Currently, the odds are that life will get close to normal by the summer.

I don't mean to brag, but I really think if we try hard enough, here in the USA we can keep the current situation going til mid 2023.

I guess I just had trouble seeing a light at the end of the tunnel with covid. Well I could just get back to storyboarding it then. And storyboard the shots I actually want, rather than shots for covid restrictions.

Had you already set a shooting date for the script that is the finished, storyboard hardly touched and composer totally confused. It does seem you’re nowhere remotely near shooting so why are you even worrying about changing things. Finish the script. Produce your story boards then fix a date. This means for you, the summer doesn’t it?

Yeah the summer would be nice. I can finish the storyboards then. Out of all the storyboarding programs that are free, is there one that is better than the rest. I've tried a few but they are not as good. Unless the paying ones are worth getting.

I've tried just drawing it myself, but I have trouble keeping the characters looking consistant which can lead to confusion as to which character is which in the more complicated shots.

Practice is the best method of improving drawing.

Just put a distinctive feature on each character, so that they stand out from the others.

or just write their names literally anywhere on them, or near them.

Yes, shockingly, products that are NOT given away for free are often superior to competing products that ARE given away for free

Oh well, it's just the paying ones, you can move the characters around in 3d environments where as I just wanted still images. But I guess the paying ones are better for those as well. Is it worth doing the storyboards before having most of the locations yet, or is it still good to do preliminary ones to get ideas of how it will all be, and related to budget do you think?

I guess I just had trouble seeing a light at the end of the tunnel with covid.
If there is no light at the end of the tunnel then we will end up with a much smaller world population, a collapsed world economy, and everyone trying to figure out what their new life will be. Certainly an amateur movie will have no significance to the universe. In which case you won't be making amateur movies in the future. So maybe you should temporarily stop all the endless mental flagellation and instead consider a new hobby, and possibly figure out what you will be doing -- for real -- a year or two from now.

Is it worth doing the storyboards before having most of the locations yet, or is it still good to do preliminary ones to get ideas of how it will all be, and related to budget do you think?

If you don't know what the locations look like, it's difficult to do detailed storyboards.

You can do rough ones, which may or may not change, but I recall doing a short where the storyboard artist (who later did "Game of Thrones") came down on the location recce. The director talked him through the shots he was thinking of and on the shoot you could often pick the focal length of the lens based on the drawings.

Other storyboards aren't as detailed. just blobs with big noses, while others, produced by ad agencies, had hardly any detail and often ignored apart from key points. The latter were often intended for the clients and the director was expected to do better,on the actual production.

I have never used a PROGRAM to do a storyboard in my life! 3D environments!! Sounds like you want your storyboards to be a movie in themselves. I often have to provide drawings for people to work to. I'm rubbish at art, but plans I am rather good at. So I can draw 2D or 3D plans in various projections using paper, or on a computer. Computers are great, but I learned a long time ago that sometimes the time taken to do them is pointless - the question is who are they for? What will they be needed for? The number of times I have discovered what I was provided with was originally a plan with DO NOT SCALE FROM THIS DRAWING, that got copied and copied each copy distorting the sizes. I'd then redraw it and things didn't fit! a wall clearly parallel wasn't, a clearance height lower in reality so things wouldn't fit. I'd spend hours on a drawing with details that were not needed. A storyboard is able to tell the story, you can see where the camera is and you can see which way it points. You can see who is close, who is distant, how the features fit together - the door on the left, the switch on the wall right, the window with curtains closed, the church visible in the distance. Storyboards answer huge numbers of questions. Crew can set up in the right way, even actors, many of whom cannot read a plan well enough to find the location, can see if they are close to where they should be. Nobody is surprised by the fire engine in the car park - this kind of thing. Then the Director wants things moved a little or a lot. None of this requires high definition computer generated reality, because I've never seen a still that matches the storyboard exactly.

Some people are artistic and have great storyboards, others are almost stick men, but stick men with hats, or holding things, or with happy sad faces? If you have a big production budget then spending money on software might be OK, but you also have to have time to learn how to work the thing. I'm very happy with technology, but my storyboards are four or 8 rectangles on a sheet of A4 in landscape.

Have you some great purpose for really detailed rendering? Whatever you do, they will still be wrong when the camera is looking at the scene and you will need to tweak.

My experience of technology and actors is that you still need to explain. Giving them a piece of paper doesn't work. If you give it to the DoP they will still want to adjust things, the lighting people will still move their kit. Sound won't even bother to look at them, and the other people will glance and still ask questions. Look at the published story boards for well known movies - theyre often scribbles. How many of those had art quality renders?

I'm gonna give this one to Ryan.

programs like frameforge allow you to create or recreate an entire set in perfect detail and pose characters, props etc anywhere. Basically you could recreate (if you wanted to spend the time) a house with correct scale, window placements etc etc.

There's an example on their site of how the DP/director/whataever used it to figure out if a certain sequence on Downton Abbey would work with two locations that were 600 miles apart or something by recreating them and verifying they had enough room in a hallway for a dolly to work etc.

For someone of Ryan's obsessive detail and seemingly endless free time, it might be perfect.

Wow! That's pretty decent. I wonder how difficult it is to master? 800 is a fairly steep price for an amateur though? Petty cash for Downton though.

I think Ryan should buy it and show us the renders, then we'd understand better.

Jeez, didnt know it cost that much but yes its pretty powerful...can even do some rudimentary animation so you can watch a dolly shot or something play out, not just export stills.

Im sure its as difficult as anything else...Pro Tools, an NLE, whatever. Work with it for a while each day for a few weeks and once you know where everything is in the menus and keyboard shortcuts and quickest ways to execute common tasks one could probably do things reasonably fast.

Maybe you could produce Ryans movie as a animated one - he not have to worry about locations and cast and crew and you could dub the audio on? Could be an interesting concept. I've got a draughting app that lets you design rooms, add furniture and things (and people) - and it lets you animate a camera for a walkthrough. Never occurred to me but you could set up a scene like this. It also has lighting options too? Never thought about using this?

Yes it does lighting too. I've only messed with a little bit, but seems very cool if you need that much preplanning detail (which some productions do). Honestly, for anything I'd work on, a scout and some simple diagrams for lighting plans, shot list, etc. would probably do, BUT I'm small time.

Yes, I can see Ryan's movie as an animated piece, sort of a saturday morning cartoon thing. Maybe all the characters are children. I dunno. Just thinking out the box here.

Maybe you could produce Ryans movie as a animated one - he not have to worry about locations and cast and crew and you could dub the audio on? Could be an interesting concept.
Imagining this made me laugh

There are two versions of Frameforge, the Core version and the Studio version. The former would be the one for indies, it's $12.99 per month subscription, if you don't want to pay the $500 full purchase price,

Joking aside, if the plan drawing element is good enough, I actually could use this to visualise stage sets. The existing stuff does the lighting very well but is limited in the textural detail so people are limited, so while you can do a guitarist, downtown abbey would be tricky! Hmm.

Im sure there are plenty of youtube vids about it and theres a demo/trial you can play with that has limited features and assets (people, props etc)

Maybe you could produce Ryans movie as a animated one - he not have to worry about locations and cast and crew and you could dub the audio on? Could be an interesting concept. I've got a draughting app that lets you design rooms, add furniture and things (and people) - and it lets you animate a camera for a walkthrough. Never occurred to me but you could set up a scene like this. It also has lighting options too? Never thought about using this?

Well I also thought about doing an animated movie because of covid, but it was said on here before that animation would cost more than live action shooting.

They were joking, Ryan.

Yeah I thought so. But when it comes to using frame forge, I have watched tutorials, but are you suppose to print the storyboards on paper after? Or are you suppose to have a laptop on set for reference to the storyboards, instead of paper?

Literally whatever works for you.

Who is on your distribution list? Will they be able to cope with a screen, as in laptop, pad, phone etc, or does their role mean paper is better? Some folk will already have paper for other things, while others will be using a pad or similar already. For my normal crew of 6, two always want paper, the other 4 don't even have a pen!

One thing - test your preliminary versions on them to see if they can understand them. Never assume people have the skills you assume they have. People are extremely variable!

They were joking, Ryan.

It depends if you're paying people and the time involved in doing the animation. If you can do the animation yourself, it just costs your own time.

Yes I would have to pay an animator to do it, and I assume that might cost more than having to pay a small production crew to help shoot a movie.

Who is on your distribution list? Will they be able to cope with a screen, as in laptop, pad, phone etc, or does their role mean paper is better? Some folk will already have paper for other things, while others will be using a pad or similar already. For my normal crew of 6, two always want paper, the other 4 don't even have a pen!

One thing - test your preliminary versions on them to see if they can understand them. Never assume people have the skills you assume they have. People are extremely variable!

Well I could storyboard in frameforge or something like that, and be ready for paper or latpop depending on what they prefer later, if that's best. It's just that frameforge might be overkill to use, if they want paper, in which case, you do not get the camera movement that frameforge supplies. So maybe therefore a cheaper program might be better if more people prefer paper.

You're the director, it's mostly for you, rather than other people. You can show the crew the scene on your laptop on the day of the shoot or on the recce, actors won't be be that interested, since they have other considerations than the shots.

For my pantomimes, I would have from the production company, accurate plans of the sets and during the rehearsals when the actors got confused about where things would be I'd pull out the folder and show them a plan. 90% of them would instantly glaze over and obviously just not get it, so I'd pull out photographs of the set showing where everything was. So many times we'd get to the real stage and their set for the first time and I'd inwardly laugh when they'd misunderstood everything. All they want is for the director to say you start sitting here, you get upon and walk too here. This is what I meant about giving them what they want. Some on the distribution list may just not be interested or need them.

Ask your self what the storyboard is for - who wants them and what use are they. Stick men and a scribble can be photocopied and cost nothing. Putting hours into a storyboard using software could be a big waste off time (and money).

I would assume itll be him, the dp, a sound guy, and the actors. MAYBE one other grip/electric?

Yeah that sounds about right, plus make up. But make up will not want to see them of course.

I meant that will be the TOTALITY of your crew. Probably out of those positions I mentioned it'd be DP and possibly the grip/electric who would need to see the storyboards. Just tell your actors where to stand/move.

Oh okay. I also thought I should show the sound person as well, of course.

Nope. They will decide that after actually seeing the shot on camera.

Oh okay, it's just in my experience I prefer to see it beforehand because there may be problems that can be addressed beforehand, compared to when the camera is set up, and thus less times to solve those problems. But I can try to creating storyboards that are more boom friendly.

That's just you, the boom operator doesn't need to see the storyboard in order to do their job. It would be like a battle plan, it works until the first shots are fired. Any problems can usually be seen when the director is blocking out with the actors.

Also, you can't tell the lighting from a storyboard, that can also affect where you can position the mic boom because of the shadows.

This is just you doing your management thing Ryan. You assume that other people would want to work like you, and they don’t. You want to ‘help’ the composer, the DoP, the cast, the crew, everyone by inflicting your way of working on them. If you have somebody to do makeup, are you sending them photos from movies you like so they get the style of the makeup? Have you sent them a lipstick colour chart, or examples of eyeshadow colour. Are you buying them an airbrush kit because pad application can be seen in HD, let alone 4K? Can your storyboard do costume and makeup?

Storyboards help those that need them, and invariably the details they want are not the ultra quality renders software can produce. Yours will look great, and instantly fall over when circumstances change and you have to adapt, as in every production so far, when you have to change script, locations and people.

Don’t give Ryan any more ideas on how to micro manage this movie to death. You’re right. I could see him trying to tell the makeup artist how to do her job supplying her with stills from movies he wants to emulate and color strips.

Oh well I would just talk to the make up artist about what the movie would look like and then hear the ideas they would have I thought.

I am having some challenges getting use to FramgeForge. I think maybe I will just draw out the storyboards myself but does it come off as unprofessional if the drawings are bad?

When I see storyboards of professional movies that have been made, when storyboards are discussed, they always look good. I never see really unprofessionally drawn ones. So would those make a bad impression?

I've never had a piece of artwork as a storyboard. who cares? They are private documents and not public - if they are scribbles that work, nobody cares? If as we've said, you have serious problems elsewhere, nobody is interested in them.

Martin Scorsese's storyboards are fairly rough affairs, more high school level than a professional artist's work. All they need to do is get the shot ideas across to the camera crew and the art department, so they know what to dress on the set.

(a comment to an earlier question) If you watch TV being produced under covid guidelines, it's very strange - in one two people who are having an illicit affair were kissing - I thought how weird this was and illegal probably, but then discovered the two actors are actually married - so for them it's fine - yet everyone else is 2m apart and it makes the thing very obviously a covid production. In years to come, we'll watch TV reruns and movies and say - 2020/2021 - it's that obvious.

If you get everyone to have an injection and probably have to pay for them, it doesn't mean everything is safe - there will be cases of people who are not immunised, and of course, our isolation doesn't mean we're immune to other infectious diseases, and the separation for covid means we're perhaps more likely to get flu and the other things. Unless you really need to produce the movie now, don't. Especially as your cast and crew will not be that keen.

To add to that, even when you ARE vaccinated, you are still not immune; it’s just an extra layer of protection. STILL need masks and distancing. This is per a doctor friend of mine who deals with this stuff every day. I donf know about Saskatoon or rest of world but here in the US we are still a long, long way from normal.

Well there have been movies made during the pandemic that have come out, so the government is doing something to give them special circumstances. Mine cannot get recognized as a professional production, but if I can, then I can hopefully get those government granted circumstances that others are acquiring.

Theyre following strict protocols you wont be able to afford (cost of on set testing, medic, etc) to enforce and those actors are getting proper industry rates to make it worth it for them, that you also cant afford.

Being honest Ryan, it isn't a professional production, it's an amateur one, and your trying to make it as high quality as you can. You are trying to emulate some of the things professional production companies do, but that doesn't make it 'professional' either in legal reality or quality. There have been amateur, cheap and really good movies and simply awful professional ones. With your amateur cast and somewhat random crew, and a director producer who runs around planning his heart out, but having to cope with indifferent and uninterested composers, dodgy locations with silly rules, makes it far from professional in real terms. It's a one-man band with a mix of hired help and volunteers, with no responsibility and from what we've seen from some, any real interest. People do seem to be involved because they have nothing better to do. Covid will mean you will become more stretched, and even more things will go wrong forcing you to abandon your careful planning and find new locations, new bits of script and new actors when they get ill, or bored.

Can you not see these issues from previous movies have not been resolved. Did you not learn from Timewine and the two silly guys and their martial arts, that proper planning must be followed. You lost the battle with things outside your control big time - what has changed?

wait for covid to be over, and your people will have such a better time. I feel awkward in the line at the post office when some idiot without a mask comes in and nobody has the courage to stand up to them.

Oh okay, but I don't think it's going to be over, and I think covid is hear to stay for the next generation, so I thought I would therefore have to make the best of it.

Then movie making is dead.

Covid 19 is going to be around. like flu and other diseases that exist. That's why people should get vaccinated, so that there is a herd immunity. It's possible for certain jobs it's requirement that you must have the jabs and possibly keep them up to date as new variants come out.