Hi folks. Been doing live events for a long time. Never had the budget to pay a bunch of money for a professional switcher setup and all the gear that comes with it, and am a little out of my element figuring it all out. A few weeks ago I started looking at Black Magic's Atem Television Studio and I was super stoked on it until I realized it doesn't do 1080P. Ouch. A lot of the info on it, is several years old but I couldn't find much research on any updates to it or any potential rivals at that price point. I see the Atem 4k Switcher which besides being out of my price range doesn't take more than 1 HDMi input as far as I can tell which is useless for me. I shoot on GH4s and GH3 so the 4 HDMI input option on the Atem Television Studio was crucial. Are there any other competitors or options I should be looking at and researching?

I've been looking at the Roland when I can afford it.
Roland Pro A/V - V-1HD HD Video Switcher (http://proav.roland.com/promos/v-1hd)

Cerevo Livewedge

The Atem Production Switcher 4k has 4 HDMI inputs and does 1080p.
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/atem/techspecs/W-APS-04

Sander you're right it does I looked at the wrong specs for that one. It's a little out of my price range though.

I didn't know about the Roland or the Livewedge! Researching them now.

Have you guys used either?

Hi Guys

We do have a new section dedicated to live streaming here given to us by Chris Hurd so please use it rather than the general DV forum

I've had a livewedge since they came out about a year ago and it's never let me down

Oops sorry I didn't realize there was another section.

Bruce: So it doesn't do 1080P 24 or 30 fps?

Input Options
480/59.94i, 576/50i, 480/59.94p, 576/50p, 720/59.94p, 720/50p, 1080/59.94i, 1080/50i, 1080/59.94p, 1080/50p, 640×480/60Hz, 800×600/60Hz, 1024×768/60Hz, 1280×768/60Hz, 1280×1024/60Hz, 1366×768/60Hz

Josh,

Here is one of the technical things about switchers you need to know. I'll keep it simple.

One of the things that separates low and high priced switchers is scaling. High end switchers have a scaler built in to every input. That allows you to mix sources of different types and output resolutions.

In your price range most do not have scalers, That includes the BMD ATEM line and others.

What that means to you is that every source signal will have to be identical. So.....if every source signal is 1080P 60 for example, you will be fine. You would not be able to mix a 1080P 60 with a 720P 60 signal.

If you are just mixing camera sources this is usually not an issue as long as they have the same output settings. You will not be able to mix any other device that will not match your input setting IE: playback devices, computers (unless matched), older cameras etc.....

The Roland 4 input HDMI switch will probably serve you very well. All devices need to be the same resolution but it DOES have processing that will allow mixing of interlaced and non interlaced signals as long as they are the same resolution.

Steve

That's good to know. That worries me a bit because the number one reason I'm thinking about purchasing one is for filming conferences. While using the a switcher to edit the cameras (they'd all be shooting in 1080P so no issues there) in real time would be awesome and definitely cut down on time, the most time consuming thing I do in post-production is syncing the slides from presentations up to the talks. Often at a conference I can't get a straight capture video of the slides being presented, so I have to film the projector, then I'm sent the Keynote or Power Point file and I extract all the individual slides (and builds) and use the video of the projector screen as a timing track and adjust each and every individual slide. It's like living in the stone age.

I was hoping to have a switcher where I can get that video signal (either from the laptop itself somehow or from the house AV folks if I can push them into doing it) then I could mix the whole thing live and turn 3 weeks of work into 2 days (the day of and the following day adding/fixing anything needed). But now I wonder if that would be a scaling nightmare (especially if every presenter uses a different laptop and there's no way to try to make the video uniformly be 1080P.

Josh,

I am glad you clarified your intent. You are in the dark ages. You are not going to find a thousand dollar solution for mixing the PowerPoint slides. Todays presenters use everything from a lap top to a phone to run presentations on.

To be able to handle it all you would need something like this:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/983417-REG/roland_vr_50hd_multi_format_av_mixer.html


Steve

It sounds like your cameras are not the problem but the projected media source is. Maybe consider adding a scaler like the $295 Decimator MD-HX (http://decimator.com/Products/MiniConverters/MD-HX/MD-HX.html) which can convert a multitude of formats to match your cameras. I use these with an ATEM Television Studio to convert any given camera to 1080i.

That Decimator is quit a device. And for that price it puts other converters to shame with it's multitude of options. In the corporate AV world it would help some of the time but not all the time.

Corporate AV is very slow to change. Believe it or not there is still a lot of VGA cable being used to project at resolutions as low as 1024x768 in 4x3. It is a mix of everything from that to full HD. There is also the variable of where Josh would be getting his feed from ie; the presentation device or an AV device (switcher, DA etc.). There is no single standard for cables, connections, or resolutions. That is why the Roland HD50 would be an ideal device, but maybe overkill for Josh. I should have mentioned they and others make scalers and switchers less pricey and less capable of doing so much. Maybe my post should not have gone straight to the top.

Thanks for the heads up on the Decimator Charles. I had never heard of it and am still in the BMD and Aja world of converters. They are costly and generally perform a single function.

Kind Regards,

Steve

Hey Josh

You hit the nail on the head when you talked about turning 3 weeks into 3 days. We are now doing all our wedding shoots with live broadcast and live mixing. For us a shoot of 8 hours and edit of 20 hours now turns into just a shoot of 8 hours. Time is often a lot more costly than gear .. If you work out your actual cost of spending 3 weeks on a project versus 3 days ..a one off capital expense will pay for itself over and over again and you might also have a bit of time for yourself too!!

One last thing on the Decimator, there is an available Mac and PC control panel which greatly speeds up changing settings. And it also can function as a 1x4 distribution amp, as well as HDMI to SDI (or reverse) cross convertor. Good stuff.

Great information. I'm looking at Decimator Charles, and researching it. Thanks

Steven makes a good point too. It's crazy how antiquated some Corporate AV setups are. It's a real mixed bag depending on where you film. If it's a new Jazz Concert center it's modern stuff, if it's an old hotel it can be VGA and all kinds of crap.

Chris: What setup are using you for Livestreaming/Mixing? I agree on the one off cost point but something like the Roland is WAY out of our budget. Like 7.5 X out of our budget ha ha. We don't do it often but I remember Livestreaming and we able to share the presenter's slides from his laptop with ours (I think it was via the Ethernet but I can't quite remember). That works great for a smaller event like a webinar or something, but the minute I try to get that into a large conference with 15 presenters from different companies and different laptops, and a dedicated AV crew then it bet it would be a no go.

I did see this from BlackMagic and they claim it has a scaler.
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/smartvideohub/techspecs/W-VHS-01

Dumb question: What's an 1X4 distribution amp?

Hi Josh

We have a very simple set up for weddings which consists of our main cam up front at weddings which has a broadcaster pro encoder on it (so I can use it to stream direct if I need to) but mostly this is used as a remote camera going back to a laptop with Livestream Studio software on it and then out via a 4GX wifi hotspot. (Remember we are more often than not outdoors in a park so we have to be portable and not dependant on AC power) We also use either an Action cam (SJ4000) in web cam mode to give us a wide angle rear camera to cut to while I might be repositioning my front camera. At fixed venues with power it's normally just the two Panasonics FZ1000's with XLR adapters both with wireless Broadcasters going back again to Livestream Studio. They seem to work very well and you have a choice of CDN's via Studio but if you need to use the encoders on their own you are restricted to the Live Stream platform


I'm sure pros like Steve or Charles will explain a 1 x4 distribution amp to you

The Decimator is a great tip as a companion to the Roland switcher. When feeding a 1080 projector it might not be needed, but if anything changes from the expected laptop/projector setup, it could save the day.

And people are so right about the manpower that it takes to do long-form editing in post, vs just doing it live. Maybe the live version won't be as perfect and might not have as many features (like bottom 3rds, keyed overlays, etc), but for a typical corporate, school, or church event, it doesn't much matter. Get good audio, good exposure, good framing, and capture all of the important stuff (context, closeups, slides) and you're golden.

Hi Jon

We are using LiveStream Studio software on a laptop and it's really easy to add lower thirds, media clips and overlays ...Makes an event a lot more professional by just adding a lower third with the guy at the podium's name takes it into the professional arena ...They actually even give you thirds graphics with the software to download and you can use just one graphic and have a list of names/titles that you just update when needed. I know it's just a bit of extra "swank" but it does make the end result a lot nicer!

Half the time I think we just get over fussy about our perfect video when it's more often than not way more than the client expects anyway.

Not a dumb question at all:

In its simplest form a distribution amplifier (DA) is a device that takes a single input and outputs it to multiple outputs, So a 1x4 DA would have one input sent to 4 outputs.

To go a step farther some people would call that a spliter but thats not really correct. Real DAs are not passive devises. The "amplifier" in the process adds some level of amplification to the signal to strengthen it if it is a true DA. Therefor you usually use your short cable run on the source/input connection side and let it push the amplified signal to the farther runs of the destination. ie: a projector not near the source.

For example: The Decimator can be programmed to make one SDI connection an input and turn the other four SDI connections into outputs.

Steve

Hi Steven. Thanks for the explanation that makes total sense :)

Chris: What are the wireless broadcasters you use from the camera's to the the computer? Are they proprieatary for Livestream I'm assuming (which is why you mention they'll only work with it) as opposed to something like the TeraDek's?

I'm still wondering if there's someway to capture the video/photo presentations coming off the speakers laptop (or whatever presenting device) when it's at a major conference (that isn't a $7000 solution). Like has anybody approached AV and stuck an Atomos Ninja or something near the video out before or after it gets to the projector screen to capture the feed. If I could avoid having to sync each and every individual slide in post from a presenter's talk I would be so happy. It takes more time than anything else in my pipeline by far (capturing the video from camera's in post production and syncing them for example).

Hi Josh

Yeah the Broadcaster Pro is around $500 and will send your camera output to the Livestream server via a wifi hotspot but it's restricted to streaming to their servers only. However you can also use them as remote cameras (which we do) and use LiveStream's Studio software which allows you to stream anywhere and it has a myriad of input options ... There is a free version that is restricted to LS only and two cams only but it's worth a look as it has a LOT of features that you could test out and see if you can get an output from the slideshow into the software ... if you get it to work then the full version is $799 so worth playing with the free version .. I have an idea it also accepts RMPT streams so being able to get the slideshow output and be able to switch to it would be very useful as sticking a camera on a stand and pointing at the slideshow screen gives awful results ....LS support are also very helpful ..I would download the software and play with it!!

Chris, good stuff. That's fairly inexpensive and sounds like a rad setup for Livestreaming in general. I just used Livestream earlier this week for a Webinar type video, but it was a super simple 1 camera setup. So when you say remote do you just mean that you can control the cameras from the Laptop or do you mean you can be wireless (sans HDMI, SDI whatever) and directly to the hotspot and then the computer? Like a version of a Teradek but it only works with Livestream? Great to now on the software as well. I remember many years ago there being a feature where as long as the computer was on the same network or something along those lines, after the comp gave permission you could broadcast their screen. That would be huge.

Side question for folks. It looks like I may have lucked out and I might be able to have one single laptop for every presentation. And the AV crew is ok with me plugging something into the laptop as long as it's not in their export chain. Which means my goal of trying to get a video file for the presenter's slides as he or she changes it, might be more manageable. So besides just a general screen capture with something like ScreenFlow to a fast external hard drive (which might be the answer) any other potentially more reliable ways to use a recording device to capture the laptops screen contents?

Hey Josh

The Encoder works just like an HDMI wireless unit in remote camera mode so video and audio is passed wirelessly to the studio software and acts the same as a wired SDI or HDMI input but your computer doesn't need a Black Magic input card to do the job. Probably around the same price as a BM card in the end but you can work without any cables. Of course the other advantage is that if you want to stream direct from the encoder it will take you wirelessly direct to the Livestream server with no other hardware required BUT it only broadcasts to Livestream!! In remote camera mode it again only streams to the Studio 4.2 software but Studio of course allows you to broadcast out to any CDN including FB live and You Tube Live and all the usual services as long as you have an account with them. I looked at other providers apart from FB and YT and didn't like the fact they charge you according to views whereas for $499 a year LiveStream allows unlimited views and unlimited storage of the DVR copy of the stream.

Got it. So the only wires in the scenario is a short HDMI out of the cam and into the Broadcaster (if you have multiple cameras then, you'll need multiple broadcasters) which then wirelessly transmits the camera signals back to the studio and streams away. For Livestream when I've used it, the final that is saved to the server after the event is streamed is an .mp4 with some quality loss. Is there a way to get a higher quality codec, and if so can the Broadcasters and the laptop handle it coming in/out?

Hi Josh

As a remote camera the broadcaster can stream out a maximum of HD+ (5.2mbps) direct to the Studio Software and Studio can stream a little higher ... If you stream out at this rate on the broadcaster it handles it with ease direct to the CDN but my i72600 CPU works rather hard when given video at this rate and now and again the CPU will get to 95% but I have never lost a stream ...Unless you have something like an Alienware gaming laptop and are prepared to fork over $4000+ then a standard (even i7 laptop) simply cannot handle the incoming video ...We have tried a Toshiba with an i7 2.4 - 3.1 GHz processor and it struggles!!!!

AFAIK the studio software will accept projects right up to UHD inputs but the DVR is an MP4 at 1280x720 but still quite watchable if you download it.

I still like the idea of the Roland V‑1HD ‑ Video switcher with 4 hdmi inputs and two outputs. One would go to hdmi > usb convert . The second gives to a monitor with pip of the four cameras. So up to four cameras. If you have two converters which most i7 laptops could cope with you could stream the PowerPoint into the second thus allowing pip mix using software. (In my case xsplit)

Hi Donald

Just for interest have you tried your system on a run of the mill i7 laptop? Can it handle a 1280x720 video stream coming from the HDMI to USB convertors? All the ones I have tried fail miserably and I really cannot see any point in having a laptop that dies if you put a 720 stream thru it at around 2.6mbps ..unless of course you are just needing a 480P stream at a very low bitrate ...Are you running your system on a desktop or laptop? With me, even a 2gb i5 struggles with a 480P broadcast and most laptops are a lot slower ..We tried an Asus i7 and it was hopeless even at 480P and 1 mbps bitrate ... Unless you pay big money for a gaming laptop of course ..which I don't have!!

Josh, have you looked into cheap (sub $100) game capture boxes like this one https://amzn.com/B017UZW79E

I use a different model and have been satisfied with the results, especially with Powerpoint Slides that look as good as the original. You end up with an easy-to-overlay video file that is accurate to your recording (assuming you're not starting/stopping the camera or recorder). Great for long sessions, but I still recommend rolling a 2nd camera for sync confirmation, or when the presenter is using a laser pointer on the screen.

Hi Oren. I did think of that in the beginning. What made me nervous is I think I couldn't find one of those boxes that had visual confirmation of what screen it was recording. Like a little LCD screen that shows it's capturing the screen correctly (as opposed to just a green light or a flashing light or something). Maybe it's silly but it made me nervous. I also wondered something you might have an answer for. If the HDMI box like the link you listed is actually screen capturing, and a lot of presenters use applications where you can see your presentation screen but also your notes for the presentation, you might have a shot of the presentation you can't use then right?

Unfortunately my laptop suffered blue screens and is back to the shop for repair. But in my test I could take two hdmi > usb converters into the laptop. Uploaded to youtube ok. But i deleted it soon after. (Who wants to see my ugly test.) I also have a Sony pxw x70 and tried to add this to the mix it can stream wifi to VLC then screen grab that into Xsplit broadcast. But that proved to much. Maybe a third converter might work. I should say that was 720p as it's still the free Xsplit at the moment.

Chris: So do you folks have more than one Broadcaster? And if so, can the computer handle 2 or 3 camrera's?

Hi Josh

As a remote camera the broadcaster can stream out a maximum of HD+ (5.2mbps) direct to the Studio Software and Studio can stream a little higher ... If you stream out at this rate on the broadcaster it handles it with ease direct to the CDN but my i72600 CPU works rather hard when given video at this rate and now and again the CPU will get to 95% but I have never lost a stream ...Unless you have something like an Alienware gaming laptop and are prepared to fork over $4000+ then a standard (even i7 laptop) simply cannot handle the incoming video ...We have tried a Toshiba with an i7 2.4 - 3.1 GHz processor and it struggles!!!!

AFAIK the studio software will accept projects right up to UHD inputs but the DVR is an MP4 at 1280x720 but still quite watchable if you download it.

Hi Oren. I did think of that in the beginning. What made me nervous is I think I couldn't find one of those boxes that had visual confirmation of what screen it was recording. Like a little LCD screen that shows it's capturing the screen correctly (as opposed to just a green light or a flashing light or something). Maybe it's silly but it made me nervous. I also wondered something you might have an answer for. If the HDMI box like the link you listed is actually screen capturing, and a lot of presenters use applications where you can see your presentation screen but also your notes for the presentation, you might have a shot of the presentation you can't use then right?

Legitimate concerns. My first choice would be to get a copy of the slidedeck (not always possible), but if there are animations, it makes my work much harder. That is where the HDMI recorder comes in, which is my new go-to option. But I still train a cheap HD camera on the screen just in case something goes wrong. Having an LCD confirmation would be nice, but typically I set them up close to the laptop. That's not the ideal location to monitor when you're at a camera position (often furthest from the presenter's laptop). It's a leap of faith, so having a backup is essential. If you're lucky, then the entire recorded presentation can simply be overlaid on the main camera's image and it all just lines up neatly.

Got it. There so inexpensive they are absolutely worth trying. Do you ever run into a situation where the screen capture shows presenter's notes and you can't use it?

Also is using the device as simple as just plugging it into the computer, and just pushing a few buttons?

Hi Josh

The software can handle 10 remote cameras and 25 SDI inputs so it's not the incomings that tax the CPU but the outgoing stream ..We can have multiple cameras running into the software and the CPU can idle and quite a reasonable rate ...As soon as you do the broadcast, that's where the CPU usage sky rockets and when it has to work hard!! I can (for example) drop a pre-rendered video in the media section of the software that's 1920x1080 and been rendered previously at 8000 kbps and if I stream that online the CPU % climbs dramatically compared to the live camera which is coming thru the broadcaster at 2.3mbs .. Livestream suggest an i7 SixCore processor for best performance.

Got it. There so inexpensive they are absolutely worth trying. Do you ever run into a situation where the screen capture shows presenter's notes and you can't use it?

Also is using the device as simple as just plugging it into the computer, and just pushing a few buttons?

The one I have really is a one-push recorder, and the only issue I had was when I forgot to format the usb drive and ran out of space....so chalk it up to a user error. Only put it through 4 or 5 shoots though...so I can't speak to the longevity or future issues that arise.
As for setup, you plug in the power, put in your USB drive (formatted, duh!), and take an HDMI in and supply an HDMI out back to the monitor or projector.
I would love a display that shows time/space remaining and some confidence inspiring notifications that it's recording at 1080 (or 720).

Chris, awesome. That's good to know and super interesting to understand that's where the potential bottleneck is.

Hi Josh

If you need to see how a computer or laptop will perform as a vision switcher you can open a free Livestream account (the public cannot watch it unless they are also account holders and the Studio software also has a free version for download (it does have limitations but you have full streaming facilities plus it's limited in the number of cameras) That way it's something to play with and see what your current gear can do without costing you anything. I used both the free account and free switcher options to test a bunch of laptops and desktop to see which would cope with an HD video stream ....one can even use a web cam as a temporary video source and even my action cams plug into the software via USB ..Definitely worth a play!!!

Hi Chris. Yeah I Livestreamed something for a client last week using my GH4 and the Black Magic Mini-Recorder. My laptop did fine, the stream said "Perfect Streaming" but it was still a little glitchy an skipped quite often. I tested the ethernet connection before and after and it was screaming fast so not sure what it was. I'm going to ping Livestream and ask them. I do like the idea of renting a Broadcaster or two though and using them to push multiple HD streams and then see if/how bad my computer chokes. Luckily I'm not asked to livestream often, but I really like that the Broadcaster can basically be used as a less expensive TeraDek. While it's may only be with Livestream servers, that's historically been the only livestream company as client as asked me to use (if they were specific at all).

Oren: Couple quick question.

1. If AV at the conference isn't using HDMI to connect from computer to projector (before we put this box in between the two to capture the video contents) and using something else like Thunderboldt or something older, will the box still capture if it has it's HDMI in but doesn't have an HDMI out to pass through?

2. If the laptop doesn't have an HDMI port will using a USB to HDMI convertor and then feeding that into the recording box work?

Have you tried either? I'm obviously going to test the box extensively when I get it, but trying to determine it's possible capabilities before doing so. Especially because for the gig I'll be doing if one works, we'll be buying 4 more.

I saw mentioned a few times earlier in the thread that the cameras would be shooting 1080p. Wanted to point out that many camcorders default to putting out 1080i over the HDMI port even if the camera is set internally to record 24p or 30p. Possibly 60p as well, haven't worked with many late-model camcorders. Point being that cameras do this because most/all displays are built to accept 1080i, but not all accept 1080p sources. So just wanted to bring it up that the assumption that the cameras will be outputting 1080p may not be completely correct and that needs to be considered as part of the workflow.

Thanks

Jeff

hey Jeff, thanks for making that clarification, I appreciate it!

Hey Oren, I purchased one of those cheap gaming boxes to test it out today (along with a slew of other stuff for a whopping 4 big conferences coming up in the next month). Anyway, right when I opened it I could hear something rattling inside so I assumed it was potentially damaged. Tested it anyways and couldn't get that model to work. I set up everything correctly so it's most likely the box. The only potential fail point is that since my laptop is older and doesn't have HDMI out, and I don't have any Thunderboldt to HDMI convertors on hand, I just used my GH4 instead as the outgoing HDMI signal instead. So if for some reason that doesn't work for the capture box, then maybe it wasn't broken.

Unrelated I did notice when I plugged in an external USB powered drive the gaming box would flutter as the power waxed and waned. When I plugged in an external that was DC powered it didn't. But either way it didn't work. I did read that apparently because it records to H.264 and not something like Apple ProRes 422, most people use flash drives of all things to store the captured video. In theory a 32 GB flash drive (according to one of the productions) would be 7-8 hours, so for test 2 I'll try that as well.

Also for laptops that don't have HDMI out but have Thunderboldt, do you purchase a convertor to go that route? I'm assuming with the multiple different kinds of presentation machines they can't all have HDMI out.

Looks like of these boxes the 3 most popular on Amazon are the following.
*Other than the Elgato systems the other 2 have microphone jacks to record somekind of ambient audio for sync sound.

Elgato Systems
https://www.amazon.com/Elgato-Systems-Capture-Definition-Recorder/dp/B00840353W/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1475218853&sr=8-4&keywords=HD+gaming+capture+devices
-doesn't do 1080 24P though. It's 1080 30P.
*I'm guessing that's going to be the case for everyone probably. Which means I need to run a conversion for 30P down to 24P or else I'll have slipping in the edit when I'm Multi Cam editing it.


Haupauge HDPVR Rocket
https://www.amazon.com/Hauppauge-Gaming-Definition-Capture-Device/dp/B00GEBVEI6/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1475218853&sr=8-3&keywords=HD%2Bgaming%2Bcapture%2Bdevices&th=1
-also doesn't do 24P.
-powered solely by the laptop. Standalone

AVer Media Game Capture HD2 (points for being the coolest looking)
https://www.amazon.com/AVerMedia-Definition-Commentate-Recorder-C285/dp/B00F890KXU/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&qid=1475220451&sr=8-17&keywords=HD+gaming+capture+devices
-AC powered
-records Fat32

For the purposes of time for an upcoming conference, I'm going to go ahead and purchase 2 of the AVers, and 1 of the Pocket Rocket and see if either work. before next week. If not, there's no pressure from client, but hopefully they work!

The audio is for voice over when playing games. If you need more than one converter I would buy different makes as I could not get my two Elgatos to play nice. Bought an Aver and now I can get two streams working.

Hi Donald. My plan was just to plug a mic in and all it has to pick up is the ambient room sounds so I can match that the XLR feed from the av crew I get at each conference. General setup for me is every camera records onboard audio but a portable audio recorder gets the XLR "drop" from AV with the good audio. I then syne them all together. I'm hoping plugging in an existing mic i own at the podium will pick up the speakers and stuff enough to be like another onboard camera level mic recording. Do you think that works or am I missing something?

For audio I intend to try this battery powered mixer with a USB adapter. https://reverb-res.cloudinary.com/image/upload/s--oPH8om2l--/a_exif,c_limit,f_auto,fl_progressive,g_south,h_620,q_auto:eco,w_620/v1471633861/wmhroizorkjzx0gkklof.jpg