I don't like to come off like I am judging or criticizing another director I am working for, I just want to make the best product I can for them, when I say this. I was hired to be a colorist on a web series project, and it's a good paying job so far. However, the director wants me to color grade it all on a cellphone. I can't use a computer because all their computers are being used by other people in the crew. And they do not want me putting the footage on my own computer.

So therefore, they supply the computer the footage is on for me to grade, but instead of providing me a computer they give me a cellphone to do it all on. I just find grading tough to do on a small screen and hard for me to use a cellphone keypad to do it as opposed to a computer keyboard and mouse.

I told them this, but the director really wants me to do it on a phone. I didn't get the producers take on it, but felt it's not my place to ask them, and just stick with working with the director, but what do you think? Should I try to convince them more that a computer would work a lot better for this? Or is a cellphone adequate and just do what they want even if it's more difficult that way?

Walk away. Even I know it's impossible to colour grade on a phone. And this far to late for an April fool.

Real people doing this job spend LOTS of money on accurate monitors - the kind I certainly don't have or could remotely justify. I can't believe these people are so clueless as to pay money for something that is pointless. They sound like they know job roles and use the jargon but clearly have no clue whatsoever what a colonist does. The are suffering from paranoia too - they wan t you to work for them but are so protective about the material they won't allow it to be on anything other than a phone. What kind of phone can store the length of a movie in 1080, let alone higher qualities - a movie length feature will be giga bites of storage and that won't fit on a phone. The image can't be displayed on a phone at realistic or accurate colours - phones simply do not have the capabilities, and even more - will the popular colonists software run on a phone?

Sometimes Ryan you nee to learn to stop taking people at face value - because working with idiots like these just confuses you more. I do know that if I was offered a colourist's role, I'd not take it because I know little about it, other than I'm not good.

Real people doing this job spend LOTS of money on accurate monitors - the kind I certainly don't have or could remotely justify. I can't believe these people are so clueless as to pay money for something that is pointless. They sound like they know job roles and use the jargon but clearly have no clue whatsoever what a colonist does. The are suffering from paranoia too - they wan t you to work for them but are so protective about the material they won't allow it to be on anything other than a phone. What kind of phone can store the length of a movie in 1080, let alone higher qualities - a movie length feature will be giga bites of storage and that won't fit on a phone. The image can't be displayed on a phone at realistic or accurate colours - phones simply do not have the capabilities, and even more - will the popular colonists software run on a phone?

Sometimes Ryan you nee to learn to stop taking people at face value - because working with idiots like these just confuses you more. I do know that if I was offered a colourist's role, I'd not take it because I know little about it, other than I'm not good.

Yeah the entire movie is not stored on a phone at once, I just take edited clips and color them a few at a time. But yes they do not know a lot about filmmaking, and hired others who know more to help, but they do not want to take my advice, if it means getting me a keyboard and monitor. I had one the first two days, they just changed their mind on the third day and have to have someone else use that one, for the last few days now, and me with the phone.

You can't grade on a phone.

If they can't operate in professional manner you walk away. You're the one who'll get the blame if they get criticism because of poor colour correction. As Paul says, the colour correction software won't work on a phone so you just have to tell them.

There are some productions that are worth struggling with basic kit, but this is less than basic.

Oh okay, but I am on a signed contract, and it's a paying job, and because of covid, I do like having a job where I am making money at the moment. But I see your point.

In the industry if a person is blamed for bad color, for example, or even bad cinematography, do the people who are blamed ever say they were just giving the director what they asked for, or is it not good to say that? I could also go over the director's head in a sense, and go to the producer and voice the concern and show the producer a side by side comparison, of the first days when I had a proper coloring suite, compared to the last few days of the cellphone, and show the first two days were much better, as it will be obvious, unless I should not do that?

This is like taking a live sound job and being handed a megaphone instead of a PA system, or a camera job and being handed a twenty year old Sony 8mm. If they have gone to the trouble of issuing contracts - then asking for the correct tools to do the job is contractually sound - the contract presumably gives the job title - so ask for appropriate equipment to protect your reputation.

In the industry if a person is blamed for bad color, for example, or even bad cinematography, do the people who are blamed ever say they were just giving the director what they asked for, or is it not good to say that? I could also go over the director's head in a sense, and go to the producer and voice the concern and show the producer a side by side comparison, of the first days when I had a proper coloring suite, compared to the last few days of the cellphone, and show the first two days were much better, as it will be obvious, unless I should not do that?

Giving what the director what he wants visually or stylistically is different to being told to use a tool which is totally inappropriate and is slowing you down. Using a phone as a camera is different to using it as a post production tool. Yes, you can do it, but it's a pain.

Given the tools now available at pretty low cost for remote editing, there's no reason to be using a phone for colour correction..

If the director won't listen, you should discuss the matter with the producer, because it's going to affect their schedule.


.

You could go to the Director. Oh wait. You are the director?
"For a feature film, I feel that I cannot direct the entire thing myself and that I need another director to direct some of it. I was advised before not to have a co-director because it's a bad idea, but is can I have some sort of second in command director, or I am I stuck directing the entire movie myself, and that's the best way to go?"

To be fair, this appears to be different to the feature film. This involves other people, although, it does seem to have the same bottom end issues.

Oh yes, I am working for another director and producer.

On a cellphone?! Are these people for real? Is your question for real?

Perhaps the director is intentionally making the job miserable in an effort to get you to break your contract. Maybe he wants to be rid of you, but for legal reasons he doesn't want to be the one to break the contract.

Others have advised you to get yourself out of this mess, and that seems to be a good idea ... if there are no bad repercussions.

Before you signed the contract, did you have your attorney review the language? Maybe now would be a good time to do that.

It may be possible to view the editing application on a monitor or TV screen with the use of an adapter for the smart phone. For the iPhone there is a nifty HDMI adapter called “Apple Lightning to Digital AV adapter” that should be available locally, either for an iPhone or the type that you’re using. Connect it to your existing monitor and there’d be a lot more area to work with.

Then get a keyboard to work with the phone to use the keyboard shortcuts with the application, then you’re almost there (like working on a computer).

I don't like to come off like I am judging or criticizing another director I am working for, I just want to make the best product I can for them, when I say this. I was hired to be a colorist on a web series project, and it's a good paying job so far. However, the director wants me to color grade it all on a cellphone. I can't use a computer because all their computers are being used by other people in the crew. And they do not want me putting the footage on my own computer.

So therefore, they supply the computer the footage is on for me to grade, but instead of providing me a computer they give me a cellphone to do it all on. I just find grading tough to do on a small screen and hard for me to use a cellphone keypad to do it as opposed to a computer keyboard and mouse.

I told them this, but the director really wants me to do it on a phone. I didn't get the producers take on it, but felt it's not my place to ask them, and just stick with working with the director, but what do you think? Should I try to convince them more that a computer would work a lot better for this? Or is a cellphone adequate and just do what they want even if it's more difficult that way?

I think you are pulling our legs - no one in even 3% of their right mind would ever suggest CC on a phone. Absurd! Or perhaps you are relaying a bad dream you've had - but this cannot be for real.

It’s real.

Source: see EVERY OTHER RYAN THREAD

Post #1 “… So therefore, they supply the computer the footage is on for me to grade, but instead of providing me a computer they give me a cellphone to do it all on.”

#4 “the entire movie is not stored on a phone at once, I just take edited clips and color them a few at a time.” ….. “I had one [monitor, and keyboard?] the first two days, they just changed their mind on the third day and have to have someone else use that one, for the last few days now, and me with the phone.”

He guys, I don’t know where Ryan is with this job. In one place I got the feellng he is plugging away with it but in another place I got the idea he may have dropped it and gone on to antheor gig. Or, …. maybe the problem doesn’t exist any more. I don’t know. But, if there is a low bar for the deliverables (that’s a posability), and if he is still plugging away with the phone, then there are some low-cost options to make life a little easier and still not use the computer. Just thought I’d mention them. (please don’t kill the messenger!)

An old construction or design saying: "If you want it bad, you get it bad"
also, in contracts, "Say what you want or you get what you don't need"
A signed contract can cut both ways and we have no clue what this one specifies. I'd be looking for "out of scope", "extra work", or "unforeseen conditions".

Only this week I got a client ask me if I could give him an idea what the unforeseen extra costs would be on a theatre job. The irony is that the job is to do half a dozen theatres with a clairvoyant show.

An old construction or design saying: "If you want it bad, you get it bad"
also, in contracts, "Say what you want or you get what you don't need"
A signed contract can cut both ways and we have no clue what this one specifies. I'd be looking for "out of scope", "extra work", or "unforeseen conditions".

And don't forget "force majeure."

How about "We build your bad design exactly to spec."
And the oldie "Good, fast, inexpensive ... you can have any two of the three."

Greg,
And don't forget "force majeure."

How about "We build your bad design exactly to spec."
And the oldie "Good, fast, inexpensive ... you can have any two of the three."

Those are good.Really like this one:
How about "We build your bad design exactly to spec."

Another thing about the color grading, is that they shoot the web series on iphones, and the exposure is automatic and not manual so it changes exposure during shooting, if subjects move around, or if the camera moves.

So it's challenging to fix all the exposure changes in post. Or maybe that's my job as a colorist and that's good because it's giving me work? :)

Or should I try to nicely mention the idea how a better camera can give them manual exposure options?

I think we are wasting time on this one Ryan. Your job roles are the amateur organisations normality. Give the titles but don’t do it like the real world. They probably have a director of photography too, because he has the latest iPhone. Now you’ve explained, your phone will be totally suitable, because you wont be doing a colourists job at all, you’ll just be playing. It’s a movie club, which is fine, but it’s not real. If they can make real money with paying people, and using amateur gear, that’s damn good.

Well I have seen short films shot on cellphones or so they claimed, and they have manual exposure that is locked, unless all the exposure changes were color corrected in those as well likely?

Drama films shot on phones use Filmic Pro or similar, which allow manual exposure. However, the colour grading in post will be limited (because of the compression, it's 8bit and probably 4.2.0), rather like your DSLR has limitations.

However, they probably aren't colour grading on the phones, they're likely to be using a computer,

Only yesterday I was usuing Mavis, which I have on my phone, and it can shoot in so many modes but all use a small chip and rotten old lens. If you have shots that work with the limitation, that’s fine, but this is exactly why sales of real camera are so strong. You can tell a story on anything, if that story makes format irrelevant.

We could make movies on gopros because look wise, they can be stunning. In general though, we don’t.

I’m using FilmicPro on my iPhone for nonprofit project for gimbal shots. FilmicPro has the ability to control the white balance and lock it at any temperature but you must remember to do so. Color grading would be done on the computer like with any normal camera. Its not hard to read between the lines that either you or the amateur project you’re working with can’t afford a proper computer for grading or trying to take a shortcut instead of following accepted methods. Working exclusively on your phone is popular for low end social media app like tiktok. This new phone based paradigm is for creating daily social media content.

In the words of Greg Miller, “We make your bad movie exactly to spec.” Or, like you want it.

Ryan, this is my two cents: take their money and run! (but your mileage may vary)
Fixing exposure chages in post may be onerous, but like you’re thinking, it is giveing you work and making money. Just do what you can with what you’ve got and try not to get ulsers over it.

Just guessing, their business model apparently appeals to the low-end YouTube’ers because it looks slightly better, or the story line makes up for it. If it makes them money, then that’s what it’s all about; and same with you, of course. Think of it this way, you can find out how their system works, and think about how parts of it can be used on your project to lower cost but at the same time produce a better product.

In the mean time, if there is a way to deal with the exposure changes that can save work effort, don’t tell them how to do it and keep it to yourself. Heck, don’t even tell ‘em you’ve done it! If you tell them how, then theyll tell the next “colorist” on their next job (who under bid you) how you did it. That will be YOUR idea and is not for sale.

On another note, I’ve played around with my iPhone 12 and, I have to say, the HDR video with stabilization is, frankly, very impressive, (when re-played back on the phone). But like you mentioned, the exposure changes from light to dark in a scene isn’t good. I’ve got some really nice looking still shots with it. We got a kitten a few months ago and I’ve got a lot of cat-growing-up videos now. This is what Covid does ….

Oh okay thanks for the input. I will do it that way, get paid then run. Thanks.

Also, out of curiosity, the iphone looks good to shoot on if you want deep focus which will be good for mastershots under low light. But I don't like the expansion in the short focal length. Can the autofocus be locked as well, so it doesn't switch focus accidentally, or no?

Low light won't be a strong point for small sensors if you're concerned about noise..

My old grandad used to say use the right tool for the right job and it's always worked for me. I'm lucky enough to have a very nice mic collection - Yesterday I used a mic for a job - it did exactly what I needed and it cost less than £30. I could have used a mic that cost two grand, but the cheap one was the most appropriate.

With Ryan's project, it could be most appropriate to shoot on phones, I can think of a number of scenarios, but as soon as you move away from a phone size screen for viewing, the compromises jump out at you. I wonder what it would be like on the front row in a real cinema with big screen? My phone, ON my phone screen looks great but I always feel a little compromised. I got a negative comment on my YouTube channel about a shot where it was a 1920x1080 frame that I'd gone a little wild with the zoom to make it fit the frame - and a person who noticed, took the time to mention it. The others who saw it couldn't;t be bothered our didn't notice? This was quite revealing to me. Quality does matter once you drop below some random threshold. I always lag. SD 4:3 to 16:9 was two years behind, SD to 720HD was late, 720 to 1080 was late, and while I have the ability to shoot in 4K, I am not yet doing it and again, it's probably some way ahead for me. I don't like being a pioneer. I cannot however, subscribe to the sort of projects that have phones as requirements - to me that's like the fad in music of adding surface noise and crackle for art, or any form of lo-fi treatment.

Tagging on to what Paul said:
My old grandad used to say use the right tool for the right job ......

With Ryan's project, it could be most appropriate to shoot on phones, I can think of a number of scenarios, but as soon as you move away from a phone size screen for viewing, the compromises jump out at you. I wonder what it would be like on the front row in a real cinema with big screen? ......

Example: The picture of "Paul Anderegg's" wide-angle lens on my cam looks good on the web page (at least it does to me), but zoom in and, well, it starts to not look so good. Would not want to sho it on the big screen!, and probably not even on a TV. If it doesn't look so good on my 2012 MB laptop, you know it isn't that good. But, hey, ....good enough for the job. Just took a few pictures, selected the one that looked the best, cut the background clutter out then posted it.

https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-4k-ultra-hd-handhelds/530626-sony-vcl-hg0872-review.html#post1964800 picture at post #13
cam was sitting on a drafting board that was sitting on the kitchen sink counter top in front of a window.No heavy-duty product photographer here. Nicer looking photo than the iPhone 6 would have been, I think.

Literally making popcorn right now.

Better start buying it in bullk. Youre gonna be here a while.

By when you have invested time and effort come to some sort of conclusion, satisfactory or otherwise, your hourly reward for your work will probably have fallen to 25c or less, not worth getting out of bed for unless it is pro--bono or you are a committed true believer in the project.

It would be interesting to read your contract. If they are so micro-managerially obsessed as to withold the camera files or post-production equipment if this was negotiated, then surely there is some level of contract breach even if only verbally undertaken.

I would be running like a junkyard rottweiler with dried blood down its chest was aftering me unless I risked being broken by lawsuit.

...Also, out of curiosity, the iphone looks good to shoot on if you want deep focus which will be good for mastershots under low light. But I don't like the expansion in the short focal length. Can the autofocus be locked as well, so it doesn't switch focus accidentally, or no?
Yes. Every serious mobile device shooter should learn how to lock exposure & focus.

1) pay the $15 USD and get FilmicPro. So worth it. Easy manual controls.
2) see #1.
3) can’t or don’t want to afford $15 app? Maybe it’s time to find something else to do. Your project sure doesn’t need a colorist! It needs color correction, not grading - there’s a difference!
4) really? Just click & hold on your desired focus target on the screen. The focus locks at that distance, and a small sun icon displays next to the focus box. Drag that up and down to adjust the now-locked exposure. You’ll have to do that every time you select a new focus. Until you get FilmicPro!

Yes. Every serious mobile device shooter should learn how to lock exposure & focus.

1) pay the $15 USD and get FilmicPro. So worth it. Easy manual controls.
2) see #1.
3) can’t or don’t want to afford $15 app? Maybe it’s time to find something else to do. Your project sure doesn’t need a colorist! It needs color correction, not grading - there’s a difference!
4) really? Just click & hold on your desired focus target on the screen. The focus locks at that distance, and a small sun icon displays next to the focus box. Drag that up and down to adjust the now-locked exposure. You’ll have to do that every time you select a new focus. Until you get FilmicPro!
Hey had a few question on FilmicPro. Have you noticed faces turn orange and lose detail? I'm guessing this is the iphone processing it before it gets to FimicPro to make the face look more desirable by smoothing and softening the face and giving it a fake tan. Wish I could stop it from doing it.

I paid for the log upgrade but I haven't found it very useful. I think it's already difficult to monitor exposure and prevent it from being over exposed. With log it makes it that much harder to properly expose because everything looks over exposed without a LUT.

Hey had a few question on FilmicPro. Have you noticed faces turn orange and lose detail? I'm guessing this is the iphone processing it before it gets to FimicPro to make the face look more desirable by smoothing and softening the face and giving it a fake tan. Wish I could stop it from doing it.

I paid for the log upgrade but I haven't found it very useful. I think it's already difficult to monitor exposure and prevent it from being over exposed. With log it makes it that much harder to properly expose because everything looks over exposed without a LUT.
I can’t be of much help on either. My (older) iPhone 6s and 1st gen iPad Pro 12.9 don’t seem to do this face processing.

I’ve not explored the log upgrade, but appreciate the report as I continue to refer a lot of people to FilmicPro. I suppose it’s like anything else with exposure; lots and lots of practice might help to train the eye. I’ve never had the benefit of using an in-camera LUT, have always had to do some estimating aided by a waveform monitor when using Canon’s WideDR and Log profiles.

But is the phone softening the face a bad thing necessarily though, since it's kind of like the same concept as actors wearing make up in a sense, in that it may just make them look better? I mean I took some phone photos of some actors for reference really and one of the actors who I was concerned may be too old for a part, looks like a good age in the phone, do to the softening, so I wonder therefore, if this feature is a good thing?

It depends on if the video is only going to be viewed on phones. It mightn't look so good if it's being viewed on a UHD monitor or TV.

Okay thanks. Well I viewed some footage on a monitor and seems to look the same as on the phone, or what would I be looking for that wouldn't look the same?

It's not really desirable, since you don't have any choice in the matter.

There has been a tradition to use diffusion on females, but how much is used (if any) depends on the fashions of the time, how old the female is and the type of diffusion can vary depending on the nature of the story.

With males, you tend to use no or very little diffusion. . .

Okay thanks, that makes sense. I've always thought it was good to use defusion on both and have both be good looking. Of course if you have scenes of a male and female moving around, the defusion doesn't work of course, if they end up crossing paths.

But with this new camera technology, you are adding the defusion with digital effects in camera, compared to old fashion make up. But I wonder, does it look too artificial in comparison to most people?

Rubbish ryan. HD meant makeup was visible, so the makeup people devoted HD makeup techniques. If the expensive makeup department could be replaced with post processing they would do it. Clearly, your makeup understanding is very, very low. You treat it as concealment when lots is additive, bringing out features. You can treat camera diffusion as a last resort. Lighting diffusion is very different. Hence why there are so many different types.

Make up isn't old fashioned, it solves many of the possible issues before the face, or other body parts hit the camera sensor,

Oh okay, it's just that the camera techniques seem to do a better job though in making a person look younger compared to make up though, unless it's just me? When I see actors with make up on, they are not that much younger looking, but when I see photos of people with the digital effects added, they look even younger, unless it's just me?

You don't always want people to look younger, in a drama you may want them to look like a character, or someone who's lived a life.

Social media uses digital effects a lot, but often they look fake or overdone.

Make up is also used to even out skim tone and reduce/remove any "shine", these being the most basic uses of makeup.

The makeup people will be smacking their foreheads here Ryan. Makeup is an art - big time. Spraying makeup is totally different to the old techniques. Some is really cutting edge.

I actually wrote an exam unit in prosthetic makeup in the early 2000s - an HND. I was a bit behind on technique so spent a week with an artist and learned so much.

Oh okay thanks. It's for the actors I have access to, there are two in particular I want to look younger. I can get make up artists and let them know that.

Also, even though I read how they make women look softer and men not, with lighting, I never understood that, because a lot of times, when this is done, the guy just ends up looking siginificantly older than the woman in characters who are suppose to be a couple, unless this is usually intentional in the lighting and make up?

Lighting cannot distinguish between sexes, but the essential component is the sharpness of shadows. The shadow from the sun has travelled 93 million miles so it's rays are almost parallel. When these impact on skin, the tiny hair follicles create shadows - like the surface of the moon. This makes the bigger 'holes' and emergent hairs on men typically show up more. Female facial hair is much smaller and less visible.Acne and spots become very visible on both sexes. Wrinkles and skin imperfections become more obvious. The most narrow lighting fixtures are things like Source 4s - not parallel, but they do create shadows. Fresnels create less, if they're also big - so a 12" Fresnel works better for softness than a 6" one. Move to panels and fixtures with big sheets of diffuser and the light's pretty soft.

If you were doing an interview with a male and a female and wanted soft and gentle for her, and harsh and revealing for the fella, you could do this with lighting. Much harder to do for a movie scene without lighting people and budget.

The snag Ryan, as usual, will be finding a makeup expert in Saskatoon - TV and movie makeup people are hardly common.

Hey Ryan - It’s really good to read that you’re jumping in to other areas besides just doig the “assigned” job! All these experiences will help with the overall knowledge of how stuff can be, or might be done. In the old days, one had to go through an apprenticeship in a craft and part of the learning was not only how to do certain things but also being exposed to so many things that weren’t taught in the classroom. All this exposure will help collect those little “nuggets”, not speaking of gold, per se, but useful bits knowledge about how something can, or might, be done, which in the end is akin to gold because that is how one derives their living.

Another way to say this, its learning via the road of hard knocks.
(well, kinda .... hard knocks is more about when there was a problem)

But, this is all what counts as EXPERIENCE!
And it is valuable!

Thank you everyone for all the advice on it! Well I could get someone from outside of where I live if that's better and just bring them here perhaps.

One make up and lighting example in a movie I did not understand is Casablanaca. They seemed to use much softer make up and lighting on Ingrid Bergman than Humphrey Bogart. This makes Bogart look significantly older than her but was this intentional?