View Full Version : "best 4K Professional Camcorder" for events


Erick Perdomo
September 27th, 2019, 11:46 PM
hi there...I did a search but didn't find a recent thread on this subject...I want to upgrade from my HD Canon XF300 to a similar camera-smaller perhaps but with 3 dedicated rings for focus/zoom/aperture, XLR connectors, 2 cards for relay recording, good footage in low light and of course 4k recording...asking for the world I know...
of course I use smaller cameras for some sections in weddings and other events but this would be for concerts, dance recitals, wedding ceremonies. Any suggestions that won't break the bank.
I can't afford the Canon XF705...
if there is a recent thread on this pls pls direct me to it.

thanks
E

Nigel Barker
September 28th, 2019, 12:54 AM
Maybe the Sony HXR-NX100 is what you are looking for? It's the Pro version of the excellent FDR-AX100 with 1" sensor & three control rings & a fraction of the cost of an XF705.

Pete Cofrancesco
September 28th, 2019, 06:09 AM
The two main competitors in this space is Panasonic and Sony. I use the Panasonic UX90. The main advantages is that it’s the best value and lowest price in this category, has all the basic features needed for event work and has long enough lens for theater work. Panasonic offers more expensive models with features like 60p if slow motion is important.

The competitor to Panasonic UX series is the Sony Z150. The main difference is it’s more expensive, has a shorter lens, but can record 10bit HD.

Generally speaking the image quality and low light performance will be similar to cameras in this category, the more expensive models offer broadcast features or higher frame rates. There are also many other models in this category that are smaller and lighter good for hand held work but their lens are too short for theater work. One other thing to note all the builtin lens for these 1” sensor camcorders are slow variable apertures in order to keep the size and price down.

Chris Harding
September 28th, 2019, 06:53 AM
Any special reason you suddenly want a 4K camera ..Are you planning to use it in conjunction with your 1080 cameras and render down to 1080. If you are going to use, edit and supply 4K footage of events then you also need to make sure your editing computer can handle UHD formats without stuttering and also can parents actually play 4K footage??? I have two cameras with 4K format built-in as well as 1080 and honestly as stunning as the clarity is, it's a HUGE pain to edit and I end up rendering down anyway so I don't use it any more. Just being practical!

Pete Cofrancesco
September 28th, 2019, 08:08 AM
Good point. I use 4k for unattended cameras, allowing me to frame the subject with space around them and then have the option to recompose or crop in. But if your computer struggles with 4k and you need to transcode to an uncompressed format like ProRes your jaw will drop when that 50gb file becomes 500gb, let alone the time it takes to encode. So yeah I only film 4k when I really need to.

Doug Jensen
September 28th, 2019, 08:20 AM
Just a quick comment about 4K.
In my experience, most of the time when I hear people say their computer can't handle 4K smoothly it is because of their drives -- and not the computer itself. Make sure you are using a fast external drive (preferably an SSD) with a fast connection (preferably thunderbolt) before upgrading to a new computer or throwing the towel in on 4K. I'm constantly amazed at the slow external drives people are using and still expecting pro-level performance, or even worse, how many people are putting video files on the same internal drive as the OS.

My camera suggestions for shooting events would be the Sony Z280 or Z150.

Erick Perdomo
September 28th, 2019, 05:02 PM
Any special reason you suddenly want a 4K camera ..Are you planning to use it in conjunction with your 1080 cameras and render down to 1080. If you are going to use, edit and supply 4K footage of events then you also need to make sure your editing computer can handle UHD formats without stuttering and also can parents actually play 4K footage??? I have two cameras with 4K format built-in as well as 1080 and honestly as stunning as the clarity is, it's a HUGE pain to edit and I end up rendering down anyway so I don't use it any more. Just being practical!

I have been editing 4k footage taken with a Sony a6400 and then rendering to 1080p and the results are very nice-also being able to reframe a bit is great but you're right that once I have 2 or more 4k video tracks my system will have issues...argh..
the XF300 (I also have a XF100-and I learned how to use the xf300 from a video I bought from Doug Jensen a long time ago! thanks!) is still a great machine as long as I don't use over 6db gain-I use a modified picture profile with some noise reduction-but as soon as lighting gets lower there are issues...I bring out my C100 mk2 then! I know and even the a6400 is great with a sigma 16mmf1.4 lens but they are not events cameras really and I'm thinking of upgrading to a 4k ENG type camera similar to the XF300 and perhaps use the 4k as the main camera and the XF300 as B camera on a 1080p timeline. Maybe I'm suffering from a case of "upgraditis" or whatever is called! I have been mostly happy with the XF300-It doesnt produce beautiful video like a C100 mk2 with a good lens but it's reliable for conferences, and live events and with decent light is great (the XF100 is very portable and ok in good lighting-terrible in low light) anyway...I'm only exploring the possibilities. I google the topic and some suggestions came up but checking B&H reviews I discover that many verified buyers felt that some of those newer 4k cameras were terrible in low light -they needed to increase gain so much and others felt that AF wasn't very good. I realize that the tiny sensors in the XF300 help keep things in focus better. I will check the suggestions you have all provided and decide...not an urgent plan yet. The truth is no client of mine as asked me for 4k deliverables yet. Thanks so much

Erick Perdomo
September 28th, 2019, 05:09 PM
Just a quick comment about 4K.
In my experience, most of the time when I hear people say their computer can't handle 4K smoothly it is because of their drives -- and not the computer itself. Make sure you are using a fast external drive (preferably an SSD) with a fast connection (preferably thunderbolt) before upgrading to a new computer or throwing the towel in on 4K. I'm constantly amazed at the slow external drives people are using and still expecting pro-level performance, or even worse, how many people are putting video files on the same internal drive as the OS.

My camera suggestions for shooting events would be the Sony Z280 or Z150.

thanks so much! When I first got the XF300 I purchased your DVD training course! Thanks so much...a few years back and the XF300 has been a reliable event/concert camera for sure.
I have an imac i7 2014 maxed up! the top of the line then and the drives are thunderbolt but I'm sure that once I have a few 4k video tracks things will slow down....hmm...
I think what I want the most is a ENG camera with better than the XF300 low light capabilities which made me think of a 4k camera so that the sensor is bigger and also for "future proof" is there is such a thing...
I have tried using my C100 mk2 with a good zoom lens for concerts but sometimes the music is so loud, the bass so strong that the lens shakes a bit-something the XF300 handles a lot better and also the XF300 has a proper 20x zoom! amazing...also keeping things in focus is not as easy with a large sensor- I shoot in f4 or higher and I push the iso (the C100 is amazing!) but nope...I'd rather have a dedicated camera ENG type for those events (or for ceremonies in weddings etc)...
I can survive with the XF300 but I would like a better ENG type camera (under 5 lbs or less) for low light (not darkness!) and 4k for future proof... thanks for the suggestions. I will google them!

Erick Perdomo
September 28th, 2019, 05:12 PM
Maybe the Sony HXR-NX100 is what you are looking for? It's the Pro version of the excellent FDR-AX100 with 1" sensor & three control rings & a fraction of the cost of an XF705.

thanks so much for the suggestion...I will google the suggestions and check reviews...I'm ok for now with the "vintage" XF300/XF100! (I don't care about the XF400 at all and the XF705 is out of my budget)

thanks
E

Erick Perdomo
September 28th, 2019, 05:13 PM
The two main competitors in this space is Panasonic and Sony. I use the Panasonic UX90. The main advantages is that it’s the best value and lowest price in this category, has all the basic features needed for event work and has long enough lens for theater work. Panasonic offers more expensive models with features like 60p if slow motion is important.

The competitor to Panasonic UX series is the Sony Z150. The main difference is it’s more expensive, has a shorter lens, but can record 10bit HD.

Generally speaking the image quality and low light performance will be similar to cameras in this category, the more expensive models offer broadcast features or higher frame rates. There are also many other models in this category that are smaller and lighter good for hand held work but their lens are too short for theater work. One other thing to note all the builtin lens for these 1” sensor camcorders are slow variable apertures in order to keep the size and price down.

thanks so much for the advice. So much to consider now that cameras use larger sensors...I guess finding one with 20x zoom may not be as easy...on a budget!
E

Chris Harding
September 28th, 2019, 06:37 PM
Sadly what happens is we all suffer from "updateisis" but we are also our worst critics too. We want the best gear and a perfect result in our own eyes while the clients often would be more than happy with an SD copy on DVD and be delighted with the content because that's what they are looking at, content yet we fuss over exposure, contrast and indulge in the art of "pixel peeping" ... It actually totally un-necessary but we all do it because we are videographers and probably tech heads as well. I will guarantee that 99 out of 100 people would never notice a crop from 1080 instead of 4K because, unlike us, they are purely looking at the content and delighting in it.

Worth thinking about before you replace all your cameras with 4K units and put SSD drives in your computers because there WILL be a time when you are going to be looking at 8K gear and the cycle starts again. Like editing, there also comes a time when you have to stop and say "OK, that's good enough"

Pete Cofrancesco
September 28th, 2019, 07:30 PM
thanks so much for the advice. So much to consider now that cameras use larger sensors...I guess finding one with 20x zoom may not be as easy...on a budget!
E

UX90 25.4 to 367.5mm, 15x
Ux180 25.4 to 508mm, 20x

Erick Perdomo
September 28th, 2019, 09:11 PM
thanks Pete!
I will do some research!
E

Nigel Barker
September 29th, 2019, 04:04 AM
Reading all these replies I realised that I am well out of touch with current video cameras. The newer Sony & Panasonic 1" models look great. I've not read or posted here for about six months but am glad to see the same names are still around. Hi, guys!

Chris Harding
September 29th, 2019, 05:29 AM
Hi Nigel

I'm cutting down drastically as weddings have almost become non economically viable with operators offering free travelling, free drone footage, multiple cameramen all at a price I can hardly believe. I really don't know how they survive as they spend a fortune on gear yet cut their prices.

I'm still doing the odd wedding for referrals mainly out of courtesy but I must admit I'm getting tired of the long hours so I stick with ceremonies mainly. My main income has become funeral services and burials..either recorded or live streamed (usually both) They have unique advantages to weddings! The start is ALWAYS on time (unlike brides happy to be up to an hour late), they pay better, they are during the week and during the day so I get my weekends back and last but not least they are super easy 1 camera non creative shoots with a tripod and dolly ... As old age creeps upwards is has been a good way to diversify ... Dunno about the UK but here we have around 100 funerals a week in the metro area so it's a easy market! What are you up to????

Nigel Barker
September 29th, 2019, 07:08 AM
Hi Chris,

I last filmed/photographed a wedding just over five years ago. Can't say I miss it much. The work involved for the rewards (particularly video) just isn't worth it as most couples simply aren't prepared to pay what the job is worth.

I sold all my Canon cameras (5DIIs & 5DIIIs) & lenses but slowly have accumulated more. The Sony RX100M6 with 24-200mm FF equivalent lens is a pocket-sized marvel but I mostly use it for photography. I got a used Nikon D810 at a great price & have accumulated a range of lenses for it but after the third holiday I have taken the rucksack full of gear & not used it once I am considering selling it all. The images are potentially gorgeous but frankly I am happy with the convenience of a pocket-sized camera that is with me most of the time that produces far better images than I ever got with 35mm film.

I recently traded in my Sony RX10M4 (amazing 24-600mm FF equivalent zoom but generally the 200mm of the RX100M6 is enough) & bought a used Olympus OM-D E-M1 II at a great price as the new V3 firmware update now makes it a cracking hybrid video/stills camera. It weighs a fraction what the Nikon FF gear does & produces lovely images too. I'll likely trade in the Nikon & get a couple more MFT lenses like the 7-14mm UWA & a Fisheye that no 1" sensor camera has for when I want to "do photography". The IBIS is sensational & AF-C as good as a proper video camcorder so it let's me shoot odd bits of video now. Alternatively I could get a FF Nikon Z7 which is barely bigger than the OM-D & use my Nikon lenses with an adapter.

I'm enjoying my cameras while not having to make money with them. I returned to my old profession after a 30-year break & now have a late flowering career that is both satisfying & intellectually stimulating while also well paid. I was even doing a big exam on my 65th birthday. I'll be working for a few more years yet but reducing my hours a bit before I fully retire.

Chris Harding
September 29th, 2019, 08:05 AM
Funny how you can enjoy something a LOT more when it's not a professional gig!! The market here just got more and more complex with less and less reward ..I'm semi retired now so I get a pension payment based on what extra I earn. It's nice cos I can do just what keeps me busy and still gives me some pleasure time too!!

Because my pleasure time is kayaking I can't take my normal Lumix cameras so I found one of the compact models that are the FT2 series which are both shockproof and waterproof to 10m which is ideal for photos on the water where the camera doesn't mind a dunking now and again or even some underwater footage.

We are headed into Summer here so I can start looking at a bit of snorkelling and underwater footage soon!!

Pete Cofrancesco
September 29th, 2019, 10:04 AM
I filmed a wedding last week and it was very difficult, the amount time, the physical and mental stress. I spent a lot of time selecting the right equipment and planning out my approach but many of the shots I had planned couldn't be done due to time constraints and circumstances out of my control. Ended up running round all day getting getting half baked results. I should be able pull together a decent highlight but the whole process was exhausting and frustrating. If I had limited myself to only the ceremony/reception I would have been better off but I wanted to do something more creative. So yeah another vote for no more weddings.

David Barnett
September 29th, 2019, 11:25 AM
Sadly what happens is we all suffer from "updateisis" but we are also our worst critics too. We want the best gear and a perfect result in our own eyes while the clients often would be more than happy with an SD copy on DVD and be delighted with the content because that's what they are looking at, content yet we fuss over exposure, contrast and indulge in the art of "pixel peeping" ... It actually totally un-necessary but we all do it because we are videographers and probably tech heads as well. I will guarantee that 99 out of 100 people would never notice a crop from 1080 instead of 4K because, unlike us, they are purely looking at the content and delighting in it.

Worth thinking about before you replace all your cameras with 4K units and put SSD drives in your computers because there WILL be a time when you are going to be looking at 8K gear and the cycle starts again. Like editing, there also comes a time when you have to stop and say "OK, that's good enough"

That's an interesting point. While I don't recall there being a 'Bomb!' low light DV/SD camera, if there was, it would be interesting if someone still show on it & produced good results. The original Sony a7s, released in I think 2013 is an interesting thought. One could still be giving great wedding videos on a 6-7 year old camera & no look to upgrade anytime soon.


To the OP's question, Sony Z90 is a pretty good 4K camera for around $2500. Have you looked into Canon equivalents?

Chris Harding
September 29th, 2019, 07:50 PM
It's the same with mountain climbers! There climb it because it's there and the moment a new improved camera is released we have an uncontrollable desire to upgrade whether we need to or not. I honestly cannot count how many times I have upgraded my cameras. Even at the stage where I'm considering cutting down on gigs and having more free time for myself, when a new version is announced I'm there credit card in hand. Hope you find something that suits you Erick and it streamlines your operation! Good luck!

Erick Perdomo
September 30th, 2019, 12:00 AM
That's an interesting point. While I don't recall there being a 'Bomb!' low light DV/SD camera, if there was, it would be interesting if someone still show on it & produced good results. The original Sony a7s, released in I think 2013 is an interesting thought. One could still be giving great wedding videos on a 6-7 year old camera & no look to upgrade anytime soon.


To the OP's question, Sony Z90 is a pretty good 4K camera for around $2500. Have you looked into Canon equivalents?

amazing experiences shared in this thread...beyond the cameras...thanks for sharing your personal experiences working as videographers/photographers in your countries. I'm 50 and I do weddings part time so I'm not overwhelmed yet! But running a full time video/photo biz would be exhausting...There are so many new videographers coming into the market for sure-many are gifted for sure (I'm a bit envious! a bit!) and others not so much but they sure know how to talk biz. So much to consider about the biz. Technology changes a lot for sure. I looked at a couple of the suggestions for a camcorder and I was surprised to come across some reviews from actual owner who feel that the 1inch cameras 4k are not vastly superior in low light to something like my reliable XF300. I was expecting a lot more of a jump. But to be honest, I may try to rent a couple of cameras and just test for myself. For now I'm ok with staying with my canon XF cameras. Thanks guys for taking the time to answer and for sharing your experiences...Life is all about experiences...

Erick Perdomo
September 30th, 2019, 12:03 AM
It's the same with mountain climbers! There climb it because it's there and the moment a new improved camera is released we have an uncontrollable desire to upgrade whether we need to or not. I honestly cannot count how many times I have upgraded my cameras. Even at the stage where I'm considering cutting down on gigs and having more free time for myself, when a new version is announced I'm there credit card in hand. Hope you find something that suits you Erick and it streamlines your operation! Good luck!

Thanks Chris. I looked at the Panny UX180 and it looks good. Although a few reviewers had an issue with its low light performance and the "substandard" 1080p performance...hmm...that's their opinion but I for sure need SOLID 1080p...better than my XF300 if possible...and better low light...otherwise no point in upgrading...I may see if there is a camera rental here in Toronto so that I can try them out. I will take my time this time! Thanks so much and save your money!
E

Pete Cofrancesco
September 30th, 2019, 05:49 AM
Thanks Chris. I looked at the Panny UX180 and it looks good. Although a few reviewers had an issue with its low light performance and the "substandard" 1080p performance...hmm...that's their opinion but I for sure need SOLID 1080p...better than my XF300 if possible...and better low light...otherwise no point in upgrading...I may see if there is a camera rental here in Toronto so that I can try them out. I will take my time this time! Thanks so much and save your money!
E
In comparison to a 1/3” sensor, a 1” is better in low light about 2 stops. In addition shadows don’t get crushed as much and there is less noise. But the main reason manufacturers went to 1” is they needed a larger sensor to support 4k. Even though the sensor is larger it’s higher resolution so the photo receptors are not much bigger. ie low light gains will be modest.

Usually the people who complain about these 1” camcorder light performance are mirrorless/dslr users. While it’s true these cameras are a big jump up in low light performance they are an entirely different category of camera. So if low light is most important then those types of cameras are better just as long as you’re ok with trading away the many benefits of a camcorder.

Chris Harding
September 30th, 2019, 06:26 AM
I actually have two Panasonic FZ1000 bridge cameras with 1" sensors and they outperform my AC80 in low light by miles! The only issue with most bridge or mirrorless cameras is the limited record time ..my FZ1000's are great at weddings but if I had to use them for concerts I would need to stop and start after each performance as they can only record for 27mins before you have to stop and restart ... It has a 16X zoom but can go from 25 to 1600 using izoom ... quite amazing cameras for under $1K and they shoot 4K video too!!! However you do need to realise that they are NOT camcorders .... I use mine for both stills (20megapixels) and video up to UHD so quite a remarkable camera for the price!!