Do you think a caridoid would work better? It was just a recommendation to use an omnidirectional microphone in this thread.
I would be wary of using an omnidirectional mic in such a humongous space with such a remarkably long reverb time. Omnis are nice when used in more conventional spaces with reasonable reverb times. But a space that huge, and with NO AUDIENCE to soak up some of the sound will be very challenging. You need to get a decent coverage of all the singers without letting in an undue amount of the ambient reverberation. That would be very difficult to do with omni microphones, IME. At least directional microphones will do their job to control the direct/ambient ratio.

Would you advise just picking up the Rode NT4? Do you think it would serve well as a solo mic setup if I raise it to three metres as previously discussed?
I don't think you would be disappointed with a Rode NT4. Thomann has a "B-stock" unit for sale at a reduced price, but with full factory warranty. I regularly buy "B-stock" and demo and refurbished gear to stretch my budget and I have never been "stung".

Craig,

I just read this whole thing. You are talking to some very knowledgeable people here. I am not going to make a mic recommendation your looking for, they know more than me about that.

There is one thing I feel very strongly about that has not been said enough. No matter what you do there is only one place that Zoom H4 can go. That is in your HANDS. You are using it as your mixer and your recorder. You will also be monitoring it. Having it taped to a stand someplace will not work. You need to have total control of it. This is not a set it and forget it situation. Everyone agrees monitoring is critical, what good will it do you if you can't adjust what you hear?

Kind Regards,

Steve

Thanks for your input, as always, Steve!

I can sense their knowledge very clearly with how much they know! :) I am really appreciative of their time... it's just hard knowing the right decision, when I often research projects for months.

I'll be sure to keep the H5 with me! :) I just need to make a decision in the next couple of hours, which is quite frustrating from my side, as I have many good opinions to choose from, but I'm no clearer as to what to do.

I like the sound of the Rode nt4... and using a COS 11D alongside it... that way, I'll have a stereo recording and a mono recording. It's not breaking the bank and I can consider buying better mics down the road.

Alternatively, I'm going to have to spend a similar amount renting some mics that I will likely find harder to use.

I have seen situations where rugs (or even "moving pads") are put down on the hard floor to control at least some of the NEAR reflections in a large, reverberant space like that.

Note also that if it is a perfect hemisphere, you probably want to avoid the exact CENTER. I have worked in some similar situations where sound is FOCUSED right at the center and produces an extremely distorted "soundscape". I would avoid putting the choir or the microphone within 1-2m of the center.

I would be wary of using an omnidirectional mic in such a humongous space with such a remarkably long reverb time. Omnis are nice when used in more conventional spaces with reasonable reverb times. But a space that huge, and with NO AUDIENCE to soak up some of the sound will be very challenging. You need to get a decent coverage of all the singers without letting in an undue amount of the ambient reverberation. That would be very difficult to do with omni microphones, IME. At least directional microphones will do their job to control the direct/ambient ratio.

Makes sense.

I don't think you would be disappointed with a Rode NT4. Thomann has a "B-stock" unit for sale at a reduced price, but with full factory warranty. I regularly buy "B-stock" and demo and refurbished gear to stretch my budget and I have never been "stung".

Thanks. Is Thomann UK based though? As their website ends .de? I need the mic by Tuesday. *EDIT* 3-4 working days. I can find the NT4 in stock in other UK based stores though! :)

Also, if I place the NT4 3m up, and also try it lower down in front of the conductor, do I have a good chance of capturing decent audio?

I realise that a lot of people have stated that I should stay away from the X Y configuration, as what you get, you get, but I think with my expertise (or lack of) it might be a good idea for me.

I have seen situations where rugs (or even "moving pads") are put down on the hard floor to control at least some of the NEAR reflections in a large, reverberant space like that.

Note also that if it is a perfect hemisphere, you probably want to avoid the exact CENTER. I have worked in some similar situations where sound is FOCUSED right at the center and produces an extremely distorted "soundscape". I would avoid putting the choir or the microphone within 1-2m of the center.

I'll consider doing the same, and avoiding the latter. As far as I'm aware, it's in front of the altar.... so I'm hoping it's not near the center.

Here's a proper recording of the venue, which I think has been completed by a broadcasting company:

Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral Choir - The Shepherd's Farewell - YouTube

rather than wasting money on a less than ideal asset I would rent a high end pair of cardioids and set them up in one of the standard stereo configurations. Save your money for when you can afford great microphones.

If you have a rental place nearby I agree with Jim renting is the best option, I think you are investing in audio now for the wrong reason which is for that one client that only has a limited budget, I know you want to use that gear for future assignments as well but you are trying to gather too much options in too little time which can lead to a wrong purchase. If you rent you can use high end equipment and experiment and decide over time if a actual purchase is more beneficial then just renting the equipment each time, because different jobs may require different audio set-ups when you rent you can pick whatever gets the job done.

You'd be surprised how simple a mic arrangement experienced audio engineers will use. They may just a stereo pair strung in the right spot, One I know used to record an orchestra that way in their usual venue. Reverb is all part of the cathedral sound, you should use it.

I am not familiar with Thomann except what I see on their website. It seems like it is probably a German vendor, but I don't know how fast shipping is in the EC (and the UK being just across the channel). And I don't know any vendors in the UK, sorry.

Upon closer inspection of your original photo, it appears that they have a very large "choir loft" and a large "orchestra pit" in front of the choir. And it appears that they have something "flying" from horizontally suspended cables.

When I went with a ~150 voice men's chorus to the historic Biserica Neagră ("Black Church") in Brasov, Romania, I was able to use their permanently-installed hanging microphone array. Which was a good thing since there was no other way to get a microphone anywhere near the choir loft/organ which was up in a balcony some 20m above the main floor.

https://flic.kr/p/6hwp54

https://flic.kr/p/6hAyMy

If you have a rental place nearby I agree with Jim renting is the best option, I think you are investing in audio now for the wrong reason which is for that one client that only has a limited budget, I know you want to use that gear for future assignments as well but you are trying to gather too much options in too little time which can lead to a wrong purchase. If you rent you can use high end equipment and experiment and decide over time if a actual purchase is more beneficial then just renting the equipment each time, because different jobs may require different audio set-ups when you rent you can pick whatever gets the job done.

True Noa... I just don't know if the mics I get I'll be able to use to their full potential, whereas if I buy a Rode NT4, I'll be able to use that for weddings too.

You'd be surprised how simple a mic arrangement experienced audio engineers will use. They may just a stereo pair strung in the right spot, One I know used to record an orchestra that way in their usual venue. Reverb is all part of the cathedral sound, you should use it.

I'm sure that you're right! I'll see what audio I can retrieve, and then how I can mix it together. If I get sound that is decent, I will be very pleased.


Upon closer inspection of your original photo, it appears that they have a very large "choir loft" and a large "orchestra pit" in front of the choir. And it appears that they have something "flying" from horizontally suspended cables.

When I went with a ~150 voice men's chorus to the historic Biserica Neagră ("Black Church") in Brasov, Romania, I was able to use their permanently-installed hanging microphone array. Which was a good thing since there was no other way to get a microphone anywhere near the choir loft/organ which was up in a balcony some 20m above the main floor.

https://flic.kr/p/6hAyMy

By the sounds of it, no microphones will be made available to me. I will just opt for the mic behind the conductor and in front and see which works best. I haven't had a response from the client today, so will see what they respond with. I'll definitely see if they have access to that though, but with nobody manning it, I don't know what the result will be... or how I will even work them! :)

Thanks Jim. I was just wary that I have not done stereo before.

I'll look into renting. Thanks, but how much do you need to spend to get 'great'?

Examples of cardioids that would serve you well and retain their value over time:

Sennheiser MKH8040 or MKH 40
Schoeps CMC 6 + MK4

DPA and Neumann have some options as well.

Examples of cardioids that would serve you well and retain their value over time:

Sennheiser MKH8040 or MKH 40
Schoeps CMC 6 + MK4

DPA and Neumann have some options as well.

I can get the Sennheiser MKH 8040 for £789... I could afford that.

The description for it sounds perfect for the use as well, with it being suited to less than optimal recordings.

The MKH40 is just under £1000.

If I had the MKH8040, could I position that nicely at the points discussed (high up 3m or in front of the conductor)?

+1 on renting this time. Your out of time to make an educated purchase decision. We could all debate the "which one is best" thing for another 100 posts and still not reach a consensus. At one point you were considering two Shure instrument mics. Not the best choice for this job and a very poor investment for future use.

Throwing money into a high end purchase is not the solution. They have even told you how to do it with what you have. I don't see any reason why you will not be able to pull this off to a reasonable level of quality. You have the rehearsal to get the bugs out. That means everything. And don't worry about the small size of your lavs, that is the least of considerations. And choir people are used to small capsules hanging over them anyway.

You have at least four recorders I know of. Place them strategically around the room as suggested. Make your direct recording of the choir and you will be able to come up with an acceptable mix.

Also, if you plan on using the X/Y mic on the H5 as another backup recording it can't be literally in your hands at that point, it is very sensitive to handling noise, you need it mounted on a tripod in front of you. It has a 1/4 20 lug for that. You will be able to make adjustments and not make noise that way.

Good Luck Craig!

Steve

Here's a proper recording of the venue, which I think has been completed by a broadcasting company:
They put that choir up behind the altar in a rather smaller space. That is the traditional "cathedral placement" where they have two rows of choristers facing each other. Do you think that is their intent?

Notice in the video at 3:25 what appears to be a Schoeps Colette-series microphone head mounted on the end of an extension tube.

Microphone Capsules - SCHOEPS.de (http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/categories/mic_capsules)
Colette Tubes - SCHOEPS.de (http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/categories/rc)

That is VERY CLOSE micing. I have to believe that it is a "spot mic" for a soloist rather than the general chorus pickup. OTOH, at 4:20 we hear some unusually loud page-turning noises which suggests quite close mic placement.

I have loved that Berlioz "Shepherd's Farewell" since I sang it back 42 years ago with a small choir.
http://www.rcrowley.com/scholacantorum/Jurupa%20Christmas%20-%2007%20-%20Shepherd's%20Farewell.mp3

+1 on renting this time. Your out of time to make an educated purchase decision. We could all debate the "which one is best" thing for another 100 posts and still not reach a consensus. At one point you were considering two Shure instrument mics. Not the best choice for this job and a very poor investment for future use.

Throwing money into a high end purchase is not the solution. They have even told you how to do it with what you have. I don't see any reason why you will not be able to pull this off to a reasonable level of quality. You have the rehearsal to get the bugs out. That means everything. And don't worry about the small size of your lavs, that is the least of considerations. And choir people are used to small capsules hanging over them anyway.

You have at least four recorders I know of. Place them strategically around the room as suggested. Make your direct recording of the choir and you will be able to come up with an acceptable mix.

Also, if you plan on using the X/Y mic on the H5 as another backup recording it can't be literally in your hands at that point, it is very sensitive to handling noise, you need it mounted on a tripod in front of you. It has a 1/4 20 lug for that. You will be able to make adjustments and not make noise that way.

Good Luck Craig!

Steve

Hmmm OK! I was advised on the Sennheiser 8040 and 40-P48 though, and they look like good investments?

Cheers Steve!

They put that choir up behind the altar in a rather smaller space. That is the traditional "cathedral placement" where they have two rows of choristers facing each other. Do you think that is their intent?

Thankfully not. Their intent is to place themselves in a semi-circle, which I believe will be with two rows of 8. It's not going to be like the film itself, but it is a good example of what the room is like and how the audio will sound.

Notice in the video at 3:25 what appears to be a Schoeps Colette-series microphone head mounted on the end of an extension tube.

Microphone Capsules - SCHOEPS.de (http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/categories/mic_capsules)
Colette Tubes - SCHOEPS.de (http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/categories/rc)

That is VERY CLOSE micing. I have to believe that it is a "spot mic" for a soloist rather than the general chorus pickup. OTOH, at 4:20 we hear some unusually loud page-turning noises which suggests quite close mic placement.

I have loved that Berlioz "Shepherd's Farewell" since I sang it back 42 years ago with a small choir.
http://www.rcrowley.com/scholacantorum/Jurupa%20Christmas%20-%2007%20-%20Shepherd's%20Farewell.mp3

Man, that's some impressive investigatory work, Richard! Thanks! I don't believe that I will be expected to unravel such a recording, nor would I expect the audio to be anywhere near this level as is obvious at this moment.

Thanks for all your help, though!

I guess what it's come down to are the following options:

1. Keep my gear, use 11Ds on the position described on the light stand.

2. Buy a Rode NT4, use an 11D as a back up.

3. Buy a Sennheiser MKH 8040 and use the 11D as a back up.

4. Try to find a way to converse with a rental company tomorrow, even though I am working and won't find an easy way to access a phone. Then hope that I can get a mic delivered that is optimal for the recording at hand. I dislike this option, as I'd like to have a cordioid mic in my arsenal.

What would everyone do in my position?

Those cardioids are usually used in pairs so you would buy 2 of the MKH 8040s. But before I spent that much money I would rent either a pair of those or a pair of MKH40s which are going to have a similar sound. Then I would buy only if I knew I was going to have plenty of opportunities to put them to work. I'm looking at it more from a business perspective and try to be conservative with capital.

That's a no! Wouldn't one work just as well in the proposed way???

I realise that renting would be right from a business perspective, but I'm struggling to rent as I cannot contact a company tomorrow until late afternoon, and by then, it may be too late.

Maybe the NT4 and 11D is the way to go!

"I want a cardiod mic in my kit"

Then I would save a thousand dollars and buy two Shure SM57s for $99.00 each

I know you really like the idea of spending for top shelf mics. But if you know the history of the SM57 & SM58 you would realize they are not really $99.00 mics. Everyone needs them in there kit. As I said before, you could hand one to Mick Jagger or Bono and they would not scoff at it. Virtually every big name in rock n roll has used a SM58. And you can find them at any local music store.

Steve

"I want a cardiod mic in my kit"

Then I would save a thousand dollars and buy two Shure SM57s for $99.00 each

I know you really like the idea of spending for top shelf mics. But if you know the history of the SM57 & SM58 you would realize they are not really $99.00 mics. Everyone needs them in there kit. As I said before, you could hand one to Mick Jagger or Bono and they would not scoff at it. Virtually every big name in rock n roll has used a SM58. And you can find them at any local music store.

Steve


What about getting three of them, using a H6 to monitor all three in a left right and centre configuration?

Sounds like a plan! If this is better than the NT4 solution! :-)

Craig,

It might be worth trying but I don't want to send there. Those mics are work horses but far from perfect for this application. With a H6 you would be asking too much from the consumer pre amps. To get your sensitivity up high enough you would be introducing noise. They are vocal mics but designed to handle high SPL levels. I would want some other guys to chime in like Richard and Rick to see if they are a viable option at your distance? At some point you are going to need to invest in a high quality mixer with pre amps that can drive sensitivity up without noise. A $1,200.00 mic going into a consumer pre amp will still be noisy and not save you. This is about signal flow, not just mics.

You have the big guns of this audio forum helping you out here if they are still on this. Far better advice than I can give.

Steve

Craig,

Church "audio engineers" are often a member of the congregation that volunteer or get nominal pay for his services. My guess is he is paid something at that place and they are not even willing to contribute that. But....that is not your local corner church. Somewhere in that building is an equipment room filled with everything you need. Did you ask your contact if she will make their resources available to you? Behind door number one sits a gold mine....

Steve

I would save a thousand dollars and buy two Shure SM57s for $99.00 eachSteve

Yes, I would use them to record Jagger or Bono. But I would never use them to record a choir in this situation.

I once got a VERY last-minute call to record a piano and string quintet. I had a portable recorder and phones in the car, but did not have time to drive back to get good mics. I recorded the performance with a pair of SM57s which I had in the car (left over from a PA gig). It was one of the worst recordings I ever made .. and that includes some pretty bad ones I made when I was still in high school. IMHO 57s are definitely not the right mic for this job.)

I can hardly think of a worse microphone to use for that kind of recording than a Shure SM57/58. If you are a head-banging, heavy-metal rocker then the SM mics are the standard of the industry. But for this kind of distant, acoustic genre, nobody would use one of those old clunkers.

Listen to them, except the old clunker part, they still have a place in every general purpose kit, even today IMHO. But very true not for this gig ;-)

Craig, I don't think anyone will dispute this (but hey, you never know) When it comes to audio, I think in terms of signal flow. Again (we went here before) I think you are trying to compensate for a difficult situation by believing throwing a lot of money into a quality mic will fix a problem. Microphones come in so many types so you can find one with the characteristics to suite the job. Characteristics is more important than the price tag, within reason.

Basic signal flow in this case goes like this: Mic (analog) generates signal, a very low level electrical signal, cable, the path of the signal, H5 or H6, signal processing and recording device, serves as mixer/recorder in this case, mixer part is pre amp, gain/volume processing stage, then codec, A/D processing, analog to digital file processing. So even in your very simple mic to SD card process several things happen to the signal.

A signal processed by a cheap pre amp will be a poor quality signal even if it comes from a very expensive mic of the wrong type. Mics do not necessarily go up in sensitivity with price. Sensitivity is a character of type, not price.You need the right mic for this job. You have asked that question repeatedly. My vote would be the Rode NT4. But again, I am a hack compared to the other guys here providing advice!

Kind Regards,

Steve

Any other votes for an NT4?

Thanks everyone.

Five pages of responses all pretty well saying the same thing.

Recording in a cathedral for something that can be released as a professional sounding CD is not a beginners task. In fact, the recording equipment is not that much of an issue, but where is the monitoring location? Mic placement is EVERYTHING! Most people who do this kind of thing for recording or broadcast will find a vestry, or other space where they can set up speakers, and the use radios to guide the person near the choir to move the mics in/out, up/down, toe in or out. You can guarantee the best place is the worst place for video. For broadcast, the common method, for programmes like BBC songs of praise is to mime (sorry, lip-sync). If the performance needs recording in site, then it's done in the usual ugly style, then mics are removed and the video shot to playback. Venues that have live broadcasting often have flying points installed so you can fly the cluster on 3mm aircraft cable, opening up the floor, but this is sophisticated stuff.

Reverb time and reflections can completely mess up a recording, so the recordists need decent time with the choir to find the right locations for them and the mics. You cannot guess this. It's crazy. In fact, a few years ago I was involved in a UK exam where college kids needed to record poppy studio stuff AND natural recording techniques. They managed studio stuff well, and the church and cathedral stuff was dire! Usually a complete mess, because multiple arrival times and paths wreck clarity when you get it wrong.


You need monitoring and somebody skilled to get it set the recording kit set up, and time- lots of it.

If I were doing this I'd want three evenings with everyone, a decent and understanding choir master, and good management, because just getting a choir to not make any noise for six seconds after the last note is amazingly difficult, wrecking perfect takes. If visuals are critical they MUST be lip-synced. You cannot listen critically to the music, ready to stop it if you are also watching a screen.

My advice is that you are being unrealistic for a first attempt at audio of this nature. It's very complex stuff if you want clarity. Easy to get mud!

I presume the budget for the whole video is the £500 you mentioned and as it is a promo I would be keeping it simple.

OK you can record the choir and the NT4 would be fine but you will need to place it about 8 feet in front of the choir and it will be in shot but that may be fine for a promo. Personally I would just rig my Sony ECM- MS-957 mic and record it to my minidisc / marantz recorder or feed it to two tracks of my camera.

Another alternative is to just buy one of those small Zoom or Tascam recorders with built in mic's and place it on a mic stand central and 8 feet from the choir. You have £500 here so we are not talking about a Radio 3 production so they get what they are given. You will also need to sync up the stereo audio with your camera mic scratch track but this way at least you can just set the recorder running and concentrate on the visuals. Record a rehearsal and listen to what is the best place to have the mic/recorder. You will also need to set the levels but this should be possible in rehearsal too and you will need to have the low cut filter on if it has one or add one in the edit to stop external traffic rumble.

You will need to monitor what you are recording and as Paul has said the critical element is actually getting a useable audio track that reflects the quality of their performance. That also includes the end as everyone needs to be quiet as the reverb tails off but hey this is a promo so will the end actually feature?

We did Opera Singer Jessie Norman at Durham Cathedral many years ago for Highway and as the reverb was tailing off someone came in through the door and it slammed shut, she refused to do another take so we had to stitch some reverb on in post.

One other way round this is to just record the choir visually with a scratch audio track and then when the final CD is produced cut the pictures to the sound track that is on the CD.

We used to do this all the time at Tyne Tees on The Tube and we did a Tina Turner video this way as she was in the studio recording the theme to Mad Max Thunderdome months before the film or CD was released so all we did was then manually piece together the visuals to match the final music track.

I would guess the choir will generally sing the pieces at roughly the same speed but you will bve amazed how clever editing can cover a multitude of lip syncing and besides there are 16 of them so not all of them will be in perfect lip sync.

Besides you may be able to get a better promo by being arty with the pictures and on most promo's lip sync is not the primary critical visual element as some artists just want to look good for their public.

The 57 & 58 are great mics for sure (and pretty much indestructible), and countless hit records were recorded with a '57 on snare and/or guitar amp. Everyone should have a few.
That said, it would NOT be my first choice for a choir either. If I were on a low budget. I'd probably use a decent portable recorder with internal mics. The Sony PCM D50 comes to mind. The onboard mics are also per-positioned to avoid phase issues.

Thanks everyone. Amazingly, your advice has worked - the client has hired an audio engineer. I explained that I had been discussing this with a multitude of audio engineers and explained that you felt this would be a step too far. I said my audio will likely be OK, but she would be much better served by an audio engineer.

I'm really pleased in a way, but also quite embarrassed to have asked you a thousand questions all weekend. I am really thankful to everyone for your advice and I have learnt a lot from this experience. My knowledge of microphones and pick up patterns has vastly improved and this is definitely an area that I find to be most interesting. I can't thank everyone enough for your time, and would like to apologise if you now see your posts as a waste of time - it hasn't been at all (for me). I think I have learned a lot.

That said, one final question: Will I be able to sync the audio with Plural Eyes or should I buy a clapboard?

Thanks everyone!!!

Your doing a multi cam shoot and recording external audio without jamming time code. I would not do it without my slate. Don't rely on software alone and the slate marks will help plural eyes and YOU to check for sync.

Good luck Craig, the guys here are very generous with sharing their knowledge. I am sure no one feels rejected, thats not what this is about. I am glad your going to get the help you need to make this a positive learning experience.

Steve

Buy a clapperboard app for your phone or i-pad if you have one.

Good to hear they took advice and the audio will be sorted by someone else.

Your doing a multi cam shoot and recording external audio without jamming time code. I would not do it without my slate. Don't rely on software alone and the slate marks will help plural eyes and YOU to check for sync.

Good luck Craig, the guys here are very generous with sharing their knowledge. I am sure no one feels rejected, thats not what this is about. I am glad your going to get the help you need to make this a positive learning experience.

Steve

Thanks Steve. I've never used a slate before, but I am sure it's as simple as it sounds when I've watched videos about it on YouTube.

My understanding is that you position the slate in front of your main camera, with all of the details of in this shoot, the song you are recording and the camera that you're looking at. Then when you slap the clapper down, the other two-three cameras for this shoot will know that the clapper happened at that moment.

As I'll be shooting DSLR, I'll likely stop the recordings after each song. That way, each song has its own file.

Sound like the right setup?

Thanks Steve. I am very excited to shoot in the cathedral, and if the audio engineer can work wonders and make a good-sounding recording, then I'll be doing everything I can to get some great shots.

Following the discussions here, my plans for cameras are as follows:

a) GoPro with clamp (just bought) for the stand in front of the conductor
b) A camera close to front and centre (likely the GH4), shooting 4K for pans and punch ins in post.
c) A GH3 on a slider on the floor, facing up towards the choir and exposing the ceiling with a wide.
d) An AX100 in 4K from a side angle, left as a static for the same reasons as the GH4.

Using 2 4K streams, and getting as many interesting shots as I can with my slider could create an interesting visual.

Then I'm also hoping to get some great venue shots, both of the interior and exterior, where I may be able to fade away to different cutaway shots. Whatever I can basically to make this a great film.

The two songs are as follows:

If ye love me - Tallis (2 mins 5 seconds)
Christus factus est - Bruckner (6 mins 7 seconds)

I'll be looking up the meaning behind these songs, so that I can hopefully pair some other visuals to the songs themselves to tell the story (presuming there is one) within the cathedral itself.

I'll be sure to post the video once it's finished.

Buy a clapperboard app for your phone or i-pad if you have one.

Good to hear they took advice and the audio will be sorted by someone else.

Thanks Gary, do you find these work as quickly as a plastic clapperboard?

Thanks again for all of the advice...

Just stand in a spot where all camera's are about the same distance from you, or ask someone to do it for you while you monitor your camera's and ask them to clap their hands loud before they start to play and right after they stop, I don't see why you should buy a clapperboard really because it's only 2 songs, the clapping sound will provide you with a peak in the audio recording if all else is quite at that moment and just use that to sync up all audio, even manually that should not take more then 5 minutes for all camera's and soundsources. It's important to clap after the performance as well to see if there are any speed differences between the audio recording and the recording from your camera.

I sync a lot of audio without P-eyes. I have both I-pad clappers and my old fashioned wooden slate you can fill in with a marker. And of course the hand clap.

I always go back to the wooden slate. Clapped twice. You can't beat those two thin marks on your track. I-pads are not loud enough. I put the name of the shoot on it and blow off all of the details.

I don't clap it myself. I look for someone on set with a gregarious personality and ask them to help me with it. Some people get a big kick out of it because it makes them feel "hollywood".

Steve

Thanks for the tips, Noa and Steve! Appreciate it! :)

We'll see how this goes! I'll be sure to post the video once it's done!! I'll be waiting for the mix first... I might even ask the audio engineer if he'd be interested in editing the audio with me... I doubt it mind, but it would be a great learning experience.

Craig

You definitely did the right thing, it's so easy to mess up. Not sure if you have one, but a go pro, mounted on a sound boom can get you some amazing shots by getting a camera very high up, which always looks good in these buildings. Taping it vertically to a mic stand or lighting stand can give you some lovely stuff as filler/beauty shots.

One thing comes to mind, in that sometimes the choir master/mistress of amateur groups can be very demanding, so expect quite a few takes till they are happy. Identifying the takes with your clapper will be very handy. I actually doubt you'll have much trouble with sync, as small slips aren't noticed, as the multiple people all singing slightly different mean it's nowhere near as bad as a soloist.

I'd also make friends with the person in charge, because some areas will be out of bounds, so finding out their important rules is very important. Oddly, I've had much more leeway in Catholic churches and cathedrals - I asked one priest if it would be ok to push a flightcase across one open space that had floor 'tombs' - he smiled and said they were all dead, so wouldn't mind! In a CofE church I was banned from going behind one screen, where I hoped to set up some kit unseen. Never assume in these places, as it can easily offend.

Subbing the audio out was probably the best move you could make!

Don't forget the cell phone interrogation before you start!

Thanks everyone. Amazingly, your advice has worked - the client has hired an audio engineer.

Whew! Lucky you, that takes a lot off your plate, and lets you concentrate on your core competency.

That said, if you want to record music this little adventure got you started climbing some of those learning curves. Just knowing where to start is often half the battle.

Whether or not you decide to continue with the music end, good luck with your shoot. Let us know what you, and your audio person, think of the acoustics in that massive round building. And if you can, post a link to the finished video. I'd love to hear/see it.

I had to resolve a whole concert with no sync and no guide track when the camera operator didn't notice that the audio feed had become disconnected. I synced this video to the separate master audio recording by using the "L" in "Jerusalem" at 0:59 and the tongue of one of the altos.

https://vimeo.com/album/2482420/video/71927519

You definitely did the right thing, it's so easy to mess up. Not sure if you have one, but a go pro, mounted on a sound boom can get you some amazing shots by getting a camera very high up, which always looks good in these buildings. Taping it vertically to a mic stand or lighting stand can give you some lovely stuff as filler/beauty shots.

One thing comes to mind, in that sometimes the choir master/mistress of amateur groups can be very demanding, so expect quite a few takes till they are happy. Identifying the takes with your clapper will be very handy. I actually doubt you'll have much trouble with sync, as small slips aren't noticed, as the multiple people all singing slightly different mean it's nowhere near as bad as a soloist.

I'd also make friends with the person in charge, because some areas will be out of bounds, so finding out their important rules is very important. Oddly, I've had much more leeway in Catholic churches and cathedrals - I asked one priest if it would be ok to push a flightcase across one open space that had floor 'tombs' - he smiled and said they were all dead, so wouldn't mind! In a CofE church I was banned from going behind one screen, where I hoped to set up some kit unseen. Never assume in these places, as it can easily offend.

Subbing the audio out was probably the best move you could make!

Don't forget the cell phone interrogation before you start!

Thanks Paul. I realised quite early in this thread that I was way out of my depth, which is slightly frustrating and exciting at the same time, as I really hoped that I'd be able to learn how to capture decent sound in a cathedral within a week's worth of research and a good piece of equipment. Evidently not though, but I will look to improve vastly in this area in the future.

I'm going to put my GoPro on the lighting stand. I'd love another GoPro to put on a boom pole, but I think I'll have to let that one slide for this shoot. I'm really pleased that I don't have to invest a tonne of money to be honest too, as I never like money to restrict what is possible with an event recording. To be a pro is to have the right equipment for the job, but it just so happens that on this shoot, I had no idea what the right equipment was! :)

Thanks Paul, great tip! I have bought a slate version of a clapboard. I figure it's worth the extra £30 if Steve uses his all the time, and the cheaper boards aren't as robust to take the clap (or at least from very brief research). Would anyone advise writing on each board for each different take or not?

Definitely. I'll be sure that I am being respectful!

Hahaha does cell phone interrogation mean to tell everyone to turn off their phones?!

I'm really pleased that the audio is being subbed out, and excited that I can concentrate on the video now.

Whew! Lucky you, that takes a lot off your plate, and lets you concentrate on your core competency.

That said, if you want to record music this little adventure got you started climbing some of those learning curves. Just knowing where to start is often half the battle.

Whether or not you decide to continue with the music end, good luck with your shoot. Let us know what you, and your audio person, think of the acoustics in that massive round building. And if you can, post a link to the finished video. I'd love to hear/see it.

Definitely, lucky me!

Thanks, Bruce. Really helpful. I am really pleased that everyone here was able to help me, and you have been endlessly helpful.

I'll definitely continue to pursue the music end... but I guess it largely depends on the opportunities that lay ahead for me...

I'll definitely be sure to post when I return from the shoot on Thursday, and hopefully I'll have an ETA on the arrival of the audio. From there, I'll try to get the video finished for everyone's perusal here. I've been given permission to use it to promote my own services too, where I'll give credit to the choir, conductor and audio engineer.

I can't wait to see the finished film too! Thanks a lot for your help again... I can't thank you and everyone else enough!

I had to resolve a whole concert with no sync and no guide track when the camera operator didn't notice that the audio feed had become disconnected. I synced this video to the separate master audio recording by using the "L" in "Jerusalem" at 0:59 and the tongue of one of the altos.

https://vimeo.com/album/2482420/video/71927519

Cannot tell a thing! Great job!

Hi Craig - congratulations on getting them to find someone.

Anyhow, just want to wish you the best of luck with this and please please please don't give up on audio - I think it's actually more fun than the video part. Good gear is quite expensive BUT you can use it for decades unlike the cameras.

Please post a link to the result if you can - by now I think we'd all like to actually see/hear the result.

(By the way re the idea of a higher fixed camera angle I was thinking of mounting it on a tall tripod or even on a ladder (or a tall light stand.) Since it will be locked off you don't have to stand behind it except to set it up.)

Best

I have been following Craig's work in the wedding/event forum. He has already displayed much talent for artistic video acquisition. He knows how to shoot quite well. Far beyond his honest request for audio support going into this difficult record. Now that he has proper audio support I am sure his finished film will please the client and may surprise many of you. It is always refreshing when a rookie asks legitimate questions and is responsive to the support he gets in a thoughtful way. I don't think he is here to cry help once, not check back in, and go away, like so many others do. He is genuinely trying to learn from the inquiries he makes.

Kind Regards,

Steve

+1 on everything you said - so many people start a thread and then vanish into thin air.

For choirs, or for me more commonly, the ensemble in theatre stuff, you need to reinforce the basic stuff. Phones, most importantly, but also simple stuff like ignoring the cameras. Many of my subjects are performers and they've been trained to spot a camera lens at 50m and go into pose mode. Moving cameras seem to trigger this. They spot the movement, and follow it with their eyes. Choirs and other non-performer groups find the moving cameras interesting/scary/invasive.

Gary mentioned the endings, and this needs explaining to them for both sound and picture. What do you need them to do when they finish? Hold still or relax, or lower heads or .... What? Sound just wants silence. Turning into a sudden rabble at the end by looking around, shuffling, dropping shoulders, holding up or lowering down their sheets, if they have them to read from. It could simply be stay still and keep looking at the choirmaster. They just need to remain 'a choir'. Could be good fun!

Hi Craig - congratulations on getting them to find someone.

Anyhow, just want to wish you the best of luck with this and please please please don't give up on audio - I think it's actually more fun than the video part. Good gear is quite expensive BUT you can use it for decades unlike the cameras.

Please post a link to the result if you can - by now I think we'd all like to actually see/hear the result.

(By the way re the idea of a higher fixed camera angle I was thinking of mounting it on a tall tripod or even on a ladder (or a tall light stand.) Since it will be locked off you don't have to stand behind it except to set it up.)

Best

Thanks Jim! Yeah, I quickly realised that audio equipment is a worthy investment, which is why the only lav mics I've owned are 11Ds and the only shotgun I've owned is a 416p. From my research, they seemed like the best buys for what they do, though I'm sure there are more high end equivalents that I am unaware of. That said, I can only invest what it is worth to me as a business that's directly aimed at weddings. However, if I can begin to understand more about audio, then I'll be able to venture into some audio gigs with a bit of luck. I feel like a kid again, as I would play 'soccer', rugby, cricket, and take part in swimming and athletics... I was never able to really focus on one sport, because I loved them all. In later life, it's become similar with photography, videography and maybe eventually, the study of sound engineering. I'm sure it's hard to become an expert in all, and video will always remain top of the list (from what I can tell), but it's a great privilege to be in a position to enter a field that requires such a heavy investment. I'm blessed to have had the opportunity to do these things, and to have been able to stay at home whilst I built up my equipment.

Hahaha by now, you'd probably want my small earnings, you've certainly put the time in to help me, which I'm hugely grateful for! :)

Thanks Jim! My current camera ideas include the possibility of a high stand... does it prove to be a better shot than using a lower angle, which exposes the ceiling?

I have been following Craig's work in the wedding/event forum. He has already displayed much talent for artistic video acquisition. He knows how to shoot quite well. Far beyond his honest request for audio support going into this difficult record. Now that he has proper audio support I am sure his finished film will please the client and may surprise many of you. It is always refreshing when a rookie asks legitimate questions and is responsive to the support he gets in a thoughtful way. I don't think he is here to cry help once, not check back in, and go away, like so many others do. He is genuinely trying to learn from the inquiries he makes.

Kind Regards,

Steve

Thanks Steve! Appreciate comments like these... they're amazing when they come from experienced professionals. I know that I'm a newbie coming in and trying to take on everything, and soak up everything, and therefore, I'm also mightily aware of the gaps in the knowledge that I will have in places, even if I've managed to pull off some decent work in the process.

Today, my friend who I mentioned earlier in the thread, has offered to take me to meet an audio engineer next week to learn some of the basics. Really kind of him. I'm hoping that it comes to fruition, and then I can continue to learn as much as possible.

As for the video, it'll certainly be posted in all its glory or shame or wherever it falls in between.

I'm sure that I'll learn a lot from the experience, and I'll learn new things to try for next time, should I get another opportunity. Ultimately, it's a really exciting project and I'm really thankful to everyone here for giving me some tips and tricks to help me along the way! The clamp arrived for my GoPro today, and my clapper will arrive tomorrow. I'll be ready.

In the meantime, I'll post on Thursday evening to let you know how things have gone! :) Thanks again!

+1 on everything you said - so many people start a thread and then vanish into thin air.

Thanks Jim!

For choirs, or for me more commonly, the ensemble in theatre stuff, you need to reinforce the basic stuff. Phones, most importantly, but also simple stuff like ignoring the cameras. Many of my subjects are performers and they've been trained to spot a camera lens at 50m and go into pose mode. Moving cameras seem to trigger this. They spot the movement, and follow it with their eyes. Choirs and other non-performer groups find the moving cameras interesting/scary/invasive.

Gary mentioned the endings, and this needs explaining to them for both sound and picture. What do you need them to do when they finish? Hold still or relax, or lower heads or .... What? Sound just wants silence. Turning into a sudden rabble at the end by looking around, shuffling, dropping shoulders, holding up or lowering down their sheets, if they have them to read from. It could simply be stay still and keep looking at the choirmaster. They just need to remain 'a choir'. Could be good fun!

Thanks for these tips, Paul. Invaluable. I'll be sure to mention these things today, and on the day of the shoot (Thursday).

I feel ready. I just need to get in and do my best!

Thanks everyone!!!

Hi Craig

Part of the reasoning for higher viewpoint is that if the mic stand is between the camera and the conductor, the higher the camera the less obtrusive the mics will be - they won't loom as large as if the camera were looking up at them so to speak - and if everything works out the mic in the shot might even be lower than the (apparent) head of the conductor

But maybe most important is that if the singers have music folders a low camera angle will probably make it hard to see their faces, or make the front folks completely block the rear folks. And even if they don't have folders, looking up peoples' noses is not the greatest idea:<))

Generally if you watch televised concerts, the cameras are looking down onto the orchestra - makes it much easier to see the folks on the back benches so to speak. The "Royal Box" in an opera house is usually above the stage so the "king" can look down on the performers and if it's good enough for royalty it's good enough for us, right? (Just sort of teasing - sorry!) The main point is that audiences are used to a higher viewpoint for televised events.

And if you have a couple of "floor" cams it gives you a different viewpoint to play off against the higher camera.

Just my opinion of course. I only do concert band and orchestral stuff with the occasional quintet or soloist tossed in and for a soloist or group of two or three I'd tend to be more "lens to eye" I guess. Maybe standing height camera and sitting height performer.

Thanks Jim! Yeah, I quickly realised that audio equipment is a worthy investment, which is why the only lav mics I've owned are 11Ds and the only shotgun I've owned is a 416p...

Great choices!

I know it's water under the bridge, but you might reconsider having wanted to avoid renting. I hate burning money with rentals too, but this job seemed like the perfect candidate: you want great equipment, but don't envision adding "recording in a cathedral" to your line card. It's these one-off jobs where renting really makes sense.

An alternate approach is buying and later selling on the used market. If you have the capital, you can essentially rent for the price of shipping and might even make a little profit, if you buy low & sell high. But this is riskier as you can't always rely on the right equipment at the right price at the right time.

On the third hand, you might legitimately want to add a pair of cardioid mics to your kit for x-y recording. This can be especially useful for recording ambient sound to put under b-roll or for Foley recording. Personally, I'm impressed with the Rode NT1-A for this purpose...

People mentioned the Shure 57/58 earlier as a classic mic, but also agreed that it's not right for this job. These mics are really built for high SPLs and don't deliver extended highs or lows. They're perfect for aiming at a Marshall stack or being held up to one's teeth, but as dynamic mics, they don't deliver a strong, clean signal for faint audio.

The NT1-A, on the other hand, delivers extremely low self-noise and a reasonably hot signal for not a ton of cash. So why buy a more expensive mic? For better high-SPL handling and a sweeter EQ. It just doesn't have that boutique sound. But if you're indoors and want to record somebody rolling dice, it gives you a cardioid pattern and a clean signal. One generally EQ's the snot out of stuff like this anyway, so boutique doesn't really matter. Want the signal to pan naturally? Record it with a stereo pair, rather than panning with a knob.

Back to the cathedral, a pair of NT1-As would be big, bulky and silver. They won't give you a boutique sound right out of the box. But they'd give a credible result, given good placement. (Though as mentioned, good placement is the most critical element and rarely comes from luck alone.) Which brings us full circle to renting or the used market. A pair of cardioids can be a useful tools in an audio kit, but owning a pair of boutique cardioids could be difficult to justify, unless they fit a business plan.

There are other high-value large diaphragm condenser mics out there. The NT1-A is nice because its simple design leads to low noise and low cost. Be aware that more complexity with multiple diaphragms and multiple patterns increases self noise, so a higher price doesn't always mean higher quality. Then again, more money can get you a better response and cleaner headroom too.

All in all, I'm glad to learn that they're hiring an audio person. Excellent! And this gives you some time to reflect on what else you might want in your equipment case and when renting (or using the used market as a de facto rental source) might make sense. As they say, the only thing a director needs to own is a telephone. Everything else can be rented. :)

Jon, +1 on the Rode NT1A. I love mine! I kept it in the edit bay for the first couple of years as a dedicated large diaphragm VO mic. What a mistake, as I learned how to take advantage of its sensitivity it now goes on set with me all the time for many different uses. It is definitely one of my go to mics when the situation is right. And Rode guarantees their mics for ten years and stands behind it. I have had it 8 years and Rode just put a new diaphragm in it free of charge.

Steve

When I bought my NT1A, I figured that it was a temporary thing. I needed a studio vocal mic and it fit my budget. I'd eventually need to upgrade... except I didn't. It's clean signal makes it a keeper. And I don't have a good enough recording space and paying singers to justify a high dollar upgrade.

As it turns out, I'm probably more "temporary" than my mic. :)

Living in a part of the country without decent roads was always my excuse for not renting, and in my forty year career, avoided it in the main, WASTING huge amounts of money. I've lost count of the kit I bought for one off projects that I'm now storing and sits around unused. I could hire it out but am reluctant. My accountant says I'm mad. Audio and video gear just sitting around, some of it now ancient. I thought I had a betacam sitting around somewhere, and found two! I remember buying it second hand for a single project, then putting it on a shelf in the store. I used a portable production unit for some shows in 2005 and that hasn't been touched since then, a bargain Vinten camera crane it's huge and mega heavy. I do not want to sell it, because one day a project will appear that I can use it for. I am stupid. This need to buy rather than hire has cost me dearly over the years , but I still do it. I'm looking at a flight case with two very weird LED fixtures I bought for a project in April. They're useless for general use, and I have no idea why I didn't just hire some in.

I think it's just a cultural thing, the need to collect interesting kit. Hire is sensible, and cost effective, but just not 'yours'. Totally daft!

Paul, I totally understand your thinking. There's always that moment after finishing a shoot with a rental where you realize that you need to return the thing on Monday morning. My head, the corners of my mouth and my shoulders all drop a couple of inches when that thought hits me.

I understand gear lust too as I've owned a Lotus Turbo Esprit for 25 years. I don't drive it all that often, but it's "mine". (Based on your location, you could more easily hire a vintage Lotus than a Schoeps.)

And I totally relate to the feeling of wasting money on a rental. That's money that goes for gear that you don't get to call "yours".

But if the logistics aren't bad and there's a special one-off opportunity that deserves top kit, renting can make it possible. I find it oddly liberating, but only after I really give myself permission to burn that cash.

ha! Based on my location, I could pop in to Lotus - only about 30 miles away!

Based on this thread, I had a good hunt around the store today, and found another camera - A Sony with attached Hi-8 back end, a beta sp portable, a DAT recorder, a set of 3 redheads and a green screen kit! I'd not missed them at all - crazy!

Hi Craig

Part of the reasoning for higher viewpoint is that if the mic stand is between the camera and the conductor, the higher the camera the less obtrusive the mics will be - they won't loom as large as if the camera were looking up at them so to speak - and if everything works out the mic in the shot might even be lower than the (apparent) head of the conductor

But maybe most important is that if the singers have music folders a low camera angle will probably make it hard to see their faces, or make the front folks completely block the rear folks. And even if they don't have folders, looking up peoples' noses is not the greatest idea:<))

Generally if you watch televised concerts, the cameras are looking down onto the orchestra - makes it much easier to see the folks on the back benches so to speak. The "Royal Box" in an opera house is usually above the stage so the "king" can look down on the performers and if it's good enough for royalty it's good enough for us, right? (Just sort of teasing - sorry!) The main point is that audiences are used to a higher viewpoint for televised events.

And if you have a couple of "floor" cams it gives you a different viewpoint to play off against the higher camera.

Great tip, Jim. I'll definitely have at least one high angle - probably two - and a low angle (on a slider - I don't care if they can see up someone's nose - I want to show off that ceiling! :) Then I'll have the GoPro on the stand. The two angles from above/ can be in 4K. The low angle can be standard 1080p and be moved to keep the interest of the viewer. If I decide to go against a low angle, I'll position it at head height on a tripod with the slider and create some interest there... but to be honest, I want to find some great foreground details and try to make the whole venue more extravagent.

Just my opinion of course. I only do concert band and orchestral stuff with the occasional quintet or soloist tossed in and for a soloist or group of two or three I'd tend to be more "lens to eye" I guess. Maybe standing height camera and sitting height performer.

I'll consider all of these things tomorrow... thanks for taking me through your thought process... I will do the best I can, and will report what happens tomorrow evening!

Great choices!

I know it's water under the bridge, but you might reconsider having wanted to avoid renting. I hate burning money with rentals too, but this job seemed like the perfect candidate: you want great equipment, but don't envision adding "recording in a cathedral" to your line card. It's these one-off jobs where renting really makes sense.

An alternate approach is buying and later selling on the used market. If you have the capital, you can essentially rent for the price of shipping and might even make a little profit, if you buy low & sell high. But this is riskier as you can't always rely on the right equipment at the right price at the right time.

On the third hand, you might legitimately want to add a pair of cardioid mics to your kit for x-y recording. This can be especially useful for recording ambient sound to put under b-roll or for Foley recording. Personally, I'm impressed with the Rode NT1-A for this purpose...

People mentioned the Shure 57/58 earlier as a classic mic, but also agreed that it's not right for this job. These mics are really built for high SPLs and don't deliver extended highs or lows. They're perfect for aiming at a Marshall stack or being held up to one's teeth, but as dynamic mics, they don't deliver a strong, clean signal for faint audio.

The NT1-A, on the other hand, delivers extremely low self-noise and a reasonably hot signal for not a ton of cash. So why buy a more expensive mic? For better high-SPL handling and a sweeter EQ. It just doesn't have that boutique sound. But if you're indoors and want to record somebody rolling dice, it gives you a cardioid pattern and a clean signal. One generally EQ's the snot out of stuff like this anyway, so boutique doesn't really matter. Want the signal to pan naturally? Record it with a stereo pair, rather than panning with a knob.

Back to the cathedral, a pair of NT1-As would be big, bulky and silver. They won't give you a boutique sound right out of the box. But they'd give a credible result, given good placement. (Though as mentioned, good placement is the most critical element and rarely comes from luck alone.) Which brings us full circle to renting or the used market. A pair of cardioids can be a useful tools in an audio kit, but owning a pair of boutique cardioids could be difficult to justify, unless they fit a business plan.

There are other high-value large diaphragm condenser mics out there. The NT1-A is nice because its simple design leads to low noise and low cost. Be aware that more complexity with multiple diaphragms and multiple patterns increases self noise, so a higher price doesn't always mean higher quality. Then again, more money can get you a better response and cleaner headroom too.

All in all, I'm glad to learn that they're hiring an audio person. Excellent! And this gives you some time to reflect on what else you might want in your equipment case and when renting (or using the used market as a de facto rental source) might make sense. As they say, the only thing a director needs to own is a telephone. Everything else can be rented. :)

So how does one learn where the best position is within a given location? Is it purely down to testing different areas whilst monitoring the 'phones? Or is there a way to calculate it given the structure of a building?

I love the last two sentences of your post! Definitely resonates with me. Your whole post is incredibly informative, so I'm going to wait until a later date to read it all whilst Googling the terms and learning each term as well as I can.

In the meantime, I must continue to work and prepare for the shoot tomorrow. I'm really excited about it, but I want to do the best job that I can at the same time.

Thank you again to everyone who has posted. You made my weekend, and helped to make this shoot much easier with your advice.

Many thanks and kind regards,

Craig