I anticipate audio recording (no video) a small symposium in the near future. The planner hopes NOT to use any reinforcement, thus eliminating one significant variable. Presenters will (hopefully) be at a lectern so that aspect can be handled with with a lectern mic or a lav & recorder combination.

My challenge concerns recording questions from the audience. The goal is to capture them with "near broadcast quality." I feel there's a lot of advantage to close miking, as opposed to a shotgun aimed from the front of the room. The symposium organizer would prefer NOT to have a mic in the aisle. Besides, it's difficult to get EVERY questioner to walk over to the mic, especially since it won't be feeding any reinforcement.

I would like to avoid wireless because if it fails we can't shoot another take. We could simply pass around one or more handheld recorders (such as a Zoom H1n), but I am fearful of inadvertent button presses or "fiddling" by the audience.

I envision something that looks like a handheld mic, but with a built-in recording function that can be turned on and locked. Has anyone tried the Zoom M2? In theory it seems better than the H1n, partly because of 32-bit float. But reviews seem to have found some problems. Are there any other similar recorders?

Alternatively, I could use a Tascam DR-10X with the mic of my choice. Does anyone else make a similar product?

As always, TIA for any suggestions!

Hi Greg. After doing a few of these over the years, I think there’s a few things to consider before you decide what set-up and gear you use. Eg: How big is the room or hall? How many people will be in the audience? How are the room acoustics? How long is the show programmed to run? Will you be in view of the audience or in a room off to the side? How many copies does the client require, in what format?

If all these are within reason, then I think a multi-channel channel mixer and recorder with a lecturn mic and two or more audience mics set up on stands placed apart in suitable areas with marshals to direct people.

I found that if people realise they have to walk over to the mic, then it helps keep the impetuous ones in check with their ridiculous questions and comments. You could also run a copy before you edit the master, to give directly to the client. Good luck.
Cheers.

I agree with Allan on this. My setup would be wired lavs for panelists and a pair of dynamic mics on stands in either aisle that audience members can walk up to. Alternatively use wireless dynamics mics passed around. I've done many events ranging from wedding, musicals and seminars and that's the standard I'm accustom to. The problems from wireless is using cheap or old unreliable equipment or not thoroughly testing before using. I think this whole idea of using recorders is misguided. There no way to monitor what's going on and most of all the audio needs to be amplified so the panelist and audience can hear what's being said. There shouldn't be two parallel systems, you should be coordinating with the venue and record a feed from their sound board.

I have not been involved in recording this type of event although I have been a participant in a number of them in hotel ballrooms with over 100 attendees. Acoustics are not great in these rooms. I have seen wired mics on stands for people to use and also two or more runners that take the wired mics to the the people with questions. The nice thing about runners is that they can make sure the mic is held in the correct position.

Mics definitely need to go through a sound board so that the speaker and the rest of the audience can hear the questions. I have been in many events where the presenter and audience cannot hear the question.

X2 on Alans comments.

My first reaction is that it's too problematic with the audio side of things to be bothered with recording the Q&A section. Besides, if this isn't recorded then there is still something special for those who buy a ticket and attend rather than later watching the recordings online. It's important to keep the in-person attendance levels optimal so you don't lose the audience vibe of the event.

One good way to handle questions from the audience is for them to send a message through to a web service or similar dedicated SMS number, and have a staffer read out the ones that are suitable. (Not absolutely sure, but this might be one of those services - Slidio (https://www.slido.com/features-live-qa).) It also prevents the hijacking of question time by people "who have a very long question that fails to have a question mark at the end," if you know what I mean.

If you do have questions directly from the audience, have them line up at a nominated location to the side and ask the questions at a microphone stand. This ensures you get good clean audio via your feed from the audio mixer, in addition to a moderate incidental screening out of those whose questions weren't so important after all.

Andrew

Allan, Pete, Larrie, thank you for all your comments. Clearly there are still several issues to resolve. There will be a meeting soon on site, with the meeting sponsor and reps for the building. We will at least begin to hammer out the details.

I am still interested in a self-contained mic/recorder. It seems like such an obvious combination for very simple audio ENG etc. After all there are tons of such devices already: "voice recorders" from Olympus, Philips, and others. It's just that they have too many functions and buttons. The Zoom M2 seems to be a step in the direction of simplicity. If nothing else, in this particular scenario putting such a device on a stand would eliminate taping down cables and would allow the stand to be moved if necessary. So if anybody knows of a similar device, please let me know.

Cheers; and happy Fourth if that applies to you.
Greg

Andrew, I just found your response (the email notification had gone to my spam folder). My comments below address mostly your reply, but to an extent are relevant to the others who have responded.

My first reaction is that it's too problematic with the audio side of things to be bothered with recording the Q&A section. Besides, if this isn't recorded then there is still something special for those who buy a ticket and attend rather than later watching the recordings online. It's important to keep the in-person attendance levels optimal so you don't lose the audience vibe of the event.

Andrew, I think you're getting off the track here. Your comments are putting me in the role of event planner, rather than audio recordist. These decisions and concerns are not at all within my purview. Furthermore (not that it's any of my business) there will be attendees, and other interested persons not in attendance, from across the US and some from other countries. Do you think it would be fair to deprive them of an archive of the Q&A, just on the basis of increasing attendance. (Again, not my business, but them's the facts.)

One good way to handle questions from the audience is for them to send a message through to a web service or similar dedicated SMS number, and have a staffer read out the ones that are suitable. (Not absolutely sure, but this might be one of those services - Slidio.)

Again these things are not in my job description. The people who are planning this seminar know what they're doing, and they know how they want this event to proceed. I know them; I respect them and their planning. My only function is to meet or exceed their expectations in regard to the quality of the audio capture.

Subsequent to my previous postings, I've learned that there are expected to be ~ 25 to 30 attendees. So the additional SMS procedure is neither necessary nor appropriate. It's true that I didn't state this number earlier (I didn't know it earlier), but on the other hand I did not ask (in this forum) how the questions should be submitted. I asked specific technical questions related to audio recording gear. So I hope you won't fault me for not providing data I didn't have, which was irrelevant to my original inquiry.

After the on-site meeting, I'll post additional info for anyone who may be interested. I'm sure there will be more variables that I haven't mentioned yet because they're unknown at this time, and undoubtedly also some that I haven't even imagined.

Thanks again for everyone's past and future questions and suggestions about the audio capture.

Greg

From the shows I do, which are often recorded as well as needing a PA, there are a number of recurring issues and audience behaviours.

Most of the troublesome ones are the spiritualist shows - person on stage in touch with the spirit world, and the audience haveing a crucial role. These are really observations and will be the same in a non-PA situation, and worse, no PA actually alters the audiences interactions.

Historically - we had spiritualist with a headset mic, or sometimes handheld radio. The audience questions were heard by a small group around them, and often the person asking questions had to repeatedly ask them to speak up. Many could not or would not though lack of experience or terror.

The introduction of radio mics was a Godsend. Two techniques seem popular. 2 or more radio mics with a runner, who would identify the person who wanted to speak, and they would quickly get a mic to them. If the people (as they always were) were in the middle of the row, they handed the mic to the aisle seat occupant and passed it on, always slowly. Once the person had it, they would not speak into it, or hold it way too far away.

Radio mics are always less reliable than a cabled mic, but better than no mic. However, unless the person is comfy with mics, performance is grim.

Probably best is where the mic can be held by a sound trained person, who holds it in the right place until they finish with it. With cable management done properly and decent length cable it can be done.

The killer problem is that person at the podium needs to hear these people. The quietly spoken people will be difficult for the person 'in charge' or directing the event to interact with - so usually some of foldback is needed. if the room is small enough to not need this, and the participant numbers small enough. I'm assuming your space is small, so there are quite a few handheld recorders in a mic 'shape'. The snag of course is handing a zoom rather requires the people to speak into the right end, and while with the thing locked they probably can't press stop, you still stand the chance of physical noises rubbing, knocking and that kind of thing.

Shotguns from the front won't work. They are not magic - they need careful aiming and getting as close as possible. If video is not involved why not consider a long boom each side that sound people (with headphones) can quickly fly over the audience heads from the aisle towards the person speaking? I think I would do that - the simplest and least technical.

Paul,

Those are interesting and useful comments. I have never seen a spiritualist show ... in fact I've never heard of one. I thought spiritualists were something people read about in 19th century mystery stories.

This symposium will be in a building on a big corporate property where there is a lot of radio activity. With conventional radio I'd need to figure out who is in charge of freq. coordination. Assuming the estimate is correct, there will be ~30 attendees, so figure 30 laptops and 30 phones, maybe with Bluetooth. So I have been trying to avoid any sort of radio mics. But you're right: a radio mic is better than no mic. It would be better to miss a question or two, because of a few noise bursts, rather missing all the questions because of an unknown recorder failure. Maybe I should be thinking about a transmitter with an internal recorder.

PA is another issue. The planner thinks we won't need it in this venue. I won't form an opinion until I see the site next week. But ultimately it's the planner's call. I am not an all-around "sound man" for this event. I'm just an outside contractor doing audio recording. If I think there will be a big problem I'll offer some advice. But advising is a secondary function. My primary function is to provide the technology to get them the recording they want.

I actually like your idea about two boom operators. In many ways that would simplify things. But this is not a show with an audience. This is a serious business-oriented meeting with a predicted 30 attendees. I imagine the meeting planner would see booms and operators as adding a "circus" atmosphere to the event. I would like to solve this in a less conspicuous way.

Thanks again for the suggestions. Good food for thought.

Greg

Your comments are putting me in the role of event planner, rather than audio recordist.

Aye, I assumed you were the 'video guy' due to the nature of the forum. One of the things that frequently happens is "oh that's a technical problem ... the video guy will know how to fix it" and so we get called on regarding how to do all manner of things. To this extent, we can even become part of the pre-planning for how the event will run.

Andrew

Paul,

Those are interesting and useful comments. I have never seen a spiritualist show ... in fact I've never heard of one. I thought spiritualists were something people read about in 19th century mystery stories.

This symposium will be in a building on a big corporate property where there is a lot of radio activity. With conventional radio I'd need to figure out who is in charge of freq. coordination. Assuming the estimate is correct, there will be ~30 attendees, so figure 30 laptops and 30 phones, maybe with Bluetooth. So I have been trying to avoid any sort of radio mics. But you're right: a radio mic is better than no mic. It would be better to miss a question or two, because of a few noise bursts, rather missing all the questions because of an unknown recorder failure. Maybe I should be thinking about a transmitter with an internal recorder.

PA is another issue. The planner thinks we won't need it in this venue. I won't form an opinion until I see the site next week. But ultimately it's the planner's call. I am not an all-around "sound man" for this event. I'm just an outside contractor doing audio recording. If I think there will be a big problem I'll offer some advice. But advising is a secondary function. My primary function is to provide the technology to get them the recording they want.

I actually like your idea about two boom operators. In many ways that would simplify things. But this is not a show with an audience. This is a serious business-oriented meeting with a predicted 30 attendees. I imagine the meeting planner would see booms and operators as adding a "circus" atmosphere to the event. I would like to solve this in a less conspicuous way.

Thanks again for the suggestions. Good food for thought.

Greg
30 people is small event. When I read your initial post I assumed this was large auditorium with a stage and hundreds of people in attendance. In that case the easiest approach would be record only the panelist. Ask them to repeat the question that was asked or have the moderator do that if there is one. For example,
Q: what type of mic do you recommend?
P: I recommend a dynamic mic. or The question was...

In most situations the Q&A is secondary. For such a small event I would not spend too much on equipment unless you want to get into this type of work then I'd suggestion buying a good wireless dynamic mic system. They are a staple of this type of work. Despite your concerns about wireless it is the standard. It not to say wired mic aren't good you should have both if you want to provide event audio.

Hi Pete,

Yes, I'm getting info about the event in bits and pieces. I am obsessing about the Q&A because the meeting planner specifically wants it recorded, and said they'd rather not have the "question mics" on floor stands. They specifically mentioned passing around some handheld mics, so I feel I should at least give that some serious consideration. As far as wired mics, I have an assortment ranging from SM58s to AKG C-412s.

I worked at a conference center for several years and had enough headaches from our wireless mics. I'm sure the hardware has improved, but OTOH the bands have shrunk and are probably more congested. There's also some nearby construction work, often using unlicensed UHF radios (like the ubiquitous $25.00 Baofeng) and I'm apprehensive. Has anyone tried any of the 2.4GHz mics in an environment with lots of phones and laptops? They sound tempting but I don't know how safe they are in a room full of other 2.4GHz signals. I especially like the concept of the wireless xmtr with an internal backup recorder; not sure whether they're available in a handheld version. Has anyone tried these?

Having the presenter repeat the questions might be a good alternative for this event. I have seen that work well, although I've also seen it deteriorate when a few people start asking questions loudly enough to be heard by everyone. If I don't have a magical technical solution, I might suggest this to the planner. But again, I don't know how important it is to have exact recordings of every question that's asked.

Q: what type of mic do you recommend?
P: I recommend a dynamic mic.
Not a double button carbon mic???

Thanks for all your comments.
Greg

Hi Greg I don’t know about the latest wireless rigs, but if you’re going to use them, maybe go to the venue a couple of days in advance and listen on open headphones for a while, for any local interference.

Also check out the power board. We’re 240 volts in Australia, many years ago the guy who taught me had a range of various size nails in his kit and when we recorded audience participation quiz shows in ancient community halls, he’d replace the old fuse in the power board with a suitable nail because with all our gear, we drew a lot of power.

I was 16 and my most important job was, after the recording to replace the original fuse, so some poor sod didn’t come along and burn the place down. Great days.
Cheers.

Hi guys..................

Greg may, and I do mean MAY, have answered his own question on this one, if the technology can be but bent to suit. On this subject I'm a complete "know nothing", not being an owner of one of the confounded things, so give me a bit of latitude before launching the lions.


30 attendees, so figure 30 laptops and 30 phones

Can you (they, someone) use those 30 phones incorporating mics and transmitters to organize a 30 member conference call for any questions and answers? The sound quality of modern phones is quite exceptional as I can attest listening to my other half's conversations from the other side of the room when she's got it on speaker.

Discuss.


Regards,


CS

Hi guys..................

Greg may, and I do mean MAY, have answered his own question on this one, if the technology can be but bent to suit. On this subject I'm a complete "know nothing", not being an owner of one of the confounded things, so give me a bit of latitude before launching the lions.




Can you (they, someone) use those 30 phones incorporating mics and transmitters to organize a 30 member conference call for any questions and answers? The sound quality of modern phones is quite exceptional as I can attest listening to my other half's conversations from the other side of the room when she's got it on speaker.

Discuss.


Regards,


CS
You could set up a zoom meeting and if they all muted their speakers but 30 connections could overwhelm their internet wifi...
I do record remote meeting and it does pretty well for voice. Still all in one room seems like something could easily go wrong.

Oh, yeah, guys, I didn't mention that some of the presenters are off site and will be coming in via Zoom. Getting the audio out of the Zoom computer seems straightforward compared to this Q&A jazz. Chris, it's an interesting idea, but I don't have the courage to try a 30-person Zoomer. I wouldn't want to take credit if the whole thing went south.

Allan, that's a great story. I can relate. When I was just out of high school, I got involved with a community theatre group. They had bought an old frame church building to use as their venue. The entire building had 120/240 volt service with a total of four screw-in 15-amp fuses. Just before the curtain went up, my job was to run downstairs to the "lobby/lounge" and unplug the refrigerator, cold drink dispenser, and popcorn popper. Otherwise, when the stage lights came up, the fuses would blow, causing an unscripted blackout. After two or three shows, I moved on to other things. The group did not fill my vacant position. Instead of the "load balancing" scheme, they just put pennies in the fuse sockets, allowing for infinite amperage. And yes, the theatre eventually burned to the ground. The cause was determined to be "defective wiring." I guess the fire inspector never found the pennies.

Show biz ... gotta love it!

Ha hah, great times. We’re off topic but here’s another one. I wasn’t old enough for a drivers licence, and one night the senior engineers wife rang to say he was ill, could I record the 2 shows tomorrow?

I’d seen enough, he even let me record a show, so I said yes. The gear truck came for me early next morning and we went to a community hall just out of Sydney. We gradually set all the gear up, laid all the cables out, 2 big audience speakers with 2 mics, then the mixer and 2 tape recorders, but my position was very small.

The only place I could put the big power amp. for the audience speakers, was in the halls kitchen sink. I went out to the truck and got a big spanner to lock the taps off, the audience and talent arrived and off we went.

About 1/2 way in the first show, an elderly committee lady decided she wanted a cup of tea, not being able to turn a tap on she found her own big spanner, turned a tap on and flooded my amp. There was a loud crump! the hall main fuses blew, all the lights went out, my recorders stopped dead and the quiz master and his attractive assistant stood staring out into the dark hall. I managed to fix the problem and we started again. After that I recorded more shows and that’s how I learned all the tricks.

At Xmas 1957, the big bosses presented me with a new Swiss Breitling watch and I still wear it today.
Maybe we should start a thread here, so others can relate their war stories?

As to wireless mics, we use the Rode Wireless Go II and have good success in a crowded spectrum. One of the nice thing about it is that each transmitter can record an internal safety track while still sending to the receiver. The batteries last for several hours of continuous use, https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1622642-REG/rode_wigoii_wireless_go_ii_compact.html/BI/2855/KBID/3801

Rode also makes a handheld adapter for the transmitter, https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1548069-REG/rode_interviewgo_interview_go_handheld.html/BI/2855/KBID/3801

I have a conference kit - it's too small for what you want, but I have 12 identical cheap electret condensers and individual round table stands - connected to an X32 using just the mite buttons. Plenty of ins and outs and with a dozen people and a good direct line of sight to them, it's easy - plus you can always stuff gates and things on the channels and let the thing automate itself. I guess it would scale up to the maximum input quite well?

The other thing you could do is hire in a proper conference system, where each delgate gets a little panel, where they can control volume into an ear piece and a button to make their mic live. These can handle up to parliament size conferences. Might be expensive to buy but hire costs are usually expensed anyway.

I have a conference kit - it's too small for what you want, but I have 12 identical cheap electret condensers and individual round table stands - connected to an X32 using just the mite buttons. Plenty of ins and outs and with a dozen people and a good direct line of sight to them, it's easy - plus you can always stuff gates and things on the channels and let the thing automate itself. I guess it would scale up to the maximum input quite well?

The other thing you could do is hire in a proper conference system, where each delgate gets a little panel, where they can control volume into an ear piece and a button to make their mic live. These can handle up to parliament size conferences. Might be expensive to buy but hire costs are usually expensed anyway.

EDIT

The spirituallist things are very popular here, and extremely odd - and while there is always an element of showmanship, sometimes they just get weird.

The person on stage makes contact with the spirit world (yes - people believe this) and they talk to the audience. If you want to see how they manage the mics in the audience
https://youtu.be/CkikRPd8H88

I listened to only the first three minutes. After that I muted the audio. I couldn't listen to any more of the nonsense. I'm rather incensed by the thought of this guy profiting from other peoples' grief. That doesn't even address the issues of authenticity, honesty, etc.

However, I saw the lady in the stalls with the wireless hand mic. Of course it sounded great. I did not see any other audience members using hand mic, nor any passing around of same. I'm not sure how that lady came to have it in the first place, but of course she's a member of the cast, and that's not relevant to the audio quality. Of course that venue is completely different from the one I'm discussing.

At any rate, thanks for posting. It clarifies what goes on at these shows. Show business ... wow!

Yeah, it's all a bit cringey and irky. "Someone between 70 and 71." Yeah, 75 will be close enough.

I can guarantee you if he is communicating (as a medium) with a spirit, it's not a dearly departed human spirit. But that's another issue and well outside the scope of mere video and audio stuff.

Whilst the audience member appears to have the mic already, they may well have edited out the fumbly part of her raising her hand in response and having the mic handed to her. I'd certainly edit it out for brevity in a recorded (not live, boom-boom) programme.

Andrew

Mic runners in aisles, but the gaps “hang on wait for the mic” and for the camera to find them have been edited out.

We have some legal stuff. Every show MUST contain words and a warning that the event is for entertainment purposes. But the audiences are absolutely convinced. While the event is on, the crew on headsets are very vocal about what is going on. There was a famous one who had a man feeding her info via an earpiece and she got caught out badly and outed. Colin fry was a genuinely nice man, and I never saw him preparing to cheat or doing anything I could identify as dodgy. Sadly he passed away suddenly, so they’re not immune.

My own sound man was usually vocal about it all being a clever scam, praying on susceptible people, until the time when his voice popped up on comms. “That’s my wife and daughter!” Horror in his voice as he didn’t know they were coming, and has even paid for their seats. It got worse. The spiritualist suddenly said he was in contact with aunty Joan who passed the year before, and she had a message congratulating the daughter on her good news. Ian was shocked. This daughter had told the, she was pregnant only a few hours before and they’d told nobody! I’m science based, and hopefully intelligent and I would love to say these things are 100% fake, and I’ve seen too many weird things to say they are. Clearly there are old frauds and showmanship, but some things they reveal are too weird to work out.

The strangest thing was when chatting with Colin fry, he started humming a song. The stranglers, golden brown. A tricky song from the 70s. We chatted about how hard it was to play with the extra note every few bars. Next day I went to a funeral, and the coffin was carried in to that song. The family said it was my friends favourite song, how strange.