A rumor site is reporting a rumor that the next Cinema EOS camera to be replaced is the C100. No timing was mentioned from the source, but it assumes it will be released before NAB 2014 (April).

Everyone's situation is different. I will rent between now and then, and see what the C100 replacement provides.

All my work is volunteer. I shoot stills more than video, using a 5D Mark III and a Canon 6D. I have a significant investment in Canon glass, and that investment will grow in the next year or two. I sold off my XA20 and XF100, and have (finally) decided against another camcorder for video work.

I am not interested in 4K (maybe I'm stupid). I would be interested in a better viewfinder, true progressive slow motion, a better native codec, including fixing the wrapper problem that causes NLE's to mistake progressive footage for interlaced footage.

NAB 2015 seems right (based on Canons typical 3 year timeline)! The price is right (pre-owned or new) for a C100 purchase today! You'll get great usage for the next 6 months (maybe a few months more), until the next best thing occurs (C200 or ???). It will pay for itself in no time.

Shoot now and enjoy today!

It does seem a bit strange they would replace the C100 next since it did come after the C300 and the C500. They had already crippled it so as not to hurt the sales of the C300, replacing it and addressing the issues such as the viewfinder and the codec makes the C300 obsolete.
it seems unlikely that they would replace it without also replacing the C300 and the C500.

I also think they won't bring out a new c100 before their flagships, the 300 and 500 get any improvement first, like Eddy said, any improvement on the c100 would make the older c300 obsolete. When and if it will come, it will have 4K, that should be certain, they have to because by then 4K will be the new standard on every camera sold.

Shoot now and enjoy today!

That's about the best advice I have heard today :)

From my contacts in the retail channel, I hear that the C100 has been a great little performer. Think about it, if you sell 2 C100s for every C300, that's okay. But if you sell 4x C100s for a C300, then perhaps you should accept that the market you're tickling is perhaps lower end than your aspirations. By all means have C300 and C500 market offerings, by all means demonstrate that the C300 is the ultimate docco camera, but if the C100 is what floats the market boat then milk it.

The C100 does have a lot of issues. The price point is right (now), but the offering is looking old.

The C100 frolics in the same playground as the XL2 did a while back. It excites the single owner operator with exceptional picture quality, surprises with great audio quality, but actually - underneath all that - there's so much work to do:

- Sort the PSF thing
- Move up from 8 bit to 10 bit (in the transition to 4K, this is important)
- Get rid of AVCHD, dare I say XAVC is good? Canon adopted HDV after all.
- Repair noise between IRE10 and IRE25 (why C-Log blacks starts at IRE20)
- Fix audio level recording
- Fix EVFLOL

But the problem is that the market is baying for 4K. The C300 and C100 do 4K natively and downsample to HD, which is how they get their mojo - they look like 3 chip cameras doing HD on a S35 sensor (the downsampling and debayer techniques).

I've asked about C500 sales - bit of a 'dead air' reply. I've asked about C300 sales - it's all good. I've asked about C100 sales - off the scale. Mad (and so it should be). Therefore, I can see Canon starting at the C100 range and building from there.

But then again, I'm crap at predictions. LOL

Richard, you sound just like me, first looking for a video cam, then settling on the C100. Although, I believe the new replacement will be above my pay grade, so I will get the current model..... besides I can't wait until next spring.

I'm wondering if the AVCHD format can be replaced with a firmware up grade perhaps a paid one? Other than that I would be quite happy with the current version, but who knows what Canon has up their sleeve.

I also think they won't bring out a new c100 before their flagships, the 300 and 500 get any improvement first, like Eddy said, any improvement on the c100 would make the older c300 obsolete. When and if it will come, it will have 4K, that should be certain, they have to because by then 4K will be the new standard on every camera sold.



That's about the best advice I have heard today :)

Noa, you know there is 4K, and then there is....... ///- 4K -\\\...... ! In other words there is Steak Ta-Ta, and there are Big Mac's! Cheap 4K looks well....... kinda cheap.

KineRAW Mini, Sony FS700, Canon 1Dc, Lumix GH4 - YouTube

I have no idea what you are trying to proof but I guess everyone is entitled of an opinion :) Unless you are trying to defend camera's that have not seen a significant update in years, 4K is the future!

I have no idea what you are trying to proof but I guess everyone is entitled of an opinion :) Unless you are trying to defend camera's that have not seen a significant update in years, 4K is the future!

I'm saying there is a big difference in the QUALITY of 4K, as the video shows. Putting cheap 4K in consumer cameras is different than $K in the 1DX. But these days people just throw around 4K like a frisbee.

There is more to an image than just 4K....... but don't tell a GH4 owner that!

I don't disagree with the logic behind thinking that the C100 would not be the first to be replaced.

As a DP/Producer who just bought a C100 package a few weeks ago, this rumor doesn't bother me in the least. I get around the terrible EVF and okay AVCHD codec with a Ninja Blade, the C100 has outstanding image and good sound. For my work, there is little that it is missing, the price was reasonable and the images are better than the 5D MKIII and I really like the images from the 5D MKIII. I have been renting C300s here and there for years and they are great but I didn't want to spend $13k for a camera.

I have been shooting 4K and greater cameras for a couple of years and for my work and my clients, none of that matters right now and won't for a few more years. 4K is fun but far from necessary for 95% of the work out there. It was the same at the dawn of HD, I shot 720p Panasonic cameras for years while everyone was braying that I had to buy a 1080 camera. It did eventually reach that point but 720 worked out fine for years. 1080 will be the same way. At this point, 4K is a spec to sell new cameras and televisions, that's about it. Very, very few users NEED 4K, don't buy into the hype. If you need it and can make money from it, more power to you, go for it but the vast majority need 4K like a hole in their wallets.

I do miss 1080 60P capability. That and greatly extended DR would be the only things that would make me want to sell and upgrade.

Dan:

Thanks for your comments. I was planning on getting a Ninja Blade, but worried about using it for hand-held situations (weight, bulk, cables coming unplugged). How has this been for you? I saw one photo on-line where someone taped a Ninja Star (the little one with no monitor) to the C100 handle.

Also regarding the codec wrapper, do you just manually tell PP or FCP-X that the footage is progressive and not interlaced, as others have suggested, or have you found a more automated approach?

Regarding the EVF, what is your work-around? The C-Cup (I already bought one) or the Zacuto Z-Finder for the C-100, or something else?

Richard,

I use the c100 with the Ninja 2 and found an HDMI cable with a swivel end. I plug that end in the cam. I found this really helps to avoid the hazard of bumping the cable and stressing the internal connections. The Ninja gives you an articulating monitor. And I did pick up the c-cup for the evf as well. I had originally thought that I would only use the Ninja when the project called for higher bit rate (which is why I didn't get the Blade), but I have found that using the Ninja is not onerous while shooting, and makes post work flow a breeze - in fact I have yet to shoot without it. I have never been a fan of avchd.

And Dan's post is bang on... Until you really need 4k (client demand or if it makes economic sense), why invest in tech that will surely improve in the coming months/years. The only real reason for higher rez is for larger projection or allowing for reframing in post.

Ken:

Thanks. How do you attach the Ninja 2 itself? I have seen various approaches. The Wooden Camera top plate seems like a less cumbersome approach if one does not need or want rails when going hand-held.

As others have stated, highly unlikely (about as unlikely as the rumored C200/400 at NAB 2014, which was a lie). The C300 will be the next to replace, then the 100. I expect Canon to not accelerate development and so you will probably see the C300 successor announced at next NAB and available end of next year/early 2016. Keep in mind that Canon has to develop a new DV Digic chip for 1080p60 and 4K, and I have not heard of the IV at all yet, so I would assume its debut will be in the C400 (if that's what they call it). If Canon sticks to its predictable schedule, you will not see a new C100 model until November 2016.

I am not interested in 4K (maybe I'm stupid). I would be interested in a better viewfinder, true progressive slow motion, a better native codec, including fixing the wrapper problem that causes NLE's to mistake progressive footage for interlaced footage.

The C100 is a 4K camera. It's an 8 megapixel sensor that is getting 4K and then doing a calculation to derive the "right" 8-bit 1080p image from there. So you truly are shooting in 4K, you're just not getting it in 4K. I can attest that the Ninja ProRes files off the C100 look very similar to ProRes encodes of Red Epic 4/5k material. On top of that, I have dealt with footage from a lot of Red shoot that were entirely posted as 1080p ProRes material at 24p, in which case the C100 would have held its own.

The better viewfinder option is the C-Cup. I have one and I dumped my Zacuto Z-Finder for it. I used it two nights ago on a shoot because I find that using the C-Cup on the viewfinder helps me keep the camera stable for handheld. I've used it so much that I am going to have to replace the chamois soon.

I use the AVCHD only as a proxy and a backup. I exclusively shoot either on the Ninja Star (for weight) or the Ninja Blade (for the screen), and almost always ProRes HQ.

For the PF option issues, first, never, ever shoot 24PF. There is zero reason to. Only shoot 24p, 30PF and 60i. Use ClipWrap on 30PF footage, problem solved (ClipWrap will not fix 24PF footage, you have to use either Compressor or After Effects for that).

Last, I do agree with the 60i option, and I wish Canon would unlock the 720p60 mode on the camera (both the Digic DV III processor and AVCHD can handle it, no reason not to have it). The problem with 60i deinterlace is that I hand off a lot of footage and don't want to deal with third-party editors unable to deal with that workflow.

And, remember, NEVER shoot 24PF!

The C100 is a 4K camera. It's an 8 megapixel sensor that is getting 4K and then doing a calculation to derive the "right" 8-bit 1080p image from there. So you truly are shooting in 4K, you're just not getting it in 4K.

Maybe a job for the boys over there at Magic Lantern!

Maybe a job for the boys over there at Magic Lantern!

Not possible. The reason ML Raw works for the 5D is because of Live View. A feature that was co-opted in order to record what was being shown in Live View onto the CF card. There is no possible way to do this on the C100 because the processing is all done well before the stream shows up on the LCD.

On top of that, the SD card slot simply isn't fast enough to save a raw video stream, and there's no way to process it without replacing the Digic DV III processor chip inside the body.

In other words, don't hold your breath.

Richard:

Sorry, I was out all day and didn't see your question. I totally 100% stole this idea and this image from Slavikb, but it is working great. It is the Cinevate Universal Mount and the Blade rides right over the eyepiece. No cable issues and it keeps the entire rig compact still.

Hey Dan,

I like that better than mine. Mine is a heavier bulkier mount from a chinese monitor I had kicking around.

Question: If you loosen the thumb screw, can you detach the monitor without unscrewing either 1/4 20 threaded end?

If so, I'm ordering one.

Could you not put a 16x9 Cine Lock on one end of the Cinevate mount, as a quick release? They appear to be relatively small.

Yes, you can. But it takes three washers underneath the thumb screw that you can't lose. One is a black nylon fitting, then a pot metal one, then a brass washer over that one.

Just a quick note here -- this thread has been moved to Area 51 where it belongs. I want to keep the camera tech boards focused solely on *information* and rumors are the exact opposite of information.

Also, we don't link to rumor sites, not even in Area 51. And while I'm being curmudgeonly, I'll point out that a particular site's self-styled "rumor gauge" of BS1, BS2, BS6 etc. has absolutely no meaning and no application here, so please don't reference it as if it makes any difference, as if it were real.

Because it ain't real. Not until the press release drops. And then it gets real, and then we're on it. Meanwhile, BS is BS no matter what number you put next to it.

Thanks for understanding and remember, there's *always* new product coming down the road, but it can't make money for you until you have it in your hands. The camera you have *now* is what should be making money / art / a living / a passion for you, and that's what we're here to discuss -- what's here and now.

Nothing wrong with talking about what you'd like to have in a replacement to the C100 -- in fact, I encourage that sort of discussion wholeheartedly -- but please, keep the BS rumor mill sites off of this forum. Thanks again,

My sincere apologies.

Chris-
You have to take Richard out to the shed! Rules are rules!

Jim Martin
EVSonline.com

My sincere apologies, Jim.

It's all good, Richard -- let's keep it going about wants / needs / desires on a C100 successor.

let's keep it going about wants / needs / desires on a C100 successor.

Okay then, just give me a 12-bit (or even 10-bit) Canon 1DC and I'm set. Can it be that hard?!

-- peer

Okay then, just give me a 12-bit (or even 10-bit) Canon 1DC and I'm set. Can it be that hard?!

-- peer

That's called a C300!

That's called a C300!

No, it's not -- the C300 isn't 4k.

-- peer

No, it's not -- the C300 isn't 4k.

-- peer

Right, but what I meant was why would they put 10 bit, or 12 bit in the C100, when the C300 doesn't even have it? Canon would put 10 bit in a new C300, and then perhaps the file format of the the C300 into the C100. At any rate you can bet the new C100's price will be right back up there again...... which is too expensive! Now at $4500 it's not bad.

If the C100 is back up at $7000, then even I who is somewhat loyal to Canon would be forced into a GH4 against my will.

I'm heading up to Denver today to buy a used C100 with a Samuri blade.

My apologies to Jim Martin for not getting a new one from him...... perhaps next time! And of course there will be a next time

If the C100 is back up at $7000, then even I who is somewhat loyal to Canon would be forced into a GH4 against my will.

I know what you mean, if Panasonic would raise their prices I"d be forced to buy a Canon against my will as well. Hope that will never happen.

Just kidding :) Great to see you found a c100, let us know (and see) what you your experience is with it, I"m most curious though to see if you find it easy to match it with your 5dIII.

No, it's not -- the C300 isn't 4k.

Actually, it is. It's 4K up-front that is downrezzed to 1080 for you. Considering that most of my 4K jobs involve the first post step of making ProResHQ 1080p files from Epic 4K/5K footage, the C300 gives you that look up front.

Okay then, just give me a 12-bit (or even 10-bit) Canon 1DC and I'm set. Can it be that hard?!

That would be the C500, actually. 10-bit 4K and 12-bit 2K.

Though I am curious...what does 10/12-bit get you right now that the C100/300 cannot do? I am looking for specifics, please.

If the C100 stays at HD rather than 4K, I'm totally cool with that. 50/60p? Clients want that and so do I. Slomo and Intervalometer with slow shutter? Hell yes, that should have been there from the get-go. And not that half-witted thing with the C300 either - 2 frames per interval in PAL mode? Shame on you, Canon.

Now, 4K is upon us. 10 bit is the future of Rec 2020. Canon needs to bin 8 bit, especially because of the noise in IRE20-30. Ugly.

I'll take 4:2:2 10 bit HD over 4:2:0 8 bit 4K.

The Cinema EOS line gets their image quality by sampling at 4K and downsampling to HD. I don't really want to lose that mojo. I just want more bit depth, I want better colour representation, and whilst I don't shoot cinema, I shoot corporate event, which does involve dark nightclub environments, heavy red and blue lighting schemes, and big skews on colour balance - hey, Canon, your white balance workflow sucks rocks through straws and completely denies your cameras a chance at the event top table, so we all use manual Kelvin selection and work hard in post. This is bad. Canon engineers should try shooting with Sony cameras in this respect, and learn how WB should be done.

I really don't mind Long-GOP compression for acquisition. It's the little things that Canon have cheaped out on - WB, low IRE noise suppression and rear panel colour balance. OTOH, their audio input is awesome - EXCEPT they decided to hobble it with no way to record two separate levels from one XLR input. Awesome fail, Canon. Awesome fail.

Canon engineers should try shooting with Sony cameras in this respect, and learn how WB should be done.

What do you mean specifically? How does Sony white balance operation differ from Canon's? Seems pretty similar to me, and I have used EX1/EX3, FS100/700.

EXCEPT they decided to hobble it with no way to record two separate levels from one XLR input. Awesome fail, Canon. Awesome fail.

That's been every single Canon with XLRs until the XF200 series. Hopefully, that is standard from here on out.

I'm heading up to Denver today to buy a used C100 with a Samuri blade.

My apologies to Jim Martin for not getting a new one from him...... perhaps next time! And of course there will be a next time
Doooh!
It's fine.....other than you're off the Christmas list!

Enjoy!
Jim Martin
EVSonline.com

I really don't mind Long-GOP compression for acquisition.
You may be aware of this, but I'll pick up on that quote because it may mislead others.

Let's be absolutely clear that *if all else is equal* the quality from long-GOP will be superior to that from an I-frame only codec - and by "all else equal" that includes bitrate.

What may have given long-GOP an (incorrect) bad name is that comparisons were made between a lowbitrate long-GOP system and a high bitrate I-frame only system - such as HDV and DVCProHD. It wasn't anything to do with long-GOP/I-frame only that made DVCProHD superior - it was the fact it was 4x the bitrate!

Hi David - the main reason I gave the Long-GOP a bill of health is because I do a lot of long records of people giving presentations.

I do get footage from around the world filmed on many formats that I must edit (and make look nice, and often do chromakey). I see a sort of pulsing - a sort of IBBP (BBP, BBP et al) pulsing - from long-GOP footage and this creates 'boil' in my chromakeys.

So if I seem pro-LongGOP it is with that in mind.

In general, a LongGOP format that is a third to a quarter of the bitrate of an iFrame codec is okay. That rough rule of thumb demonstrates that an AVCHD stream at 24 Mbps is like a 75-90 Mbps stream all-iFtame codec, but it still doesn't really wash for chromakey if you need to abolish the slight pulsing effect you will get by using a Long-GOP codec.

So I'd say yes, but a long-GOP codec gets an efficiency reducrtion of about 75% for being Long-GOP, so AVCHD scores on a 75 to 100 Mbps All Intra codec. Efficiencies of delta-compression and all that.

Well, here she is! I can't sleep I'm so excited! Now, I have enough to be dangerous.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa334/MichaelThames/7Y2B5697_zpse6ec7585.jpg (http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/MichaelThames/media/7Y2B5697_zpse6ec7585.jpg.html)

Congratulations, Michael!

I hope you had a safe drive back to Santa Fe.

Congratulations, Michael!

I hope you had a safe drive back to Santa Fe.

Thanks Richard, Yea, it was a nice drive not too bad, last time I was in Denver was when I was 16. Ahaw, I just noticed you live there too!

I love this camera, I think I learned everything there is to operating it within a couple of hours.... shot some test footage and it looked great! Richard, thanks for talking me out of the GH4..... ha ha!

It's here (already).

Please pick up the discussion at:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-video-industry-news/525475-canon-announces-2nd-generation-eos-c100-mark-ii.html

Actually, it is. It's 4K up-front that is downrezzed to 1080 for you..

Yea, so in post you'd still be working with 1080. Again, and to get back to the issue at hand -- "let's keep it going about wants/needs/desires" -- a prospective camera that would attract me would be a 12-bit 1DC. In fact, if the current 1DC had 10-bit, I'd already owned it. But to me a 8-bit 4k camera feels just like another case of canonitis disease:

CANONITIS
noun
- to never go the full step you really need to innovate and take over the market.

-- peer

Well, here she is! I can't sleep I'm so excited! Now, I have enough to be dangerous.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa334/MichaelThames/7Y2B5697_zpse6ec7585.jpg (http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/MichaelThames/media/7Y2B5697_zpse6ec7585.jpg.html)

Beautiful rig! Congrats!

Beautiful rig! Congrats!

Yep, and it actually reminds me a bit of my old old 5d2 rig:
My Old 5D2 Camera -- manhandled by Jessica on Vimeo

-- peer

Beautiful rig! Congrats!

Thanks Glen!

Beautiful rig! Congrats!

Yep, and it actually reminds me a bit of my old old 5d2 rig:
My Old 5D2 Camera -- manhandled by Jessica on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/6958033)

-- peer

Quite a nice set up looks like you have a few more lenses than I. Jessica looks nice too, I like a woman who knows how to handle a rig!