I worked with a composer on a couple of projects so far, but I was wondering if I should work with him again, or if I should find someone else if the music was not that good?

Here are two shorts he scored for me:

Trioxin Commercial - YouTube

Battle Damaged Souls - YouTube

The ad is 60's cliche music of course but I guess he got the steer on that and the battle damaged using fits fine. If he composed this and recorded it I'd not find any issues with his products at all. Artistically and technically they're OK.

Why do you ask? Don't you like them?

I like them, I was just wondering if it was good from other opinions. For the add I wanted him to do something more 80s or 90s, like what you would hear on the Batman (1989), or Darkman (1990) soundtrack. I wanted to do another project with him where I wanted similar music, but does it come off as too 60s, rather than of those two movies?

If you want 80's then you have the era of synth pop - so loads of FM synthesis and synth strings in the popular music of the time and that filtered into movie music, but adverts would be contemporary styles of the time. The ad to me is older, but that could be that I remember the 60s being different from the 80s, either side of the 70s and real pop, with abba and the other big names with pianos and real guitars. Orchestral recordings have never swung very far, so string heavy stuff was in every decade's music.

If you don't want 60's tell the composer, otherwise he'll have to guess. The style is really from the late 70s really - the clutch of horror movies that sprung up with video tape hire shops - The Hills Have Eyes, Texas Chainsaw and other blood and guts darker movies. You can mimic these or totally disregard them. You need to be careful with chase music, as the ramp into something so different can make people hear the music, and that you want to avoid. Incidental music is emotion and mood creating, and if you remember it, or are drawn to it overtly, then it was a wrong choice. Movie themes are so different to the supporting music - Harry Potter is a good example. The recurring themes and motifs disappear when something happens. When Dumbledore dies is a good example - take that scene's music out of Harry Potter context and it's just a piece of rather nice, sad music. Most people would never connect it with the movie. In adverts, you have to forgo subtlety and hit them between the eyes, but again, the action is the key feature. The music must support what the director wants. I took loads of my stuff archived and doing nothing, and stuck them on iTunes, Spotify and Youtube. People have been downloading them totally out of context. Lots of them I don't even remember writing or what they were from. Composers need a good brief, perhaps with examples of music you feel it the sort of thing you want. Your composer seems competent, but I bet you make him do far too much guessing.

Oh okay thanks. The chase music in the commercial is mostly brass music, though, and I thought that horror movies of the 70s, usually couldn't afford brass instruments, unless I am wrong? I haven't seen a lot of them though, so maybe they could afford it?

As for making the composer guess too much, what can I do to make him guess less? I gave him tracks from the movie scores I wanted it to sound like, but should I do more?

For the next project, I was also thinking of doing more, and telling him what instruments I want exactly, if that would help too.

The usual method is to put in temp tracks, which hint at some aspect of the music. However, in the end it comes down to you listening to the music that the composer normally writes, talking to them and then letting them go. I supplied him with a video without a music track,

With one composer I put in the temp tracks, which all the funders loved and let him listen once. He composed a few ideas for the music. I listened, drove home and half way there, i rang him with the choice. Of course. the funders still had the temp tracks in their brains, but the temps would've cost too much to clear. His music worked extremely well.

With the next film, I put in some temp music for the opening as an example and had no more music in the edit and left the composer to it.

In the end, you have to trust the composer you''ve selected.

My best paying music track was for the music to be played at an exhibition in the UAE in a presentation for a Prince, and then played continuously for 2 days. I shot and edited the video which lasted just 3 and a half minutes. The firm commissioning the shoot wants Jean Michel Jarre - and the clearance quote I got they thought was for the full period, not just the one play. As a result it was out - firmly! I said I'd write something very similar and charge them a set price. Worked great.

All a composer needs is the feel that is needed. Simple stuff - scary, lovey dovey, tension, ease, sadness (my favourite) or anger. Even period - contemporary or historic. Worst is no steer at all.

Oh okay then, thanks. Well for temp tracks I have been using tracks from other movie soundtracks, but is that bad?

However, with temp tracks there are usually one or more instruments in that I don't want, so I will instruct him to loose those instruments, but still have a track that sounds similar, if that's a good way to collaborate with him.

This has come up before. Be careful using temp tracks, or recording a demo for your project.

Years ago we had a budget for a 35 piece score and orchestra, but hedging our bets we recorded a 10 piece demo which I thought wasn’t too bad. Unfortunately so did the client because after we presented the full orchestral version, to our horror he didn’t like it, he wanted the 10 piece demo, even though he got other opinions.

The moral of this story is: be careful, by not going with the client, and letting him know ... you can lose him altogether.

But late at night I used to listen to our beautiful unused 35 piecer with a glass of Scotch, they went well together.

Cheers.

Ouch. Is there any chance you could ever repurpose the 35-piece score for another project?

Or worst case, release it into the public domain so someone else might benefit from it.

Hi Greg.

We couldn’t do anything with it, because our client had to pay for it all, he owned it. This was back in the analogue days, and the 24 track master tape just sat on our library shelf, till I sold the company. I hoped the new owners used it as teaching tool for their young engineers.

Funny though, we knew our client was an agent for his client, a big advertising company, and this music project was for a huge new campaign for their new clients product. As much as I wanted to ask our guy whether he played our 35 piecer for his adv. client and what did they think, I didn’t, because he would have passed the total invoice for everything on to them, and I didn’t want to know how he did it.

But in a situation like this, you keep your ear to ground, in case the ‘blame’ for such a large invoice comes our way through bad something or other. I wrote a full report with dates, times, names and invoices and kept it on file in case I needed it.

I’ve heard of the client falling in love with the demo before, you just have to be careful. All part of the games we played back then ... and now :)

Cheers.

Ryan - temp tracks are for feel. It's fine to say I want it like schindlers list, but I hate violins, that's a good clue, but once you start dictating instrumentation, the composer's have a hand tied behind their back and don't like it. So would replacing the inline lead with a flute be ok, or do you mean you don't actually want a featured instrument? You both need to understand each other's vocabulary. I'm doing it the other way around at the moment, I'm arranging movie themes for a live project and swapping parts around and schindlers list WILL have the violin featured live because it doesn't work on something else. However, Gabriel's Oboe will have no oboe, but will share the melody with a saxophone and a female voice. This oddly doesn't wreck the piece but enables it to grow a bit.

Oh okay. I never asked him to remove an instrument entirely from a piece, but would sometimes ask him to replace it with something else. For example, for one project, he put in an electric guitar and I wasn't feeling, it but I liked the rythym. So I told him I really liked the rythym, but if he could just replace the guitar with a viola or violin perhaps, and he did.

But is had to ask for certain instruments to be replaced?

For the next project though, I was thinking of making a list of instruments I would like him to use, but is that bad of me to do?

Unless you're a musician, I wouldn't get too detailed about the instruments, best keep it general.

After all, Hitchcock didn't want what is now regarded as one of the best pieces of film music.

Theme from Psycho (1960) - Shower Scene HQ - YouTube

Oh okay. It's just I feel that certain instruments would help with the feeling. For example one project I am currently planning I want to have a western feel, even though it's set in modern times. But I thought instruments like the harmonica, or spanish guitar, or churchbell sounds for example, would help with the western feel, and thought if I want certain feelings, then I have to tell the composer what instruments I want, unless that is too micromanaging? I'm not a musician, but I tried listening to several pieces as well as doing music research, to try to get an idea of the sounds I want.

You said it - you are not a musician, so feel free to suggest ideas - that always helps, but once you get into musicianship, it's like a sound recordist suggesting a different shutter angle. Never goes down well, no matter how good a suggestion it was.

You've fell into the musical cliche response to film music. Western = harmonics, suspense = screetchy strings, love = lush string melodies, space battles = brass and woods. Probably good starting points but also good things to avoid sometimes. You mention westerns - so once upon a time in the west has some very non-western pieces with singers aahing. If you are Morricone, Vengellis, Williams or Zimmer, you have similarities and huge differences.

There are also of course, differences between supporting music, incidental music and themes.

Westerns have a wide range of music in them. From country and western, folk music to big sweeping orchestras, Morricone's music was very different to that found in westerns at that time, but it influenced the music used on American westerns.

Just tell the composer the feeling you want, perhaps suggesting a harmonica or some other instrument as a stating point and leave them to it, They may use a different instrument in the end that works even better.

Oh okay, but when I give them the temp tracks, if they do not use the instruments that are in the temp tracks, I will likely still want them to use some of those instruments in them because that is what drew me to the temp tracks in the first place. But he may surprise me too.

I just thought if I were to list about 10 instruments up front as a starting point it would help, because those are what are in the temp tracks, unless I am wrong.

As for the harmonica being a cliched choice, I haven't heard the harmonica used years in movies, that I can remember, so I didn't think it was that bad of a cliche. But also, I want what I think would sound good, even if it's a cliche, but is that bad?

Just tell them that you love a particular instrument in a temp track and the emotional feeling that gives to the scene.

Don't gave a shopping list of instruments, you have to trust your composer's taste. Hearing the music for the first time is a nervous time for directors on multi million dollar feature films because it's something outside their control. That's why you see the same composers names coming up again and again in the credits.

Oh okay, I just thought that giving a list of instruments would save time, compared to later, when I tell them I like what they have done, but if they could just swap out this instrument, for this one, etc. Unless it's just better to do swapping later, even if it takes more time?

Let the composer get on with their job, they know the instruments that they have in mind after hearing your temp tracks. It's a creative job, not a shopping list.

A good composer will tell you to get lost, if you start getting into the micro managing details of what the piccolo is doing in the background.

Oh okay, but if I like the rhythym but do not like the sound of a particular instrument, is it bad to ask them to replace it with something else, but keep the rythym and notes still?

What if I want an instrument that he doesn't have in his repertoire, and I therefore have to buy the samples for him, which of course he can have afterwards, but is that bad of me to do if I want that instrument?

Unless it's a pretty obscure instrument, the chances are that the composer will have their own samples.

The composer commonly lets you hear examples of the music, so you can ask them to change an instrument at that stage before they start the full scoring.

How bad it of you depends on if you're purely working to rules again and if, musically, it's a good choice. I don't know how musical you are, so I can't comment on if it's good or bad.

You cannot simply take an oboe and swap it for a flute - each one is played differently. If you really want a certain instrument the composer does not have, let them source it - some will want Kontakt samples, others may have a different base library and want a different format. Do NOT get involved in trying to buy samples for them, it's fruitless because nowadays, you need to authorise samples for the popular players and you cannot download them yourself and hand them over without wasting hours of their time.

You've boiled music down to pitch and rhythm and that's just not enough by a long way. This morning I have had to re-record the bass part for Chariots of Fire. The original uses a synth for the bass, but this is to be played by a small ensemble, and needs to be played on the double bass. The rhythm and pitch is exactly the same, but the attack for the double bass needs to change from one, two,three four, five, six seven eight to ONE, two,three FOUR, FIVE, six seven eight, with some staccato dots thrown in too.

Most blown and reed instruments have a break in the fingering, so going from say C sharp to the D involves lots of finger movement, so if one instrument can slur these two notes, another may not be able to, or perhaps there is a tonal change that doesn't work. Most composers do not use real instruments very much, but huge sample libraries and sometimes swapping saxophone sound for a brass sound requires you to re-record it because it has to be played differently, even though you are using a keyboard! Most people now play the melody with their right hand while using controllers for volume, expression and other parameters with the other.

This is an area of work you clearly know little about, so it doesn't matter, because that's why you have a composer. Just be aware of you have agreed daily rates that what to you might be a little work can take HOURS! At the very least, even if they can just swap a sample set, they have to rebalance, re-eq and find appropriate effects to make it blend. Swapping one instrument could genuinely take a couple of hours for 3 minutes of music - maybe even more if the mix needs tweaking. Leave music for the musicians.

Oh okay. well so far the instruments he doesn't have in his repertoire that I wanted, are a duduk and taikos for example. So I can get those for him, but is it a bad sign if he doesn't have them?

For Gods sake!

I have a duduk, and there is actually one in the Namibia clip I posted, but ethnic instruments are the kinds of things you buy when you first need them, then often don't touch them again!

You do NOT get them for him, you get him to get them for HIS system, and he invoices you if you want to micro-manage his composing. Duduk will also force him to compose in a specific key, which might be constricting, or he could produce a perfectly usable simulation of the thing with other reed samples he may have. You seem to believe that not having one sample is some kind of indicator of his quality. Ryan this is plainly ridiculous and stupid thinking. Being a composer means you NEVER EVER have everything you need, and two composers might have very different sample sets. There is no prescription for creativity. Can you name me any popular piece of music that features the duduk? It's like me wanting to buy a Theremin. I've wanted one for years but unless you are doing 60s sc-fi B movies, or Good Vibrations, it's wasted money.

A good example would be if somebody thought you were a terrible film-maker because you only had a telephoto that didn't stay in focus when you zoom. If you got a good commission you'd presumably buy that better lens then?

You must stop this way of thinking - If your composer can compose, not having a sample of a terrible instrument that rarely plays in tune and honks horribly sometimes can hardly be a device for measuring his ability!!

Those are pretty obscure instruments in western music, so it's not surprising that the composer won't have in their collection.

I don't know why you think that this is a bad sign, there's no logic to it. You've named instruments, but you've given no information on how you wish to use them, which scale you wish to use etc. This all is stuff to be discussed with the composer.

Again, you keep bringing stuff up in a forum that should be dealt with in person. You personally either like the composer's music or you don't. it's all subjective. If you don't, perhaps you should find someone else.

You're the director, it's your decision,

For Gods sake!

I have a duduk, and there is actually one in the Namibia clip I posted, but ethnic instruments are the kinds of things you buy when you first need them, then often don't touch them again!

You do NOT get them for him, you get him to get them for HIS system, and he invoices you if you want to micro-manage his composing. Duduk will also force him to compose in a specific key, which might be constricting, or he could produce a perfectly usable simulation of the thing with other reed samples he may have. You seem to believe that not having one sample is some kind of indicator of his quality. Ryan this is plainly ridiculous and stupid thinking. Being a composer means you NEVER EVER have everything you need, and two composers might have very different sample sets. There is no prescription for creativity. Can you name me any popular piece of music that features the duduk? It's like me wanting to buy a Theremin. I've wanted one for years but unless you are doing 60s sc-fi B movies, or Good Vibrations, it's wasted money.

A good example would be if somebody thought you were a terrible film-maker because you only had a telephoto that didn't stay in focus when you zoom. If you got a good commission you'd presumably buy that better lens then?

You must stop this way of thinking - If your composer can compose, not having a sample of a terrible instrument that rarely plays in tune and honks horribly sometimes can hardly be a device for measuring his ability!!

Oh okay, I didn't think it was a terrible instrument. I just heard it in other movies scores and thought it sounded good, so I wanted him to use it as well. I can't think of popular music where it's used, just other movie scores. I can get him to get it and he can invoice me then, if that's best.

Oh okay, I didn't think it was a terrible instrument. I just heard it in other movies scores and thought it sounded good, so I wanted him to use it as well. I can't think of popular music where it's used, just other movie scores. I can get him to get it and he can invoice me then, if that's best.
Even before I got to his reply I knew the reason he wanted it, because he’s doing his copy paste method of film making.

It's not about being terrible, it's more about if it's appropriate for the film and its story. Sounding good and being appropriate are two different things, just because it's used on other films, doesn't mean it's right for your film.

THE VOICE OF DUDUK HD - YouTube

That's something to discuss with the composer,

I suspect, sadly, that your judgement is actually a bit broken. You really cannot, as others are always telling you, steal little bits you like from movies and drop them into others, expecting them to work. When you compose, you have little ideas that suddenly coalesce and sometimes the timbre of a sound is important. Having a musically illiterate person dictate instruments with no realm understanding is a recipe for a poor product.

Sorry - but you cannot just say swap a flute for an ethic instrument. Remember that our western appreciation of music assumes every note can be played, and some eastern instruments are incapable of playing every note in every key. You cannot have, for example, the music from typical Westerns played on a Duduk - they can't do it. Like wanting a Western scored in Eb to be played on a harmonica in F!

Oh okay but I think it would be appropriate for the tone I am going for.

As for a copying and paste method, I thought I would give the composer temp tracks, and one of the temp tracks has a duduk in it, which is what I wanted in the temp track. But are temp tracks too much of a copy and paste method then?

But when you say I can't swap out an instrument for another, I'm not doing any swapping am I? If I tell the composer what I want from the beginning, then there is no swapping being done, is there?

Temp tracks are an indication, something for the editor to cut to and give the composer a feel for where you're coming from in musical terms.

Oh okay, so if I want some certain instruments, like in the temp tracks, than that is not the director's call at all?

Also as for putting in temp tracks for the composer, is using tracks from other movie scores as temp tracks not a good way to go?

You can call for lots of things, but you do need to bear in mind the musical limitations of a particular instrument.

You can use anything as a temp track.

Again, discuss this with your composer.

Te,p tracks indicate style. So in your head, you have a suspense scene and are thinking music like the exorcist, but your composer might be thinking slow strings with dissonance setting you on edge. Temp tracks will help here, but it depends on the deal you have with the composer. Are they given a free hand, or are they tightly controlled and subject to constant review. Both models are possible, but I wouldn't work on one of these versions.

I would say the type of relationship I have with the composer is more specific as to what I want in a lot of pieces of the music for specific moments, but then other times, like for the opening or closing credits for example, I will say go all out and do your thing, or for a scene with more action perhaps.

There are some beats I have in my head that I cannot find temp tracks for, so I will try to put in a temp track that is close, but ask him to change the instruments. For example, I want a harmonica for this particular one, but could not find a temp track to match what I was going for. However, I found a temp track that is similar to what I want but the instrument in the temp track is a xiao. So I would have to ask him this is the rythym and beat I am going for, but not sure how I feel about the xiao and want a harmonica instead, in that type of beat.

But is that a complicated way of working?

You're expecting things to be too detailed.

When you play the film with the composer just mention that you feel that a harmonica might be good here.

The composer will find the rhythm from the pacing of the action on the screen and the editing. However, it doesn't need to Mickey Mouse, it could run counter by being lyrical while the action is fast moving blood and gore.

You can edit the temp tracks as required, if you're a good sound editor people mightn't even notice. Temp tracks are also about mood and emotion, not just about rhythm and beat.

Oh okay. But why would I edit the temp track though? What do you mean by that?

You can edit music just like you can edit dialogue etc. You just have to be a good sound editor with an ear for music.

It would allow you to set the timings of your temp track against the pictures.

I thought that was pretty obvious Ryan - if you are using commercial tracks as guides they won't be remotely the right lengths or have pick up points in the right places unless you edit them. It does sound like you make the music so difficult for the composer working like this. I would hate to be micromanaged like this and probably walk.

The more rules you set, the more 'suggestions' you impose and the more hand behind the back you make it, the creativity drops lower and lower.

You set a style, you perhaps even do it negatively - so anything you like but NOT strings. This focuses the composer. Then you let them get on with it. They could think the harmonica is far too cliche set. Don;t get involved with musical detail. You don't have the background for it.

Oh okay, are you saying I should tell a composer anything I like but not strings when you say that, or what do you mean by that?

As for a harmonica sounding cliche, I would be surprised if a composer thought that since you hardly hear it anymore in movies it seems.

Composers can have an opinion, it's how it gets used can be a cliche. Just because it's not currently used doesn't mean that the way you're using it isn't cliched because of its past use in a particular type of western scene.

Here's a use of the harmonica that creates for emotional and dramatic effect because of these past.references.

John Barry (1933-2011) - The Midnight Cowboy Theme - YouTube

However, I suspect you're not working at that level.

Oh okay. I wanted to use it as more of a suspense sound, but it's effective there as well.

It will only work if it's appropriate within the scene otherwise it could be distracting.

This is the only time I've heard the harmonica being used for suspense;

Once Upon a Time in the West - Man with a Harmonica Theme - YouTube

Okay thanks, that's pretty much what I was thinking.

Out of curiosity, since we are on the subject, would a panflute work as music during the more emotional moments? The temp track I was thinking of is at 35:58 into the this movie:

The Killer 1989 CHINESE movie - YouTube

But would a pan flute sound odd, or could it work, since that movie made it work?

Do you have any emotional sense?

You're asking questions that any audience member or filmmaker with any musical feelings and judgment would have discovered over the years. If you can't select a piece of music as a temp track without asking on a forum for an opinion, you should become a film producer, rather than a director or an editor.

We don't know anything about the context or content of the scene you're proposing to use this piece of music, so how can we pass comment.

If it feels right to you when you play it with the scene, it usually is. However, in your case, from the nature of the questions that keep asking, I don't know if that works.

To be honest, when you get something that you had to work really hard at, and in my case, take exams,meeting trivialised in this way, it makes me pretty grumpy. I can forgive the endless conversations about video and audio, because any competent person can become a camera op or sound op, but wanting to have artistic skills when they are clearly totally absent and assuming that because you have the budget and are in charge qualifies your judgement as the best one, is so wrong! One current project I am really struggling with because I am producing music for two people streets ahead of me in the musical world to perform. This is considerable pressure, even though they're both lovely and forgiving people. However, I want to give them something worthy, and it's hard.

Music for moving image is not, and never has been, a case of picking music you like. It's about picking what is appropriate based on your musical knowledge. The idea of tying a composer's hands behind their back because somebody musically inept has the money is quite demeaning to a musician. It's similar to when actors get badly directed, when they know wha they're asked to do is terrible.

Are you aware the pan flute is one of the classic cliche instruments, and is like marmite/Donald trump/American football. You either love it or hate it, nothing in between.

Why doesn’t he cut out the middle man? Take the soundtracks from the movies he likes. The temp track is the final track! With the money he saved from not hiring a composer, he could get a local band to do a cover. Of course probably have to buy them a duduk...