When it comes to revealing a twist in a screenplay, I'm torn on how do you figure out, when the best time to reveal it.

A lot of times in stories, especially thriller, stories, like mine, reveal the twist when the main character finds out the twist. That way, the reader both find out through the main character's eyes as he/she does.

I wrote my screenplay like that at first but after revising it, I wonder if I should reveal it earlier, cause doing so early creates the "bomb under the table" as the Hitchcock term goes.

One movie that reveals the twist before the main character finds out is Vertigo. The reason why, is because if you know there is a bomb under the table before it goes off, it creates suspense.

Another movie that reveals the twist long before the main character finds out is The Departed. This isn't really spoiling anything since it's revealed right in the beginning of the movie, but we the audience, know right from the beginning, that the Matt Damon character, is bad. Because the writers thought it was good to have the bomb under the table.

Now they could have not revealed that, and saved for a much bigger surprise by revealing it when the Leonardo DiCaprio character finds out.

But they decided that the bomb under the table is better. Where as other stories like to wait to reveal things, when the main character finds out, like The Sixth Sense for example. In that movie, instead of going for the bomb under the table, you have no idea, and they let the bomb explosion be a total surprise, they don't want you to see coming at all.

So how do you know which method of revealing a twist is better? Knowing that there is a bomb under the table that is going to off, or not, and letting the explosion be a total surprise in itself?

Also, after revealing a twist, the audience is going to want an explanation for the twist, otherwise they won't understand it. Such as for example, a character you thought was good, but turns out to be bad and a villain all along. Now that doesn't mean the audience knows why, or knows the motivations. So is it best to reveal the motivation the same time as revealing the twist, like say in a flashback that follows?

Or can the audience wait until later, when the villain meets with another villain and they would have a conversation that reveals the motive then? The problem with that though, is the audience is going to be left wondering for an explanation till later on, rather than showing a flashback immediately following the twist reveal.

What do you think, and how do you decide which method is better for your story?

The best timing for key points is for at least two things to be happening at the the same time, one of which impinges badly on the main protagonist. If it's really important at the end of the first or second acts, or the mid point od the second act.

There are a lot of script writing books which you should be reading. for example, Syd Field has a number of practical books on screen writing.

The set ups are key for all these things, if you've preparing to reveal twists the ground work has to be laid out, even if the audience doesn't know it is and ideally they don't.

From your questions read Syd Field because you don't seem to be thinking like a scriptwriter. You don't seem to inside YOUR story, since you still keep referring to other films and since we don't know your story or characters, we can't answer your questions.

Often you find the right way by doing it the wrong way and rewriting it again and again.

Ryan - it suddenly occurred to me that maybe (and I don't know your current education level) you could be an ideal candidate for education at Masters or Doctorate level? You really want to understand how things work, rather than actually doing them. I have some friends who are now 'Dr' not 'Mr' and they're the same - they like to study, compare, contrast, analyse and document - in practical terms they're pretty incapable of doing things because they do this analytical process as part of their day to day activity. They need toothpaste, so instead of going to the shop and seeing one that says whitener, and another that says for sensitive teeth, they take pictures of the contents, the manufacturer and spend a couple of days researching each chemical, it's effects and long term benefits or hazards to health. They then use the internet to read people's opinions. Then, they go back to the shop to buy and discover there's now a new formation!

I agree with Paul, Ryan would be better off in the world of academics. I also enjoyed your toothpaste story.

Poor Ryan is trying to follow in the footsteps of Tarantino, too bad he can’t get a job at a video store.

So basically you’re saying in one movie they did it one way and in another movie they did it another way and your asking people who haven’t read your script what you should do. The obvious answer is there is no one right way to do it as long as you do it right. Brian is recommending material helps understand the underlining concepts.

The problem with your copy paste approach, without understanding the fundamentals of screenwriting and developing your own ideas you are dependent on outside material and have no strong opinions of your own.

Oh okay, well as far as having opinions of my own, I do have a lot of opinions of my own, but there are pros and cons to everything so if I choose to do something one, way, there will be pros and cons to it, so I thought it was a matter of which approach is best, since they both have positives and negatives, each.

I also do have really strong opinions on some things, but I am often told they are bad, so if my opinions are bad, I want external opinions on which is the best way, if that is the approach I should take if my opinions are not the best?

I was also told on here before that me having strong opinions locks me into only one way of working things, so if that's true, than shouldn't I seek other opinions then, instead of working in a vacuum?

It's just if I stick to my opinions and make a whole movie in a vacuum, I feel there is a better chance it will turn out bad, and therefore, shouldn't I seek other opinions?

No one can express an opinion on a script they know nothing about. It's like asking which colour car should you buy when no one knows which make or model it is, All they can say is they like the colour red, blue, pink or whatever they like, it's nothing to do with the car.

It's been suggested before in another thread that you get a script reader or doctor to give you feedback on your script.

Even then you need to be able to interpret what they're saying, because good ones won't tell you directly. They'll hold up a "mirror" and it's up to you act upon what you see in their reaction or notes.

Oh okay, why won't the good ones tell you directly?

Because it's your script, not their script and they are reporting on impressions without telling you what to do. You may get differing reports from the script people, because the whole process is subjective. If there's a possible issue there can be a number of creative ways of solving it. some of which are left field, this is what you need to explore as the writer.

All they can do is confirm what you're trying to say is or isn't coming across.

Oh okay, I thought that script doctors would have advice on what to do instead, of something is not right. However, I try to present more than one execution, so they can pick one which is best, unless they won't do that.

You need to know yourself, a writer needs to have judgment and know what they're trying to say. If you don't have the conviction in what you're wiring why should anyone else? It's not a multi choice exam, because any change has implications to other aspects of the story,

You're not working in a writers' room as in TV and you don't have the budget to pay a writer, so you need to write you own drafts. That can get over a dozen drafts before everything is sorted.

With your budget, you can't afford the level of detail that you seem to want from the script people.

Oh okay. When you say the level of detail, you mean the detail in their feedback?

I think Brian’s response is quite clear. Asking the question shows that you find it impossible to analyse the written word. When you pay somebody to review your script you can’t then ask them questions about their comments but I suspect you would get the document and email back “so you mean ......”

You really are quite difficult to communicate with Ryan. If you do this with script readers they charge you for their work. At some point Ryan you need to grow a set and make your own decisions without constantly wanting reassurance you’ve got it right. In life you’re a ditherer. You need to learn to listen, consider and decide!

The detail depends on what you're paying and what type of report it is. At the higher end they will give a longer written report and will do a face to face for an hour or so, while some others don't do full a written report, but will spend the time giving a face to face instead.

However, they will want to see a script, not a series of what ifs. You should've worked those out at the treatment stage. The one you selected may not have worked, so you have to revisit the options, but that's not the same thing. These can be pretty brutal affairs even if your script is up to a professional writer's standard, but isn't working.

Why are asking this, when you seem be asking how to shoot stuff?

Oh I just looked at the script and came across this now. Didn't notice it before.

I just wonder if the audience will be asking more questions, as they wait for the reveal, where as if the reveal is revealed beforehand, they may not. But then the negative of that is the reveal is not as big, if it's given away sooner. Just noticed it later on.

Well I feel that it would be safer to give away the reveal sooner, because then the reader will not ask questions, cause they know what's going on. But a part of me is saying, don't play it safe, trust the reader will want to keep reading even if they now have more unanswered questions, and give them a bigger surprise later.

We can't answer that because we don't know anything about your script.

A twist is usually later than sooner, otherwise it's not a twist. If it's set up correctly, the twist is the pay off.

Yeah. Well I could introduce the twist at the beginning of the second act, because then it's a bomb under the table for the reader to get excited about, knowing that the main character will find out and waiting for the bomb to go off.

Or I could wait till when when the main character does find out, which is about halfway through the script, halfway through the second act about, and then the audience finds out when the main character does. The risk of doing it this way, is that the audience will have questions that will not get answered till after it's revealed, which may confuse them more until then though.

Again, we can't answer that.

However, a twist tends to be something that the character finds out with the audience, For example in Chinatown, the mother and sister reveal.

Yeah.

That's why I used The Departed as an example. They could have saved the twist for when Leonardo DiCaprio finds out from the paper on the desk, but they decided to reveal it before he found out. Wonder if that's better in some ways, since some movies like that or Vertigo, choose to do it that way.

Surely it depends on what reaction the author expects to get from the reveal. I've just been revisiting a novel that I've read before, and one of the reveals I discover was 'teased' at many times before being revealed. Quite overt clues that I totally missed. I wonder how many readers noticed? What was the author's point in inserting these. They weren't red-herrings used as distraction, just small clues that I missed. If I'd have spotted them, would I have realised this little sub-plot? I don't know. However - I'm not an author, so don't know how to write a plot, or even a rough draft. My one script I thought good - but my friends told me it was crap. I really don't know why, but they all said it was, so it probably was.

You have to decide which way works for your story. There's no set rule, although using the method that puts the max pressure on the protagonist is probably the way to go.

A Paul says, use set ups to prepare the ground.

Oh okay, well as far as having opinions of my own, I do have a lot of opinions of my own, but there are pros and cons to everything so if I choose to do something one, way, there will be pros and cons to it, so I thought it was a matter of which approach is best, since they both have positives and negatives, each.

I also do have really strong opinions on some things, but I am often told they are bad, so if my opinions are bad, I want external opinions on which is the best way, if that is the approach I should take if my opinions are not the best?

I was also told on here before that me having strong opinions locks me into only one way of working things, so if that's true, than shouldn't I seek other opinions then, instead of working in a vacuum?

It's just if I stick to my opinions and make a whole movie in a vacuum, I feel there is a better chance it will turn out bad, and therefore, shouldn't I seek other opinions?
It would be more helpful if you saw a therapist. Hopefully with therapy you might be able to address your underlying issues that are behind all these movie problems.

Unfortunately Ryan may not realise that everything around can have a twist and nothing can be taken at face value

The Greatest Movie Plot Twists Of All Time - YouTube

Are you saying I don't take enough things at face value, or too much?

What do YOU think Ryan - this is the entire point!

Well I try to ascertain the most absolute of information I can to try to be certain.

That's the problem, isn't it. Sometimes, this causes averaging, rounding and homogenisation. Sometimes you just need to go with your gut and do no analysis at all.

Joking aside - have you every tried free writing? You just sort of gush it out - typing or writing every single thought that appears when it appears as fast as you can without going back and reading anything - you just sort of empty your mind.

Oh okay, it's just that when I go with my gut before, I felt my gut was incorrect based on other responses, so I wanted to eliminate uncertain variables if possible.

Yep I've tried. I've tried writing fly by the seat of your pants style to see where the story will go as well. But I prefer structure in order for the story to follow the same theme, cause if I do the free style more so, characters may make decisions that go against the theme, I'm trying to convey.

Sometimes you have to go where the characters take you.

if I do the free style more so, characters may make decisions that go against the theme, I'm trying to convey.
Yep - that's the point. You then decide which is better - sticking to the script as planned or developing what could be a better idea?
Rigid adherence to a poor plan is bad. Sticking to an excellent one works fine.

If you feel your gut reaction was not correct, then it wasn't a gut reaction at all, was it? You did say some very strange things sometimes.

No I felt my gut reactions were correct, it's just I was told it wasn't the right way to go after the product is finished, so that causes me to question my gut reactions.

As for going where the characters take it, I could do that, but then that might contradict the themes intended, which could be a problem.

Next time somebody tells you something, stop. Consider the things this person has previously told you, and what their track record is at getting it right? So many of your friends and colleagues are either too nice, too random in their opinions, or possibly just winding you up. They tell you the most ridiculous things sometimes - why do you put any trust in what they say?

This is a thread from the writing forum from 4 years ago talking about this same screenplay which got him banned. Just read his ridiculous premise.

https://www.writingforums.org/threads/how-can-i-write-this-seduction-scenario-with-this-character.147655/

Oh okay, it's just that also, on here people tell me my gut reactions were wrong in the past though, so I thought those opinions count too, shouldn't I listen?

If the characters are taking you in a different direction to your intended themes, perhaps you should start thinking why this is the case and if there is an underlying issue with either your characters or your premise.

Writers commonly talk about following where their characters take them.

Having had a quick look at the writers forum, I'm left wondering if you really know these characters or even met people like them, if this is the case why should anyone believe the story you;re telling, especially if your own characters are taking you in another direction? That also raises the possibly that you don't really believe in your own story, maybe that's the real twist in all this.

Oh well usually it's if I write in a fly by the seat of your pants sort of way, compared to building toward a pre-planned ending in advance.

That doesn't make any sense.

Oh sorry, how doesn't it? If you already know the ending you will build towards in advance, then you are more certain that the characters will not make any decisions that contradict the theme, no?

If you are forcing them not to contradict your "theme" in a way that doesn't work, so that you have unbelievable characters, the whole thing will then appear 2 dimensional, with cardboard cut out characters.

Oh yeah I don't want that either, but want to find a balance, where they are not card board cut out at all, but they do not contradict the themes either.

Based on your comments in the the writer's forum. I suspect you are basing your characters on people you see in movies, which isn't a promising start and appears you're on yet another copy and paste exercise.

Given your forum, messages you're no Ernest Lehman, so perhaps you should be considering that your premise doesn't work or you don't know the world of your characters enough to pull the audience into it, so that it does work.

Oh okay, well I can to try to seduce the reader in more then, if that's best.

As to the comment that the premise is ridiculous, I was told this before by a couple of readers, but was also told by some that there is no such thing as a ridiculous premise, just a ridiculous execution. So as long as the execution is good, than the premise will work. Is this true?

But what if you pitch your script to be people and tel them the premise, and they will judge based on the premise, without reading the execution though, if it's the execution that makes a premise good?

Perhaps you should consider if your script is a ridiculous execution as these readers are saying that the premise is ridiculous?

Oh okay, well I can to try to seduce the reader in more then, if that's best.

As to the comment that the premise is ridiculous, I was told this before by a couple of readers, but was also told by some that there is no such thing as a ridiculous premise, just a ridiculous execution. So as long as the execution is good, than the premise will work. Is this true?

But what if you pitch your script to be people and tel them the premise, and they will judge based on the premise, without reading the execution though, if it's the execution that makes a premise good?
So how has the four years of trying to execute a ridiculous plot been going? I suppose your litany of questions here is your idea of perfecting your execution. Dear lord...

Well, maybe I'm old, or just old fashioned, but I find the entire plot described on the other forum - which incidentally is for SCRIPT WRITERS not people like us - distasteful in the extreme. I don't know why anyone would wish to make a movie like that, but knowing a person who was raped means I know just one thing.

I'm male. I have no understanding whatsoever of factors that would be important to the female viewer. I try to empathise, but I cannot. I suspect that few males could understand at all, but just sympathies on the periphery. Clearly, by the 7 pages of comments, it's clear Ryan has no comprehension whatsoever about the story matter he wishes to create. It cannot work. Half the viewing audience would be screaming at him.

We're in a new world of gender fluidity, and that's difficult enough to comprehend, but this movie idea is doomed because it's misunderstood by the writer, and misunderstood my 50% of the populace. It's hugely problematic, and potentially dangerous. On top of this - Ryan has issues reading people. He has issues understanding what they say, and simple responses frequently get misinterpreted or distorted. The constant request for "So what you are saying?" when it usually is NOT what we're saying means that the subject matter is too emotive and for many distasteful, to be strung together in this hamfisted manner.

Ryan - I urge you to drop this screenplay because it is bad. It will remain bad when edited, and will be viewed as bad by the audience.

Given Ryan's work to date and the type of questions he repeatedly asks, this project appears well beyond his understanding of people and his current talents.

There are a number of good films that deal with rape and serial killers etc, some are pretty dark, but since Ryan seems to be more concerned about the superficial aspects it's unlikely to go beyond being a poor exploitation film. perhaps revealing more about Ryan himself than the the larger world.

Well, maybe I'm old, or just old fashioned, but I find the entire plot described on the other forum - which incidentally is for SCRIPT WRITERS not people like us - distasteful in the extreme. I don't know why anyone would wish to make a movie like that, but knowing a person who was raped means I know just one thing.

I'm male. I have no understanding whatsoever of factors that would be important to the female viewer. I try to empathise, but I cannot. I suspect that few males could understand at all, but just sympathies on the periphery. Clearly, by the 7 pages of comments, it's clear Ryan has no comprehension whatsoever about the story matter he wishes to create. It cannot work. Half the viewing audience would be screaming at him.

We're in a new world of gender fluidity, and that's difficult enough to comprehend, but this movie idea is doomed because it's misunderstood by the writer, and misunderstood my 50% of the populace. It's hugely problematic, and potentially dangerous. On top of this - Ryan has issues reading people. He has issues understanding what they say, and simple responses frequently get misinterpreted or distorted. The constant request for "So what you are saying?" when it usually is NOT what we're saying means that the subject matter is too emotive and for many distasteful, to be strung together in this hamfisted manner.

Ryan - I urge you to drop this screenplay because it is bad. It will remain bad when edited, and will be viewed as bad by the audience.

What does gender fluidity have to do with this type of story though? Not every story has to be about that, does it?

Given Ryan's work to date and the type of questions he repeatedly asks, this project appears well beyond his understanding of people and his current talents.

There are a number of good films that deal with rape and serial killers etc, some are pretty dark, but since Ryan seems to be more concerned about the superficial aspects it's unlikely to go beyond being a poor exploitation film. perhaps revealing more about Ryan himself than the the larger world.

Well I am also concerned about the story aspects as well, it's just this is a filmmaking forum more about the technology and techniques I thought, so I thought I would ask those kind of questions on here, unless that's not good...

But even so, most good movies that have good stories, the director never skimps on the superficial aspects, just because he/she believes in the script. It's not a director is going to say, this script is awesome, which means I can just skip over the superficial aspects. Don't those aspects matter too in the filmmaking process?

Yes, but your script's concept seems to be misconceived because of your seeming lack of understanding, which does strongly come across in the script writer forum discussions. This is in spite of the other contributors giving interesting and detailed points on and around the subject.

It’s funny to look back at that writing forum from years ago and see Ryan doing the same thing we have witnessed here, eliciting the same helpful advice, which in turn has no effect on him. He is still copy pasting ideas from movies, misunderstandings peoples comments... He’s a complete and utter hack who has a disturbing fascination with the subject of rape.

Oh it's not that I don't mean to take advice from others, it's just when suggestions are made, there are holes in the suggestions or problematic variables that I feel I need to discuss, otherwise it's hard to apply the suggestion if there is an unaddressed problem in it, that's all. It's not that I don't want to take the suggestions at all, it's just if I see a hole in the suggestion, I want to discuss it first, to try to make it work.

Is that bad of me to do so? Plus I don't think this is really true for everything though. I took a lot of suggestions from that site, and the script was improved a lot because of the suggestions. And I think that the advice on here has helped and improved my filmmaking perception a lot. So even though I cannot apply all the advice, because of certain variables here and there, I feel that a lot has helped me though still.

I have no strange fascination with rape it's just part of the story concept of the script.

Can't you work these "holes" out on your own and the solutions? That's what writers do, they can spend days or even weeks working these things out, They don't spend days or weeks on a forum going around in circles, they make a decision and run with it, That's what a treatment is for.

Feeling your way around a dark pit, as I believe Robert McKee described it.