Sorry if the question has been asked several times before but i didn't find what i'm looking for.

Simple question, answer may not be.

I need the best value mic (high-end) primary for indoor situation (dialogue) that will be used along with my Panasonic HVX-200 (not sure if recording sound separetely is really best...)

I'm looking for shotgun and wireless kit also

I would like a very natural and warm sound.
Shotgun must be very sensitive and very focused to avoid all sound except the target.
I have actually a Azden SGM-2x which i don't like very much. I would like to upgrade and compare to the Azden and say "Wow! that's fabulous!"

Thank you for your help

One of the film industry standards for indoor dialog is the Schoeps CMC641 hypercardoid. A standard shotgun is the Sennheiser 416 but Schoeps has recently introduced a shotgun that looks like it'll be a very strong contender.

So this add to my list of prospects:


- Sennheiser MKH-416
- Sennheiser MKH-70
- Neumann KMR82/KM82i
- Sanken CS5
- Schoeps CMC641


I don't even know the retail price of each.. I actually don't know much regarding high-end mic nor i do know if i should consider recording separately (DAT?) or use the HVX-200 (48kHz 16-bit 4-channel PCM audio (2 XLRs)

One thing is sure, as an audiophile i'm very picky regarding sound. Probably more than image and all that high definition hype...

So this add to my list of prospects:


- Sennheiser MKH-416
- Sennheiser MKH-70
- Neumann KMR82/KM82i
- Sanken CS5
- Schoeps CMC641


I don't even know the retail price of each.. I actually don't know much regarding high-end mic nor i do know if i should consider recording separately (DAT?) or use the HVX-200 (48kHz 16-bit 4-channel PCM audio (2 XLRs)

One thing is sure, as an audiophile i'm very picky regarding sound. Probably more than image and all that high definition hype...

For Schoeps and Sennheiser you're looking at about $1500 to $2000 US each.

Thanks Steve


Any other comments from someone else about these mics or other similar ?

Thanks to some good advise on this site I went for the Sennheiser 416. Not cheap at £uk800 + another £uk400 for the cradle,windshield,pistol grip,boom,etc...

But what a mic! It's sound quality blows anything else I've used in the past out of the water.

Bear in mind that the preferred practice for interiors is a hypercardoid while outdoors it's a shotgun. If you're in a large, open studio or soundstage situation environmental reflections are less an issue you can use a shotgun like the Sennheiser 416 but for smaller interiors such as those where most videos are shot, the bass coloration of off-axis sounds makes it less desirable. Shotguns are less directional at bass frequencies than they are in the mid to higher ranges. Hypercardoids are more evenly directional in frequency but don't have quite the "reach" of a shotgun. Ideally you'd have both in your arsenal so you could pick the one that works best for the particular conditions of the shot.

Thanks Steve


Any other comments from someone else about these mics or other similar ?


I have both the Senn. 416 and Schoeps MK41. The Schoeps
when equipped with a CUT 1 roll off filter will rock your world.
About $2K. You can't do better IMO, BUT Schoeps mics are subject
to high humidty and will 'motorboat' before the Sennheisers.

I don't think the Sanken CS5 belongs in that group. Isn't it a stereo shotgun? Perhaps you meant the CS3e?

Bear in mind that the preferred practice for interiors is a hypercardoid while outdoors it's a shotgun. If you're in a large, open studio or soundstage situation environmental reflections are less an issue you can use a shotgun like the Sennheiser 416 but for smaller interiors such as those where most videos are shot, the bass coloration of off-axis sounds makes it less desirable. Shotguns are less directional at bass frequencies than they are in the mid to higher ranges. Hypercardoids are more evenly directional in frequency but don't have quite the "reach" of a shotgun. Ideally you'd have both in your arsenal so you could pick the one that works best for the particular conditions of the shot.

Then, i will go with the hypercardoid (or "hypercardioid, not sure what is the right spelling.. haha) because i really DON'T want that bass coloration.

When you say "dont quite the "reach" of a shotgun" is that mean that difference is huge regarding this particularity ? Or only in extreme situations ? I'm looking to work in standard rooms (houses, appartement, etc..) not large studio, is the reach will be enough with hypercardoid ?

I have another question regarding bass coloration and unwanted sound reflections: is it usual that, sometimes, room is acousticly modified (anechoic material) in order to avoid problems ? Or usually people tend to make their best according to natural room sounding ?

Just wondering how far we can go (in low-moderate budget thinking) to get the best sound recording..

Thanks for all your inputs.

Jon

Our forum compatriot Ty Ford has an excellent video clip on his web site that he's made available for download and that illustrates the differences between a shotgun and a hypercardioid (specifically the Senheiser 416 and Schoeps 641) including the working distance and bass colouration issues. www.tyford.com and look in the audio/video archives.

I have another question regarding bass coloration and unwanted sound reflections: is it usual that, sometimes, room is acousticly modified (anechoic material) in order to avoid problems ? Or usually people tend to make their best according to natural room sounding ?

You can put up sound blankets in a room to cut down on its reverb.

Generally you should try to avoid noisy locations. Scout ahead of time, and turn off noise-generating equipment.

A boom is typically the preferred way to grab sound since you can put it close to the talent's mouth. A wireless lav will get closer (and hence even less reverb), but they don't sound quite as good.

You can treat most rooms if you have enough time, but in practical situations, it isn't always feasible. On nearly every shoot I've worked on (where we've done sound for other people's productions) the DP wouldn't let us put down enough blankets because they screwed up his shot. Time is always an issue too. They never want to wait for sound.

Our forum compatriot Ty Ford has an excellent video clip on his web site that he's made available for download and that illustrates the differences between a shotgun and a hypercardioid (specifically the Senheiser 416 and Schoeps 641) including the working distance and bass colouration issues. www.tyford.com and look in the audio/video archives.

Steve, this video

http://homepage.mac.com/tyreeford/.Public/Video/Ty%20Ford%20Mic%20Tutorial%20VIdeo.mp4

Is what i call HELPFUL :-)

Now i do understand...

Thanks to Ty Ford.


Still, i am not sure how to use hypercardioid (such the Schoeps as shown) if i can't use it from, let say 3-4 ft.

But i definitively can't use the shotgun in normal small-medium rooms unless i control the low frequencies reflections...

The thing is: i DO like the long reach of the shotgun...

Well. Sound recording is much more complicated that what i thought... haha

I just posted a message in another thread "Condenser mic vs shotgun" you may find helpful.

If you want to learn more about the differences between the various pickup or "Polar" patterns, visit the Audio Technica or Shure web sites for their "How To..." guides. Understanding when to use a hypercardioid rather than a cardioid can make a real difference, and the biggest difference is behind the mic, not in front of it.

Indoors, most shotgun mics pick up reflections in all frequency bands, not just the lows. The 416 in particular is nearly omnidirectional from the low-mids down. Many professionals have switch over to either the Sanken CS-3e or the CS-1. Sanken mics have unusually good off-axis rejection across the entire frequency band.

3-4 feet is an unusually long distance for any boom mic situation other than news or wide shots, unless you're in an acoustically treated space such as a stage or studio. Usually, picture framing is controlled to allow closer micing for better sound, not to mention a more visualy informative picture.

What are you looking for in a wireless kit, and what is your budget range?

What are you looking for in a wireless kit, and what is your budget range?


About 4-5k for all the sound part.

Because i don't know yet how the HVX-200 will be regarding sound recording, i don't know if double recording will be needed (would prefer not)

Lectrosonics is a well respected - here a link to several representative systems on Trew Audio's web site...
http://trewaudio.com/catalog/subcat162.htm

Unless Panasonic has used really poor converters (I doubt it) then the HVX should sound excellent, as it's a PCM format, 48k/16bit.
If you've got that much to spend on a wireless and mics along with your storage for the HVX, you might as well get a high end system from the get-go. Plan on a good hypercardioid, omni lavs, and save the shotgun for last, IMO, unless you're doing a lot of outdoor shooting, in which case a good shotgun is indispensable. Are you a one-man show? Or will you have a boom op? A good boom like the K-Tek Avalon series is wonderful to have, and you'll quickly appreciate it's light weight. They have good shockmounts too.
Get quality cables; Mogami and Canare are two brands hard to beat.
Don't forget some kind of carrying system to pack your audio in.
Small things like furry, rubber bands/hairballs, soft leather, bandaids, etc are all good to carry in case you need to attach cables to other devices.

About boompole... I am not sure if i miss something here. What is the difference between a 100-150$ boom (ex: Gitzo) and a K-Tek that can be 400-600$ ?

Besides weight and variable lenght, what is the differences ?

Unless Panasonic has used really poor converters (I doubt it) then the HVX should sound excellent, as it's a PCM format, 48k/16bit.



Audiophiles says that your system is good as your weakest component. I wonder if the HVX200 will be the weakest component in this case. And if so... What difference will it really made v.s. double recording ?

Just asking myself if a 2k mic is not an overkill for this camera's abilities.

Audiophiles says that your system is good as your weakest component. I wonder if the HVX200 will be the weakest component in this case. And if so... What difference will it really made v.s. double recording ?

Just asking myself if a 2k mic is not an overkill for this camera's abilities.

Well, I'll put it this way then...I doubt that the Panasonic will be any better or worse than any other DV camcorder, or any other camcorder, period. If you want better conversion than what most camcorders offer, then I'd get a second record device, and plan on syncing it in post.
A 2K mic will generally sound better than a 200.00 mic when plugged into any recording device, regardless of the quality of the device. 48k/16bit is the standard, and while I've not heard the Panny yet, I'd imagine that it's as good as any other cam in it's class. Which means for most things, it will sound great. I wouldn't use it for a rock concert or a symphony, but I'd never use cam audio in those situations anyway.

Regarding the boompole, not only weight, but strength, and quiet. The more expensive poles are much more quiet, better balanced (usually) and can have the cable internalized, which is often a nice time and hassle saver. Additionally, the graphite is much tougher than aluminum, and is more comfortable to hold, IMO.

I'd agree w/ Douglass on all points and add that weight & balance are the major differentials in boom poles, both in performance and price. As the boom operator, would you rather hold a 10 pound weight over your head for 10 minutes, or a 3 pound weight?

The choices for wireless are very broad (and expensive for the good stuff), but you have to know what your application is first. Will you have a sound person or be one-man? Will they be for microphones (how many? Lav, handheld or shotgun?), or for a wireless link from mixer to camera? These decisions can dramatically change your budget and your choice of radios.