I shot someone's documentary project and am also editing it. It's kind of clunky as I having a lot of trouble getting all of the footage as well as his photographs to match with his script, but what do you think, or do you have any ideas as to what I can do better? Thanks for any input or advice! I really appreciate it!

I Do This For Me Rough Cut - YouTube

I can give a few comments but not sure how useful they'll be.

First thing is the story sort of rambles? He came from Vietnam, worked hard, had some knockbacks, but started weight training, and by some kind of obscure vieweing of Terminator wanted to become a body builder and go in for competitions. He then had a wife and a baby and then it stops.

He didn't explain it very well - I thought he wanted to become and actor, reinforced by him saying about going on stage - then the body building poses started and it clicked - what he was doing.

I found the entire video of him exercising and aimlessly walking very confusing? he talked about work, but all we saw was in the gym and wandering around. On top - I got confsed by the video images not matching the chronology - his sie and weight ballooning up. Suddenly we see a thin muscly man, then back to a big fella, then the morph into the grotesque mass of muscles these people do to themselves and probably the steroid abuse that is rife in that hobby/lifestyle.

The real trouble is the similarity and lack of development in his physicality? We don't see a skinny fella gradually turn into the muscleman - we have all sorts of random gym stuff and very litttle showing his eventual development? I guess he's been shooting all ths and just gave you a mass of random footage.

Some is clearly filler, and overused - like the slow fed up walk looking grumpy. The wife and kids element would have humanised it, but his life was sort of dull for 95%, then 5% of wife, child and a few on stage images.

I don't quite see the point. The church paid for entry and growth and he dumped them? His story is lacking a conclusion and development. I kind of says I came from Vietnam with nothing and owe lots of people. I worked hard and eventually became a bodybuilder. along the way, the church helped, and I moved a couple of times, and felt very sorry for myself. The material he has give you is lacking in variety and interest. all I could think about with my bad back is how dangerous what he does is!

The opening doesn't grab you, he's talking about not having any food, yet all you see are pretty pictures of people in boats on a river. Too much wallpaper footage of weight lifting, still more happy pictures over him talking about working 4 jobs,

You need to have the material to show a life story,

Okay thanks. All the footage and photos I have are from him but I don't have anything with him growing up, because he doesn't have any of that. Is there anything else I should put over top of that then to compensate?

As for the story not being that good for 95% of it I just took what he gave me and ran with it but I don't have a lot of footage of his life to back up what he is saying. What should I do therefore do you think?

I put in more videos of him exercising to fill it up with something but I'm not sure what else to do especially since it would mean having to put the videos and photos out of order with his size because he talks about his size getting bigger later on compared to earlier on, if that makes sense?

For the section where he talks about how he didn't have enough food for example, I could just cut to some shots of plates without enough food on then, but I think that would be way too on the nose if I am right?

You need pictures from that period in his country the reveal what's going on around him when he was hungry.. Plates without food don't mean anything unless there more to be seen, plus it should be the type of vessel they would be eating out of in Vietnam. That's why documentaries use a lot of library material, plus reconstructions with actors, when telling people's stories on the various history and other channels .

Overall, the film is probably too long for the story you're telling.

Oh okay thanks. Well I don't really have any footage of him growing up. As for reconstructing it with actors, where I live doesn't look anywhere like Vietnam in the 90s I don't think. But should we just do interior shots with actors and do not show the streets much or anything? Plus it's winter time now where I live and he wants it finished by January.

Have you got his words as a transcript? Treat it like your recent script work and edit it. So much is padding, so it could be chopped. He repeats so much multiple times. The odd thing is the visuals contradict the story. When he's having a hard time, we see a well fed, well nourished fella in decent surroundings. The words on their own conjure up images we simply don't see.

What are his reasons for telling the story?

Oh I don't know his reasons for telling the story. Perhaps it was something to do with wanting to get noticed in his body building career. I am doing it for someone else, and he knows more about the body builder than I do and has more contact with him.

Well I can ask if he is okay with cutting anything but I don't think he will be, because he wants me to make it longer even if possible and doesn't think 10 minutes may be enough for what he wants out of the video.

But I can ask if anything should be cut. Should I show them this latest cut first do you think?

I asked some other people and they said just use stock footage and stock photos of Vietnam, but if I have that going on for about four to five minutes, won't that just get boring? Or is that better than showing a well fed person?

Why don't you show him this? I don't understand how you never asked him the purpose? Surely to do the job you need to know the reason? That makes no sense. If you have no good material, how can you produce something good in the edit? Not really your job to source material, as - as you say, you have no clue what he wants it to do?

Sure, I can show him. I just thought maybe I should cut it better before I do, but I can show him.

I asked some other people and they said just use stock footage and stock photos of Vietnam, but if I have that going on for about four to five minutes, won't that just get boring? Or is that better than showing a well fed person?

What about what you've currently got that's exciting? If that's the background to when he's hungry and the world he has to escape from you have to show it,

It won't last five minutes if he doesn't talk about it for 5 minutes,

So you are saying that shots of mostly empty streets and buildings would be better compared to shots of him as an adult, actually doing something?

You know, this “client” has the same MO (Modus Operandi) as the martial arts guy. He wants to make a compelling movie story about this guys “rise to fame in bodybuilding” (or something like that, real reason unknown) … have the person (or you?) tell the story by using a mis-mash of material.

Remember that martial arts guy? He never caught on that he had to stay in frame to have a video of what he was doing. He never caught on that one can’t video the other side of the moon from earth (showing what was happening on the other side of his match partner) while the two of them are filmed facing the camera.

This client has no clue about what it takes to tell a story but thinks you can pull it together with this mis-mash of stuff.

Paul says it…. You need a story line.

Brian says it too - more material is needed. Try library material with pictures of what the boats are like, pictures of how life was back there and back then, with copyright permissions to use. His narration as a voice over with whatever pictures that can be found can be used. But like everything that has been said before in other threads, the story has to go from clip to clip with a good reason reason in order to make it compelling to watch. This might be done with some researched file pictures but one still must have a decent story line. And, as a director, you know about how long clips that don’t add can be b-o-r-i-n-g.

No one here knows what the Scope of Work is. That’s a term used in construction when one wants to hire a contractor to do something. In one sentence, can one write what is the Scope of Work here?

If it were me, I wouldn’t show them anything until there was an agreement on the Scope, it needs to be clarified, and, since you’re dong the work, that you need to agree to it, or the other way around, you write the Scope and they agree to it.

Oh okay. Well I told him that there wasn't a lot of material he had for the first half and he just said to fill it in with what you can and try to make it work. So that's what I've been trying to do. Do you think I should just use photographs of Vietnam of buildings and streets while he's talking and that's it pretty much then?

So you are saying that shots of mostly empty streets and buildings would be better compared to shots of him as an adult, actually doing something?

No, you select material that reflect the times he was going hungry and what they're escaping from, so that his words carry some weight, Any stills should reflect his hard times and not just be pretty tourist board pictures. .

Hi Ryan
You have the essentials for a great documentary here - specifically a strong (no pun intended) main character, what they are are trying to accomplish. There are some helpful suggestions above. I think it could be improved if you identify a theme and put a stronger focus on a main issue - there's a whole lot to choose from. I always think documentaries are strengthened if you can identify and bring out some social criticism. I suggest listen to the audio (maybe with your eyes closed) and note down possible related images as you do so. Seek related images. Cut the repetition. Think about using "Ken Burns" effect to make static images more interesting. Looking forward to next cut.

Thinking a bit more - he knows why he wanted to move from Vietnam to America. That's clear in his mind, so much so, he assumes we understand. I think perhaps we 'think' we understand, but I doubt we do. We have stereotypical history in our head, but I suspect younger people have no idea at all. There was a war. Lots of people died on both sides. Now it is a holiday destination. The world understands refugees and the lands of the free - we have a stream of refugees entering the UK at the moment, doing the last 30 miles in frail boats and lots die. This kind of stuff is the emotive content. A fella coming to the US and Canada to join a weight lifting society is probably NOT what this is about. In the pictures he suddenly grew a wife and child - they just magically appear in his story as a kind of afterthought, the weight training gets more emphasis than family? He MUST have images of them, who perhaps have a similar back story. That's an interest feature that a little re-write could let enter the story, and downplay the repetitive parts. Did he actually explain why he wanted to leave? How he got there. The church seem to have paid for it then he dumped them? Lots of loose ends to be tied. He task of religion but not one image of it?

I'm not trying to discourage you but many of us tried to persuade you to do many of these small type projects to get better at directing and visual story telling. This is all the stuff you need to learn by doing. The more you can practice thinking for yourself instead asking others or trying to copy feature movies, the more independent you'll become.

Over all the movie lacks direction and purpose. I gather he has asked you to do a puff piece on himself and you're taking your direction from him. It's odd because there is no A-roll, video of him being interviewed. Instead it's all b-roll that has been quickly thrown together, many sections as people have pointed out doesn't match the tone and content. What I'm seeing here is something I'd expect from someone first learning video, it's not very dynamic, interesting, or well thought out. Where are the interviews from his friends and family? We only have audio of the subject clearly reading a prepared script... Not good.


If you must copy others for your ideas then I'd recommend watching a few good short documentaries. Independent Lens come to mind.

My impression is that you have been asked to do this project pro-bono or for a smalliish fee, handed a boxful of not enough pieces and asked to put it back together again.

There is a middleman involved which can only muddy the waters if he is not trained in documentary. You have no brief except perhaps to put together a slideshow around his existing recorded oral history.


What is the purpose of the presentation?

Is it intended to be a showreel piece for yourself?

Is it intended to be a documentary?

Is it intended to be a slideshow behind a personal testimony witnessing to and affirming his Catholic faith?

Is it intended to be a record for his family in case he buys the farm whilst he is peaking for the next contest?

Does he want to do a big Arnie and transition into the entertainment industry?

He seems to be a person of singular determination but also maybe selfcentred. The brief such as it is should have been nailed down directly with him, not an intermediary.

My sense is that you need to rejig the relationship between you and your client and set some agreed firm guildelines. There can only be one director and he has to be on his A game.

If he is not prepared to be subordinate to you as director/editor, have a paper edit done on his transcripted dialogue or far better, be interviewed on camera prompted by key points out of his oral history, frankly, I would hand him the existing piece, say "sorry I cannot work like this" and walk away.

I would be asking myself, how much of my own finite life do I really want to invest in this. What is the payoff for me. If it is doing a favour, I am fine with that, so long as I am not self-flagellating to no good cause.

If as a slideshow it must remain unchanged, then to "de-clunk" the presentation, my personal preference would be :-

resize and crop to reframe all the still images to look better,

scale them down into windows with thick black borders,

move their position on the screen so that no one image occupies the same exact space in the black, sort of like an old-style photo album.

window his motion footage smaller and perhaps crop for more natural headroom if necessary. Resizing in a black border will increase the "apparent" sharpness of the images.

Use "dip to black" for your transitions from still image to still image. Depending upon your NLE, you may need to make short gaps between each image for the dip to blacks and rise from blacks to attach front and rear of each clip.

If you can persuade him to be interviewed, then display that footage in normal size. His talking head or talking walk-along will be a far better core and anchor for the presentation and the existing material you have will be more than enough to use as cutaways.

Shoot some footage of him with his partner and infant, maybe showing him striking some builder poses and as a bonus the little kid might even try to emulate. Maybe even use this as your head bookend.

This link will take you to a slideshow which I did pro-bono for a friend-family on supplied material including the original music performed by a family member. Its purpose was to be a continuous playing loop on a screen as background to a gathering.

A LONG LIFE WELL LIVED FIRST EDIT - YouTube

It should not be seen as a shining example of what you should do because it most definitely is not but may offer some clues on "de-clunking" your presentation.

For its purpose, beyond some older images which opened the presentation, the images were randomised so that over any short bracket of time that someone might watch before engaging in conversation, all historical periods were more or less covered.

It is not a Hollywood piece by any stretch and I have done better work. It was what the family wanted and that was what they got.

Finally take more notice of better practitioners than I who offer comment here.

My impression is that you have been asked to do this project pro-bono or for a smalliish fee, handed a boxful of not enough pieces and asked to put it back together again.
This sums it up nicely

My impression is that you have been asked to do this project pro-bono or for a smalliish fee, handed a boxful of not enough pieces and asked to put it back together again.

There is a middleman involved which can only muddy the waters if he is not trained in documentary. You have no brief except perhaps to put together a slideshow around his existing recorded oral history.


What is the purpose of the presentation?

Is it intended to be a showreel piece for yourself?

Is it intended to be a documentary?

Is it intended to be a slideshow behind a personal testimony witnessing to and affirming his Catholic faith?

Is it intended to be a record for his family in case he buys the farm whilst he is peaking for the next contest?

Does he want to do a big Arnie and transition into the entertainment industry?

He seems to be a person of singular determination but also maybe selfcentred. The brief such as it is should have been nailed down directly with him, not an intermediary.

My sense is that you need to rejig the relationship between you and your client and set some agreed firm guildelines. There can only be one director and he has to be on his A game.

If he is not prepared to be subordinate to you as director/editor, have a paper edit done on his transcripted dialogue or far better, be interviewed on camera prompted by key points out of his oral history, frankly, I would hand him the existing piece, say "sorry I cannot work like this" and walk away.

I would be asking myself, how much of my own finite life do I really want to invest in this. What is the payoff for me. If it is doing a favour, I am fine with that, so long as I am not self-flagellating to no good cause.

If as a slideshow it must remain unchanged, then to "de-clunk" the presentation, my personal preference would be :-

resize and crop to reframe all the still images to look better,

scale them down into windows with thick black borders,

move their position on the screen so that no one image occupies the same exact space in the black, sort of like an old-style photo album.

window his motion footage smaller and perhaps crop for more natural headroom if necessary. Resizing in a black border will increase the "apparent" sharpness of the images.

Use "dip to black" for your transitions from still image to still image. Depending upon your NLE, you may need to make short gaps between each image for the dip to blacks and rise from blacks to attach front and rear of each clip.

If you can persuade him to be interviewed, then display that footage in normal size. His talking head or talking walk-along will be a far better core and anchor for the presentation and the existing material you have will be more than enough to use as cutaways.

Shoot some footage of him with his partner and infant, maybe showing him striking some builder poses and as a bonus the little kid might even try to emulate. Maybe even use this as your head bookend.

This link will take you to a slideshow which I did pro-bono for a friend-family on supplied material including the original music performed by a family member. Its purpose was to be a continuous playing loop on a screen as background to a gathering.

A LONG LIFE WELL LIVED FIRST EDIT - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk0u5zMU3W0)

It should not be seen as a shining example of what you should do because it most definitely is not but may offer some clues on "de-clunking" your presentation.

For its purpose, beyond some older images which opened the presentation, the images were randomised so that over any short bracket of time that someone might watch before engaging in conversation, all historical periods were more or less covered.

It is not a Hollywood piece by any stretch and I have done better work. It was what the family wanted and that was what they got.

Finally take more notice of better practitioners than I who offer comment here.

I am not sure which one of those is his intent, but I would say it's more like this one perhaps:


"Does he want to do a big Arnie and transition into the entertainment industry?

I can talk him into an interview it's just that he studders a lot if he is not reading from the page, so in the interview section, he will be studdering a lot more compared to when he read of the page, so it may not match as a result?

He helped me on one of my projects, so I am doing this to return the favor.