Well renting these videos was a wise choice as now I'll ultimately save cash. I'm going to stick with the X70 for a few more years. While the AF improvements would be welcome, there's still too much compromise for 4K for my liking.

Once 10-bit 4:2:2 4K shows up at around 3 to 3.5K USD, I'll move.

Side note... I'm currently trying out your WSYWIG recommended profile Doug, but on the X70. Matching things up the best I could. I think shutting off the auto knee and the black level changes made the most difference. Previously, I was just using a very slight modification to PP4.

Thanks, Ricky. I'd be interested to hear how well my profile works on the X70 after you've had time to use it more.

Doug, where are the profiles located?

If included in your Vimeo tutorial, I am not up to that chapter yet. Nice job by the way.

Hi Lou, chapter 14 is the one you want for profiles. I'm glad you're liking the video so far. Thanks.

Use Cine 1 as there is NO Cine 4 in the X70. I was able to match my AX-700 and X-70 very well. I would recommend +4 for saturation on the X-70, but that is a matter of personal preference. I kept +2 on the AX-700.

Doug's PP is SPOT ON!!

Thanks, Ricky. I'd be interested to hear how well my profile works on the X70 after you've had time to use it more.

So it looks like some of our lively debate was deleted. So, I'll just type an easy and neutral "admin friendly" comment because the other stuff must have been too strong. (Sorry if that was the case)

Dynamic range - I believe the NX80 puts out about 10 stops, not the 14 that was stated. I believe that SLog-2 does capture more DR than Cine 1 or 2. I think the files show this with no trouble.

As promised, I'm posting 3 files I shot today. These are only 20 seconds each and are straight off the NX80 card. It's a tough scene with bright sky and dark trees. I exposed all three to the right and took the clouds up high but nothing is clipped. It's a "top to bottom" test just to see everything this sensor can put out.

Without even grading it, it's easy to see that SLog-2 does capture more DR than Cine 1 and 2. Dark trees show detail in the bark and shadowy grass stands out easily. You can choose to expose and grade this any way you want. When shooting, with that extra latitude, you can expose in two ways. You can protect more whites and blow them less or expose to the right and dig deeper down into the shadows. So it will give you a little more in post to work with. (Not allot but a little more) No, I never said this was an Arri Alexa, FS7, F5 or RED or anything of the sort. I know the dynamic range limitations of this sensor full well and all it's other limits too.

In my opinion, avoid SLog-3 like the plague. It's way, way too much for this sensor to handle and I'm surprised that SLog-3 was actually given to this camera. You cant drop a 10 stop sensor output into a 16 stop curve. This sensor just cant cover enough distance to make Slog-3 into anything usable. But definitely try this for yourself. A 10stop sensor needs a 10stop log curve. This is why SLog-2 can be used, because it's bent to match each sensor's full output and nothing more. There are no wasted stops.

Importance of dynamic range vs every other aspect of shooting - I never said dynamic range was more important than any or every other aspect of shooting. Obviously, a persons ability pick his subject, to frame, focus and expose well and tell his story is the ultimate goal of any shooter. DR is simply ONE thing on a list of many, many, many things. I never said this was not the case. I have never believed DR was some kind of be all, end all for one second of my life.

I never said or suggested that the NX80 was any spectacular or exceptional performer in any way. I simply said it was very good for what it was built for and it's low price. No, I do not believe this should replace anybody's super35 camera and I do not believe that it should be used for television broadcast. (Another idea that came up that doesn't make sense to me where it came from) I believe it is a very nice little camera that does a lot for it's price. I believe that if you own this camera,...and maybe if it's the only one you own,..you can use it for certain situations in SLog-2 and it can give you more post options if you are willing to do the work on it. (The usual, color grade and noise reduction etc...)

I certainly never said this camera should replace a traditional shoulder ENG camera for broadcast. I also certainly never said SLog-2 should be used for live feeds either. Again,...I'm not sure why this was ever brought into question.

Anyhoo,...here are the three 20 second clips and one of me just describing what I'm doing. This is intended for anybody that is curious to download and test on their own and judge for themselves. If you are planning on buying an NX80/Z90, you can see these untouched files and inspect. Remember, these are all exposed for a maximum dynamic range test so they are on the hot side of the scopes.

I'm off to Walt Disney World for the 3 day weekend and I'll play with it on Tuesday.

No,..I'm not expecting anybody to "grade this for me". Again, really confused as to where that sentiment came from.

For anybody that is curious, check it out and see for yourself and see how this all works for you. (for good or bad)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RPkSpm35RdYl2tWtGdz8dtLiBRg1K0en

Respectfully,

CT

I will sum up my thoughts with this: In all my testing with the Z90, I have never seen S-LOG provide superior results (even after grading in Resolve for standard REC709 delivery) to what can be done with a custom Picture Profile. I'm pretty certain that I'll never shoot S-LOG with the Z90 on a real shoot. Your mileage may vary.

Just a quick look 1t Cliff's clips as I see them in FCPX 10.4 with scopes and the S-Log 2 clip quickly graded in CoreMelt Chromatic

I'm sure most of us know this but for anybody that doesn't, on Cine 1 vs Cine 2 and SLog-2 on the scopes:

SLog-2 actually allows for 109 IRE. It's not broadcast legal. (there is no reason for that anyway)

Let me see if I get this right from memory... 8bit values for broadcast are 0 to 236? This takes you to 100IRE. However, 0-255 is 109 IRE and that is the full 8bit sampling range.

Technically, 8bit depth capability is 0-255 but when we shoot under boradcast legal, we slice anything over 100....so we are using a high of 236 instead of 255 so that's "7.5" bits instead of the full 8 bit ? Hehe.

Cine1 also goes outside broadcast legal to and Cine2 stays inside at 100 IRE clipping.

Did I get that right? ;-)

I asked Alister Chapman about the use of S-Log 2 on the Z90 in UHD and his response:

"I used S-Log2 because in UHD you only have a very limited data range to play with and S-Log3 only uses 80% of the already limited range while S-Log2 uses 95%. I am happy with the results having graded it in Resolve but there isn’t quite the same dynamic range you can get from a camera like the FS5 or FS7."

Alister's review in which he mentioned,
"I also shot at a couple of locations using S-Log2 to test how that worked (I was shooting in UHD and the camera is 8 bit in UHD. For 8 bit I prefer S-Log2 over S-Log3)."
The Sony PXW-Z90 ? a compact 4K camcorder with auto focus at it's best! | XDCAM-USER.COM (http://www.xdcam-user.com/2018/02/the-sony-pxw-z90-a-compact-4k-camcorder-with-auto-focus-at-its-best/)

Talk is cheap, where's the footage? Let's see it. And it would also like to see his S-LOG2 (graded) and a good custom Picture Profile split-screened on the same shots to illustrate how great S-LOG2 is on the Z90. Let's see it. People talk about how great S-LOG is in the Z90, but I've not seen any evidence of it.

I dont think I have read anybody say that SLOG-2 is great or wonderful or spectacular or amazing or anything of the sort. I have also not seen anybody ever say that the Z90's SLog-2 competes with "TRUE" 14 stop cameras like FS700, FS5, FS7 or F5.

Doug,...you are the only one I have EVER read that stated it has an astounding "14stops" of dynamic range. I have read nobody on planet Earth that has ever said this,...but you.

If what you stated WAS true, than it WOULD be an amazing, wonderful and spectacular SLog-2 performer without question. The reason why it does not perform as well as these Sony cine cameras is because it only has around 10-11 stops.

Bottom line: I think the ONLY point that anybody has ever made about SLog-2 on the Z90 is that it gives you the most dynamic range that the Z90 sensor can muster. In other words,..the most this little guy can output.

That's it. It's that simple. It does not go anywhere beyond this. The Z90 / NX80's SLog-2 is GOOD but it's not "great"....it's just recording the "most" DR it's got. That's all. It's important to keep our expectations of this 1inch-type sensor "realistic" and not try to think it has fantasy DR performance!

You are the only one that has ever suggested anything contrary to this idea....

I say this politely and with all due respect,

CT

Alister (as quoted by Craig Seeman): "I am happy with the results having graded it in Resolve".

Alister (as quoted by Craig Seeman): "I am happy with the results having graded it in Resolve".

Sony usually has Alister represent the company all over the world. They clearly trust and respect his techical understanding of how image sensors work and how logarithmic gamma compression works. They use Alister to TEACH this stuff on their behalf. He will probably be giving Sony technical presentations about 50 ft away from you at NAB next month. Im sure he would allow you to ask him questions and to challange him on this in between his Sony lectures. There are also plenty of other Sony people there for you to argue with too.

You can certainly challenge everybody's happiness with Slog-2 on the Z90 all you want.

CT

I am not a Sony shill, and I don't care to argue with anybody about S-LOG. Just show me the footage. Simple as that.

Simon Wyndham does S-Log for RedShark News

https://www.redsharknews.com/production/item/5314-the-pxw-z90-sony-has-created-another-classic

For most of my testing I used S-Log3, and some S-Log2 gamma settings. These were matched with the S-Log3.cine colourspace in the case of S-Log3, and the S-log2 5500k colourspace for S-Log2.
...
In my test footage below you will notice noise in the lowlights. But this should be taken in context of the user. I played very safe with the exposure, despite knowing that with S-Log3 it is usually best to err on over exposure without clipping to minimise this. This is just a case of using the camera for much longer and testing extensively how much you can get away with.
...
For my test footage I tried to leave the footage as close to out of the camera as I could. An S-Log3 to LC709 Type A LUT was applied, and in some cases some minor exposure adjustment made where I wasn’t demonstrating a function such as gain. Other than that, the footage was relatively untouched unless I specify in the video otherwise.
...
In playing around with grading, I did find that perhaps this isn’t a camera, in 8-bit 4K modes at least, that you can reach very far into the shadows with, so along with the highlights you will need to be balanced with your exposures to protect the areas you deem most important for the shot you need. We can’t expect everything from a Palmcorder after all! Clearly the 10-bit 1080p modes will give you the most mileage with regard to grading potential.
...
However, although it isn’t meant to be a cinema camera, switch it into the S-Log modes and dial down the detail, and you have a very functional discreet documentary camera,
...
But the fact that you can also use 1080p at 10-bit 4:2:2 with HLG or S-Log means that you should be good for high quality gradeable footage if 4K isn’t essential.

Sony PXW-Z90 tests on Vimeo

All footage edited and handled within DaVinci Resolve 14.3 with only very basic tinkering. I wanted to keep the picture as close to what comes out of the camera as possible. Therefore aside from the waterfall shots, all were taken with S-Log3 gamma and S-Log3.cine colourspace, and had a basic S-Log3-709 type LUT applied (in this case Type A) in Resolve, and in some cases some minor exposure correction. The waterfall shots were taken at the default sharpness settings, while everything else was taken at detail -5. This I thought gave the most natural 'filmic' looking picture without becoming overly soft. The default was far too sharp.

For my taste, I found SLog-3 to be completely unusable. SLog-3 is a 16 stop curve and that is just too much gamma compression for a 10-11 stop sensor. It's like a quart of milk into 1 gallon container. Doing this in 8bit just aggravates the problem.

SLog-2 is more realistic. Its job is to take ONLY what this sensor CAN actually output and map it to 0-255. It doesnt record and waste all that unused headroom on air and nothingness.

But hey, thats just me, give SLog-3 a shot and a try for yourself. That has always been my attitude with every workflow topic. Dont experiment on serious stuff,..but absolutely DO experiment in your back yard as much as you possibly can!

I dont believe in the "I dont like it....and neither should you" mentality. On the hiking trail, I will tell you the trail is blocked, but I'll give credit if you go there anyway to see for yourself. I respect that tenacity! Maybe you will find a detour that I didnt see and I'll be the first one be rooting for you to get around it.

That's "my" mentality. But I guess everybody is different.

CT

P.s. Just watched this video. Looks to me like this shooter really under exposed several of his SLog scenes. (I'd have to download this video and look at scopes to be sure) Although I dont see his ungraded shots on scopes, generally speaking you need to expose Slog to the right to get the maximum levels in teh recording. You can then stretch (contrast) the waveform "downward" (roughly speaking) in post. If you record your brightest whites way below 109 IRE (SLog-2) then you are going to give yourself a noisy headache in post. SLog gives you headroom. The more of it you use in field, the better your signal to noise ratio is when yo grade it. This goes for all cameras and Slog-2.

Cliff,

You are an obnoxious, internet troll. I am getting tired of reading your stuff. You rant and rave for pages but never prove or post anything that disproves anything Doug Jensen says. Why Doug replies to you is beyond me.

Wow,...what did I say that was so bad or wrong?

What I write here is no different than what anybody else writes here. We all have different opinions and that's great. I'm not trying to "prove" or "disprove" anything that anybody says here. I'm just giving an opinion like everybody else. I'm not "competing" with Doug or anybody else.

Now,...you will find strong disagreements on ANY video forum. (I think this one is one of the more "mild" ones. There are some truly "harsh" people on some other sites) You will find disagreements going on all over the NAB and IBC conventions floor all day long. If you get 1,000 camera guys and colorists and engineers in a room, you are going to hear PLENTY of vigorous debate by everybody. This is 100% normal and VERY much part of this industry.

Having a different opinion from somebody or anybody here does not make you a "troll". There are no two people in this industry that think the exact same way about every topic.

As far as Doug is concerned, I agree with him on MUCH more than I disagree with him.

I don't know why different opinions are looked at by some to be a bad thing. Did my last post have anything offensive, negative, personal or anything horrible in it?

CT

Post proof of your Slog claims or move on.

Craig -
Simon Wyndham does S-Log for RedShark News

https://www.redsharknews.com/production/item/5314-the-pxw-z90-sony-has-created-another-classic

After reading Simon's review in the link and one of his other reviews, .... and ... I want one!
Talked to my wife and she asked me which cam I'd sell, the AX53 or the AX100. Good thing she didn't mention both.

For my needs, the NX80 should suffice, not sure what one would be missing. It'd be tough to part with one of its siblings, though.

Post proof of your Slog claims or move on.

I did post files that I shot about a couple of pages back. Did you download the test files and look at them?

My SLog-2 claim is super simple: It's just this.....SLog-2 captures more dynamic range than the Cine profiles

The files I uploaded show this. That's all I'm saying. There is nothing more to it. If you look at the files and disagree with me and you don't see further into the shadows on the grass and tree bark, than so be it. Sony can see it, other shooters can see it, I can easily see it but maybe you see something different....and I wont say you are "wrong". That's cool.

We are all free to think for ourselves and I'm totally good with that and I'm not pointing fingers or flaming them for not agreeing with me.

If you think I'm wrong, that's fine! I'm NOT going to call you a "troll" for debating me about it!


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RPkSpm35RdYl2tWtGdz8dtLiBRg1K0en/view?usp=sharing

CT

It is silly for me to post footage to show how awful something is. Anything can me made to look awful if someone wants to make a point or simply doesn't know what the hell they are doing. I am asking YOU to show me something that proves S-LOG on the Z90 is better than shooting on REC709. Choose any subject you want, any contrast conditions, anything at all, and show us once and for all that S-LOG is better than any PP you want to choose from 1 - 6, even though I don't think any of those PP's truly take advantage of what the camera can do .
.

I think the last words in the last sentence that Doug said in his post is also what I'm generally trying to say as well. I agree with him.

SLog-2 always maps the FULL sensor's read out and the rec709-ish ones don't. This goes for whatever sensor that SLog-2 is calibrated for in each particular camera model.

I don't understand why a couple of people are flaming me for saying this. Why is me saying this so "horrible" to some people?

CT

Craig -

After reading Simon's review in the link and one of his other reviews, .... and ... I want one!
Talked to my wife and she asked me which cam I'd sell, the AX53 or the AX100. Good thing she didn't mention both.

For my needs, the NX80 should suffice, not sure what one would be missing. It'd be tough to part with one of its siblings, though.

John, I have the AX53, AX100 and now the Z90. The AX100 can still hold its own with good 4K video, in my opinion. But, the BOSS of the AX53 is really great. I recommend you keep the AX53 and get yourself a new NX80 (if you don't need the 4:2:2 10-bit FHD of the Z90). The image stabilization of the Z90 is identical to the AX100, no better. Haven't done a low-light test yet, sorry.

Cliff,

Thank you for posting Simon's video because it completely proves my point that S-LOG looks like crap on the Z90. Simon and I have known each other for more than a decade and I have nothing but respect for him and his work, so if he cannot make S-LOG look good, then I know I'm on solid ground recommending that it be avoided on the Z90. As for Alister's differing opinion, well, to my knowledge he hasn't actually shown any S-LOG footage and, as you have pointed out, he has a very close relationship with Sony. Enough said.

There is not a single shot in Simon's video that looks acceptable. For example, look at the noise in the sunset at :51, noise in the woman's jacket at 1:13. Look at the waves and rocks at 1:36 and notice how drab it is with no bright whites and no true blacks. And look at the dreary, colorless, drab sunset at 2:05. Is that what we want? The whole video is noisy, flat, low-contrast, low-saturation, and somewhat soft. Nothing pops. Nothing looks clear, clean, and crisp. It's all muddy and low-contrast. Totally unacceptable.

Fortunately, I know Simon personally and I've already shot plenty S-LOG on the Z90 to know where the problem lies -- it is with the camera and not the operator. I cannot stress enough how much better his video would have looked if it had been shot with the Picture Profile that I create in the course of my Z90 training video. In fact, his video would have looked better if it had been shot with any of the default picture profiles 1 - 6 instead of S-LOG.

By comparison, look at the Z90 demo video I shot last October (posted down below). Now, there are a lot of crappy shots in this video too and I'm not going to hold it out there as some kind of glorious example of beautiful cinematography, but please compare the overall clarity, sharpness, dynamic range, of this video with that of Simon's. Which one looks better? I much prefer the look of my video which was all shot with various non-SLOG Picture Profiles -- that also have the time-saving advantage of no grading needed.

Simon's video just reinforces my low opinion of S-LOG on the Z90. And before you go blaming it on the fact that Simon used S-LOG3 instead of S-LOG2, I'm going to tell you that it doesn't matter. S-LOG2 looks like crap too. So I repeat my earlier challenge, put up some great looking S-LOG video of your own or please sit down and be quiet.

Sony PXW-Z90 Test Footage on Vimeo

Perhaps I'm missing something! This footage above is not a 'test but rather a demonstration of what the shooter can do with the particular cam along with what he can do in post. The same must be said about Simon Wyndham's footage.

A test, that is a scientifically valid test, as I understand it consists of a control, that is the camera set on a tripod with all settings somewhat standard and footage recorded then the same camera, same settings, same light, same everything except now shooting in the variation being tested, Vlog or whatever. Post the ungraded footage and for all to download and grade, or whatever.

Neither Doug's nor Simon's footage meets the most fundamental definition of a 'test' and consequently proves nothing other than both shooters are somewhat competent camera operators and probably highly incompetent scientists :-)

This is not rocket science in fact this is hardly more than Secondary School level science. I would dearly like to see a test, a real test, a valid test, of the subject under discussion.

OK Doug,...even "I'm" getting tired of this topic but I guess you want to keep thing going.....

I can clearly see you are not even reading these posts. I did not upload that "Simon video". If you were actually reading you would see that it looks to me that he underexposed his SLog-2 and yes, SLog-3 is terrible on this camera.

Do we all know what we get when we underexpose Slog-2 and don't expose it to the right? You record wasted headroom on "air"and this leads to excessive noise on every camera that is done on.

OK,...So I'm guessing you didn't even bother to look at the files I posed here. But I'll take the time to do a quick Slog-2 grade form the files I already posted. I somehow doubt you will look at that anyway too.

Stay tuned....

John, both of these video are indeed tests of the camera, but granted, not the kind of head to head tests between various settings that you would like to see. But I have done those tightly controlled A vs B tests and S-LOG always comes out the loser. I’m not going to post those tests because they were done with people and locations that didn’t consent to being presented for public display. So someone can either believe me, call me a fool, or just go along their merry way, it makes no difference to me. But I’m not going to waste my time shooting new tests just to prove what I already know to be the case.

I say that non-SLOG shooing is the best way to use the camera and I have posted plenty of footage that I feel is more than good enough to use in a broadcast-quality production. I have put my footage where my mouth is. So if someone else says S-LOG is better, then I simply ask to see some great looking footage that shows S-LOG at its best on the Z90. It doesn’t even have to be head to head testing (although that would be nice). I just want to see some nice S- LOG footage from the people that who promote its use. Where’s the footage? Simon’s footage sure hasn’t made the case, nor would my own if I posted it.

. I did not upload that "Simon video"....

Did I say you uploaded it? I said you posted it, meaning that you brought it into this conversation in your post. Are we really going to get hung up on semantics now???? I am truly out of this thread. Goodbye. Post whatever you want, call me a name, insult my mother, burn the flag, I don’t care. I am gone and you can have the last word.

Oh, and don’t come up to me next month at NAB and act like this is all good fun and we should have a jolly laugh. I consider this a serious topic and you are wasting my time.

So I sit back and read how this thread has morphed since it started. It's funny how a simple thing like SLog vs Cine profiles on a camera can grow and grow into such a thing like this.

Many of us are very passionate about our experiences with our cameras. It's very NORMAL for passionate people to have vigorous disagreements about the in's and out's of their industry. Take 10,000 mechanics, doctors, lawyers, politicians, economists, or camera guys and get them all each together into their groups and in a very short while they will all be bickering with each other who is smarter than the other or who is wrong or right.

I really, really get it. It would be really weird if we all agreed on everything. Let's face it. Canon guys think Sony sucks. Sony guys think Panasonic sucks. RED guys say Canon, Sony and Panny suck.We all go 'round and around everyday in forums throwing out our opinions,...and we all seem believe we are right and they other guy is wrong. This is perfectly normal and OK.

At the end of the day we are just talking about camera science here. I respect everybody here,...I really really do. Even the guy with 1 post to his name can contribute in the arena of ideas.

I never EVER take anything here personally and certainly will never intentionally insult anybody. I'll be happy to greet anybody here in a convention with a firm handshake and a sincere smile. I dont feel any need to be "believed" here one bit. If somebody tells me: "Cliff, you are wrong about SLog-2...it has zero dynamic range improvements over Cine's" I would say "Awesome!.....do what works for you" and I will shake his/her hand with no problem!

I certainly have ZERO animosity (non whatsoever) for people that disagree with me and I hope we could ALL be that way here.

Unfortunately, I'll probably be at Sony for several hours next month. Doug, I'm perfectly fine to shake your hand but if you prefer, I'll bring a pair of plastic black frame glasses with the rubber mustache and wear that near the ENG cameras section. (You will probably still spot me...just dont give me that "John Wayne" punch! ;-) I think there is a Sony Z-170 coming out so I can't avoid that nearby camera. (The A7S-III is going to be insane if it has 10bit)

John McCully is right, these are not great tests to be doing a serious determination of a camera. However, for what it's worth, (maybe not much!) I graded the SLog-2 file in my Cine/SLog-2 test. I'm going out Miami Beach tomorrow to shoot some drone footage. I'll bring my NX80 and shoot SLog-2 on some bright white boats in the Florida sun and see if I can get some good shots with SLog-2 protecting those bright whites....or maybe it wont???

I'll throw a few graded clips up tomorrow night. Maybe it will be "rubbish", maybe it will be "OK" or maybe it might even be "pretty darn good". Who knows? If there is anybody interested, they will be the ultimate judge. Some might say I was right, some will say I was dead wrong. That is OK, I'm my own judge and every viewer is their own judge. Right?

Either way, I will respect everybody's opinion equally.

CT

John, both of these video are indeed tests of the camera, but granted, not the kind of head to head tests between various settings that you would like to see. But I have done those tightly controlled A vs B tests and S-LOG always comes out the loser. I’m not going to post those tests because they were done with people and locations that didn’t consent to being presented for public display. So someone can either believe me, call me a fool, or just go along their merry way, it makes no difference to me. But I’m not going to waste my time shooting new tests just to prove what I already know to be the case.

I say that non-SLOG shooing is the best way to use the camera and I have posted plenty of footage that I feel is more than good enough to use in a broadcast-quality production. I have put my footage where my mouth is. So if someone else says S-LOG is better, then I simply ask to see some great looking footage that shows S-LOG at its best on the Z90. It doesn’t even have to be head to head testing (although that would be nice). I just want to see some nice S- LOG footage from the people that who promote its use. Where’s the footage? Simon’s footage sure hasn’t made the case, nor would my own if I posted it.

Some more information on Simon's SLog-3 footage - When I said it was underexposed, I was right. I opened his RedShark article and this is what he said:


________________________

"In my test footage below you will notice noise in the lowlights. But this should be taken in context of the user. I played very safe with the exposure, despite knowing that with S-Log3 it is usually best to err on over exposure without clipping to minimise this. This is just a case of using the camera for much longer and testing extensively how much you can get away with. Having said this I do not find the noise to be objectionable. In fact the camera copes very well indeed with high gain settings. Far better than I had expected." - Simon Wyndham
________________________



A couple of things that we know about SLog is that over exposing is a must. The more light you let in the higher the signal to noise ratio goes. This pushes your signal further and further away form the noise floor. We also know that you shouldn't record SLog or VLog any higher than 0db gain. Simon knew he was under exposing and did it to test the noise floor of the camera. This is fine as a "test" but not how this camera performs on "normal" SLog-2 over exposure. This is CRITICAL information by Simon.

I think his notes here and his intentions tell us allot about why his video looks like this. The second I saw the raw parts, I said; "hmmm,...he is under exposing,...big time"

Remember cassette tapes? Remember how we used to record our music levels as hot as we could before tape saturation? Why did we do this? Because we wanted the music to be as far ABOVE the tape hiss (noise floor) that we could possibly get it. What did tapes sound like if your peaks were -10 or 15db under zero? Woof,...hissy and noisy as Hell.

When we shoot in SLog it allows us to open up and bring in MORE light than "non-log" gamma and this allows the Log curve to compress that brightness...but like a cassette recording, we want to get the signal as strong as possible over that noise floor without clipping our wave. The further away your music is from the noise floor, the cleaner your playback is.

It's a good RedShark article. It's important to read his writing BEFORE we judge the video he shot. What he says changes everything about the test. (Yes, I personally would never use SLog-3 on this camera but that just me)

CT

Hold on a second, I need more popcorn...

This is almost as entertaining as watching the NRA go at it with high school students...

Paul

Nah,...this is all much ado about something small.

This is just allot of "passion" on display. Maybe by "both" of us. He believes SLog-2 is rubbish and unusable and I don't agree. I agree it's not spectacular but I do say that it "is" usable if you shoot it right. This is just a 1inch-type sensor, after all.

I always say "1inch-type" sensor because none of these Sony sensors actually measure 1 inch. That is why Sony almost always says" "1inch-type" sensor in their marketing material. That size specification actually refers to old archaic standard measurement for vacuum tube cameras. (long story...but it's NOT 1 inch in actual size)

Anyhoo,...I believe SLog-2 can help with highlight protection and that you "can" use it in certain situations.

If I was recording a rock concert with rapid fire RGB changing lights blasting in all directions and on faces, I would use SLog-2 on this guy with no hesitation. I just shot a couple of some very bright scenes today at the beach. I did a grade tonight and it came out great. I did use light noise reduction and a custom SLog-2 to rec709 800% LUT that I built in LUT Calc.

Will shoot another couple of clips tomorrow and throw them up tomorrow night and anybody can judge for themselves. I over exposed about 2 (roughly) stops without clipping my super whites.

Everybody will judge for themselves. These are clean grades with high contrast and deep color saturation. Surprisingly have not seen any 8bit banding in blue sky. (yet)

CT

Since I only shoot 60P I am interested in how these cameras behave with Slog2 and HLG in 60P. Even though for HDR one should really be in UHD and 10bit !!!

At least the epic 1959 movie BEN-HUR had an intermission......

I wonder if one of us should start a thread specifically on S-Log since it's not clear that's where we've headed given the Title of this thread. New readers aren't likely to know that it's being discussed here and if they begin reading they might run away.

I performed an "I am bored" HLG test the other night...using a dark setting with a bright light in the middle. I shot clips in REC709 and HLG BT2020, imported into FCPX using the proper HDR library settings, but the highlight handling was basically identical. I have no idea what to do with these HLG files, as I have no way to view them on my HDR 4K TV set, and no way to playback 10 bit HDR out of my Macbook or PC. I see the new 2018 Samsung 4K TV's have HLG, maybe those sets would recognize these clips as HDR.

Paul

But don't all these new Sony's shoot UHD in 8 bit, 4:2:0 150Mbps. Does the Z90 shoot HLG HD 4:2:2 10bit ? rec709 and bt2020 would be colour difference the highlights should be the same ?

I’m currently going through withdrawal. Last week I sold the AX100 (*sniff*) with the intention of springing for the NX80. Somewhere I had read that the NX80 was better than the Z90 with regard to … something … related to motion capture. Frame rate? Mbps? Just don’t remember and can’t find the source even though having looked through computer History and did more re-searching. Sitting here now with an itchy trigger finger (If that is politically correct) for a replacement.

The idea was if the NX80 “speed” was better than the Z90, given the trade-off between speed and 10-bit plus $500, tough decision, I would spring for the NX80. Shooting boats on the water needs both speed and capturing the range of highlights to darks.

Don’t need an ENG cam to upload stuff to the internet, and don’t need to shell out $500 for a minimal benefit, but do need another cam. Currently limping along with the AX53 which is a sweetheart of a handy cam, oh, and let’s not forget the iPhone, (*!*) but things just aren’t the same. These three cams are supposed to be the same except for major differences but sometimes there are subtle little differences that aren’t advertised and don’t necessarily pop up on a spec sheet. Any help with this elusive "speed" difference I thought I remembered would be appreciated. Would really hate to get one then discover I really should have got the other.

Craig’s new S-Log thread was a good idea and Paul’s dilemma (#87) may be the next shoe to drop.

I performed an "I am bored" HLG test the other night...using a dark setting with a bright light in the middle. I shot clips in REC709 and HLG BT2020, imported into FCPX using the proper HDR library settings, but the highlight handling was basically identical. I have no idea what to do with these HLG files, as I have no way to view them on my HDR 4K TV set, and no way to playback 10 bit HDR out of my Macbook or PC. I see the new 2018 Samsung 4K TV's have HLG, maybe those sets would recognize these clips as HDR.

Paul

Most 4K TV's of any brand now support HLG, and not just those out in 2018.

Do you have one of these phones?:

The following devices have all confirmed that they support mobile HDR (and HLG) via the YouTube app:

Apple iPhone X
Apple iPhone 8
Apple iPhone 8 Plus
Apple iPad Pro (2nd-gen)
LG G6
LG V30
Razer Phone
Samsung Galaxy S8
Samsung Glaxy S8+
Samsung Galaxy Note 8
Samsung Galaxy S9
Samsung Galaxy S9+
Samsung Galaxy Tab S3
Samsung Galaxy Book
Sony Xperia XZ Premium
Sony Xperia XZ1
Sony Xperia XZ2
Sony Xperia XZ2 Compact

YouTube will automatically play an HLG video in HLG if the device is HLG compatible (it discovers this) and will also convert the HLG video to REC709 and play that version on all other viewing devices. How convenient is that?

It seems that if you distribute your video via YouTube you should always shoot in HLG...

John, for fast past moving subjects, I would guess that 50Mbps of pure 4:2:0 8 bit goodness would allow less compression artifacts over the 10 bit 4:2:2 50Mbps Z90...not sure about high speed framerates though.

Mark, for my HLG testing, tried 4K as well as HD 10 bit 4:2:2. I have an S8 phone, so maybe I will throw a file at it for kicks. When I set FCPX to export out the HLG file in REC709, they look " similar" to the REC709 recordings, just a lot more shadow noise...more noise in general, less contrast...using the FCPX presets at least.

Paul

I’m currently going through withdrawal. Last week I sold the AX100 (*sniff*)



I'm thinking of selling mine too. What did it fetch if you don't mind the question
thanks
Bruce

Paul - thanks for the feedback.
John, for fast past moving subjects, I would guess that 50Mbps of pure 4:2:0 8 bit goodness would allow less compression artifacts over the 10 bit 4:2:2 50Mbps Z90...not sure about high speed framerates though.
Sure wish I could remember where I read about the difference, though. The other concern is about highlights and darks, especially in August, although with global warming now we're seeing fewer grey skies.

Edit: Paul - glad to see you started a new thread "Working with HLG footage" so, hopefully, the FCPX workflow is all sorted out if and when I get there.

Bruce - It was let go for $850 on Craigs List in the afternoon and shortly after had a buyer at the listed price and picked it up the next morning. There was one other AX100 listed for $1,050 so that may have helped. Will continue to use the AX53 a B-cam.
Edit: Currently the AX53 has got a temporary promotion to A-cam status.

After three months of being without an A-cam has been very difficult. Three months of going back and forth about the next cam to get, weighing options, tradeoffs, costs, needs, wants, … and finally couldn’t take it any longer. Had to get something!

The new cam in the quiver, replacing the AX100, is now the AX700. It has a lot of various useful, albeit in some cases minor, upgrades over the AX100. The cumulative effect is there are more control options via a larger menu. One nice item in the box was the Large Eyecup. Never realized how nice this would be but when outdoors in the sunlight this item is absolutely super.

The viewfinder and LCD screens are really sharp. Compared to the AX100 this cam has a lot more heft so won’t be as much of a “handicam”. Audio inputs with XLR cables will be via the JuicedLink pre.

Battery: the NP-FV70A is rated at 1900 mAh vs 1960mAh of the NP-FV70 that is standard with the AX100. What is weird is, even though the 70A has fewer mAh, it is about 6mm taller. Go figure. Wonder what they have inside.

Haven’t had time to really shoot anything with it yet, well, maybe except for maybe a couple minutes worth after getting the battery charged up. Looking forward to doing a shoot with the AX53 as the B-roll cam.

Anton Bauer batteries have been growing in size but with no gain in wattage. The explanation from them is the larger cases allow better heat dissipation during charges, keeping the cells healthier and allowing longer battery life. But maybe Sony just sourced new slightly different cells from Sanyo or something...more likely

Paul

Anton Bauer batteries have been growing in size but with no gain in wattage. The explanation from them is the larger cases allow better heat dissipation during charges, keeping the cells healthier and allowing longer battery life. But maybe Sony just sourced new slightly different cells from Sanyo or something...more likely
Paul

Spacing them out just a little bit makes a lot of sense because the cases do get warm with usage, particularly some usage, even charging, so the heat must have a negative effect on the chemistry and dielectric, and therefor battery life.

The width of the typical battery case is fixed by the cam but the height typically is not so they can "grow" that direction. I was kinda wondering if there was some new circuit board inside to help process battery information but I don't have any old one to take apart to find out. Of course, one would need a NP-FV70 and a 70A version to compare.

As for telling counterfeit apart from the OEM ones, Sony Support told me that only the Sony Repair Center can tell them apart via the green holographic insert on the end of the battery. There is also a manufacturing date written in the lower right corner on the back.

I'd like to thank Doug for the Z90, NX80, AX700 Master Class. I'm upgrading my AX100 to a NX80, and this class made the process painless. I'd recommend this for anyone making that transition.

I agree. Doug's Master Class is a MUST.
Roland

I recently rewatched the chapter on autofocus. The discussion on AF SUBJ. TRACK SET and AF DRIVE SPEED inspired me to play around and really learn when to tweak these. Out of the box, the Z90 has excellent AF with the default values. But when you know before shooting what kind of subject/camera motion you will encounter, AF becomes amazing - far better than I could ever do with manual focus.

Guys, thanks for the nice comments. It means more to me than you'd believe to know that my training videos really do make a difference in helping others get better usage of their cameras. Thanks.