Cast Away - Chuck Noland's Monologue - YouTube

However, I don't like using dollies, cause in the past, they would always have vibration, even in the slightest which can ruin a shot. It's cause the tracks go down to the floor, but perhaps there is a method, where the tracks do not go down to the floor and therefore no vibration? Like some sort of slider or a gimbal, if that can do it, or will that just not have the same look to the movement, if I use one of those options instead?

I already know a gimbal operator but I find that when it comes to doing very slow movements, the gimbal does not seem to as smooth for those, unless I'm wrong?

Nothing wrong with tracking shots, or ped moves when done with the usual rules.

Decent kit, used on
Decent level support.
Performed by decent people.

In practice, this means that you use a proper studio floor, with studio pedestals. If the floor isn't up to it then you use track, put down by people who understand physics and can lay it level.

Lightweight anything is almost universally bad - so even with the floor/track level, you need a decent head to do the pans.

Remember that sliders and gimbals are relatively new inventions for movie making. Track shots, however have been around since the dawn of the movie and TV industry, and the only reason they wobble is because somebody didn't do the job properly.

You can lay track on bumpy grass in the pit of a festival event and the movement is smooth - because it's done properly.

If you are really saying "I have a $100 tripod with a bodged up running board on my neighbour's children's plastic train track", then give up now. If you cannot afford the right grip kit, then you either innovate, or scrap the shot.

In the studio you might have to ped left, raise the camera and tilt down at the same time as zooming in. Perfectly possible with a bit of practice and the right kit. Ask the same cameraman to do it with a rolling tripod and cheap head on a plain concrete floor and he fails.

Improvise could mean something as simple as a mobility scooter with soft tires and drive disengaged and people pushing while you operate from the side. You could hire one if you can't find a disabled person to loan it to you. if the steering is set to a tighter curve, then you may not even need to pan at all.

Oh okay thanks. I've tried the whole wheel chair thing too, like some suggested, but it makes noise while recording dialogue, so I would want something that is made to be silent.

Really? Wrong tyres then. Even a shopping trolley works pretty well if you can fight the casters!

Seriously though - if you can't sort it with improvisation, then it's a hire isn't it!

Yep okay. Well I already have access to a gimbal operator, so would a gimbal work for that as well with just more practice, or are gimbals not the best for slow movement?

Kcan your gimbal operator hold the gimbal absolutely the same height for what, 60 seconds to three minutes, and repeat this maybe three or four times? I doubt it. I can't. Gimbals allow fast fluid movement of the operator in 3 dimensions of travel with 3 dimensions of camera movement within the physical space.

You want horizontal movement only in an arc, very slowly keeping a constant distance. Totally different and the wrong tool.

Okay thanks. So gimbals are better for faster movement, where as dollies are good for slower movement, in most cases?

Ryan - we're doing it again?

Gimbals are a relatively new device designed, in a similar way to steadicams, to give smooth movement from an operator who is walking, turning, going up and down stairs - that kind of thing. Dollies are good for different types of movement. Heavier or larger cameras and lenses, operator efficiency and multi-person operation.

Gimbals are good at some things, but dreadful for others. Dollies can move in precise, controlled paths that can be reset and repeated. gimbals tend to be used on wider angle lens settings, where their small movements left, right and up and down are not so obvious. Most cannot, for example, do a very slow pan without jerking. Dollies cannot suddenly speed up and run after the actor.

Like most things - it's choosing the most appropriate tool for the job.

Okay thanks. Would a dolly be better for this camera move then? It's the move at 1:10 in the trailer, when the camera is going around the close up of the actor's face:

The Chaser Official Trailer 2008 - YouTube

I would need a telephoto lens for that I am guessing so would a dolly be the right equipment for that move then?

2 seconds? I could do that with my camera on my shoulder! I suspect that's a tiny clip of a longer steadicam shot.

Try to stop obsessing on what other people do. Clearly we've established you never have any budget for your projects, so you need to find methods you can use, rather than other people? Are you a one man band? Doing sound, lighting and cameras? Do you have a pool of equipment? maybe a hand held gimbal with a GoPro, or an iPhone on a stick? Maybe a huge cine style camera on a Miller?

Does it matter? You just need a technique you can practice and repeat.

Ryan - you need to stop and think how YOU would approach it.

You said at the top your experience is that dollies and track vibrate. This is like your recent shotgun topic = we don't recognise the things you have written in stone. We disagree with your conclusions, and I suspect that what is happening is you have no skills in an area, try it out, perhaps copying what you see other people do, and it goes wrong - so you reject the process itself as flawed, when it's operator error.

Proper dollies are designed to NOT wobble. If they do, something went wrong. No hand held device will be as solid as a dolly. Dollies, however, are by design difficult or impractical for some shots, so you try a steadicam. however, if we strapped one onto you, your next topic would be Steadicams are no good and wobble and twist, will a hand held gimbal do better. you'd tell us that your experience of them was bad.

Sometimes, you have to put effort into learning and developing physical practical skills. Nothing ever comes free. No product gives first time users excellent performance. Every single topic seems to blame equipment. Can you see the trend in your posts. You want it all. You want it now, and you want it with NO effort, in no time.

I wrote a similar reply but refrained from hitting the post button. It’s a repeat of his last thread but instead of mic booming we’ve moved on to dollying.

His threads could be summed up as “I having trouble replicating a scene made by a movie studio with a million dollar budget...” It’s analogous to buying an expensive pastry and trying to figure out how to recreate it without the skill, knowledge, equipment or money.

He most likely only has access to a gimbal and that’s what he will end up using.

This is definitely a Steadicam shot.

Oh really, I'd be surprised if it was a steadicam shot. I was thinking of getting a tripod dolly for the shots, like the ones made by proaim, but I was told by a couple of others I asked to not waste my time and that they are not smooth enough, but is that true?

Somewhere in my store I have an old device very similar, and it's rubbish - except in locations with perfect floors. In the studios with epoxy or hard vinyl level floors they work fine. The real problems are the small size of the wheels and the hard tyres. The larger casters on my vinten portaped work well on parquet or modern timber floors. However, because of the unpredictable action of freewheeling casters you need to plan directions and preset the things. The physics of the system need considering too. Small base, high head produces exaggeration of floor imperfections. A 1mm bump in the floor migh produce a camera lens deflection of 5mm, that with a long lens, can be a big bump.

Bigger casters, flight case style, attached to a much larger platform made from a couple of ¾" layers of plywood would be very sturdy, and with a decent tripod and head, much more stable.

Is the proaim good? Yes. Will it produce stable shots on a poor floor? No. Will a novice cameraman find it easy to use, no.

I'd make one. The cost is insignificant. If you were local you could borrow mine, personally, I'd not miss it!

Consumer/hobbiest camera support is good for learning about camera movement and sometimes gets the shot you want.

But mostly this lightweight and affordable gear is hard to control, hard to avoid vibration & wobbles, and depends less on mass and good bearings and depends more on perfect conditions and a muscular operator who is very good, working in near-ideal conditions, *and* very lucky.

Steadicam - there are many in the under-$1000 range. The good stuff that repeatedly gets good shots with a good operator and cameras that weigh over 2 lbs. starts at around $3000 and quickly goes up from there with camera weight. And, you need a *practiced* operator. Most productions will hire a specialist and gear, rather than just renting gear for their camera operator.

Dolly - as inexpensive as $60 for tripod wheels, such are useful for moving a camera between shots. Up into the low-mid hundreds, you can frequently get a good shot on a perfect floor. $2200 gets you into an MSE Doorway Dolly that gives you 3-person operation (cam op, focus puller, dolly grip) that you need for repeatable results, that has good wheels for many smooth-ish surfaces, and, offers optional track wheels so that it can be rigged anywhere.

Jib - inexpensive jibs are kind of like inexpensive dollies, they can be useful for the occasional overhead shot, but, any camera movement during a shot depends on waiting as the vibration of the boom settles down. And then a move starts it vibrating again. The good jibs start at about $2500.

Does the director have good monitoring for these shots? Might need a wireless link... If the director can’t know what the shot looks like as it’s happening then you don’t have the shot.

There is a substantial culture of marketing cheap camera support that tells us we can create cinematic experience, screen at festivals, and realize our dreams if only we’d buy, buy, buy semi-affordable gear.

That’s not how the working pros do it. They rent, and, they rent the good stuff. If you happen to be working far from the larger cities with rental houses that means shipping, or, adding a cam support order to the grip truck and driver you booked for your shoot.

Pros also plan on any such shot taking 4 times as long to shoot... or more, or much more!

Okay thanks, I've tried renting before, but the store is always booked up for weeks and shoot dates change a lot, so I haven't been able to depend on the stores because of that.

The stores have dollies, but no jibs. A jib might work to get that type of move I want but it would have to be rather large, and so would the location to support it. I am guessing a dolly may be better but not sure.

I thought about getting a tripod dolly, like the ones made by proaim, but I was told that they do not do well with smoothness, even with track underneath if that's true.

So maybe the best thing to do is either get that or a jib.

Ryan you've got your blinkers on again. A dolly will work if the floor is good. If it isn't, then the added cost and effort of track is bad. Plus, do you have the time and patience to practice. It's damn hard work to get the coordination. A jib will NOT do the same thing. The centre of movement would need to be on the inside. To move the camera in a circle around the actor means the pivot needs to be inside the circle!

Why do you always want to do things you can't do? You never have money, you never seem willing to put any work into your projects but you demand perfection or the collection of new skills instantly. We suggest workarounds and you just ignor them.

For goodness sake. Borrow a shopping trolley. Sit in it and get somebody to push you!!! Why would you buy something you will only use once because next week, you'll want to buy lights? I've pushed cameras on post trolleys, luggage trucks, even once a kiddies battery operated car. You're just making excuses. People are telling you sensible things and for some reason, you ignore them. I don't know why you ask if you are never ever going to take advice from people who have done these things. Ask your friends again, they'll suggest more crazy impractical things. Just think and improvise. If you need a tracking shot, then create it. Have you even bothered to try any of the ideas people have suggested. If you have money to waste buy the rolling skid from proaim. Don't then come back and ask us how to make it go in the right direction, because without considerable practice, they don't. I expect tha another new topic.

It does seem that we are putting more effort into your projects than you do!

Okay thanks, sorry I will try to be more open to work arounds. I tried the shopping trolley before, but when you move it, it makes noise, that is picked up by the microphone. That is why I wasn't open to DIY solutions cause then ones I tried before, would make noise, so I thought maybe I could use something professional, cause I figured it would be made to be quiet then.

At the risk of keeping the circus going--again, that's why you have to evaluate what you actually have available in terms of money, equipment, etc., and work around it, which really means WRITING around it. Can't do a smooth dolly move and can't live with a janky one? Then no dolly move for you. That may also mean no gimbal move or anything of the sort. Rewrite the scene or rethink the visual approach to it. That's all there is to it. In other words, you may simply not be able to make the movie in your head right now. We low budget indie guys all face this. You have to compromise (sometimes severely), abandon the project and tackle something you have the resources to do (write stories around what people/locations/gear you have available), or find real funding to make your dream movie. Those are the choices.

I have done this type of shot with the cameraman sitting in a wheel chair with the camera on his shoulder. The shot can be stabilized in post if needed. This is what the Hollywood boys use. https://products.msegrip.com/collections/dollies-track. You can see the similarities to a cart you can buy at Harbor Freight for a lot less money. If it squeaks use some lubricant on the wheels.

Okay thanks. That dolly looks like it has wheels that handle shock absorption so maybe I can do something like that, with such wheels. A wheelchair or shopping cart might work, if I can get rid of the noise, so I can try oil.

Also, I can use the gimbal since we already have one to compromise as well. Even though the gimbal is not as leveled in height, perhaps it's still better than nothing, as a compromise...

You can rent anything you want from rental companies, go to a larger or more comprehensively equipped rental company. These people are used to renting out kit at short notice for commercials and music videos , so it not being available at short notice is just the people you're dealing with, many have arrangements with other rental companies if they need to hire in.

You don't get vibrations from good dollies, depending on the model they have jib arms.

Cinema Verde Productions Dolly Track Demo - YouTube

You can use less expensive dollies on tracks, eg a Doorway dolly.

BTW these can have pneumatic wheels fitted, so you can track on a relatively smooth surface.

Use the right kit for the shots, although you may not be able to afford one of these:

Film & Video Grip Equipment: The Hybrid 4 Camera Dolly at Chapman UK - YouTube

I hope this thread isn't going to go around in circles( which you can also do on a dolly).

I was shopping this afternoon and had a shopping trolley - so did hundreds of other people. None made any noise a microphone could capture. I'm not quite sure what part makes a noise that oil would cure. Probably just British shopping trolleys are silent, and US one clanky. Although something tells me that just isn't the case. Your AST mic can't be boomed because it makes funny noises and it can't be used near a shopping trolley either? Wow! The list of things this mic can't do is growing. I rather like the wheelchair idea - you could mount a monopod to it for a little height. Improvised kit always stays in my head for future use.

For what it's worth I discovered a year or so back that if your location has rough concrete - like many factory screeded floors, you can do smooth camera movement with a jib on a rolling tripod. I have an very old Vinten Dolphin arm on a Vinten OB tripod with 4" wheels and if you shoot with the jib arm horizontal, the weight of the arm balanced really smooths out the vibration as the wheels jiggle over the rough floor.

There are industrial trolleys/dollies that can be converted into a camera dolly. Or, if someone has some engineering ability, you can buy the wheels and build a basic platform dolly.

https://www.ajproducts.co.uk/warehouse-industry/handling-lifting/transport-trolleys/461670.wf

https://www.ajproducts.co.uk/warehouse-industry/handling-lifting/castor-wheels/459451.wf

Here's a DIY doorway dolly for some ideas

DIY Doorway Dolly - YouTube

Also

Doorway Dolly and track - YouTube

Even more low budget

How to Build a Dolly Track for $50 (Cinematography Hacks) | Filmmaking Tips - YouTube

Loading the shopping trolley with some sandbags should dampen down any vibrations..

This is a trolley
Mister Rogers' Neighborhood: Model Trolley and Big Trolley - YouTube

No this is a trolley.
https://www.abis-uk.com/getmetafile/97004623-f9e3-441d-b07a-617c1dc5dafd/ST210_web?maxsidesize=680
so is this
https://cdn-01.media-brady.com/store/stuk/media/catalog/product/d/m/dmeu_mha284_1_std.lang.all.jpg

but this

http://picturesofgateshead.co.uk/postcards_trams1/ophg3w.jpg

is a tram.

Further translations can be found here:

https://www.spellzone.com/blog/Sixty_American_English_Words_and_their_British_English_Counterparts.htm

Be real careful with that $50 dolly design...I built some similar and it squeaked on pvc pipe (for track) in a way that made it unusable for sound. Was told by others (ha, where have we heard THAT phrase) it was a design flaw (though I dont remember what the flaw was—-wheel softness, pvc track, the whole design?) and would never be silent without a redesign.

One of the other easily usable things we often have to hand are flight cases. Very handy to use for cameras. They get the lens at sensible heights, they're sturdy enough to be used for this kind of purpose. The only tricky thing being that they have 4 casters that move. On my own home made bodges over the years two fixed casters at the front and two normal ones at the rear work rather well for moving cameras.

Ryan - you said you'd had issues trying this out. What kind of shots went wrong with the tracks you tried. I've been thinking about noise. I cannot remember any times where noise was a problem. The usual issues were all to do with movement. Going the wrong way, or jerky, or unwanted vertical movement. If you have a gimbal - getting your shot must be doable?

Grips use WD40 for those track squeaks on metal tracks.

There are harder and softer wheels/casters available, the softer ones tending to be quieter. A google search will reveal different suppliers of quieter wheels and their characteristics.

Baby powder and Pledge are also used quietening wheels on tracks.

This product looks interesting for a lower budget dolly system, Long Valley Equipment | products (http://www.longvalleyequip.com/dolly.php) There's a home build version, for which they supply the hardware.

Ryan's done his usual thing and ducked out, getting ready to start another topic on a different subject.

The good thing though, is that these big topics will probably help other people as there is plenty of useful information in it (and the others)

Ryan's done his usual thing and ducked out, getting ready to start another topic on a different subject.

The good thing though, is that these big topics will probably help other people as there is plenty of useful information in it (and the others)
crane shot? special effects? green screen? rotoscoping? drone? lighting?

It’s funny at the start of these threads I’m thinking to myself here we go again but by the end someone has posted something interesting.

Btw I saw an animated gif of a crash zoom and I thought of Ryan
https://media0.giphy.com/media/IX89WTEnYgvM4/giphy.gif

I already know a gimbal operator but I find that when it comes to doing very slow movements, the gimbal does not seem to as smooth for those, unless I'm wrong?

One of the smoothest combos is to use a gimbal combined with a jib. A la so or so or with a compact but with 65 cm of movement double action slider:

MoVI Methods // MoVI Jib for Interviews on Vimeo

watch the video on this page:

https://www.haguecamerasupports.com/tracking-dolly-systems/hague-camslide-reach-500-camera-slider

Chris Young

Chris - is anything weird with the video file - I'm getting warnings and now a blank screen on my Mac - it made me install an update, then still won't play it?

No no Vimeo problems here Paul? Just tried the link again and all is good with Vimeo this end.

Also have a look at the double action Hague unit, a UK product. Just added it to my post.

https://www.haguecamerasupports.com/tracking-dolly-systems/hague-camslide-reach-500-camera-slider

Chris Young

Cheers Chris - the link works fine, ta!

I'm trying to think what I could do to produce that quite specific look without a parallel tracking slider. I wonder if I could replicate the effect with a jib and very careful panning? If we het the heat wave next week, I might try some of the junk laying around my house and see if any function as a smooth tracking system.

For the 2nd time, that is a Steadicam shot. You can find the operator who did it on the Steadicam Operators Association site and ask him yourself.

I suspect in this thread there's less of how a shot was originally filmed and more about other methods, especially using Ryan's limited equipment options.

It doesn't look like a Steadicam shot to me (unless it's hard mounted on a dolly), more likely a dolly or other camera mount. There are a number of ways to shoot it, but a dolly on a circular track would be the most simple.

A bit off topic but I am sorely tempted by this slider. Multi Slider, the fact that it is bendable, smallish, portable and super flexible gets me for sure. Not cheap but take a look at the video on this page:

https://www.waterbird.at/update-blog/7-range-of-use

Home page here:

https://www.diyphotography.net/multi-slider-worlds-first-bendable-camera-slider/

Interview here:

https://www.diyphotography.net/multi-slider-worlds-first-bendable-camera-slider/

Chris Young

For the 2nd time, that is a Steadicam shot. You can find the operator who did it on the Steadicam Operators Association site and ask him yourself.

I’m glad you said that. Thought my judgement was going!!

Unless there was a lack of space, I would go for a dolly over a Steadicam for a very slow 180 degree shot like that as much as I enjoyed doing slow dolly style shots with a Steadicam.

Regardless, the skill levels required are way beyond what Ryan and his crew are currently capable of with a Steadicam or seemingly equipped for.

Another thought regarding the Steadicam in this case is the operator's shadow on a sitting subject. The operator will usually be standing, so restricting the lighting on the subject during a 180 degree shot if you wish to avoid casting their shadow at some point during the move.

I'll admit I didn't spend much time on this, but I took the camera today and tried some 'bodged' tracking shots. No messing, no speed changes, no stabilisation - just pressed record. One indoors, one outside.

https://vimeo.com/user616661/review/345297177/cea46d8751

Adding some weight to the buggy (eg sand bag(s)) would probably smooth things out a bit more with those slow moves. A bit of inertia assists in keeping the speed constant.

The floor is not remotely flat and I wondered about shooting fast frame rate and slowing it but the point I think is that there are ways ryan could have tried but he gave up!

Planks or sheeting are good for less than smooth floors.

I’m glad you said that. Thought my judgement was going!!

Thanks, Paul. If you actually watched the movie you would see it is 95% shot with a Steadicam just like so many other movies. Steadicam moves are very organic because they depend on Physics not technology. But what do I know?

Maybe so, but that particular Castaway shot looks more like a dolly shot than Steadicam shot. That's not to say you couldn't use a Steadicam, but you may be into using it with a gyro for the slow speed and longer focal length lens and a highly skilled operator. A dolly would be the easiest method of doing that shot.

Given the discussion, it would still be beyond the skill level of Ryan's crew if they had a Steadicam, plus the thread is about how he could do that type of shot with their kit.