long form version.

Chris

Byron, I absolutely agree with everything you have said. For this year's weddings, we are including a highlights video set to one of their chosen pieces of music, which they can show to friends etc who just want to see the juicy bits and have no interest in the family. I cannot see the value, as you say, in having the highlights as the main feature, even 20 minutes long, and the rest as an afterthought.

I have long said that a full length documentary style requires skill and expertise over a long period to accurately and effectively capture a whole day in an interesting way. The highlights video is the 'cream' shots, but once you've seen it a couple of times the interest wanes. The history lives indefinitely.

Roger

Roger we do the highlites to music we choose rather than them as a bad choice can kill you and your cream footage.
Also when I book brides now I tell them here is.a list of music that we use and go well with our edit. We now are editing to modern great music rather than their old boring music! It's working wonders for our editing and we are finding we can approach with a more cinematic editing. Steve

Roger we do the highlites to music we choose rather than them as a bad choice can kill you and your cream footage.
Also when I book brides now I tell them here is.a list of music that we use and go well with our edit. We now are editing to modern great music rather than their old boring music! It's working wonders for our editing and we are finding we can approach with a more cinematic editing. Steve

WHAT! You don't use Take That and greatest day! And you call yourself a wedding videographer. PAH!

Hahaha nice one Danny...

It seems the more toys we as videographers have to play with the more stress we bring on ourselves. If go back five ten years, we simply filmed everything and handed over a 2 hour dvd.

I myself have been guilty of trying to find shots that are aesthetically pleasing however do the brides really care? They seem to be happy with just a long film with maybe two cameras recording everything. Cinematic should be a 15-20min movie.

I think a few people have hit the nail on the head. The short form cinematic movie gives the filmmaker the opportunity to display their creative talents whilst also catering for the massive social media marketing phenomenon. These days people market their business through facebook and the like and it has become the perfect platform for short form wedding movies.

Also I have noticed that many younger filmmakers don't even consider a regular camcorder for the task of wedding video ... it's just not on their radar. I agree with whoever said previously that many people now filming weddings are coming from a stills background so the equipment is more to their taste.

As we re all very aware it's the audio of a wedding, or any live event that is the most difficult to capture correctly. For this reason alone many are opting for a "simple" music over lots of fancy footage. Capturing clean audio is of secondary importance as it doesn't even enter their head that people want to hear any of the original sound ... it's all about the vision.

I have been filming weddings for 20 years and up til recently only ever used video cameras .. all brands, Sony, Canon and Panasonic. I bought a Panasonic GH 3 because it's an excellent camera, and I use it for capturing bridal preparations, photo shoots, reception dancing etc .... but I use my other cameras for anything that needs decent audio.

So what I provide is a short cinematic piece using footage from all cameras edited into a social media friendly length ... this is then given to the bride and groom as soon as possible after the wedding. Then in due course they receive the more traditional long form of the whole day. I guess I'm looking for the best of both worlds ... a chance to be creative and try out some new techniques ... to keep myself fresh if you like, and also to provide what I know most brides want ... a full record of their day.

This works well for me as the short form gives me material to show people and gets me plenty of new contacts as that's what they saw on someones facebook page. When they contact me, we discuss their day and I explain what I deliver and everyone is always happy with that. Sometimes because of cost people don't worry about the reception or occasionally the bridal preparations but that's not the normal for me.

I guess I'm looking for the best of both worlds ....

Same here. I don't even ask the brides -- they just know that they'll be getting a trailer (couple minutes), highlights montage of about 15 minutes, and then the "running footage" of the day/ceremony. That seems to take the guesswork out of it for me/them.

My "highlights" I suppose is what some call the "short form". I use toasts/words as a narrative and do a semi-chronological/thematic edit of the day. The more I can use from toasts/ceremony for a narrative, the more creative I can tend to be.

Anyway -- this has just been a model that's worked for me.

Good post Richard and I think that also brings up a point that the shortform and longform are totally different animals. There is absolutely no doubt on my mind that a long form documentary style is the only way to capture a full wedding. The shortform is a chance to use artistic interpretation to produce a carefully crafted précis of the wedding. I don't think a shortform video can ever be instead of a full length, but those who genuinely don't want a record of their whole day may well be attracted to the instant glossy wow factor of a shortform video.

As Richard pointed out, there is a place for both or either, but one doesn't replace the other any more than a chocolate fountain will replace a buffet. (Mind you a chocolate buffet might be rather nice :-) )

Roger

It's funny, because as a Wedding DJ/MC, I'm all about choices and laying out options for my brides/grooms, but from the videography side, it's the exact opposite. We do want their input about what is important to them, but in the end, we give them very few real choices about how the sausage is made. If, after I've finished, they let me know of an issue (they hate a song I chose, for example) then I'll make a change gladly, but I would never give them carte blanche to choose their own soundtrack in highlights.

I feel there are 3 different (main) wedding videos we can make. Here is what I think of them, and their intended purposes... We now always provide both the highlights (15 minutes) AND the full length video. We no longer bother with trailers, though I should make one as a demo reel.

a trailer - usually 3-5 minutes. This really is just a teaser, something to get them excited about their main wedding video

Highlight film - long enough to show of major events plus smaller moments from the day. When we're there all day, it's often 15-20 minutes long. Long enough to tell their story, but not to show EVERYTHING. It's not full speeches, but the best, most impactful parts. Usually some time shifting. It's designed to be enjoyed by more than just the bride and groom or their parents. It's how the day felt, not what happened. I always sound track the entire video. Easy to post online and share with a wider range of friends and family.

Full wedding day (documentary style, usually). I can't imagine anyone other than the B&G and their parents (maybe best friends) watching this because it's so long. This is the 'as it happened' video, though sometimes they still have me leave bits out, like a song from the church. Ours are often 60-90 minutes. I use original music. The entire 1st dance, speeches, ceremony are there, plus anything else that might be worthwhile from the day. I still soundtrack parts like 'getting ready' but mostly it's as is. We still use multiple camera angles during the ceremony, speeches, first dance, but we don't edit for effect.

I see a lot of you are 'across the pond' from me, and I have a strong suspicion that there
are some regional 'norms' that may come in to play. But beyond that, we often talk about
'brides' and 'what 'brides want' as if they fit into some neat category. I get individuals, who
all want different things. Short form, long form, medium form, just a music video, all
24 hours from waking until sleeping, interviews with friends and family, how we met story,
trash the dress, we don't need the reception, as its just eating and drinking, we need every
second of the reception as we will be to busy to see all the moments......and so on.

I do look at trends. I've had quite a few brides tell me that they want a 'short' video that they
can show their friends, and that their friends will actually watch with them and not 'get bored'.
I started offering a music video and it is my most popular wedding offering. Around five
minutes of highlights from the day. Some also purchase full ceremony, multi cam package.
Others just wish to buy raw footage from my music video, as I still spend all day shooting.
However, I partner with a photographer, she does photos and I do the music video and we offer
it as a package. Maybe that is part of it, this style if video is similar to 'photos' as it gives
'Highlights' of the day and not 2 whole hours....being paired with a photographer may help
sell this style? Not sure but I have plenty opting for just the highlights video. I do include
'breaks' from the music for audio of vows, toasts, etc....but the videos are not very long,
always under 10 minutes. Of course some want full ceremony and I will do that too.

I think the points made to my post have been brilliant! There is no real answer? When we meet our bride and grooms we want to show them our work? They look we have the speel and try to sell! They choose! Short form maybe for some! Medium format(I now do) for some! Long form for some!
This is the great thing about freedom of choice no one is right no one is wrong! It's all about what they want and in this game for 8 years I now find I still cannot work out what they want! Well to a degree any way! One day I can book a bride without even giving them a drink, next day they want champagne throughout the show. One loves short form others don't.
But still irrelevant I am sticking to my medium format which is a mix of long and short. And keeps everyone of my clients happy, not to boring not to short. Steve

And the way I see it, too, (and I've said this in other posts), if I'm going to go through all the footage anyway to make the Highlights (which I do), then I might as well include that nicely cleaned up full-footage as chapters in the disc, too. It's just part of the workflow.

The Highlights, though, is the real centerpiece. The disc starts with this (unless they navigate to running footage chapters), and it's where I put 95% of the creative/artistic effort. But there certainly no minus in leaving (in separate chapters) that running footage since it's been edited/cleaned-up anyway.

Nice one Tim.

I don't know how much my insight is worth seeing that I've only been doing this a very short time, but I offer my brides a full-day edit plus a highlight video- I don't have packages. The highlight video is around 5 minutes in length. The reason I've decided to keep a short highlight format (delivered online, not on BluRay with the full-day edit, as of now), is that in this day and age, people want to share video online above all else. And in the age of online video, it is not my believe that the individuals you are sharing it with want to watch a long video of your wedding.

My videos are short enough to maintain interest, and give the viewer a good feeling of the day's events and visuals. I currently haven't made any videos that have any sort of background voice, such as a B&G describing how they met, or how much they love eachother, etc.- it's really just a montage of the day set to music. Perhaps in the future I may incorporate that, but for now my 5 minute videos are proving to be a hit.

I've only booked 6 weddings for this year so far, but that is with $0 in advertising or marketing. I don't even have business cards or a website yet- it's pure referral. And the only material that is selling my work for me to those referrals, are the 5 minute highlight reels that my brides are showing to their friends and family. However, my fees are verrry reasonable right now.

And the way I see it, too, (and I've said this in other posts), if I'm going to go through all the footage anyway to make the Highlights (which I do), then I might as well include that nicely cleaned up full-footage as chapters in the disc, too. It's just part of the workflow.

The Highlights, though, is the real centerpiece. The disc starts with this (unless they navigate to running footage chapters), and it's where I put 95% of the creative/artistic effort. But there certainly no minus in leaving (in separate chapters) that running footage since it's been edited/cleaned-up anyway.

Tim (or anyone else) can you explain to me what is meant by 'cleaned up' footage. I've seen this term used in a few threads by those that do highlight videos but also supply full length cleaned up footage. I assume it's just colour matched continuous shots, but not edited as such, but don't really know. After filming and editing well over 2000 doc style weddings, it would be nice to know what others mean ;-)

Roger

Hey Roger

Due to our age/experience I would say that having been thru the days where you were shooting analogue and doing linear edits we have learnt to shoot more carefully and almost edit in camera so for us a clean up of footage could be as simple as a top and tail of a clip to cut out any wobbles or extra footage. If one's WB is accurate then more often than not there is little or no colour correction either. Then again I have seen a post here last year on a DSLR all in manual done and uploaded showing an annoying photog and the poster showed just the raw footage. That one would have required many many hours of careful edits to eliminate all the out of focus bits so that would have been a lengthy process.

To me you either have edited footage or raw footage ..no in-betweens at all .. so "cleaned up" footage to me is what the bride sees from start to end ... I don't think anyone would supply long form only half edited?

Surely not?

Chris

Hey Roger,
For me cleaned up footage means whatever color correction might be needed, taking out the air especially during a ceremony...."Aunt Mary will now come forward and do the first reading..." and it takes her 30 seconds to get from the pew to the pulpit, removing background noises if possible and needed again mostly for the ceremony, reception footage is pretty simple for me to clean up. Mostly cutting heads and tails of clips. I do adjust audio levels a bit if needed but honestly 99% of what I do if it wasn't done would only make the video longer. I do most for to pick up time and it doesn't take me long to do it. Like you after so many weddings you get pretty quick at what you do in the edit bay.
Oh yeah, let me also state that since I've retired from weddings I won't be doing any of that anymore and my friend...I am a happy old man! WooHoo! ;-)

So .....Editing then.....:-)

Don, my wife is fully up to speed with filming, photography, editing, customer liason etc, so as she is a lot younger and prettier than me, I confidently expect her to take the majority of the work while I spend more of my time flying and sailing. Can't wait, although I still enjoy the filming at the moment.

Roger