Hi, first post here, sorry for the newbie Q , but I have an ancient Sony TRV900 mini DV camcorder that keeps dropping out audio which is due to irregular tape tension (had it checked). It's too expensive to fix so thought I'd get a used camcorder cheap so I can transfer some old tapes to HD.

Can I just use any mini DV camcorder to play back tapes recorded 18 years ago on the Sony? It was a 3 chip camera, will those tapes be compatible with the 1 chip cameras that flood eBay? Will the playback quality be the same regardless?

Also, is it worth keeping my damaged camera to record (bypassing the tape) direct to HD via firewire? Was that old 3 chip technology any good by today's standards?

Lastly, can someone explain how the tape tension fault seems to affect some old tapes more than others? The dropouts happen in different spots every time, so it can't be the tapes, yet some tapes have no problem at all. Just doesn't make sense to me...

Welcome.

The DV recorder is basically the same regardless of the number of chips on the camera side, because that will be outputting the same signal into the recorder..

You won't get HD resolution from a standard definition camera, although you can up scale it. You may find that some NLEs don't accept Firewire. you may need to convert to a video file before importing it into the editor

If you wish to shoot HD on an old camera I would go for an HDV camera, someone else may confirm this, but I gather these will play DV. I know some people used to shoot DV on HDV cameras..

HDV cameras will also record and play back regular DV recordings. (Tape media is the same format for both recording types, but dedicated HDV tapes are a higher grade material to eradicate the possibility of playback glitches from a data dropout.)

Your 'tape fault' may be to do with a slipping/grabbing issue that we discussed here frequently back in the day. Aside from the judicious use of a cleaning tape to remove the gunk that accumulates on the head in the recorder unit, the solution was otherwise to stick to only one brand/type of tape. Worst case scenario is that you do multiple captures and stitch them together to get a glitch-free final product.

Definitely do your transfers via Firewire (iLink on Sony gear) and let us know how you go.

Andrew

It's also made worse by heads that are worn - so you have poor control over tape tension and then less reliable contact between tape and head surface. Sad, but quite normal on older gear. Mini DV is quite common still so getting the tapes ingested to a hard drive is something that should be controllable.

Welcome.

The DV recorder is basically the same regardless of the number of chips on the camera side, because that will be outputting the same signal into the recorder..

You won't get HD resolution from a standard definition camera, although you can up scale it. You may find that some NLEs don't accept Firewire. you may need to convert to a video file before importing it into the editor

If you wish to shoot HD on an old camera I would go for an HDV camera, someone else may confirm this, but I gather these will play DV. I know some people used to shoot DV on HDV cameras..

Cheers for the replies! So, an old HDV camera to buy for the transfers is a better bet than, say, the Sony TRV20 single chip? Will the tapes play back as well? Do the HDV cameras have firewire out? Or something else? I'm hoping to use iMovie, which takes the firewire just fine from the Sony TRV cameras.

Hi Grinzy,

A HDV camera will do the job just as well, and gives you playback of old DV tapes as well.

In a sense, HD / HDV and Firewire were practically made for each other. I'd be surprised if you could get a HDV camera or deck without a Firewire port. (If you don't have a corresponding one on your computer, you can purchase an adapter card very cheaply.)

Andrew

PS. Welcome to the forum!

The only problem that I have heard. (but cannot confirm) is that standard playback works with others but there are sometimes problems with the long playbacks. (turning a 1 hour tape into a 1 1/2 hour tape)

My suggestion, buy an inexpensive Sony minidv camera, import all your tapes, then sell the camera and get a tapeless camera or simply use a smart phone.

So, which smart phones are better than minDV / HDV camcorders? Resolution? Zoom? Low light? etc etc..

So, which smart phones are better than minDV / HDV camcorders? Resolution? Zoom? Low light? etc etc..
There are trade offs which it sounds like you’re aware of. There are a lot of options too long to list, varying in price features and size. For most people including myself have accepted the short comings of a smart phone in favor of its convenience. For vacation or family events it’s better to have something than nothing. I’ve grown tired of lugging around a camera and rather enjoy the event/trip than document it. But I have retired friends who have taken up video/photography as an enthusiasts hobby. Mirrorless cameras have become a popular alternative... You’re budget and desires should guide you in your choice of camera.

Tragically, all of today's smart phones are better than what you were doing with MiniDV 20 years ago. You will get at least high definition.

Audio will be on the camera only, unless you connect in a device such as a Rode Smartlav (http://www.rode.com/microphones/smartlav). And zoom will be 'digital zoom' except in some very expensive phones where things are slightly different.

To shoot video properly you need a proper video camera with all the manual controls available at hand rather than buried in the unit. That said, a phone is something you have always got with you and in a pinch I have shot accident scene footage with my phone and it's been put out to broadcast in a story.

Phones are disturbingly good for their size, but they do have their limitations. With no real zoom I suggest not filming an escaped lion.

Andrew

"Tragically"

Not the word I would use, I prefer to use the word tragic for a blameless victim here I would prefer stupidity.
Stupidity from the photo/video industry holding on the earlier ideas, comparable to the old Kodak, "we continue to use film" attitude.

The tragedy is that what the more dedicated of us spent big bucks on is easily outperformed by the most commodified domestic item, and on pretty much every level. The Kodak short sighted boneheadedness is another story.

Andrew

You haven't told us exactly what kind of tapes you're using and what format you used. Are the tapes longer than 60 minutes? It's been a long time since I used tapes, but I recall there were so 80 minute or 90 minute tapes out there. These could be problematic even in a pro video camera, and if that's what you have then there may be problems getting them to work in any camera or deck. These tapes were thinner and could stretch, creating problems. They also could jam.

And what format did you shoot in? Again, it's been so long that I don't even remember the terminology clearly, but IIRC the standard (highest quality) mode was called SP for Standard Play and consumer cameras also had EP (Extended Play) mode. Many people thought they should always use EP because it used less tape and saved money. But again, video recorded in that format was not as reliable (because the data was written in a smaller amount of space). But playing back this kind of video could also be problematic, even on the original camera.

So you could end up with unreadable tapes (or tapes with lots of dropouts) if you used either long tapes of EP mode. The long tapes should be compatible with just about all cameras at least, however some cameras may not support EP mode at all.

Back in the day, the general wisdom was that you should capture your video from the same camera that was used to record it. Another problem could be that tape head alignment issues on the original camera could create problems when a different camera is used for capture. And inexpensive consumer cameras were more prone to this kind of problem - especially if they were heavily used.

A few years ago I started capturing hundreds of my own old tapes, and I no longer had a tape based camera, so I bought a Sony HDV deck which has worked very well for me. Have only had a few tapes with dropout problems. However, all my tapes were shot on prosumer Sony cameras. And, FWIW, the HDV deck I got does not support EP mode.

Beyond all this, I wouldn't invest any time or effort to continue using an old tape-based camera today. Capture your old tapes and then just put it away! Really, they just aren't worth the trouble in today's world. :)

I mainly used 60 min tapes, assorted brands unfortunately, and only in SP mode. How easy is it to find a mini DV or HD deck? What would be the cheapest useable second hand unit for my purpose?

Really appreciating all the advice here, by the way! :)

I bought a Sony HVR-M1U deck from Adorama in 2016 for $516, which included sales tax and shipping. But I had a large quantity archival footage of live performances on HDV, DVCAM and DV tapes, shot on high quality cameras. This deck is overkill for personal footage shot on an inexpensive camera, and you don't need HDV capability.

Sony had an older entry level DV/DVCAM deck that was popular, although the model number escapes me. You should also find these on the used market and they'll be cheaper than the HVR-M1U. But these little decks were real "workhorses" and may have seen very heavy use. That's why I like to get this kind of thing from B&H Photo, Adorama or another well-known company that will stand behind it with a warranty. I don't follow prices anymore, but you can research this yourself. Just go to the B&H and Adorama websites and look at their used professional video gear. Shouldn't be hard to find.

Sony had an older entry level DV/DVCAM deck that was popular, although the model number escapes me. .

Maybe the DSR-11, which was a half rack size deck? I still have mine and it's going strong.

A few years ago I made the decision to back up my old analog tapes (VHS, SVHS, 8mm, Hi8, 3/4, Beta) to DVCAM rather than straight to disk as I was having a lot of capture errors and the deck seemed to be able to handle it better than the computer. Also I realized the benefit of tape backup on top of hard drives. I thought it would be smart to get a backup deck as well, and discovered that the much more expensive and robust studio DVCAM decks (DSR1800A) were actually selling for less than the "prosumer" DSR11. I ended up picking up two of them, with the optional SDI boards, for $150 and $180 each. Amazing considering the SDI boards alone are still available as new parts, for $1500 and up! What's helpful about that is this makes them more easily compatible with capture boxes and devices like Atomos recorders with the SDI interface.

Interesting note on capturing VHS footage and some of the interference you can get through the video part (and it's not a particular VHS deck or a tape, but probably a stray electronics issue that wasn't a noticeable problem back in the CRT TV days).

I was spending oodles of tine trying all sorts of things to narrow down where the issue was coming from and/or how to mitigate or fix it. In the end I think it's simply part and parcel of the electronics that make up a VHS unit. I have no other explanation for it.

What I did discover is that when running the video signal through my Sony HVRM25U HDV deck (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/568090-REG/Sony_HVR_M25AU_HVR_M25AU_HDV_VTR.html) it cleaned up the problem before the video out from the deck made it to my Matrox MXO2 (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/622787-REG/Matrox_MXO2MAX_N_MXO2_Max_for_Desktop.html) box. Such a nice and welcome development.

So little did I know prior to this discovery that there must have been some extra electronics, included in these decks by Sony, that cleaned and stablised the incoming video signal. Probably makes sens when you consider how heavily compressed HDV is and the need to have recorded video performing as well as possible for the sake of the format and its reputation. Guess that's what we pay the extra bucks for when purchasing the good gear.

So I'm not at all surprised if others find recording to the deck gives excellent results from their analogue tape sources.

Andrew

Maybe the DSR-11, which was a half rack size deck? I still have mine and it's going strong

Yes, that's it! I remember really wanting one of those, but had already spent all my money on cameras and computers. :)

Locally, near Seattle, there is a miniDV unit with a similar model number, DSR-V10, on Craigs list. It is small as it is a Walkman version. The specs indicate a lot of capabilities so don't know if it could be an option. $225 or best offer. A search for the model number found it also advertised on eBay.
https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/ele/d/lynnwood-sony-dsr-v10-digital-video/7038071943.html

With regard to what Andrew wrote about unexplained interference, it would be interesting to see if a couple ferrites near each end of the cable would help.You don't see them that often anymore but ferrites were commonly used on cables to cut out electromagnetic interference (EMI). Used to have a couple for a Panasonic mic cable and they were designed to be clamped on aftermarket style and were not molded or built-into the cable as it is typically done.

So, which smart phones are better than minDV / HDV camcorders? Resolution? Zoom? Low light? etc etc..
If like half the world you are in a '50Hz' country*, smartphones can give problems arising from 50Hz lighting flicker, (most smartphones are stuck with 30Hz frame rates.

* I think Melbourne is quite well embedded in '50Hz land'.

Actually I've never noticed a flicker issue with filming video on a smart phone. On the other hand, it's very rare for me to use a smart phone for filming video.

Andrew