This has taken me a while, but I have spend the last month working on quality improvement to the CineForm Intermediate codec and how it works within Vegas 6.0c. With so many Vegas editors working with HDV, using the shipped CineForm Intermediate codec or the upgraded Connect HD, we get a lot of feedback on image quality and performance (mostly very positive.) Of course we take any negative feedback seriously and we have found areas for improvement. Vegas 6.0c has recently been upgraded to version 2.1 of the codec, which was a big improvement, but quality improvements have continued since then to the new v2.3 ships in the new Connect HD 2.0.

On the CineForm website we have various quality demonstrations, but until today they where all performed within Premiere Pro. The latest analysis was done using Vegas 6.0c, giving Vegas users a much more accurate indication of the Vegas quality experience.

Please check out http://www.cineform.com/technology/HDVQualityAnalysis051011/HDVQualityAnalysis051011.htm

Thanks

David,

Do you know if the Z1 in pal mode can shoot at the 1/50th shutter speed without being in 25CF mode...

If so then can you use your software to turn it into 24p?

Also I'm one of those Mac people I couldn't find it but I thought I read that you could make it a quicktime file instead of an avi file?

Thanks Gary

1/50th shutter for a 50Hz is standard. Yet that image would be interlaced and we don't (yet :) ) offer de-interlacing of 50i to 24p. CineForm isn't stored as Quicktime file or running on the Mac (again, yet.)

Thanks for the answer David...

I guess I wrote that wrong... I didn't know if the Z1 can shoot 25frames non CF mode in pal... or will it only shoot 25 frames in the CF mode that was really the way I should have written it...

If you mean 25 "frames" as progressive vs interlaced, CineFrame 25 is the best option. You can run the shutter at 1/25sec in 50i mode, but the resolution is either the same or lower than the CF25 mode.

Please check out http://www.cineform.com/technology/HDVQualityAnalysis051011/HDVQualityAnalysis051011.htm

Thanks

Most impressive indeed. HDLink is the most inexpensive software I have when value for money is considered.

Vegas 6.0c has recently been upgraded to version 2.1 of the codec, which was a big improvement, but quality improvements have continued since then to the new v2.3 ships in the new Connect HD 2.0.


Hi David, I have a couple of CineForm codec questions.

Can you comment on the improvements to version 2.1 included in the Vegas 6.0c update?

Can you comment on or better yet demonstrate the difference in picture quality between CineForm version 2.1 included in Vegas 6.0c and CineForm version 2.3 in Connect HD? I know there are performance and functionality gains in Connect HD, but I simply want to know about the picture quality difference between these two versions. Demo pictures would be nice.

Version 2.1 fixed an error that was many visilibily in the shadows, if you looked very hard, and only in Vegas (not in AE, VirtualDub, Premiere etc.) So 2.1 is a nice verison. However, the upgrade from 2.1 to 2.3 of the codec focused on multiple generation characteristic within Vegas itself. Vegas is an RGB tool, whereas most of the previous multi-generation work on early codecs was performed in YUV. So Version 2.3 is truely calibrated for the RGB pathways used by Vegas. If you aren't using Connect HD, the v2.3 codec alone may not be a reason to upgrade, yet if you are using CineForm Intermeidate with Vegas there as so many other quality and performance benefits to Connect HD -- you should get it -- getting v2.3 earlier then through a Vegas upgrade is simply a bonus.

I just looked but can only find version 2.1 on the Cineform site.

Connect HD 2.0 contains codec v2.3 within it. Where were you looking? The codec version number and product versioning is different, it may be a little confusing.

Well I have the latest so I'm sure it's probably the right one: The one installed with ConnectHD 2.0.2.11. Yeah, I guess I was mixing up ConnectHD program and codec version numbers.

David,
I have Cineform Aspect HD for Premiere. Will this work for Vegas 6.0c? If yes, will the quality be as good asConnect HD, or is the Connect version more optimized for Vegas?

The quality is similar, but Aspect does not have anything to offer Vegas. It's a Premiere-optimized product.

The quality is similar, but Aspect does not have anything to offer Vegas. It's a Premiere-optimized product.

So are you saying that I'd get better HDV quality and useability in Vegas if I spend the extra $$ and purchase Connect in addition to the Aspect that I already have?

I'm willing to do that, but only if it will make a difference!

Thanks - PK

You won't get better quality, but you might find it runs smoother and more efficiently. So, I'd say your editing experience will improve with the purchased plugin, yes.

So what are the advantages/disadvantage of these two? What is the cost difference?

Thank you - PK

Connect HD is WELL worth the money and much easier to use than Gearshift. If your computer is very fast, it will capture m2t and convert it directly to their avi file which edits easily in Vegas. If your computer is slower, it will capture the m2t, then in a second step, convert it. In the process, Connect will secene detect your clips. The product is a gem.

If yr PC is 3.0Ghz and below, it would be much easier to use Gearshift to generate a DV proxy for editing. For HDV, u download into yr PC as m2t format, which is difficult to edit even with the fastest PC. So, Connect HD & Gearshift each generates an intermediate file for editing. For Connect HD, it renders the cineform avi, while Gearshift has a choice to generate a DV proxy or CF. Note that fopr Gearshift, it is using the Vegas supplied CF codec while Connect HD is using an improved version.

What does Cineform have up it's sleave for Vegas version 7.0? I plan on making the upgrade later this month and have not purchased Connect HD v3.04 just yet. Not sure what to do really.

Jon

You don't have long to wait. Vegas 7 is being released today.

One thing I learned in doing a movie project: I used Magic Bullet a good amount. It was explained to me that Cineform converted files are 4:2:2 and, though it only came from the 4:2:0, Magic Bullet redoes each pixel and, therefore, the end product is better. It sure looks better. A lot of people have commented on "the look."

what do you mean magic bullet redoes each pixel.. when i add any type of magic bullet effect it re renders the pixels to 4:2:2...explain??

Mike Jones in another forum said, "Native HDV TS files are 4:2:0 colour space which means a fairly data starved image for doing lots of colour grading and such. No headroom. Dont get wrong, its not like you cant do it. You just potentially get better results doing heavy colour grading on Cineform files which are 4:2:2 colour space. Of course the transcode from 4:2:0 TS files to 4:2:2 cineform doesnt improve or change the quality of the footage but it does give extra data headroom and colour space availibility for making colour adjustments..."

In a later discussion he said that this is the reason it is better with Magic Bullet. MB is working with the Cineform file, not the m2t file. The program redoes each pixel, so it has more to work with.

sounds like a sound idea but what do the results look like. i have connect hd and think it's great, but now 7.0 vegas is out why would i use it m2t files in draft mode with transition play fine on my timeline. I guess if there was a frame shot of m2t with bullet and cineform with bullet side by side and there was a noticable difference it would still be worth it to use cineform for the 4:2:2 colorspace.. right?

Is connect HD available for Vegas 7 and does it still have the same advantages that it had for 5/6?

Yes, it works with 7. It still has the advantages. It has updated. Some people use Vegas to capture and then convert in Vegas to the Cineform codec that comes with it. Connect is still worth the $200 to me.

Even Vegas 7 doesn't do frame accurate cuts on m2t files.....ConnectHD AVI does function frame accurately in Vegas. And, I think you'll find that m2t files will still stutter a bit in Vegas, especially with a transition inserted.

Thanks for the info on the frame cuts. I have never cut m2t directly since I bought Connect shortly after my Z1 but knowing the nature of m2t I didn't see how they could cut on the frame. I assume they cut on the full information frame.

Also, since reencoding (up to about 8 times) is possible without visible loss, I make a project "master" in Cineform before adding effects. I find Cineform very reliable. Even their support is good.