Dear Friends,

Today, our Convergent Design team announced that we will soon enable 4K video recording with Apple ProRes 422 HQ on the Odyssey7Q Monitor/Recorder.

Here is the link to the announcement on DVInfo.net:

Odyssey7Q Adds 4K ProRes Recording at DV Info Net (http://www.dvinfo.net/news/odyssey7q-adds-4k-prores-recording.html)

This will be a free firmware update that is expected to be released near the end of this month (September, 2014).

To be clear, our new firmware release will support recording both 4K (4096 x 2160) and Ultra HD/Quad HD (3840 x 2160).

The Odyssey7Q will accept 4K and Ultra HD video, over quad-link HD-SDI, from cameras such as the Sony F55, Panasonic GH4, Vision Research Phantom Flex4K, and others.

Other cameras, such as the Sony FS700, the new Sony FS7, and the Canon C500, output 4K and/or Ultra HD in a Raw format. The Odyssey7Q will soon also support recording 4K/UHD/QHD from these cameras provided one has the appropriate Odyssey7Q Raw Option enabled.

Our goal, of course, is to support as many 4K and UHD/QHD cameras as possible.

Being able to record 4K in the very popular Apple ProRes 422 HQ codec offers the ability to record for long durations (3 Hours and 14 minutes with two 512 GB SSD's) and provides a very easy Post workflow.

Mitch Gross and Amber Cowles will be happy to discuss our new 4K support, and our Odyssey7 and Odyssey7Q in general, at our booth, 10.A24, at IBC, which started today. Our booth is in Building 10.

Respectfully,

Dear Friends,

I just learned that Sony has announced an upgrade for the Sony F5, for $998, that adds 4K outputs to the camera. This is scheduled for release in December, 2014. This upgrade also supports internal 4K recording.

Thus, soon one will be able to record 4K Apple ProRes 422 HQ from the F5 as well as from the F55.

Respectfully,

and the new Sony F7 as well?

If I read this correctly, the 7Q will NOT be able to record UHD/4K over HDMI 1.4? (Like the HDMI output of a Sony A7s or AX100)

CT

and the new Sony F7 as well?

Dear Steve,

Do you mean the new Sony PXW-FS7, which some were calling the F7 before the actual announcement?

If so, then the Odyssey7Q should be ready to record from this camera when it ships.

Or do you mean the Sony A7s?

Respectfully,

If I read this correctly, the 7Q will NOT be able to record UHD/4K over HDMI 1.4? (Like the HDMI output of a Sony A7s or AX100)

CT

Dear Cliff,

The Odyssey7Q's HDMI input does not support frame rates higher than 1080p30,
nor does it support formats higher than HD (1920 x 1080).

Thus, at this time, our Odyssey7Q cannot accept 4K, from the HDMI output of the A7s.

But, we can support HD, from the A7s over HDMI.

Respectfully,

Hi Dan,

On a different thread you briefly mentioned that your colleagues at CD noticed that the Sony A7s disables or shuts off it's SLOG-2 on its HDMI out. (you see SLOG-2 on the camera screen but the HDMI output is shifted to rec709)

Can you please clarify that for all of the A7s owners?

If that is true, are you aware of any attempts by Sony to fix that bug?

I must say that reading your post about it was very disturbing.

Any more info that you might have would be great.

Thank you Dan

CT

Dear Cliff,

We have had two customer report this issue.

With our current firmware, when we record the footage from any camera, we do not apply a "Recording LUT".

We do, optionally, apply a "Viewing LUT", for example converting S-Log 2 to Rec. 709 for viewing.

We feel that this issue deserves more investigation.

If with remove the Odyssey7Q completely from the equation, we, and others have found that when the A7s is in S-Log 2 mode, the HDMI output, as displayed on any professional monitor looks more like Rec. 709 than S-Log 2.

Thus, we feel that this issue needs to be addressed by Sony.

Respectfully,

Dan,

You are right! I just got home and did an HDMI recording from the A7s. I shot in both in camera XAVC-S and external ProRes in SLOG-2. (100% identical settings for both files)

I took both files into Sony Vegas and inspected them on the waveform scopes. You are absolutely right! The internal XAVC-S recording was certainly SLOG-2 "flat" just like the monitor shows...however, the HDMI ProRes recording had SUBSTANTIALLY more contrast. (Damit!)

Highlights that were set at 70 IRE on SLOG-2 internal XAVC-S.... were exactly 80 IRE from the HDMI recording. A shadow object that was 10 IRE from internal SLOG-2 file were exactly 0 IRE from the HDMI output.

There is DEFINITELY a contrast difference between internal vs. what is output on HDMI...and it does significantly reduce SLOG-2's effectiveness. (WTF?)

Why is this happening to the HDMI port? (2 possible reasons)

1.) This is a bug or glitch in the firmware. Sony will fix this soon in a firmware release and all will be forgiven by A7s fans.

2.) This is NOT a glitch because Sony "want's" true SLOG-2 trapped inside it's internal 1080 recording only. They don't want people using SLOG-2 outside of internal 4:2:0 1080 recording.


Scenerio #2 is perfectly within Sony's right to cripple their camera any way they choose. However, they MUST do this ONLY after disclosing this to their customers "before" they buy their cameras. This is the FAIR way to treat customers.

Sony needs to have a disclaimer in all their marketing that states:

* "The HDMI output does not match what is displayed on the camera monitor"

or

* "SLOG-2 has been disabled for external HDMI recording"

This would be fine. However, I see no disclaimers of this nature on ANY A7s marketing materials. Playing "surprise....gotcha!!" tricks are no way to treat valuable Sony customers.

Dan, you are right! This needs to be investigated by Sony and all A7s owners right away.

This is a potentially serious problem and one that Sony should address immediately. In the next months, there will be THOUSANDS of A7s users that will be recording from HDMI. (It's a MAJOR feature of the A7s that even Sony is using to sell the cameras against the GH4 competition)

If Sony does not want to fix this problem, there are potential grounds here for a class action lawsuit from A7s owners.

OK, that's a drastic move. let's just see what Sony says about this and give them a chance to fix it.

Thanks Dan and CD for noticing this HDMI SLOG-2 problem.

CT

Hi dan,

Maybe the output from the a7s would be different at 60p hdmi2? Or I presume the test monitors might have been hdmi 2?

Any further news regarding hdmi 2 upgrade path for the 7q for a7s 4k? It seemed a few months back you guys were on the verge of at least announcing a direction. Eg you confirmed a7s 4k to 7q would happen. You were just narrowing down ways of doing it and timeframes.

Any further news on the direction for 7q hdmi 2 or other method a7s 4k support?

Atmos were saying in a vid shogun out in oct I think, so you are probably pretty close to missing those early adopters waiting to do 4k with a7s.

At least knowing there is progress on this from cd might sway people to wait.

Cheers

Will the C500 4k to Pro Res 4k be in this update or a future one? The "will soon also" confused me a bit.

Thanks!



"Other cameras, such as the Sony FS700, the new Sony FS7, and the Canon C500, output 4K and/or Ultra HD in a Raw format. The Odyssey7Q will soon also support recording 4K/UHD/QHD from these cameras provided one has the appropriate Odyssey7Q Raw Option enabled"

Or have you been planning to use the blackmagic 4k hdmi to 4k sdi convertor? And thus not been able to say what the direction was :)

Hi dan,

Maybe the output from the a7s would be different at 60p hdmi2? Or I presume the test monitors might have been hdmi 2?

Any further news regarding hdmi 2 upgrade path for the 7q for a7s 4k? It seemed a few months back you guys were on the verge of at least announcing a direction. Eg you confirmed a7s 4k to 7q would happen. You were just narrowing down ways of doing it and timeframes.

Any further news on the direction for 7q hdmi 2 or other method a7s 4k support?

Atmos were saying in a vid shogun out in oct I think, so you are probably pretty close to missing those early adopters waiting to do 4k with a7s.

At least knowing there is progress on this from cd might sway people to wait.

Cheers


Dear Kieran,

The A7s video, when the camera is in S-Log 2 mode, does not look like S-Log 2.

Of course this video is output over HDMI, but this is not an HDMI issue. The HDMI signal path faithfully transmits the video generated by the camera.

------

I am sorry, but we are not ready to announce 4K over HDMI support.

We have stated, I hope clearly, that this is a hardware issue, where our HDMI receiver chip in the Odyssey7Q will not process any HDMI signal higher than 1080p30, thus 1080p60 and 4K cannot be received.

These limitations were due to the HDMI receiver chips which were available at the time.

-------

We have not yet found a suitable 4K HDMI to 4K HD-SDI converter.

The converters that we know of, including the ones we purchased to prove whether they would work or not, have not solved the problem.

Of course, we would love for someone to build a suitable converter, one that takes 4K HDMI and outputs 4K either with Dual Link HD-SDI 3G or Quad Link HD-SDI 1.5G.

We tested a BlackMagic Design 4K HDMI to 4K HD-SDI converter, but it does not output Dual Link HD-SDI 3G over the two HD-SDI outputs, at least it did not when we tested it. When new models come on the market, we will certainly test them.

While we could design and build such a device, but our engineers are very busy with other projects, including our 4K Apple ProRes 422 HD support, which we expect to release around the end of this month.

Just to be clear, we are working on elegant ways to support the A7s. We are very impressed with this camera, and we feel that it will be very popular. We started working to support this camera as soon as we learned of the A7s and its capabilities.

------

We want to earn the loyalty of our customers. We hope we have been very clear as to what our current Odyssey7Q can do, and cannot do.

Respectfully,

Will the C500 4k to Pro Res 4k be in this update or a future one? The "will soon also" confused me a bit.

"Other cameras, such as the Sony FS700, the new Sony FS7, and the Canon C500, output 4K and/or Ultra HD in a Raw format. The Odyssey7Q will soon also support recording 4K/UHD/QHD from these cameras provided one has the appropriate Odyssey7Q Raw Option enabled"


Dear Chris,

No, our planned 4K Apple ProRes 422 HQ firmware release, due out around the end of this month, will not include C500 support (for recording 4K Apple ProRes 422 HQ).

It will include support for cameras that can output 4K/Ultra HD(Quad HD) over Quad Link HD-SDI 1.5G outputs.

And it will include support for the Sony FS700/FS7 with Expansion Pack.

To the best of my knowledge, the C500 can't output 4K video (not Raw) over the available HD-SDI outputs.

We have to add support to deBayer the C500's 4K Raw outputs, which we can certainly do, but we do not have this ready yet.

We had already developed the FS700/FS7 4K Raw to 4K Video deBayer.

This was required for our FS700/FS7 4K to HD Apple ProRes 422 HQ mode which has proven to be very popular.

This provided a jump start for us, so that we could support the FS700/FS7 in our initial 4K Apple ProRes 422 HQ release.

Respectfully,

Thanks dan!

So though it's not elegant, sounds like if I wanted to use the bmd box I mentioned and then the bmd Mini Converter SDI Multiplex 4k I could get the a7s signal into the 7q to at least see what it's 4k is like as of your next fw release? Or would it work now to dpx or something?

Cheers

Dear Chris,

No, our planned 4K Apple ProRes 422 HQ firmware release, due out around the end of this month, will not include C500 support (for recording 4K Apple ProRes 422 HQ).

It will include support for cameras that can output 4K/Ultra HD(Quad HD) over Quad Link HD-SDI 1.5G outputs.

And it will include support for the Sony FS700/FS7 with Expansion Pack.

To the best of my knowledge, the C500 can't output 4K video (not Raw) over the available HD-SDI outputs.

We have to add support to deBayer the C500's 4K Raw outputs, which we can certainly do, but we do not have this ready yet.

We had already developed the FS700/FS7 4K Raw to 4K Video deBayer.

This was required for our FS700/FS7 4K to HD Apple ProRes 422 HQ mode which has proven to be very popular.

This provided a jump start for us, so that we could support the FS700/FS7 in our initial 4K Apple ProRes 422 HQ release.

Respectfully,

Hi Dan,

Have you contacted Sony about this issue with the A7s and it's problem with SLOG-2 gamma curve from it's HDMI port? They are more likely to pay attention to Convergent Design than a common consumer buyer.

I'm calling Sony myself next week. Unfortunately, the A7s is supported but Sony's consumer dept and not it's pro/broadcast folks. (Pro is easily the sharpest support techs that Sony has) I suspect that their consumer Alpha support will probably not even understand what SLOG-2 even is. Will post what they say here soon.

Thanks for noticing this issue and speaking up about it!

Bravo to you and CD!

CT

Dear Cliff,

We know that our Sony contacts were extremely busy getting ready for the recent announcements and IBC.

We will be speaking with them after IBC is over.

I certainly do not feel that this was designed to cripple the camera.

I personally feel that someone felt that A7s users would be happier if their HDMI output (and thus the image on their HDMI televisions and monitors) would look better if it wasn't in S-Log 2.

I expect that Sony will address your request and the requests of others that want to record 4K from this wonderful camera.

Respectfully,

CALLING ALL A7s OWNERS!!!:

Please try this:

1.) Record S-LOG2 to the internal XAVC-S codec file. (try an easy non-moving scene)
2.) Record from the HDMI port.
3.) Bring both files in to your NLE.
4.) Analyse and compare each with waveform scopes and histograms.

What do you see? (see my attatchments)

This is something that should trouble all A7s owners and I'm trying to get more people to post their results.This is something that Sony must hear from A7s owners right away.

CT

I don't know if I'm not allowed to post test results from another site but here goes:

Sony A7s DESTROYS it's own SLOG-2 gamma curve over it's HDMI port (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?328412-Sony-A7s-DESTROYS-it-s-own-SLOG-2-gamma-curve-over-it-s-HDMI-port&p=1986476402&posted=1#post1986476402)

Another test from another A7s owner that displays this same problem,....

Any more A7s testers out there?

CT

Here is what people have determined so far: The A7s internal XAVC-S seems to use the 16-235 range and avoids exceeding the upper and lower end of that scale. However, it also seems that this is not so with the HDMI output. Values for that WILL exceed 16-235. The A7s adds contrast to that to bring those values to 0-255!

Its possible that it's not losing any image data by doing this. It simply maps "16" to "0" and "235" to "255" on the HDMI output.

This will certainly cause a noticeable (and alarming) difference in brightness between XAVC-S and HDMI recorded images. However, it might be OK because no real image data is lost in that process. (In theory and hopefully)

People are still trying to determine if the actual SLOG-2 gamma curve is maintained in this contrast spread.

Love to know more of what Convergent Design thinks.

CT

Dear Friends,

We have postponed the upcoming firmware update for the Odyssey7 and Odyssey7Q by a few weeks.

Two weeks ago at IBC we showed 4K ProRes 422 HQ capture and this functionality is complete.

But some additional features, while functioning, need to be completed in a reliable and user-friendly form for release. We expect to make this firmware update available in mid-October.

Respectfully,

Dan-
Thanks for the update....keep us posted.

Jim Martin
EVSonline.com

Dear Chris,

No, our planned 4K Apple ProRes 422 HQ firmware release, due out around the end of this month, will not include C500 support (for recording 4K Apple ProRes 422 HQ).

It will include support for cameras that can output 4K/Ultra HD(Quad HD) over Quad Link HD-SDI 1.5G outputs.

And it will include support for the Sony FS700/FS7 with Expansion Pack.

To the best of my knowledge, the C500 can't output 4K video (not Raw) over the available HD-SDI outputs.

We have to add support to deBayer the C500's 4K Raw outputs, which we can certainly do, but we do not have this ready yet.

We had already developed the FS700/FS7 4K Raw to 4K Video deBayer.

This was required for our FS700/FS7 4K to HD Apple ProRes 422 HQ mode which has proven to be very popular.

This provided a jump start for us, so that we could support the FS700/FS7 in our initial 4K Apple ProRes 422 HQ release.

Respectfully,


Hi Dan-

Is this still the case- is the new firmware able to debayer Canon 4K Raw and make it ProRes?

Thanks

Chris

Dear Chris,

We are busy working on adding 4K Apple ProRes 422 HQ support for the C500.

We will release it as soon as practical.

Thus, our initial 4K Apple ProRes HQ firmware release, 3.11.100,
does not have C500 support (for 4K Apple ProRes 422).

We can record the very popular C500, 2K format, in 2K Apple ProRes 422 HQ, at 23.976, 24.00, 25, and 29.97 fps

We also support recording 2K in DPX (full uncompressed).


Respectfully,

Hi Dan
Will the 7Q support 4k 50p ProRes at somepoint?
Thanks
Mat

Dear Matt,

Our 4K Apple ProRes 422 HQ is currently limited to up to 30 frames per second.

While we want to be able to support 4K Apple ProRes 422 HQ at 50 frames per second, we are not promising this.

This is a feature that we will not know, for certain, that we can actually achieve 50 fps, until we actually fully implement it.

I hope you appreciate that encoding 4K at 50 fps, requires us to do this in real-time, which is vastly different than a Non-Linear Editor on a computer that can render out 4K at 50 fps, but does so at whatever speed that it can achieve, even if this is only 10 frames per second.

And, in order to actually encode 50 frames per second, we may have to encode far more than 50 frames per second.

While this sounds strange, we have to meet Apple's target bit-rates, for each and every frame.

If we encode a frame, and we are not within + or - 10% of the target bit-rate, we have to try another way of encoding it so that we do meet the target bit rate.

This vastly increases the computational workload.

And encoding 4K at 30 fps, is the same as encoding 2K at 120 fps.

(4K, 4096 x 2160, can be thought of as four quadrants, with each quadrant being 2K.)

Ultra-HD / Quad HD, 3840 x 2160, can be thought of as four quadrants, with each quadrant being HD (1920 x 1080).

In summary, if we can get it to work recording 4K Apple ProRes 422 HQ at 50 frames per second, and we find that it works 100% of the time in our testing, then we will release it.



Respectfully,