Up to now I have recorded audio directly to a camcorder, but I have just bought a Zoom H4n to allow me some leeway in recording video in some circumstances. At times I will use it on the camcorder shoe and link the output into the camcorder, the plan then is to keep the recorder running, starting and stopping the camcorder as required.

As it's not a clapper board situation, I was wondering how you would approach cueing the camcorder starts in the recorder audio so I don't spent forever searching for the clips.

In testing I have simply spoken and it worked, but do you have any other, maybe better ideas?

Dave

How to Automatically Sync Dual-System Audio in Premiere Pro (With & Without PluralEyes) (http://nofilmschool.com/2014/12/automatically-sync-dual-system-audio-premiere-pro-plural-eyes)

Thanks, but that's not what I am asking and in any case, I don't have Premier Pro.

Dave

You have created a situation for yourself that is typically solved using timecode. It is difficult to attempt to respond without such information as what camera and what editing software you are using.

Are you aware of the "PluralEyes" software which claims to sync audio and video automatically? Of course, since you have not disclosed what software you are using, we don't know whether this is a useful suggestion or not.

Why use a dual recording system when straight into the camera will save you a lot of time and problems?

I never use a dual system if I am on my own and have only ever really done it when I was recording a music concert so just left the recorder and camera running for the whole duration and did a sync up before the edit.

Dual system is more useful for us at a wedding if I, for instance, run a pastor's wireless mic to the recorder, along with a shotgun mic, then both into the camera. We use a 5d Mark ii so there is one or two frames dropped every 12 minutes. Having continuous audio is useful.

Here, you'll have to find a handy way to mark the files for yourself.

For me, I'll have the subject say the name and the date, always, when I first hit record. But then, I'm referring to weddings, again. If you're talking about frequent starts and stops, like in interview on the street situations, simply saying 'interview 1', 'interview 2' would work, if its just as much about identifying which audio file needs to be matched up as it is about syncing.

Thanks for your replies, however we seem to be going off on a tangent. I am asking simply if you have any better ideas than mine for cueing camcorder starts, not about syncing audio in post, hence the reason I didn't mention what NLE I am using.

The idea is for shooting travelogues, e. g. when on a guided tour and the guide gives lots of interesting information in amongst the dross and I miss it because I am not recording video at that moment. If I leave the audio recorder running, I won't miss any useful titbits and I can add them in as part of the voiceover, only shooting video when the guide points something out that is worth watching. That bit will already be in sync. because it will be recorded by the camcorder.

Robert, your solution is what I was trying during my (short) tests, if that's the best idea then fine, I'll do it. As long as I can identify which video clip goes where in the audio stream, it will do.

Dave

Are you using the Zoom's internal mics, or are you feeding some other signal into the Zoom's audio input?

*IF* you are feeding in an external signal, then I suggest you record that continuous audio on just one input channel of the Zoom. Feed your camera's headphone output into the Zoom's second channel input. You may need to devise some sort of pad to get the levels right. (Presumably the camera's headphone output will be silent when you are not filming.)

When you look at the audio in your NLE, the portions with audio on both tracks will correspond to the various camera takes. That will make it easy to see where each take starts and ends. (But of course you will NOT use the "second channel" audio in your final mix, because it will have some added noise and distortion after going through the camera. You will only ever use the "first channel" audio in your final mix.)

- - - - -

Otherwise, before you start the day, make sure the internal date/time clocks in both devices are pretty closely in sync ... at least within a second or two. Then by subtracting the timestamp on the audio file from the timestamp on each video file, you will come up with some "offset" numbers for each video file. Those numbers, in turn, will tell you roughly where to look on the unedited audio track.

e.g. if the audio track starts at 09:11:22 and a given video file starts at 09:23:45, then your "offset" would be (09:23:45) - (09:11:22) = 12:23. So if you listen at around 12 min 23 sec after the beginning of the [unedited] audio track, you should find the sound that belongs to that video take. After that, you already know how to get them in sync.

...I am asking simply if you have any better ideas than mine for cueing camcorder starts, not about syncing audio in post, hence the reason I didn't mention what NLE I am using...
The thing is, you're starting a workflow that ends in post. That's why you're getting these questions and proposed solutions. There is no "I just need to know how to shoot it, post doesn't matter" workflow.
...before you start the day, make sure the internal date/time clocks in both devices are pretty closely in sync ... at least within a second or two. Then by subtracting the timestamp on the audio file from the timestamp on each video file, you will come up with some "offset" numbers for each video file. Those numbers, in turn, will tell you roughly where to look on the unedited audio track...
^^^^^^^^^
This!

That's the kind of workflow I would choose first. Of course it depends on your editing software showing you timecode.

Generally, for starts and stops on multi-camera-recorder shoots of all kinds, free-running Time-of-Day timecode on all devices is the best first choice. It still leaves you with the fine sync to do by other methods, but, if you can at least get rough sync of takes about 90% of the work is done!

If I gave the impression that time code is needed for my solution, I'm sorry. It is not.

You just go by the timestamp on each file. (This assumes that the recorder and the camera assign an accurate date/time to each file. It might be the time that particular record mode started; or it might be when record mode ended and the file was closed. In either case, you just do a little math to figure out where you are.) You can look at the file's date/time stamp in Windows Explorer, or whatever filesystem/OS you're using.

Of course I'm assuming the NLE shows a timeline (as opposed to timecode) so you can pick out the spot that's xx:yy minutes and seconds after the beginning of the audio file.

This may be a rather unorthodox procedure. But with a Zoom and an unknown camera, I think the OP will be unable to easily implement any more usual solution.

If I gave the impression that time code is needed for my solution, I'm sorry. It is not.

You just go by the timestamp on each file. (This assumes that the recorder and the camera assign an accurate date/time to each file. It might be the time that particular record mode started; or it might be when record mode ended and the file was closed...

...This may be a rather unorthodox procedure. But with a Zoom and an unknown camera, I think the OP will be unable to easily implement any more usual solution.
In my hurried reading this morning I did miss that - thanks for the clarification. You're right - a timestamp can be very helpful.

Another form of Time-of-Day. Since the OP is reluctant to share details of gear or post workflows, we're swinging in the dark here, but IMO Greg and I are on roughly the same page, whether implemented as timestamp or timecode. Specifics depend on field gear, OS, and NLE capabilities.

As others have said you need to define you post processes before considering what is going on at the front end.

I see this all the time in broadcast and it is all too easy to go shoot and record everything that moves or speaks but if you ain't got the post procedures sorted you will spend an awful lot of time sorting it all out.

Timecode is the way pro systems are used to do this sort of thing as there is a common reference for all constant rolling machines and cameras that may be stop starting during a performance.

That said even with one system rolling and the other stop starting you will need to re-sync for each shot.

If you don't have a timecode reference then all you have to go with is manual syncing or eye matching waveforms so as you say "you will be forever searching for the clips"

That is how we have used the wheels of production and how it is easily done but if you wish to re-define the wheels and therefore ripple that into endless hours in post trying to match random clips with kit that is not up to the job then you may have a long journey ahead!

There may be other software solution such as others have suggested but if you aren't following a defined post workflow that works with them then they may be useless anyway!

It's not that I am reluctant to give details of camera, NLE etc., it's rather that I didn't see the point since I thought I was asking a simple question, expecting answers like clap near the mike, hit it with a hammer or shout Geronimo!:-)

However you have taken me where I didn't expect to go and given me answers I almost certainly would never have thought of. But then, that's why I asked.

The camcorder is a Canon HF G30, the recorder is the ZoomH4nSP. My main NLE is Cinelerra, the original Heroine Virtual fork and I always transcode my footage to DNxHD for editing using Winff.

Both the raw camera files and Zoom files have a time stamp, Mediainfo shows them to the second and the file manager to the minute, but it is lost in the transcoded files. I will need to figure out how to incorporate checking this information into my workflow when necessary.

Thank you.

Dave

The only suggestion I would add is to state the camera's new file number aloud after you start recording (or just before if you have pre-record activated and you can keep up with the actual file number incrementing when you hit the record button.)

Stating aloud the few digits of the camera's new file number is about the least disruptive (shortest time) and most informative thing I know to do.

This should also survive the transcoding function since I assume the new files would at least have the same filename, but you'd need to check that.

If you speak distinctly it also gives you a reasonably easy sync by hand set of waveforms on the timeline.

You don't state if you're using external mics, but I assume if you are that some mic will be close enough going to both devices to pick up your voice clearly.

'Movies' pretty much always have verbal slates, regardless of the advent of TC and metadata.. been that way since the first 'talkie'.

"Not a clapper situation". I assume you said that because of the disruptivenes of it on an uncontrolled set like a tour. There are clapper aps for both android and i-phones. The reason I prefer my real wood clapper is because the aps are not loud enough for my taste. The phone option my help you though because you can put in whatever text you want then quickly change "take numbers". You would then hold it in front of the lens and slate it. You would get text info and a slate mark.

Personally, I like the suggestion of creating a scratch track with the head phone out, good stuff ;-)

Steve

Yes Steve, I prefer to work as unobtrusively as possible and I am pretty sure others on a tour with me would soon get fed up with me yelling "Scene 7 take 2" and clapping the board every time I start the camcorder!:-)

Thanks for the tip about Android clapper apps., I will look into that, but a tablet is one more bit of kit I would have to carry, since I don't have a smart phone.

I need to think this through, but I think a combination of time stamp and a verbal cue is what I shall use since sync. shouldn't be a problem as I plan to use the camcorder audio where lip syc. is required. For me, the downfall of the timestamp on its own is that it gets lost during video transcoding, although the verbal cue will still be there. I shall not transcode the Zoom audio since it will be PCM, so the timestamp will be available in Cinelerra.

I have plenty of time to experiment, the next trip is not until next year and by then I hope I shall have it all worked out.

Thanks all.

Dave

I don't think specifically using the camera's headphone out trick will work because the headphone output is active all the time on all my cameras.

However the concept of having a "flat line" of audio on most of the scratch track is a good idea. Perhaps using a headset mic with low sensitivity going to the scratch track, only showing strong audio when you verbally cue the camera file number after rolling, would serve to indicate the wide expanses of audio-only recording between the camera takes. It would also reduce the sound of you verbally cueing, since the mic would be right at your mouth.

Hey Jay, this seems to have become stood on its head! :-)

The plan is, some of the time, to use the Zoom as a recording on-camera mike and feed the output from it into the camera, so I get a full length commentary plus some synchronised video and audio when I hit record on the camera. I can monitor via the camera's headphone out and quite easily speak into the mikes for a marker.

I don't expect to get useable quality voice all the time, although where I do I will use it, it's as much about not missing the useful information that only a local guide can impart and neither a guide book nor the internet seem to have, so I can incorporate it into my voice-over later, therefore the need to be able to identify which audio goes with what video.

Dave

The traditional documentary method, without using a slate, is to use a mic tap. It's loud, but not heard by the people you're filming.

I always use the camcorder as a dictaphone and say where shooting is taking place, so a simple microphone tap ought to be enough for me to find camcorder starts in the continuous audio after that.

Like I said, I have plenty to think about and some time to experiment before the next trip.

Dave

Hi Dave, You misunderstood my comment.

I was talking about the suggestion first made by Greg and seconded by Steven about using one input channel of the Zoom H4n to be fed from the camera's headphone output as a "visual" scratch track on the NLE audio timeline.

Greg was assuming the camera's headphone output wouldn't be active when the camera wasn't actually rolling. None of my cameras work that way, the headphone output is always active.

If the camera's headphone output was only active while rolling, and that output was being sent to one channel of the H4n, it would show up as periods of silence (an audio flatline on the NLE), intermixed with periods when the audio being recorded by the other channel of the H4n and passed through the camera for sync recording would show up on the audio timeline. (It would also require making the correct cable and keeping the two recording channels of the Zoom and the headphone output of the camera split apart so you didn't create a feedback loop.)

This would allow for easily spotting the times when the camera is doing sync recording and the times when only the H4n is recording on its main input channel.

However, as I was commenting I don't think that would work since the camera's headphone output is always active in my experience.

So as a substitute I suggested using a low sensitivity headset mic to serve the same "visual" purpose on the NLE audio timeline. This would give mostly low ambient audio (almost a flatline) except when you audibly cued a camera file number when starting the camera. You would then be able to see these comment spikes easily, in order to know when the camera is rolling with sync audio fed from the main channel of the Zoom versus the larger periods of time when the Zoom is the only device recording.

I fully understood your plan to use the Zoom H4n as a full-time audio recorder, passing the audio from the Zoom on to the camera for sync recording when the camera is actually running.

I was just suggesting a way to visually find the points on the audio timeline when the camera rolls, in a way that gives more information than just a mic bump, but is also less obtrusive than loudly speaking out or having to look at your Zoom's main mic's audio track on the NLE that will be showing a constant stream of audio.

My suggested plan of a low-sensitivity headset mic for your cueing only, would fit in with what you've intended all along, except for it being an external mic connected to the Zoom if you only intended to exclusively use the H4n's built-in mics.

Hi Jay,

The headphone output on my cameras is also live all the time, as you say.

I had more or less decided against the scratch track idea since Greg said IF I was feeding in an external signal and I wasn't planning to. Also I had forgotten that my as yet unused (except for checking that my idea would work) H4n will record four tracks, so it should be easy to add a third track. I read your post with that in mind and yes, misunderstood what you were saying.

Thanks for taking the time to explain further and clear it up for me.

Dave

You're welcome and good luck with the project.

Do you have a furry wind cover for the H4n built-in mics?

I also have an H4n, as well as the original H4, but I've never actually recorded 4-track audio. I need to read up on it and try it out sometime.

On a side note, because the original H4 didn't have any type of date/time function, it is used at my desk just to record a quarterly event via telephone with just one file that doesn't need a correct timestamp. I only record two channels of audio just to have one track at lower volume if someone loud blows out the main channel.

But the lack of date and time would be a killer in a project like yours, so it's good it was added in the H4n.

Do you have a furry wind cover for the H4n built-in mics? Yes I do, I bought a kit that had, amongst other things, windmuff, attenuator cable, remote control and shoe adaptor.

We just got back from one such trip, which made me decide on the recorder as an almost essential addition. But to throw a spanner in the works, for the first time ever, one of our guides used what he called a "whisper", a radio mike and we all had receivers with darned uncomfortable ear pieces. The units we had were branded "Quiet Voice". I was just thinking we may get that again, do you think it would be feasible to put the earpiece close to, or fix it to, one of the Zoom mikes? I could listen via monitoring headphones so I know what's going on. I wouldn't worry too much about fidelity, as long as I had the commentary so I could use it as the basis for my own voiceover.

Dave

You'd probably get much better audio, and maybe less hassle with gaffer tape and rubber bands, if you can run a patch cord from the Quiet Voice receiver to an input on the Zoom. You will, of course, have to come up with the right connectors, and right gain staging. And you'll have to be sure there's no issue about various rights to record the guide's spiel. (For that matter, you'd probably have rights issues even if you just record the guide acoustically as you initially discussed.)

However, we may be over-complicating this situation. I originally got the impression that you wanted to use the actual audio recording, from times when the camera was off, in your final track. From what you've said immediately above, that is not the case.

So if you only want the "camera-off" audio so you can make notes later, and re-write it for your own voiceovers, why bother with double system at all? I think Gary's suggestion in post #5 was the simplest solution. Record single system for the synced parts of your final project, and let it go at that.

Then use an entirely separate -- and simple -- recorder to capture the commentary from the rest of the tour. You could even use something very simple, like a Sansa Clip in your pocket, to capture what the guide says, for later re-writing and re-voicing. No fuss, and no worries about trying to sync with the video.